Toaster Retribution he/him Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 He is a hero, but he is not perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormgate he/him Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 Nobody is. Anybody who says differently is writing an inferior story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rellar he/him Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 (edited) Kelsier was hero to me atleast. I believe his passion for killing nobles stems from what has happened to him, nobles kill, rape and treat Skaa like they arn't even people. Many of Kelsier's friends (such as Doxson) have personal loss due to the Nobility. Another thing is the fact that Kelsier knows the Nobility have some power to change how things are, but won't. To him, this is them upholding the Final Empire. Sure you could argue that killing nobility with enjoyment is villainous. But in the context of the world and story, he is only doing it because of all the casual deaths of Skaa the nobility cause. He definitely isn't evil, just has alot of inner demons, mostly because of what happened to Mare. At the end of first Mistborn novel, Vin shows Kelsier that not all nobility are evil and so he stops the order to kill them all. I don't even think he is psychopathic, I think he just wanted to end the Empire that slaughtered millions casually, and killed the woman he loved. In the end he just wanted freedom for the people. And herein lies the inherent flaw in the Skybreaker philosophy Your irredeemable murderer can become someone else's hero. It all really depends on perspective more than anything else. Even if done for selfish reasons, if someone wound up fighting for a cause others deem noble they'd still be a hero to them, no? Why Kell did it is somewhat irrelevant here. In the end, he committed the gravest crimes possible and was hailed and worshipped for it because the people saw it as necessary. Be it for good will, revenge, or the cash that he took on the job, he pulled it off. Condemned by the law yet exalted by the people, and who is the law usually meant to serve?No doubt he and Wax will come to blows if they met, but who would really be the hero then? Also no, I don't think that would even be the case if they met. They both are upholding justice and fighting evil in their own times. It is also mentioned at the end of the Alloy of Law, when Marsh meets Marasi that Wax is "doing my brothers work, and that is something I feel inclined to encourage." But hey, that's just my take on it! Edited December 2, 2015 by Shotgunsalesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baine he/him Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 I think Kelsier was a hero. Yes, he had prejudices against nobles, but looking at what they've done, I probably would've thought the same thing. If you want irrational, self-serving hatred, go look at [spook's city that I am totally blanking out on right now]; The Citizen there was leading French Revolution/Nazi style witch hunts for anyone of noble blood AT ALL. Kelsier was a (flawed) Hero. The Citizen was a (maybe redeemable) villain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kestrel she/her Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 I think he had good intentions, but his way of going about them wasn't the best, for the most part. This is why I like Mistborn and its characters; is there ever a truely "evil" character? Save for ruin? Its better than most of the fantasies where there's a huge line between "good" and "bad," making it more realistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 I think he had good intentions, but his way of going about them wasn't the best, for the most part. This is why I like Mistborn and its characters; is there ever a truely "evil" character? Save for ruin? Its better than most of the fantasies where there's a huge line between "good" and "bad," making it more realistic. Hey now, Ati was a pretty nice guy. Practically a victim in all this. The world's got to end at some point. In fact it was supposed to end immediately after they made humans, the casualties would be a lot lower if Preservation didn't outright backstab him to drag this out as long as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmurfAquamarineBodies he/him Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 If you were to ask Tanavast who the villain of Mistborn was, the answer would probably be Preservation. He made a deal with Ruin then betrayed him. Not very honourable. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormgate he/him Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 Depending on how you look at it, every tragedy is cause for celebration, and every holiday a cause for mourning. In the ends, it doesn't matter whether or not Kelsier was a hero, or anyone else is. We simply take the situations they give us, and try to do the best they can. I suppose that is a hero. Someone who makes the best of their situation and uses it to do great things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirahound she/her Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 To my mind, Kelsier is a hero. I've actually given this a bit of thought since reading Alloy of Law, with its comparisons between Miles and Kelsier, and I can't help thinking of the different circumstances they were in. In Kelsier's case, the government actually sanctioned rape and murder to keep the noble houses from getting too antsy. That's messed up. In my opinion, Kelsier is a hero because he saw how much the system was hurting other people, and he fought back against everyone he thought was culpable. Granted, he was wrong when it came to the nobles, but he was also humble enough that when Vin pointed out that he was wrong, he was willing to reevaluate and make sure he was doing the right thing (hence his change of heart about the nobles in the letter he left for Vin). In contrast, Miles saw how much the system irked him and was willing to hurt anyone, including the people he knew had nothing to do with it (ie, Steris and the other noblewomen he kidnapped) in order to get what he wanted. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
50Metals he/him Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 This dilemma of hero vs. villain being an unclear line pops up in all the cosmere works. Perhaps it is even the great theme of the cosmere. I salute Sanderson for continuing to wrestle with this question rather than just saying "meh, its all grey" and writing a bunch of inconsistent antiheroes. As they discuss in Warbreaker, every man is the hero of his own story. I think one answer would be a discredit to Sanderson, who might build to something better, but I'd say that the villains of the Cosmere ask others to make the necessary sacrifice. The heroes may do the same, but also make the sacrifice themselves. By this definition, Kelsier is a hero, and the Lord Ruler is not. (Though Sazed rightly sympathizes with the difficulty of TLR's position, being in a similar one now himself) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mailliw73 he/him Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 I think he had good intentions, but his way of going about them wasn't the best, for the most part. This is why I like Mistborn and its characters; is there ever a truely "evil" character? Save for ruin? Its better than most of the fantasies where there's a huge line between "good" and "bad," making it more realistic. I love it for the same reason, but even Ruin wasn't necessarily evil, not by my standards. Ati was warped by his Intent and couldn't control it. And like Ruin mentions, everything must end. It's not evil to end, it just is. The closest to an evil person in Mistborn is probably TLR, but even he tried to help in some ways. I don't excuse what he did to his Empire, but he had some good intentions as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kestrel she/her Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 Honestly, I feel that Straff is the most "evil" character. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ninja Yodeler he/him Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 And herein lies the inherent flaw in the Skybreaker philosophy Your irredeemable murderer can become someone else's hero. It all really depends on perspective more than anything else. Even if done for selfish reasons, if someone wound up fighting for a cause others deem noble they'd still be a hero to them, no? Why Kell did it is somewhat irrelevant here. In the end, he committed the gravest crimes possible and was hailed and worshipped for it because the people saw it as necessary. Be it for good will, revenge, or the cash that he took on the job, he pulled it off. Condemned by the law yet exalted by the people, and who is the law usually meant to serve? No doubt he and Wax will come to blows if they met, but who would really be the hero then? I dont see any flaw in the Skybreaker philosophy. Its just their perspective to follow the law of whatever land they are in when the crime is committed. At least that was the take I had on it. Plus, I dont think, to the Skybreakers, the law is meant to protect the people. More as a structure for order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 I love it for the same reason, but even Ruin wasn't necessarily evil, not by my standards. Ati was warped by his Intent and couldn't control it. And like Ruin mentions, everything must end. It's not evil to end, it just is. The closest to an evil person in Mistborn is probably TLR, but even he tried to help in some ways. I don't excuse what he did to his Empire, but he had some good intentions as well. Well there's always Straff to take the title of "antagonist without a single justifiable reason to excuse his load of chull dung." He didn't do much, but he sure as heck was getting in the way of people who actually were, and it's really all just the selfishness talking. TLR was at least trying to buy the world another thousand years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baine he/him Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 (edited) Whoa, I just realized: Straff is the Umbridge of Mistborn. He competes with Sadeas for horrible supremacy of the Cosmere. Edited December 3, 2015 by Baine 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormgate he/him Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 Straff, Sadeas, the Set... Sanderson apparently loves making characters that we want to strangle to death, make a Lifeless, then Command the Lifeless to walk off a chasm edge before a highstorm. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charononus Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 I dont see any flaw in the Skybreaker philosophy. Its just their perspective to follow the law of whatever land they are in when the crime is committed. At least that was the take I had on it. Plus, I dont think, to the Skybreakers, the law is meant to protect the people. More as a structure for order. Yet put a Skybreaker into Scadrial during the final empire and they would support the nobility in oppressing the skaa. You can find other various situations in real world history, where mass atrocities were committed by a country and that was ok by that countries laws. Laws sometimes need to be broken, and that is the flaw with the skybreakers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormgate he/him Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 On the surface, all the philosophies of the Radiants make sense, yet all have their flaws. The main choice of philosophy is which flaws you can deal with. For example, Kaladin can't easily live with even vindicated assassination, but can, although not easily, support protecting people, even if they were indirectly responsible for destroying his world. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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