Highstorms

[Sunblesser]

There is ample evidence in them that the storms are not a recent thing. In the stormdream involving the midnight essence, Dalinar is described as being

Granted, he does not see a storm directly, but he sees that people have built their dwellings in a manner familiar to him for avoiding storm damage, and the land is also descibed as being stone, evidence that storms are preventing the development of topsoil. The woman Taffa, wife of the person in whose place Dalinar experinced the past, also made direct reference to the storms:

Taffa makes reference to stormwinds at least twice during the sequence, indicating the importance of storms in the culture she was from. We can reasonably infer from this that Highstorms existed then.

On an unrelated matter, when re-reading this part of the book for this post, I found this line from Tanavast speaking through Taffa at the end of the scene to be very interesting in light of the fact it is part of a set of visions sent from the dead holder of the Honor shard to anyone capable of hearing it in the future:

Is this the dead shardholder telling Dalinar that despite the fact he is dead, and the fact that the Shard may be splintered, the Intent of the Shard will be sufficient to let it aid those who espouse it's ideal, even bereft of a guiding intelligence?

i think that your interpretation of tanavast's words in the vision is correct. i believe that we are seeing this very principle in action with kaladin gaining the abilities of the windrunners. of course, it is a subject of some debate whether or not all spren that form nahel bonds are honourspren, but Syl is, and that implies a very intimate connection to the intent of the shard. if kaladin isn't getting his power from honour somehow, then i don't think he should be getting any power at all.

edit: grammar

Edited September 19, 2011 by Sunblesser

[Tortellini]

Last fall when Brandon signed in Portland, I asked him about the Highstorms. I wanted to know if there was 1 Highstorm, or multiple Highstorms.... I was RAFO'ed. I suspect that the Highstorm(I think there is only one), is likely either the remains of the body of Honor.

Which explains the presence of the spren in the storm, why the stormlight powers all the magics, and why the visions Dalinar sees come with the storms. I further think that the Stormfather Kaladin sees in the storm is basically the 'ghost' of Honor, the shard, not the bearer(who is dead). It doesn't look like Jezrien, it doesn't look like the Almighty from the visions.... because it is the Honor unbound to any shardholder.

I read the thread and felt so smart - and then he sums it up I agree that there may well be only 1 Highstorm and that it goes round and round - that would explain the rough predictability. It picks up speed again over the ocean or the other side of the world... And I agree, it is likely the physical representation of a shard - or possibly a mix of 2 (like the pools in Mistborn or Elantris). The crem and the life-giving properties of Highstorm waters indicate that Cultivation is in there, too. What if the Highstorm is not actually based on the shard of Honor, but on Cultivation? That would mean that stormlight is actually from Cultivation, and maybe both Surge- and Voidbinders can use it (compare with the black sphere of Gavilar). In any case, I also believe it's not a traditional hurricane but a roughly linear wall.

Also - one thing that has not been discussed is the Purelake. The Purelake completely disappears during Highstorms - why? As a very large pool of water, full of life, it is suspicious already I withdraws into the ground and comes back afterwards, but that is completely unnatural.

[Dros]

Re: the Purelake...I thought there might be a connection with the Shattered Plains too, but I really have no idea what it is. I used to think the Purelake has some connection to the creation of the Shattered Plains and some sort of recent connection to the Highstorms. But now, seeing the overwhelming evidence, I would definitely concur that the Highstorms have been around for quite some time and that means the Purelake and the Highstorms have probably been around longer than the Shattered Plains.

One observation though (or question as it were)...the Purelake's location is somewhat like the eye of a hurricane, and the continent is somewhat shaped like a circular storm, like it's moving in a counterclockwise motion even, like a hurricane would...why?

[hoser]

Great speculations!

I do note a few things that I remember from the book.

Kaladin's dream storm-ride goes ocean to ocean, so the storms must pass around Shinovar, rather than end in the mountains shielding it.

Nohadon walks from Abamabar (I don't know where this is although at one point he is in what is now known as Kholinar) to Urithiru in weeks. If he walks 15 miles a day, that might be about 300 miles within a factor of 0.5 to 2.

Thanks for the thoughts.

[dj26792]

Something a few people have commented on, storms dont form walls... they totally do in Australia at least. I've seen them form, and come through the town I used to live in, a front you could use as a ruler and clearly defined edges, could destroy a 2 block wide strip of the town and barely touch anything else. However they were almost always followed by a more general rain storm.

So that made me think about the highstorms being followed by progressively weaker storms, what if those storms are the same as the rain storms that used to follow those storms. If thats the case we're seriously under-estimating the strength of the highstorms. When Kalladin is in the highstorm he thinks about all the debree that will come with the storm front, that sounds to me more like a flood wave than any kind of storm... its not a crazy flat fronted hurricane its such a powerful wave of wind that it not just rips trees up (like strong storms we're familiar with them) it drags them along with it and throws them into things like a flood coming down a river.

However, my theory on the highstorm(s) is that they are essentially natural but are a response to a supernatural phenomenon, the rain from them seems very cultivation, the stormlight implies honour since it powers his magic, but its them acting and the storms form in response to their actions.

[rags]

I think Highstorms are of Odium. Why?

"Though many wished Urithiru to be built in Alethela, it was obvious that it could not be. And so it was that we asked for it to be placed westward, in the place nearest to Honor"

Epigraph of Ch.35.

Also, Alethkar is also in the east closest to the origin (along with natanatan). It was also the home of the radiants who protected from desolations.....it would make sense for them to be closest to Odium, the shield that protects other kingdoms. It would seem Honor was westward......closest to Shin where things are more "normal". Also High storms get stronger the closer we get to desolation (I can't find the quote for that, but it is there in the book)

It would seem the highstorms arising from the origin cannot be of honor.....but that does not make much sense as Dalinar seems Tanavast only during highstorms and Kaladin also rides the highstorms. Highstorm rain is also fertile.....so it could be of cultivation??

There is one explanation that has been discussed a lot......and makes sense.

Highstorms are Odium's destructive power but are being tempered and its destructive power mitigated by cultivation and honors power. That would explain fertile crem and also explain honors location.

That leads to interesting questions about stormlight...It is obviously related to highstorms but does that make it Odium's power?? That is a very unsatisfactory explanation.

Edited July 29, 2012 by rags

[Vortaan]

Actually, that brings up a point I don't think anyone's mentioned. If the storms are dying, that means no more crem. And no more crem would have a greater impact on Roshar than no more stormlight. Without crem you wouldn't be able to grow any food at all. Could that be Odium's plan? It's a much easier way to kill a continent worth of people than sending monsters to kill them one at a time.

[Windrunner]

I think Odium's plan really amounts to an eternal highstorm, as the name Everstorm implies. I think TWoK actually says the storms are growing in strength. I'll check.

EDIT:

Found it! For a second there I thought I was delusional. It's only a quick throw away mention.

And stormwardens whisper that the highstorms are growing more powerful

[Aeshdan]

It would seem the highstorms arising from the origin cannot be of honor.....but that does not make much sense as Dalinar seems Tanavast only during highstorms and Kaladin also rides the highstorms. Highstorm rain is also fertile.....so it could be of cultivation??

There is one explanation that has been discussed a lot......and makes sense.

Highstorms are Odium's destructive power but are being tempered and its destructive power mitigated by cultivation and honors power. That would explain fertile crem and also explain honors location.

That leads to interesting questions about stormlight...It is obviously related to highstorms but does that make it Odium's power?? That is a very unsatisfactory explanation.

I have a counter-theory that also explains all facts: the Highstorms were originally created by Honor with only a fragment of their current destructive power (they still carried the Light). Then Odium comes along and pours a bunch of his power into the Highstorms, ramping them up to what we have today. Honor couldn't stop the storms because that would also stop the Light.

[Vortaan]

This brings up a secondary question. Is there an upper limit on how many spheres you can charge in one highstorm? If there isn't, does that mean that they are effectively unlimited in power? And if there is, what would that mean?

[Windrunner]

Well theoretically that could mean that the people of Roshar never have to harness electricity for power as their technology level grows. They could use Stormlight for their power source, and have each place simply siphon off some highstorm power. Clean energy. But then that brings up the constraint of how large they could get the gems, since a gem can only hold a certain amount of Stormlight. It's seeming like the chasmfiend gemhearts are the largest stones, but then again Roshar's myths speak of a city made entirely of gems, so who knows?

[Inkthinker]

This brings up a secondary question. Is there an upper limit on how many spheres you can charge in one highstorm? If there isn't, does that mean that they are effectively unlimited in power? And if there is, what would that mean?

I think there's an upper limit on how much of a charge a given sphere holds (dependent on the type of gem and its cut). More valuable spheres hold more charge (I think. Peter confirm?).

Given that every sphere exposed to a highstorm anywhere takes a charge, I don't know if there's a limit on total number of spheres themselves.

[Aeshdan]

I think there's an upper limit on how much of a charge a given sphere holds (dependent on the type of gem and its cut). More valuable spheres hold more charge (I think. Peter confirm?).

The bigger a gem, the more Light it holds. This is why broams are more valuable than marks are more valuable than chips. Also, various cuts can increase a gem's charge limit. The type of gem does not affect the charge, instead the values of different types of gems are fixed based on Soulcasting properties.

[happyman]

I'd suspect that the amount of power in the world has a limit, but that it is very large and nowhere near what humans on Roshar have actually tapped into.

[Thought]

Hoid's story about Derethil and the Wandersail seems pertinent here. Derethil sailed westward in a ship that could survive Highstorms. That means he was sailing away from the storms, yes? If he was, why did he need a marvelous ship that could semi-survive them? The answer seems to be that either the storms don't really die down as they pass over Roshar, or they pick up speed ridiculously quick once out at sea.

Also, since it was suggested that Honor might be in the west, the spiraling vortex where "the ocean drains" seems like it might be an interesting thing to consider.

[dj26792]

He needs a ship that can survive the highstorms because he doesnt know whats out there but a storm as powerful as the highstorms would gather power very quickly over a large body of water/the ocean.

[CabbageHead]

I think Highstorms are of Odium. Why?

Epigraph of Ch.35.

Also, Alethkar is also in the east closest to the origin (along with natanatan). It was also the home of the radiants who protected from desolations.....it would make sense for them to be closest to Odium, the shield that protects other kingdoms. It would seem Honor was westward......closest to Shin where things are more "normal". Also High storms get stronger the closer we get to desolation (I can't find the quote for that, but it is there in the book)

It would seem the highstorms arising from the origin cannot be of honor.....but that does not make much sense as Dalinar seems Tanavast only during highstorms and Kaladin also rides the highstorms. Highstorm rain is also fertile.....so it could be of cultivation??

There is one explanation that has been discussed a lot......and makes sense.

Highstorms are Odium's destructive power but are being tempered and its destructive power mitigated by cultivation and honors power. That would explain fertile crem and also explain honors location.

That leads to interesting questions about stormlight...It is obviously related to highstorms but does that make it Odium's power?? That is a very unsatisfactory explanation.

I like your line of thought. I too have considered that the storm is a manifestation of the battle between Honour and Odium. The idea that Cultivation is throwing a stick in the spokes of the storm to enable life from that which scours the land is nice.

[happyman]

I think Highstorms are of Odium. Why?

Epigraph of Ch.35.

Also, Alethkar is also in the east closest to the origin (along with natanatan). It was also the home of the radiants who protected from desolations.....it would make sense for them to be closest to Odium, the shield that protects other kingdoms. It would seem Honor was westward......closest to Shin where things are more "normal". Also High storms get stronger the closer we get to desolation (I can't find the quote for that, but it is there in the book)

It would seem the highstorms arising from the origin cannot be of honor.....but that does not make much sense as Dalinar seems Tanavast only during highstorms and Kaladin also rides the highstorms. Highstorm rain is also fertile.....so it could be of cultivation??

There is one explanation that has been discussed a lot......and makes sense.

Highstorms are Odium's destructive power but are being tempered and its destructive power mitigated by cultivation and honors power. That would explain fertile crem and also explain honors location.

That leads to interesting questions about stormlight...It is obviously related to highstorms but does that make it Odium's power?? That is a very unsatisfactory explanation.

I really like the idea that the Highstorms represent the fight between the powers. It would explain why they seem to be associated with all three of the (known) involved Shards. Cultivation->Highstorms make good fertilizer. Honor->Highstorms fuel Surgebinding. Odium->Highstorms are extremely destructive in most other ways.

[The Count]

Here we go with my first post! Yay!

Following the current line of thought, what if the highstorms are a manifestation of the oathpact??

We know that the oathpact was some kind og agreement between Honor and Odium. Is it too much of a strech to think that Cultivation (the other Shard on Roshar) didn't also have a hand it it?

We see evidence of all three shards in the Highstorms as already mentioned, Destruction (Odium), Fertility (Cultivation), Stormriding (Honor). Plus we know that the Oathpact goes back millennia so the time issue is also accounted for.

Obviously we do not know the terms or circumstances of the oathpact other than hints. But maybe the Highstorms were some physical manifestation of the pact formed by the three Shards on Roshar.

<Stretches the theory even further>

Could it be the delivery system for the 'Magic' systems for all three as well??

Stormlight for Honour - powering KR / Honor / lightside powers

Void Energy - powering the Voidbringers / Odim / Darkside powers

Fertility - powering growth / Cultivation / Neutral powers

I like it, the roiling battle of Stormlight / Void energy / Fertility creating the powerful mass of a highstorm.

Flame Away good sirs! (...er... and Madames)

Edited September 13, 2012 by MadRand

[CabbageHead]

Here we go with my first post! Yay!

YAY!

Following the current line of thought, what if the highstorms are a manifestation of the oathpact??

We know that the oathpact was some kind og agreement between Honor and Odium. Is it too much of a strech to think that Cultivation (the other Shard on Roshar) didn't also have a hand it it?

Actually, we don't know anything about the oathpact except that keeping it meant the Heralds had to go to some hell-like place between desolations. We guess that that is the outcome of some bargain between Honour and Odium, but we don't know. Heralds going to hell for thousands of year at a time is pretty much all we know about yet.

[Observer]

I always took the story of the Wandersail to be a symbolic tale of what happens to Roshar once it realizes God, the ultimate excuse for everything, is dead. We'd have a lot of those riots and deaths.

But that's off topic.

We seriously need somebody to get to the origin and figure out what's in there. My money's on a shardpool, possibly a mixture of all three.

Shinovar is crazy wierd, what with chickens, cows, and soil. Could Shiovar be Uritiru? It's "close to Honor".

By the way, doesn't it strike you all as odd that the text fragment refers not to the Almighty, not to God, but to Honor? I missed it on all three readthroughs because I know the term and I'm familiar with it. But why would anybody on Roshar know or use that term?

[hoser]

I always took the story of the Wandersail to be a symbolic tale of what happens to Roshar once it realizes God, the ultimate excuse for everything, is dead. We'd have a lot of those riots and deaths.

But that's off topic.

I really like this idea!

Shinovar is crazy wierd, what with chickens, cows, and soil. Could Shiovar be Uritiru? It's "close to Honor".

Please permit me to suggest this thread for background speculation about Urithiru. You may find it interesting.

I think Urithiru will turn out to be somewhere more central to the "Silver Kingdoms" than Shinovar. With the magic system of Honor powered by stormlight, it seems unlikely that Urithiru would be located in the only place that doesn't get any. In the same thread, the idea is developed that there are oathgates linking Urithiru to the various kingdoms. If these oathgates are powered by stormlight also, Shinovar doesn't seem like a likely location to me.

In addition, some interpret Szeth's comments about his punishment and the existence of voidbringers (discussed in this thread) to mean that the Stone Shamans (Shamen?) denied the existence of voidbringers. This seems to imply that voidbringers didn't strike there, possibly because of the lack of stormlight. But it also makes it seem unlikely to be Urithiru to me.

By the way, doesn't it strike you all as odd that the text fragment refers not to the Almighty, not to God, but to Honor? I missed it on all three readthroughs because I know the term and I'm familiar with it. But why would anybody on Roshar know or use that term?

Yes, absolutely. If you accept Dalinar's visions and think about it, an incredible amount happened during Nohadon's lifetime (and apparently without Heraldic intervention, as it is immediately following a desolation). This thread goes over it in more detail. I don't entirely buy the central theory, but you may enjoy the discussion. Anyway, it seems like there must have been some interesting communication about or with Honor during that time.

I hope these references to old threads seem helpful, interesting and not overwhelming. I am curious about your thoughts after reviewing (if you choose to).

[The Count]

Actually, we don't know anything about the oathpact except that keeping it meant the Heralds had to go to some hell-like place between desolations. We guess that that is the outcome of some bargain between Honour and Odium, but we don't know. Heralds going to hell for thousands of year at a time is pretty much all we know about yet.

Agreed, but is that all it did?

I am willing to bet that it is not as simple as that.

<Starts pure speculation based on very little (or no) evidence...>

What if... the highstorms were a consequence (intended or not) of the formation of the oathpact.

I mean, the heralds went to Damnation (Hell) between desolations but how did they get there (assuming they did not die)? did they have to kill themselves?

Is the Origin some portal to Damnation?

<End wild speculation>

I know we have very little information about any of this so far (book 1 of 10, what did I expect) and based on my past experience of speculation Brandon' books, I am probably way off base. Still, It is fun to guess!!

[Observer]

Thanks for the all the links. Now I'll have my head buried in them all morning

[Dros]

I always took the story of the Wandersail to be a symbolic tale of what happens to Roshar once it realizes God, the ultimate excuse for everything, is dead. We'd have a lot of those riots and deaths.

But that's off topic.

We seriously need somebody to get to the origin and figure out what's in there. My money's on a shardpool, possibly a mixture of all three.

Shinovar is crazy wierd, what with chickens, cows, and soil. Could Shiovar be Uritiru? It's "close to Honor".

By the way, doesn't it strike you all as odd that the text fragment refers not to the Almighty, not to God, but to Honor? I missed it on all three readthroughs because I know the term and I'm familiar with it. But why would anybody on Roshar know or use that term?

I think it was discussed at some point on here that there was a time on Roshar that it was known that there were three godlike Shards on Roshar. One of the epigraphs said "Shard of my soul..." and another stated "Three of sixteen ruled...", which actually goes far beyond just knowledge of the three on Roshar, but includes knowledge of ALL the Shards. (I actually hadn't really thought of what that means. That's actually a big deal...that's a huge amount of knowledge about other worlds and the nature of Shards and even of Andolasium for someone or something to have on Roshar, a world where there is very little knowledge of the past.) Plus BS has gone through a lot of trouble to show how ancient wisdom and knowledge has been changed, warped and forgotten over thousands of years. I think for whatever reason, the existence of Shards became legends, which became myths, which were soon forgotten, etc. etc. WoT stuff etc.