Reviving a dead topic: Szeth's Shardblade is an Honourblade

[Meg]

Hoid doesn't have a shardblade but he seems to have an Awakened blade (similar to Nightblood but it's not Nightblood) (this is from my mind thus I don't find the reference).

 

Here's the quote about the three types of Shardblade we've seen in TWoK:

 

mycoltbug
Is there any ramifications to the holder of a shard blade for using a blade in a manner that it wasn't intended?
Brandon Sanderson
Depends on the type of Shardblade. (You have seen three different kinds in TWoK.) For most, no. For some, most certainly.

source

 

And: Honorblades are Shardblades.

 

 

 

[Nedwick]

If I have darkeyes and a Shardblade, no unSharded light-eyed person will rule me or my descendants or take our Shardblade, ever.

 

Maybe not immediately, but it is a possibility over time. Nothing is stopping a lighteyed Shardbearer from taking your Shards. There could have been a slow accumulation of lighteyed Shards.

 

More importantly, however, there are Alethi highprinces without Shards. How did they become or maintain their status as highprinces without Shards? Your argument assumes, at least in part, that no Shardbearer can be ruled by a person without Shards.

 

I think it is possible that after a period of time, the Alethi conflated the eyes of the Radiants with "lighteyes." Some darkeyed Shardbearers submitted to lighteyed rule; some darkeyed Shardbearers were bested by lighteyed Shardbearers; and, before lighteyes largely refused to wed darkeyes, some darkeyed Shards descended onto lighteyed offspring.

 

Given the reputation of the Radiants and the fact that the normally blue and green -eyed people were already around and not in charge, I don't understand how the devolution you describe would occur.

 

You are assuming that knowledge is perfectly preserved. It isn't—Jasnah's studies are proof enough of that. I would say that one of the more interesting themes of the book is the way that history blurs memory and gives rise to strange beliefs. People could eventually forget that the Radiants had "unnaturally" light eyes once surgebinders disappeared. After a time, the memory of Radiants' eyes could give rise would devolve into a belief that blue- and green-eyed individuals are leaders.

[hoser]

Well, I am torn here.  I am delighted to see that my stubborn wrongheadedness has apparently contributed to inspiring someone to join our shared obsession.  I don't want my abrasive communication to make this an unpleasant experience and maybe interfere w/your enjoyment of the forums at all.  But pussyfooting around to protect your feelings seems patronizing, so here I go. 

Maybe not immediately, but it is a possibility over time. Nothing is stopping a lighteyed Shardbearer from taking your Shards. There could have been a slow accumulation of lighteyed Shards.

Sure, some number of lighteyed Shardbearers could take our Shards.  It is just as likely that we could get together with some darkeyed Shardbearers and take Shards from lighteyed people and decide that darkeyed people are the nobility.  Or it could be people who are a certain height. Or it could be any other random attribute.  

Almost by definition, the nobility is a minority.  We are given an explanation (Shardblades lighten eye color) for why the lighteyed minority rule in Alethkar and Jah Keved.  Without support from the book, any other theory to explain why lighteyes became the nobility post-Recreance seems to get cut by Occam's razor. 

More importantly, however, there are Alethi highprinces without Shards. How did they become or maintain their status as highprinces without Shards? Your argument assumes, at least in part, that no Shardbearer can be ruled by a person without Shards.

We saw one (and the suggestion that there are others) that had a ceremonial protector who did have a Shardset.  In this case, the protector gains status and the ruler has some measure of control.  In a way, they are ruling together.  Do we know of any cases where a highprince without Shards is ruling over people with Shards?  Apparently Sadeas was exceptional in not having a blade.  Is there evidence that he rules over anyone w/a Shardset before Kaladin did his thing?

I think it is possible that after a period of time, the Alethi conflated the eyes of the Radiants with "lighteyes." Some darkeyed Shardbearers submitted to lighteyed rule; some darkeyed Shardbearers were bested by lighteyed Shardbearers; and, before lighteyes largely refused to wed darkeyes, some darkeyed Shards descended onto lighteyed offspring.

 

 

You are assuming that knowledge is perfectly preserved. It isn't—Jasnah's studies are proof enough of that. I would say that one of the more interesting themes of the book is the way that history blurs memory and gives rise to strange beliefs. People could eventually forget that the Radiants had "unnaturally" light eyes once surgebinders disappeared. After a time, the memory of Radiants' eyes could give rise would devolve into a belief that blue- and green-eyed individuals are leaders.

Sure, anything is possible.  But, given that the book provides a simple explanation (Shards change eye color), and your explanation is complicated and without support from the text, I don't see a reason to believe it.  Basically, I accept what's in the book unless it is inconsistent or discounting it creates a larger consistency. 

Using the positive reputation of the Radiants to explain how a minority came to power when the Radiants don't really have a positive reputation can be done, but it's complicated.  There is no payoff in understanding the world better and it involves discounting part of the information we are provided for no apparent reason.

Before Brandon told us that we've seen three types of Shardblades, there was a payoff to believing that Szeth held an Honorblade.  The world was simpler with only two kinds of Shardblade and it connected things.  Discounting parts of the text to cling to a theory whose payoff creates inconsistencies with what Brandon says doesn't make sense to me. 

[Bloodfalcon]

Hoser, I don't understand this 3 types of Shardblade business. Why can't Szeth's glowiness be caused by his combo power use and Honorblade use? Other people get glowy when they do the same thing. The Radiants got glowy, even Dalinar has been glowy. Kaladin was glowy minus a Shardblade. So why does glowy mean they have to be using a different type? 

Give it to me straight. I won't stand for a single pussyfoot or pussytoe here.

[Shardlet]

I don't understand why credit is given to the idea that the size of Szeth's blade means it was built for humans. I recall a thread that discussed this a lot, citing different types of weapons and their purposes and comparing the description to Szeth's blade, but those purposes don't even carry over in real life. If someone took a look at a .50 caliber rifle and had to describe the animal that might require such firepower, I'm sure they would describe something similar to a large bear. But we use them on men. 

That's not to say that it is not a possibility, that just seems like some really rough logic to use for validating a theory. Consider that Szeth's masters - whoever gave him the blade - might have chosen from a collection and thought "Well, we want this guy to kill humans, so.... this one." Or maybe all Honorblades are small because they were originally not intended to kill Thunderclasts. Or it was known that beings in possession of powers as great as those the Heralds posses would maybe do better with smaller, more controllable Blades.

 

I believe that the idea that Szeth's blade was intended fo killing humans was originally my idea.  I set this forth based on the one statement in the book that said essentially 'shardblades seemed to have been designed for killing dark gods' and the quote from Szeth in the prologue which said that Szeth's 'blade was smaller than other shardblades'.  As to your example, while a 50-cal does get used on people, it wasn't originally desined for that purpose.  In contrast, if you were going bear, moose, or elephant hunting, you would be unlikely to use a .223.  It was designed for a different purpose.  Could you take down one of these animals with a .223?  With the right shot(s) sure.  But, it is not the gun I'd walk out the door with if one of those were my target.

 

As to Honorblades being small, the only description we have for a known Honorblade is that of Taln's from the epilogue where the blade is described as massive.

[The Count]

As to Honorblades being small, the only description we have for a known Honorblade is that of Taln's from the epilogue where the blade is described as massive.

 

Not quite true, The Prelude also includes a brief collective descriptiion of the Honorblades.

 

IIRC it mentions them as works of art with glyphs running along their lengths.. Can't remember if they mention size / shape though.

[Shardlet]

You are right, the prelude does offer the works of art description.  But there is no mention of size.  I should have been more clear in my post.

[Bloodfalcon]

I believe that the idea that Szeth's blade was intended fo killing humans was originally my idea.  I set this forth based on the one statement in the book that said essentially 'shardblades seemed to have been designed for killing dark gods' and the quote from Szeth in the prologue which said that Szeth's 'blade was smaller than other shardblades'.  As to your example, while a 50-cal does get used on people, it wasn't originally desined for that purpose.  In contrast, if you were going bear, moose, or elephant hunting, you would be unlikely to use a .223.  It was designed for a different purpose.  Could you take down one of these animals with a .223?  With the right shot(s) sure.  But, it is not the gun I'd walk out the door with if one of those were my target.

 

As to Honorblades being small, the only description we have for a known Honorblade is that of Taln's from the epilogue where the blade is described as massive.

I suppose my response was really meaning to say "Just because it is a good size to kill humans, doesn't mean that was the intent." Dalinar's blade was hooked, but I doubt they thought "we'll make it like this so he can pull it out of Thunderclasts and rip them up." The fact that the are all so different and recognizable actually suggests that they were NOT designed with those purposes in mind. If the creator of Honorblades and Shardblades had those purposes in mind for the shape and size of all the blades,  I think we would see a little uniformity. Perhaps that blade was crafted to be small because it is easier to maneuver for Windrunners who will be all over the place and can't worry about the blade control required of such huge blades.

I see it as a potential theory, and while I wouldn't bet on it, I wouldn't dismiss it either. But it is being used as almost confirmed evidence above...

[Shardlet]

Yeah, it certainly is nothing even remotely confirmed.  It just works well as evidence for my idea that the three types of shardblades we have seen are Honorblades, radiantblades, and Szeth-blades where the Szeth-blades were provided by Odium.  If anyone is interested in this idea, see this Theory.

[hoser]

Hoser, I don't understand this 3 types of Shardblade business. Why can't Szeth's glowiness be caused by his combo power use and Honorblade use? Other people get glowy when they do the same thing. The Radiants got glowy, even Dalinar has been glowy. Kaladin was glowy minus a Shardblade. So why does glowy mean they have to be using a different type? 

Give it to me straight. I won't stand for a single pussyfoot or pussytoe here.

You win! I apparently created a confusing explanation and you beat me with a followup that baffles me (not hard to do) .  

 

I'll try to focus on something that seems relevant.    I believe that Szeth's eyes become light and change color to sapphire specifically when he has the sword in hand (independant of whether he is infusing) and revert thereafter.  I believe that when he is infusing without the sword his eyes retain their original color although they may seem like a lighter version of the original color due to his overall glow and leaking stormlight.  Do we agree on this or should we look for textual support?

 

When Taln carries what I believe to be his Honorblade, his eyes are dark. 

 

When Dalinar wields his Radiantblade, there is no mention of his eye color changing or becoming lighter (they are already light). 

 

So I see 3 different behaviors and Brandon says that we have seen 3 kinds of Shardblades. 

 

There are two mentions of his armor seeming to glow, but we don't know if he infuses or what his eyes look like.  I don't understand how this relates. 

[Bloodfalcon]

You win! I apparently created a confusing explanation and you beat me with a followup that baffles me (not hard to do) .  

 

I'll try to focus on something that seems relevant.    I believe that Szeth's eyes become light and change color to sapphire specifically when he has the sword in hand (independant of whether he is infusing) and revert thereafter.  I believe that when he is infusing without the sword his eyes retain their original color although they may seem like a lighter version of the original color due to his overall glow and leaking stormlight.  Do we agree on this or should we look for textual support?

 

When Taln carries what I believe to be his Honorblade, his eyes are dark. 

 

When Dalinar wields his Radiantblade, there is no mention of his eye color changing or becoming lighter (they are already light). 

 

So I see 3 different behaviors and Brandon says that we have seen 3 kinds of Shardblades. 

 

There are two mentions of his armor seeming to glow, but we don't know if he infuses or what his eyes look like.  I don't understand how this relates. 

I guess I don't recall which times Szeth got glowy. And the only reason the rest relates is because it is a similar if not identical effect. Szeth isn't using Plate, so it may not look the same just because it can't. I don't recall whether it is only when he has is blade out or not. Frankly though, I'm ok leaving it a mystery b/c every time someone suggest going back and looking for evidence, I remember how long that book is and my laziness beats my curiosity.

[Gloom]

First, we don't know when the Heralds were created, or how well they understood their enemy at the time of their creation. We do know that the Radiants were created later and the nature of the enemy was well known when they were formed. So the size and shape of Honorblades can vary widely because they may not have had a uniform understanding of the foe. Additionally, Jezrien was a king. He wasn't a step barbarian, he wasn't a hulking brute who would have learned the use of a massive two handed sword. He was a king, and he had likely been a trained swordsman before he became a Herald. A trained swordsman isn't going to throw away all his training to use a new type of sword that uses different forms and requires techniques that he isn't familiar with. He will stay with what he knows. Thus Jezrien, may have chosen to stick with the blade type he knew well rather than switch to a blade type that was unfamiliar to him.

 

Second is the eyes. We have no solid evidence that the change in eye color isn't a trait of Honorblades. My personal theory is that Honorblades will always be linked at some level with the Heralds they were created for. A side effect of that link may be that it changes the color of the wielders eyes to temporarily reflect that link. So if Jezrien had green eyes, then when Szeth wields Jezriens Honorblade, his eyes would turn green in a type of sympathetic reflection to its bond with Jezrien. This change is simply a side effect of accessing powers that were meant to be accessed by the original bond holder, Jezrien. If this is true, then if a lighteyes claimed Talns blade, his eyes would turn brown while he was in possession of the blade and then revert to their normal color afterwords.

 

Edit: The above theory is just that, a theory. I'm not trying to convince anyone they should take this theory as fact.

Edited November 4, 2013 by Gloom

[Shardlet]

First, we don't know when the Heralds were created, or how well they understood their enemy at the time of their creation. We do know that the Radiants were created later and the nature of the enemy was well known when they were formed. So the size and shape of Honorblades can vary widely because they may not have had a uniform understanding of the foe. Additionally, Jezrien was a king. He wasn't a step barbarian, he wasn't a hulking brute who would have learned the use of a massive two handed sword. He was a king, and he had likely been a trained swordsman before he became a Herald. A trained swordsman isn't going to throw away all his training to use a new type of sword that uses different forms and requires techniques that he isn't familiar with. He will stay with what he knows. Thus Jezrien, may have chosen to stick with the blade type he knew well rather than switch to a blade type that was unfamiliar to him.

 

You've got some very big unspoken underlying assumptions there Gloom.  You're suggesting that the enemy wasn't known when Honorblades were created, that the Heralds essentially created (or at least chose the design of their blades), and that Jezrien didn't use a two-handed sword.  The last one is the biggest assumption.  Kings can indeed be hulking brutes and step barbarians can be kings.  On top of which two handed swords were used by more that hulking brutes and step barbarians.

[Bloodfalcon]

First, we don't know when the Heralds were created, or how well they understood their enemy at the time of their creation. We do know that the Radiants were created later and the nature of the enemy was well known when they were formed. So the size and shape of Honorblades can vary widely because they may not have had a uniform understanding of the foe. Additionally, Jezrien was a king. He wasn't a step barbarian, he wasn't a hulking brute who would have learned the use of a massive two handed sword. He was a king, and he had likely been a trained swordsman before he became a Herald. A trained swordsman isn't going to throw away all his training to use a new type of sword that uses different forms and requires techniques that he isn't familiar with. He will stay with what he knows. Thus Jezrien, may have chosen to stick with the blade type he knew well rather than switch to a blade type that was unfamiliar to him.

 

Second is the eyes. We have no solid evidence that the change in eye color isn't a trait of Honorblades. My personal theory is that Honorblades will always be linked at some level with the Heralds they were created for. A side effect of that link may be that it changes the color of the wielders eyes to temporarily reflect that link. So if Jezrien had green eyes, then when Szeth wields Jezriens Honorblade, his eyes would turn green in a type of sympathetic reflection to its bond with Jezrien. This change is simply a side effect of accessing powers that were meant to be accessed by the original bond holder, Jezrien. If this is true, then if a lighteyes claimed Talns blade, his eyes would turn brown while he was in possession of the blade and then revert to their normal color afterwords.

 

Edit: The above theory is just that, a theory. I'm not trying to convince anyone they should take this theory as fact.

I think your reasoning on the size of Jezrien's Honorblade is as sound as anything else we've seen come up in these forums. I have one question though: Do we all believe there are only 10 Honorblades? Are there any lines in WoK or WoB that would indicate the Honorblades are exclusively for the Heralds? I'm asking this because I think there is a link between the Blade and it's owner, and because I have seen musings that these main characters are not only KR, but replacement Heralds for those that abandoned the Oathpact or went crazy or whatever. I think it would be awesome if these Honorspren eventually produced blades or modified blades to fit their bonded human. But please, consider the first questions without relating it to what I think would be "cool"

[Gloom]

You've got some very big unspoken underlying assumptions there Gloom.  You're suggesting that the enemy wasn't known when Honorblades were created, that the Heralds essentially created (or at least chose the design of their blades), and that Jezrien didn't use a two-handed sword.  The last one is the biggest assumption.  Kings can indeed be hulking brutes and step barbarians can be kings.  On top of which two handed swords were used by more that hulking brutes and step barbarians.

 

I'm suggesting that were taking to much for granted. We don't know if the Heralds were created because of the enemy or in anticipation of the enemy. We can pretty confidently assume that the Heralds had some kind of life prior to taking up the honor and burden of being Heralds. We can assume that swordsmanship was a known art. We can assume that the Heralds were chosen based on a number of factors, some of those positions likely required skill at arms. If the Heralds were men and women as we are led to believe by Kalaks statement in the prelude, then it isn't improbable that those candidates had preexisting skills that helped them qualify for the position they took. If I was a master of the Katana, I wouldn't be quick to trade it in for a Claymore. The opposite would also be true. I don't see why the Heralds wouldn't have input on what their blades would look like. I don't, at this time, see why the Radiants wouldn't have either.

[Beautor]

Is it possible that the reason that Szeth's shardblade only changes his eye colour when he's holding it is because the blade does not belong to him? We know the blade was given to him when he became truthless, and that the Stone Shamans will recover the blade when he dies. It is also a belief in world that obtaining a shardblade turns an individual into a lighteyes. We also know that shardblades can be loaned to another person (the Alethi king's personal shardblade and shardplate are available for duels for a fee).

 

My theory is that Szeth's eyes only change colour when he is holding the blade because he does not have a permanent bond to the blade like other shardblade holders.

[Zenith]

I think it may be that all (current) shardblades act like that; We know that very, very few darkeyes have actually gotten a shardblade, so I can see the eye color change having been misinterpreted as permanent, although it is actually only while the blade is out. To combine that with the fact that

Teft mentions that Kaladin's eyes are light during the battle of the tower, presumably when he was holding enough stormlight to glow, because neither Dalinar nor Adolin mention him having light eyes when they were coherent

I think it's plausible, to be sure. While this is probably not be the case, it's certainly an intesting thought.

[hoser]

If there is only one level of bonding, then he has it, because he can retrieve it from wherever they go when released and not willed to remain. 

 

So it seems to me that you are hypothesizing multiple levels of bonding.  Of course, if you already believe it's an honorblade, then I suppose the other level of bonding might be through the Oathpact or inherent in the relevent herald. 

[Darkness]

Just to add one thing about sword styles. I completely agree that swordplay is an art, and it is uncomfortable to change styles. And in a fight, that uncomfortable could mean 'dead'. However, we're talking about shardblades. Your style is going to change drastically if your sword suddenly doesn't lose momentum when it hits something/someone/anything but shardplate (or another shardblade). Anticipating momentum and knowing how to compensate is half the challenge of swordplay, if that's gone, you'd better re-evaluate your style pronto. This isn't to say the Heralds didn't stick to their preferences, but it wasn't because the style of fighting stayed the same and was familiar.

[Aether]

Good point, but what is the relevance? I am not sure what you are getting at.

[Gloom]

He's referring to a post I made earlier in the discussion. here

 

In that post I theorized that if the Heralds existed before Shards were created, and were competent swordsmen and women, that they would be most comfortable using blades similar to those they had used previously.

[Aether]

Ah. I remember this now. Relevance noted.

[Altonahk]

First, we don't know when the Heralds were created, or how well they understood their enemy at the time of their creation. We do know that the Radiants were created later and the nature of the enemy was well known when they were formed. So the size and shape of Honorblades can vary widely because they may not have had a uniform understanding of the foe. Additionally, Jezrien was a king. He wasn't a step barbarian, he wasn't a hulking brute who would have learned the use of a massive two handed sword. He was a king, and he had likely been a trained swordsman before he became a Herald. A trained swordsman isn't going to throw away all his training to use a new type of sword that uses different forms and requires techniques that he isn't familiar with. He will stay with what he knows. Thus Jezrien, may have chosen to stick with the blade type he knew well rather than switch to a blade type that was unfamiliar to him.

 

There is a fair amount of assumption in there. Two hander swords weren't the sole provence of big, muscle-bound thugs. I would suggest you take a look at http://www.thearma.org/about.htm as they have a nice collection of essays about the use of the Longsword. Men who could wield the "Zweihander" (that is a modern term for the truly LONG swords used in Europe) where paid twice the amount of a normal solder because they had to both unusually strong AND unusually good. The reason for the latter is improper form can throw you off balance no mater how strong you are.

Also, if you study Martial culture, they believed skill in one weapon transferred easily to another. Filipino Martial Arts believe learning to fight with a stick will teach you to fight with a blade, or even with no weapon at all. Masters of Arms in Europe said that if you could use the longsword, you could use the side sword, axe, or even a pole arm.

The biggest thing though is that a Shardblade wont work the same as a normal sword, even if it's the same size. So I'm not convinced that they would tailor the swords so much.

[Gloom]

I don't think so. Competence and excellence are two different things. Knowing how to use a sword that is different from the type you usually use in a competent manner is quite possible, but expecting to use a strange weapon with equal proficiency as one you were trained with is a completely different animal.

 

As for the assumption that two handers weren't the sole province of big, muscle-bound thugs....

 

There is a fair amount of assumption in there. Two hander swords weren't the sole provence of big, muscle-bound thugs. I would suggest you take a look at http://www.thearma.org/about.htm as they have a nice collection of essays about the use of the Longsword. Men who could wield the "Zweihander" (that is a modern term for the truly LONG swords used in Europe) where paid twice the amount of a normal solder because they had to both unusually strong AND unusually good. The reason for the latter is improper form can throw you off balance no mater how strong you are.

 

Taln is, thus far, the only Herald that has been described in such a manner.

[ryanespi]

Hey joined recently to take part in the Shardhunt, thank you, and have recently been reading a lot of the theories on the site and this is one that I enjoy.

 

I haven't noticed anybody post anything about the conversation that Jasnah overhears between Darkness and the Alethi looking man in the WoR prelude chapter.

"That creature carries my lord's own Blade.  We shouldn't have let him keep it."

 

If Darkness Is Nalan or any of the Heralds like speculation suggest.  This quote would seem to point to Szeth having an Honorblade.