Will Dalinar learn how Kaladin became a slave, in WOR?

[TomR]

Selfish? You think Amaram is selfish?

“I am trained in the sword,” Amaram said, “and am accustomed to plate. It will serve Alethkar best if I bear the Shards.”

Where in here is Amaram being selfish? 

If Amaram's primary concern was that the best fighter get the Blade and Plate, he'd insist Kaladin take it.  Kaladin, after all, defeated a Shardbearer despite being underequipped for the fight, when Amaram himself could not (you ellided over it, but he even adds a fear that Kaladin would change his mind as part of his reasoning for framing Kaladin as a traitor).  Alternatively, he could've held a dueling contest among his soldiers.  The fact that the reasoning he gives fails on its face shows that he's lying to himself.  Amaram wants the Shards; he feels that he deserves them, so he uses a weak justification to get them.

 

Kaladin picks out a physical trait and assumes everyone who has it is morally inferior to himself. For no better reason than EYE color. I call that racist.

Sure.  I'd say Amaram has the opposite prejudice, though, as do most other lighteyes (even Shallan has been shown to be uncomfortable around strange darkeyes), which I think is going to have an effect on the original topic.  Amaram orders the deaths of the darkeyes to keep them from talking, but he trusts the lighteyes doing the killing to keep their mouths shut (naively, apparently; the slaver who initially delivers Kaladin to the warcamps states he knows the real reason Kaladin has his slave brand, but he must pretend otherwise, implying someone talked).  Amaram's a product of his culture; I think it's safe to say he would've acted differently if it were a lighteyes who defeated the Shardbearer, or if Kaladin's men had been lighteyed.  In fact, we hear about one of Sadeas's lighteyed archers winning Shards on the battlefield, despite Sadeas's known ruthlessness and desire for a Blade.  I don't think it's a stretch to extrapolate that the darkeyed-ness of the soldiers Amaram murdered and the one he enslaved affected his decision.  Darkeyes are treated differently; it's more than just class, it goes deeper.  Therefore, if Kaladin doesn't overreact when he first sees Amaram (and he knows Amaram's meant to come to the Plains, so I think he might be able to deal with it), I expect him to stay quiet for at least most of this book.  He should know what weight the word of a darkeyed soldier will carry, and he and Dalinar don't know each other well enough yet to outweigh Dalinar's apparent longstanding friendship with Amaram.

 

Perhaps I wasn't clear. I agree it's possible to define murder as intentionally killing someone for non-self defensive reasons. I just don't think it matters if someone did something accidentally or intentionally (except in judging whether it was justified), only that they did something. If I had to choose between someone killing one person intentionally and and someone killing two people unintentionally, I would choose the first option.

That's a false choice.  Accidental death is in essence unpredictable, and trying to compare it to intentional murder is specious.

 

But, as Amaram says, people wouldn't believe that Kaladin did it willingly. People would have thought Amaram tortured Kaladin into doing it. I think this could lead to issues, like Amaram being investigated and other things that might have gotten in the way of his goals.

 

Amaram was the highest-ranking lighteyes left in his princedom, no one would have investigated him.  There may have been rumors, but so what?  This is not a democracy, nor a republic.  We're dealing with a high-dahn member of a landed aristocracy here, and one in legal possession of a Shardblade-- "what people say" would have zero effect on his rank (remember, Sadeas would have gotten away with betraying Dalinar despite everyone knowing what really happened; Alethi value that sliver of doubt).  Weighing a few possible rumors against murder and enslavement and deciding that whole killing people thing was the better option is not the product of a reasonable mind.  If Amaram came up with that after logically weighing his options, I'd say he isn't actually fit to lead.

 

All in all, I think Amaram is likely to be a complicated character.  We know so little about him that I wouldn't gamble on his status either way (Dalinar's judgment is suspect; he trusted Sadeas after all, and most of Dalinar's changes have occurred while he's been out on the Shattered Plains, while Amaram hasn't been there, so I won't count the friendship as a mark for or against Amaram).  I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up playing a major role in the fight against Odium.  This particular choice, though?  I don't expect to see anything that actually justifies it.  If we do discover that Amaram had access to a prophecy stating that if he didn't get the Shardplate and Blade, all sixteen Shards of Adonalsium would come to Roshar and destroy the planet, or whatever scenario, sure, I'd say he made the right call.  However, based on the text we have so far, I expect we'll find that this is a lapse, a time when Amaram's more banal nature surfaced to provide a justification for wrong action, and that he had the option to take a more ethical action (given pretty much any ethic I can think of -- virtue, deontological, teleological) if he'd just thought things through.

 

Also, speculating here, it wouldn't surprise me to find out his advisor/pet Stormwarden is working for the Ghostbloods Amaram's fighting against.

Edited January 22, 2014 by TomR

[Crysanja]

so guess with Sly asking Kaladin to tell Dalinar about his (KR) abilities, this will all come out.

you can be sure that Navani will ask questions about his way/life until she gets most of it, if not all of it.

She will be aided by Sly, who will not accept lies.

 

 

the question is now how many KR there will be in a short time. otherise each male Lighteyes wants to know,

how to bekome one.

with Kaladin one of the very few KR there are, his storry will be known by everyone?

 

 

how much will Dalinar and Navani disclose to the others? how fast can Kaladin look/be a KR?

Kaladin ablities are kind of simmelar/same as Szeths - this could be an issue.

 

how much power does Vorinism have to discredit new KR?

if the need for KR is much higher, more ppl are inclined to belive Kaladins storry.

[Moogle]

 

If Amaram's primary concern was that the best fighter get the Blade and Plate, he'd insist Kaladin take it.  Kaladin, after all, defeated a Shardbearer despite being underequipped for the fight, when Amaram himself could not (you ellided over it, but he even adds a fear that Kaladin would change his mind as part of his reasoning for framing Kaladin as a traitor).  Alternatively, he could've held a dueling contest among his soldiers.  The fact that the reasoning he gives fails on its face shows that he's lying to himself.  Amaram wants the Shards; he feels that he deserves them, so he uses a weak justification to get them.

 

I am less than confident in your conclusions here. You seem to imply that skill is all that matters. That's not what I've seen. Amaram doesn't think of himself as particularly skillful, nor do you have to be with Shards. You could stick a pampered nobleman who's never seen a battle into Shardplate and give him a Shardblade and he'd still be a one man army. Furthermore, Kaladin's skill is with a spear, not a sword. Some of his skill will transfer over (footwork), but there's still a difference between the fighting styles. Skill is irrelevant to who should carry the Shards.

 

What's important for Amaram is that he's part of a group doing something important and that with the Shards they can accomplish their goal(s) more effectively. Yes, he could have recruited Kaladin, but I imagine there might be issues with secret groups constantly recruiting those they don't know if they can trust.

 

 If we do discover that Amaram had access to a prophecy stating that if he didn't get the Shardplate and Blade, all sixteen Shards of Adonalsium would come to Roshar and destroy the planet, or whatever scenario, sure, I'd say he made the right call.  However, based on the text we have so far, I expect we'll find that this is a lapse, a time when Amaram's more banal nature surfaced to provide a justification for wrong action, and that he had the option to take a more ethical action (given pretty much any ethic I can think of -- virtue, deontological, teleological) if he'd just thought things through.

 

If you're willing to accept that if Amaram had such a prophecy he'd be justified in his actions, then I'm satisfied and have no real argument against you. It's those who aren't at least partially utilitarian that I was questioning in this thread. Also, I'm fairly confident that a teleological/consequentialist system works quite nicely for Amaram's worldview, though of course it depends on what exactly he did with the Shards all these years.

 

I feel that perhaps some people don't like Amaram (I don't blame them) and so they immediately call him 'selfish' and other nasty words to get that across, sort of like most Westeners calling terrorists 'cowards' post 9/11 (despite the fact that they literally blew themselves up, which is an act that would take extreme courage). I'm fine with people calling Amaram names (and terrorists, for that matter, since I generally don't like people who kill lots of other people) and condemning his actions, I just wish they'd be a little more accurate in their word choices, same with people calling terrorists 'cowards'.

 

Amaram had to spend hours being convinced by Restares, and was still guilty and defensive over what he was doing. He didn't just murder Kaladin, which would have been the safe course of action. He didn't look at the Shards greedily, or hold them covetously. In the years since he took the Shards, he hasn't exactly been seeking glory or personal fame. If he had, he would have arrived at the Shattered Plains very soon. I don't believe he's selfish, or rather that he's significantly more selfish than the average person. We haven't seen enough to judge that.

 

We saw him in like two chapters. First was the one where he was recruiting people and making speeches and generally wasn't doing anything (though we learned that he lied/forgot about Tien, so black mark to him there). The other time was after extraordinary circumstances where he almost died and had to decide what to do with the some of the most valuable objects on Roshar after being convinced of a course of action by someone else. Neither represent Amaram terribly well.

 

My position is neutral (leaning slightly towards Amaram being a terrible person) at this point in time, because it matters what Amaram did with the Shards. I won't condemn or praise him until I know what exactly he intended to do with the Shards and whether he did it. We simply haven't seen enough of Amaram to reliably determine his character traits, in my mind.

Edited January 22, 2014 by Moogle

[The Count]

I think calling Amaram selfish is maybe the wrong word.

 

But in the framework that Brandon has set up in tWoK. Amaram's actions toward Kaladin are most definitely intended to be 'evil' ones (narratively he permanently scars the hero and sells him into slavery). May evil it too strong, but the scene plays out to imply strongly that Amaram made the wrong choice and, at least partly, knows it.

 

In subsequent books we may find out that his motivation was well intentioned enough, in fact that would make much sense given the ethos which the book promotes as 'good' - journey before destination and all that.

 

The actions of Amaram are meant to reinforce the journey that Kaladin is going though as he becomes a Radiant by providing a counterpoint.

 

Amaram, however guilty he feels, still decides that the end (gaining the shards / his mission) justifies the means (murder and enslavement). The lessons that Kaladin is intended to learn is the opposite (that the means are just as, or even more important).

 

This theme is repeated again with the Alethi Highprinces (embodied within Sadeas) vs Dalinar who is going though a similar journey.

 

Under this moral framework presented in the book, Amaram's actions will always be considered (for want of a better word) evil, even if his intentions were ultimately to use the shards for good.

 

As for weather Amaram is a bad person or not, I agree we do not know enough about him. I think his actions and words when he sees Kaladin again will be most instructive on this point.

[JesseQ]

For me it is really difficult to find a redeeming quality in Amaram; killing defenseless people in my view is cowardly. I guess the one thing I can say is that at least the only individuals he murdered were soldiers as opposed to civilian men, women and children. That said, this is a militaristic society and it would be difficult for someone like me to relate to how Amaram feels especially when I am unaware of the knowledge he holds and what his exact purpose is for his heinous acts.

 

Moogle, it’s good that we can find some common ground in our appreciation for Brandon Sanderson’s work because I’m fairly certain we are at opposing ends when it comes to real world views and philosophies.

 

Also, as someone who has been closely affected by more than one suicide I can tell you that the only way I could possibly view ending your own life as an act of courage is in the defense of the life of another. If a person takes their own life and drags thousands of men, women and children with them then I’m going to go ahead and categorize that as an act of cowardice. Not only are they ensuring they do not have to face their victims or the families of their victims, they’ve likely convinced themselves to ignore the reality of what they are about to do; deceiving themselves into believing that what they do is for their perceived greater good (similar to Amaram). As far as I’m concerned attacking those who have no idea that it is coming and no possible way of defending themselves is an act of cowardice just as punching 2 year old would be cowardly. Buck up to someone who sees you coming and has the ability fight back, otherwise it is cowardly. So, with that said, count me on board with those who see the 911 terrorists as cowards. I realize you're not defending them; just making the case that the word 'cowardice' doesn't fit. I'm just disageeing with you.

[Moogle]

For me it is really difficult to find a redeeming quality in Amaram; killing defenseless people in my view is cowardly.

 

Then perhaps it's just that we have different definitions on what it means to be cowardly. I see being cowardly as being unable to do things that scare you, in contrast to courage which is the ability to do things that frighten you. Amaram is not afraid of battle or killing armed enemies, so far as I know, so his killing defenseless people seems irrelevant.

 

Moogle, it’s good that we can find some common ground in our appreciation for Brandon Sanderson’s work because I’m fairly certain we are at opposing ends when it comes to real world views and philosophies.

 

I highly disagree. We'd both help a lost child find his parents, would help a person who was bleeding out on the street get to the hospital, and would defend people being mugged, or at least I hope you would. We're incredibly similar, and the parts where we disagree tend to be contrived situations like the trolley problem and the correct decision in fantasy worlds where objects of immense power are traded around frequently in the form of swords. I suppose we probably prefer different political parties, but these are ultimately pretty small things.

 

Also, as someone who has been closely affected by more than one suicide I can tell you that the only way I could possibly view ending your own life as an act of courage is in the defense of the life of another.

Death is scary. I certainly don't want to die. I think willing to face that and kill yourself to help your people (as I imagine the terrorists felt) is difficult to call cowardly, though we might differ here. Even if they had a belief in an afterlife, I think there would still be some doubt and it would require courage to face.

 

Thank you for being reasonable and polite and recognizing that I don't support terrorism. I was worried someone would take my message the wrong way.

[Aleksiel]

Guys, you seem to forget that Amaram didn't just sell Kaladin as a slave and killed his comrades. Amaram also used young and untrained boys like Tien on the battlefield as bait.

 

He may say all this is perfectly justified and claim to be honorable, but to me hе is a hypocrite and a terrible person. It would be interesting to see what will happen when Amaram and Kaladin meet.  I don't believe neither of them will share the story with Dalinar. Or Amaram will come up with lies and Kaladin won't trust Dalinar with the truth or simply will think there is no point in telling. Though I hope Dalinar pushes the topic and somehow finally gains Kaladin's trust.

[Moogle]

Guys, you seem to forget that Amaram didn't just sell Kaladin as a slave and killed his comrades. Amaram also used young and untrained boys like Tien on the battlefield as bait.

 

As opposed to using young and trained boys like Kaladin to fight? Would it really matter to you if Tien was a few years older and had some training before dying horribly? It wouldn't to me. Someone dying is terrible to me, young or old, trained in fighting or not. Amaram forcing a draft (and Roshone volunteering up Tien) is the issue. Actually, scratch that, the Alethi drive for war and their border skirmishes is the main issue.

 

Also of note, Amaram didn't order Tien be used as bait. That was this rather scummy guy:

Varth looked down at him, then at the bodies of the three dead messenger boys. “You bastard,” Kaladin hissed. “You put them in front.”

“You work with what you have,” Varth said, nodding to his team, then pointing at a fortified position. “If they give me men who can’t fight, I’ll find another use for them.” He hesitated as his team marched away. He seemed regretful. “Gotta do what you can to stay alive, son. Turn a liability into an advantage whenever you can. Remember that, if you live.”

 

Amaram can be blamed for not keeping a promise entirely, though. His 'promise' was:

“I’ll make the lad a runner boy for a year or two,” Amaram promised. “He won’t be in combat. It is the best I can do. Every body is needed in these times.”

 

Tien was a messenger boy for a few months, not a few years. Not quite a huge broken promise, particularly given that Tien was put in forces that were meant for backup when things were truly dire (so they probably wouldn't see any fighting), and he was only taken out of being a messenger boy because recruitment was down and they kept fighting stupid skirmishes and killing more people off.

 

And, of course, Amaram never actually said 'I promise'. Kaladin just assumed it was a promise. But that's getting pedantic.

 

Amaram was still trying to protect Tien and the messenger boys when he put them in a reserve force, balanced by a need for more men. I think in Tien's case that Amaram was trying the best he could manage. Still, not following through on what he said he'd do is certainly rather scummy, even if there might have been extenuating circumstances.

 

Amaram certainly has a black mark to his name. His so-called honor isn't all it's cracked up to be. But the problem is the idiotic wars the Alethi fight and the drafts they force on their people to have the manpower for them. Killing younger children... not really a crime I'd pin on Amaram. He might share some of the blame, but I think you can blame Sadeas for the border-skirmishes as a whole, Odium for promoting the aggressive warlike culture, Roshone for sending Tien into the army because of a grudge, and Varth for using the boys as bait. Amaram did something at least to protect Tien, even if he couldn't quite come through.

 

Really, the more I think about Amaram, the more I'm thinking he's a man in a terrible position. He's trying to do his best, but it's not enough, and he can't make the 'right' choices without failing at some of his responsibilities. Head of an army fighting pointless wars which is constantly losing, part of a conspiracy doing important enough things that he's willing to kill for the ability to do his part in the conspiracy more effectively, his highprince is a douchnozzle who's commanded him to fight border skirmishes, he's forced to juggle the lives of children between losing even more men. Oh, and Sadeas might be his highprince, but he's also sworn loyalty to Restares who may be equally douchenozzley and manipulates him into doing things he feels guilty about... I really really want a PoV and the whole story from him now. Maybe even a book dedicated to him. He's like Taravangian-lite. He probably has a nice tortured PoV to read. I imagine he has a hard time sleeping at night.

 

... why do I keep working myself up into feeling sympathy for the villains of the series? I need to stop this. Also, I managed to edit this into a minor essay. Sorry about that, whoever is reading this!

Edited January 23, 2014 by Moogle

[Aleksiel]

 

As opposed to using young and trained boys like Kaladin to fight? Would it really matter to you if Tien was a few years older and had some training before dying horribly? Amaram forcing a draft (and Roshone volunteering up Tien) is the issue. Actually, scratch that, the Alethi drive for war and their border skirmishes is the main issue.

 

Also of note, Amaram didn't order Tien be used as bait. That was this rather scummy guy:

 

Amaram can be blamed for not keeping a promise entirely, though. His promise was:

 

Tien was a messenger boy for a few months, not a few years. Not quite a huge broken promise, though certainly rather scummy.

 

Amaram certainly has a black mark to his name. His so-called honor isn't all it's cracked up to be. But the problem is the idiotic wars the Alethi fight and the drafts they force on their people to have the manpower for them. Killing younger children... not really a crime I'd pin on Amaram.

Using anyone as bait when they are no expected to survive is a problem. Breaking the promise is indeed minor as he couldn't have predicted everything, but intentionally sending his subordinates to death is unforgivable. Amaram definitely knew such thing were happening and chose to look away. Just because he didn't give the orders himself doesn't make him innocent. I think we already know more than enough to judge his character. Amaram may be no worse than Sadeas or most lighteyes army commanders, but he is not better either.

[Moogle]

but intentionally sending his subordinates to death is unforgivable.

 

So you'd argue that starting a war where people are guaranteed to be killed his unforgiveable? We might actually be closer in thinking than I thought.

 

I do agree that Amaram looking away is a bit iffy. He's certainly not a very strongly principled man, though I think it's possible that he's just a weak man doing the best he can in a terrible situation.

 

I do think Amaram is way better than Sadeas, though. Sadeas is a one dimensional caricature of a villain who wants to fight battles and kill people just 'cuz it makes him feel young again (also: his wife has assassins!!!111). He sort of literally orders hundreds of men to run unprotected at archers while carrying bridges and is cartoon villain ugly.

 

Amaram at least has some depth. He claims to do the things he does for the good of Alethkar.  Amaram's probably slightly better than Dalinar, too, though way below Kaladin.

Edited January 23, 2014 by Moogle

[JesseQ]

I cannot figure out how to do the quote thing on my Kindle and sorry for the delayed response but I just wanted to agree with you that it's likely neither of us have an aversion to common decency; a lack of which would surely be a significant trait. While our politics are surely divergent I do respect your opinions and your ability and determination to make your case. I could never agree with the idea that Amaram is better than Dalinar; interesting perspective. Your interpretation of things is really fascinating.

[DocHoliday]

@TomR: I just want to put on that I was incorrect about the usage of racist. I think of racism and prejudices in general as being the same ball of wax. Racism however is a very specific form of prejudice, that Kaladin is not a practitioner of. He is prejudiced however.

 

OT: Amaran did a very bad thing. Regardless of reason, or guilt he felt.

Can anyone say outright that the murdering of his subordinates was good? I used the word good. Not justified. Not ultimately right. Just: good.

 

If you can't say that, then what are we arguing about? His reasons are his own. He's not Dr. Evil. He's a person. Not a hero or the devil. He made a call, hoping to increase his own power in the hope of doing some ultimately greater good. There is redemption there. That doesn't make the murder of Kaladin's squad ok.

[vikorr]

Has anyone else had the idea that Amaram is the embodiment of the old 'morality' of Alethkar, while Kaladin is the embodiment of the New? (moreso than Dalinar, who did not come by it as instinctively as Kaladin & apparently doesn't have an Honourspren)

 

The inevitable meeting between the two, I think is set up to be a clash of old & new moralities (not necesarily an overt one though).

Edited January 23, 2014 by vikorr

[.S.A.M.K.M]

 The thing is a darkeye who becomes a shardbearer is a light eyes, it has been part of their society for years. it is the forlorn hope o the under class that they might be equal to their betters.

[The Count]

On a separate note more related to the original purpose of the post I guess:

 

Imagine this:

 

There is a feast at which Amaram is asked to tell the story of how he won his Shards.

 

 However, Shallan and Pattern are also there and Pattern keeps shouting 'LIES' all the way thorough it.

 

That would be great poetic justice I think.

Edited January 23, 2014 by The Count

[+eveorjoy]

Pattern, the Spren powered lie detector.

[Cayron]

I think that Amaram is weak, meaning he doesn't know what is right and wrong. Alethi way is to be ruthless, as they think a perfect soldier should be. That act was very like that. On other hand Amaram was guided by Gavilar, who, in recent years before he was killed, liked the old way, honorable ways, so Amaram is(or at least, was) not sure what is the right thing to do at the time.

 

He also thinks that Darkeyes are inferior to Lighteyes (i mean, he believes that the way he thinks that water is wet, there is no doubt in his mind about that), so he got convinced that its the right thing to do (can't have those incompetent little darkeyes soldier have a Blade and Plate, now can we? They might hurt themselves with it ).

 

Amaram feels that he should be honorable because of Gavilar, not because he really belives in honor. For example, Dalinar really craved Navani and his brother's throne. Instead of taking it, he promised himself that he will never, ever take it.

 

Amaram isn't a bad person. He just can't know what is the right and wrong thing to do, so he needs to have someone whom he respects to tell him what is right and wrong. Amaram is a soldier, not a leader, sadly. Dalinar on the other hand has no problem knowing what is right and what is wrong

 

 

 

Also, since someone brought up terrorist and the word cowardly in same line, I think that pershaps you should read Alamut by Vladimir Bartol. It will certanly give you an interesting view of that sad act. I think that there are two main reason for this. Either hate or manipulation from another person. Regardless, if you don't feel like reading it,a summary is a good way to give you something to think about it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alamut_(1938_novel)

[EvilKetchupCow]

Heres How I see things going down(sorry for broken thoughts, I'll smooth it out later).

 

Amaram was recovering from his broken leg and fighting ghost bloods during his 2 year absence from the Shattered Plains. Possible that the ghostbloods were responsible for the battle that Tien died at. Maybe an early attempt to get rid of Amaram. 

 

Ok

 

Kaladin is on guard duty. He is inside while the rest of his crew is outside. Dalinar/Adolin(and others?) decide its time to either take Amaram's shards or Take shards from someone loyal to Sadeas. At which point Kaladin would recommend Amaram as the target. Dalinar may not like it (given the Morse code passage) But wonders why Kaladin would have any knowledge about Amaram and his shards. He asks why. Kaladin says that when Amaram "won his shards" he was stuck under a horse with a broken leg. Dalinar/Adolin push further but Kaladin regrets that he spoke out and is very stubborn about it, until he recives a direct order. He starts the story about why he joined Amaram's Army and about Tien's death.  And finally to battle where  Kaladin kills the brightlord in attempt to make it to the shattered plains. and then the Shardbarer...

Kaladin is very difficult about the whole process and doesn't want to keep going.

 

Adolin Doesn't believe Kaladin, but Dalinar does. Starts another fight between Adolin/Dalinar

[vikorr]

In one of the new chapters, Dalinar thinks that 'an old friend' is on his way to the Shattered plains that may solve his problems.

 

Considering Galivar's conspiring with Amaram, and that Amaram is indeed on his way to the shattered plains - it seems that Amaram the 'old friend'.

 

That could cause a problem.

[lummi]

The answer to the question that was asked ( and it was not if amaram was a good or a bad guy, there is a different  thread for that) is probably yes.

[Iarvos]

Death is scary. I certainly don't want to die. I think willing to face that and kill yourself to help your people (as I imagine the terrorists felt) is difficult to call cowardly, though we might differ here. Even if they had a belief in an afterlife, I think there would still be some doubt and it would require courage to face.

Moogle, I think you may be imposing your healthy view of death on those that aren't in a healthy state of mind. Traditional suicide is so tempting precisely because it is the easier, and in the sense that it promises less pain, the safer way out for highly depressed individuals. Traditional suicide is in that sense an act of cowardice, as the individual is overcome by his or her fear and anxiety and driven to the act of suicide. I won't try to argue that terrorists are in the same state of mind that drives traditional suicide - but I do believe that their state of mind significantly reduces their fear of death to the extent that I definitely wouldn't call them courageous.

In many ways, by resorting to suicidal violence, they are also taking the easy way out. Rather than working through their prejudices and the prejudices of those who oppose them, they are giving in to their hatred, much like a coward gives into fear. So, I would argue that they are akin to cowards in that they take the easy way out by giving in to their hatred, but I would agree with you that cowardice is not the best term to describe them, if pedanticism is your cup of tea (Like it is mine).

Returning to Amaram - I'll grudgingly admit that there are circumstances which could possibly justify his actions, or at least complicate the matter immensely - but given the information that we have his actions are unlikely to be justifiable. From what I can see, Amaram is a light eyes that has convictions that align well with traditional honor (like present day Dalinar's), but is fairly weak in them. To me, Amaram did act out of cowardice - he allowed his fears of the future to override his honorable convictions. Cowardice however CAN overlap with "wisdom", so if honor has no inherent value, then it could be argued that Amaram was wise in his action. I do believe honor has inherent value though, so I don't believe Amaram was correct in his actions.

TL&DR - Suicide can be driven by cowardice, terrorism can similarly be driven by hatred, and I believe Amaram acted cowardly by at least one reasonable definition of cowardice.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Iarvos

[Moogle]

larvos, your post is reasonable and well-argued. I think you have a point that most suicide bombers are not in their right minds, and I think that calling them courageous may be stretching things. All the same, I disagree with your slight equivocation of prejudice and cowardice, as well as your view on honor having inherent value (since I am not sure what exactly is meant by that).

 

You can argue that Amaram's fears of the future causing him to abandon his honor is 'cowardice', but I really think you're stretching the term at that point such that it could apply to literally everyone in TWoK. I find the idea of doing something you know is going to have bad consequences to be irrational, which I think you alluded to when you said cowardice can overlap with wisdom.

 

If you're admitting that the circumstances matter in regards to Amaram's betrayal, then I really don't think we disagree much on the matter. We'll have to see why Amaram did what he did, and what he's done since he's obtained the Shardblade.

 

I think Amaram is honorable when he can be, and discards his honor when it would lead to negative consequences. I find that almost admirable, except for the part where Amaram is not a particularly admirable man. Pity, that. I really want to know what's going on with him.

[.S.A.M.K.M]

 I think some time in the future, he will back kaladin againts the brightlord who sent his brother into the army. 

[Crysanja]

we should keep several things in mind.

 

 

Kaladin dening the shards is near to an heretical act.

winning shards and using them is propably precived as one of the best ways to be in Vorism for a lighteyes.

for a darkeyes its even more, guess you could say divine act.

 

with the Aleti mindset it is a crazy thing todo.

 

 

For Amaram Kaladin is a high ranking lighteyes at this point, for Kaladin to say, give it to one of my men(darkeyes) -

means more or less for Amaram, give it to someone closer to a slave/parshmen/animal. 

in addition it adds alot of insult, to prefere being a slave/parshmen/animal then to become a high ranking lighteyes.

 

just think about the situation in america 60 and more years ago. (sorry for this one, but it makes things more clear)

Edited January 24, 2014 by Crysanja

[Aleksiel]

we should keep several things in mind.

 

 

Kaladin dening the shards is near to an heretical act.

winning shards and using them is propably precived as one of the best ways to be in Vorism for a lighteyes.

for a darkeyes its even more, guess you could say divine act.

 

with the Aleti mindset it is a crazy thing todo.

 

 

For Amaram Kaladin is a high ranking lighteyes at this point, for Kaladin to say, give it to one of my men(darkeyes) -

means more or less for Amaram, give it to someone closer to a slave/parshmen/animal. 

in addition it adds alot of insult, to prefere being a slave/parshmen/animal then to become a high ranking lighteyes.

 

just think about the situation in america 60 and more years ago. (sorry for this one, but it makes things more clear)

 

Darkeyes are not parshmen and have the right to win and keep shards, Kaladin's men deserved them. Plus, Amaram could have taken what he wanted for himself without killing his own men, Kaladin saying to give them away didn't necessarily mean whom to be given. He refused the shards, Amaram could have said that this gives him the right to decide what to with them as Kaladin's superior and be done with the topic. But no, Amaram wanted to make it look like he won them himself, which is a whole different story.