Reviving a dead topic: Szeth's Shardblade is an Honourblade

[The Count]

On the subject of Shardblades, I think the most logical explanation now is:

 

Type 1 - Honorblades (Szeth has one of these)

Type 2 - Heraldic Epochs Shardblades (Seen in the visions)

Type 3 - Modern Shardblades (Seen in all non visions)

 

The obvious question is why are Type 2 and Type 3 different?

 

My guess? I still think that the Modern and Epochal Blades are the same ones. I think all the blades we see in tWoK were originally Epochal Blades (i.e. crafted / owned / wielded by the KR).

 

I still stand behind the idea that when the KR gave up their blades, they were somehow fundamentally changed in some way which is what differentiates Type 2 and Type 3 Shardblades above.

 

That is the best I have got.

 

(Asside: I was very firmly in the Szeth does not have an Honorblade camp until I read the final Eshonai Interlude. I am currently searching the web for a place to buy a chocolate hat).

[Humph]

I've been known to be out in left field at times, and I don't have the book in front of me to doublecheck, but I somehow got the impression that Darkness's (sheathed) sword was described in a way similar to Hoid's. 

 

For Honorblades -- typically they would disappear upon the Herald's death (I assume to return to the Hades place to be with the Herald).  However, in the epilogue it appears that Taln is dead, and yet the blade did not disappear.  So either he is not dead, or he was not bearing an Honorblade, or the behavior of Honorblades has changed with the death of Taln due to the Oathpact being broken.

 

If the third case, if we assume that the final shattering of the Oathpact occured at Taln's death, can we then expect that Szeth's blade and/or abilities might be changed or hampered when he arrives at the Shattered Plains?

[hoser]

On the subject of Shardblades, I think the most logical explanation now is:

 

Type 1 - Honorblades (Szeth has one of these)

Type 2 - Heraldic Epochs Shardblades (Seen in the visions)

Type 3 - Modern Shardblades (Seen in all non visions)

 

The obvious question is why are Type 2 and Type 3 different?

 

...

I was in the "Szeth has Jezrien's Honorblade" camp until the three types of Honorblades quote.  I then recanted hard and will now be admitting my error in the "I told you so" thread. 

 

I still don't buy the same blades being two different types theory.  I am stuck because I can't think of anything distinctive about any of the other Shardblades we've seen. 

 

I've.... 

However, in the epilogue it appears that Taln is dead, and yet the blade did not disappear.  So either he is not dead, or he was not bearing an Honorblade, or the behavior of Honorblades has changed with the death of Taln due to the Oathpact being broken.

 

...

I am pretty sure that Taln is not dead.  There might even be a quote.  I'll look. 

 

I'm back: In the event signings and stalking forum there are references to WoB about a Taln PoV in WoR and maybe being the focus character for a book.  That's good enough for me. 

Edited February 19, 2014 by hoser

[WeiryWriter]

Taln is not dead, he is merely unconscious.

[The Count]

He is just pining for the fjords.

[skaa]

He is just pining for the fjords.

 

Remarkable herald, the Stonesinew, isn't it, eh? Beautiful honorblade!

 

But seriously, Taln's just restin'.

Edited February 19, 2014 by skaa

[Bloodfalcon]

Taln is such a diva.

[Swimmingly]

Of course he's a diva. His title is literally "bearer of all suffering".

[Humph]

If Taln collapsed unconscious, would he have needed to intend that his sword did not disappear prior to doing so?  When shardblades are knocked out of the grasp of their owner, they then fade out and need to be re-summoned.  Is Taln's blade different in this regard? 

[Moogle]

If Taln collapsed unconscious, would he have needed to intend that his sword did not disappear prior to doing so?  When shardblades are knocked out of the grasp of their owner, they then fade out and need to be re-summoned.  Is Taln's blade different in this regard? 

 

Yes, Honorblades are different in that they disappear when the holder dies and stay around so long as he is alive.

[Daishi5]

Yes, Honorblades are different in that they disappear when the holder dies and stay around so long as he is alive.

 

Random thought.  Szeth is supposed to kill a lot of people when he takes out Dalinar.  (Assuming he has an Honorblade), Just imagine him killing the true owner of his Honorblade part of the way through his assassination attempt.  I know it won't happen, but it has a Wile E Coyote level of humor when his Blade disappears in the middle of the fight and he can't re-summon it.  

[Kersplattle]

More on the Fjords, Taln is obviously tired and shagged out after a long walk ! The only reason he was standing at the gate in the first place is that he was nailed there.

 

Listen, if I hadn't nailed him to the gate in the first place, he would have muscled up to them gates with his honourblade, and vooom !

 

Oh wait...

[Humph]

Yes, Honorblades are different in that they disappear when the holder dies and stay around so long as he is alive.

 

By that definition Szeth cannot be using an Honorblade then, as he is able to dismiss his sword and call it back at will.  If not an Honorblade, who then is the "master" whose blade Szeth holds?  It would not seem to be a Herald then -- a Dawnsinger?  a World-Hopper?  Odium?

[Moogle]

By that definition Szeth cannot be using an Honorblade then, as he is able to dismiss his sword and call it back at will.  If not an Honorblade, who then is the "master" whose blade Szeth holds?  It would not seem to be a Herald then -- a Dawnsinger?  a World-Hopper?  Odium?

 

Sorry, I phrased things poorly - Honorblades can be summoned/desummoned like regular Shardblades, but the disappear when a Herald dies with one. Because Taln's Blade stayed around, Taln is alive. Szeth more than likely has an Honorblade.

[+Aletus]

By that definition Szeth cannot be using an Honorblade then, as he is able to dismiss his sword and call it back at will.  If not an Honorblade, who then is the "master" whose blade Szeth holds?  It would not seem to be a Herald then -- a Dawnsinger?  a World-Hopper?  Odium?

 

I am grudgingly at least giving it a possibility in my mind that it's an honorblade. We only know for fact that the blades behave differently at death. Potentially, via the Taln section at the end of WotK, the blades don't inherently vanish when dropped or consciousness is lost - it is still feasible to believe that they can be dismissed and summoned at will. Carrying around a large unwieldy weapon would be problematic at best. What would happen if you kicked your heel up into it? (The images in my head right now. Let me tell you. LOL) Either way, we can't use a tiny bit of non-PoV of an Honorblade to presume that by that behavior alone, Szeth's is or isn't one. 

 

Random thought.  Szeth is supposed to kill a lot of people when he takes out Dalinar.  (Assuming he has an Honorblade), Just imagine him killing the true owner of his Honorblade part of the way through his assassination attempt.  I know it won't happen, but it has a Wile E Coyote level of humor when his Blade disappears in the middle of the fight and he can't re-summon it.  

 

IIRC, Szeth was ordered to do it brutally, or something similar to that, does that translate to killing heaps of men, or simply just making it look like a bloody mess? On my most recent re-read, I tended to fall in with the latter. 

 

Edit: LOL Moogle, sorry for essentially repeating what you said - didn't notice you posted ahead of me. 

Edited February 19, 2014 by Blackwood

[The Count]

Sorry, I phrased things poorly - Honorblades can be summoned/desummoned like regular Shardblades, but the disappear when a Herald dies with one. Because Taln's Blade stayed around, Taln is alive. Szeth more than likely has an Honorblade.

I think the point here is that, when the Heralds died in the past, the swords disappeared because they weren't actually dead - just transported to damnation.

The sword, presumably, followed their soul.

The real question for me is this:

If Szeth has a Honorblade (we think probably yes at this point) why did his blade disappear when Gavilar hit him in the prologue but Taln's blade fell to the floor when he fell unconscious in the epilogue.

Seemingly two different actions by the Honorblades.

Maybe because Taln is a herald who did not give up his blade? So it behaves differently?

[skaa]

What if Taln's Honorblade didn't vanish simply because it was touching stone at the time?

His muscles glistened, wet as if he'd just swum a great distance. To his side, he carried a massive Shardblade, point down, sticking about a finger's width into the stone, his hand on the hilt. The Blade reflected torchlight; it was long, narrow, and straight, shaped like an enormous spike.

...

The figure ignored the question. He stepped forward, dragging his Shardblade, as if it weighed a great deal. It cut the rock behind him, leaving a tiny groove in the stone. The figure walked unsteadily, and nearly tripped. He steadied himself against the gate door, and a lock of hair moved from the side of his face, exposing his eyes. Dark brown eyes, like a man of the lower class. Those eyes were wild, dazed.

...

He slumped forward, hitting the rocky ground, Shardblade clattering down behind him. It did not vanish. The guards inched forward. One prodded the man with the butt of his spear.

It appears that even when a Shardbearer lets go of his Blade, for as long as it is touching stone (not even rammed into it), it won't turn into mist and vanish.

So when Szeth dropped Jezrien's Honorblade after Gavilar slammed him in the face, the Blade naturally vanished as it should. It wasn't touching stone at the time.

Edited February 22, 2014 by skaa

[Duskshard]

Maybe it's a case of Honorblades working differently for the Heralds that they actually belong to, maybe the blades didn't just vanish when their real owners dropped them but they actually had to be dismissed. 

 

Maybe this is also true for the KR's shardblades, maybe their blades were summoned and dismissed at will too. All the blades we've seen turn to mist when dropped have been in the possession of people who don't truly own them. 

[skaa]

All the blades we've seen turn to mist when dropped have been in the possession of people who don't truly own them. 

 

That is interesting. On the other hand, whenever we see someone who intentionally wants to keep his Shardblade from disappearing when he lets go (e.g. the Heralds, Dalinar, Sadeas in the released WoR chapter), we see him ram his Blade into stone. Doing that prevents the Blade (whether it's an Honorblade or a regular Shardblade) from vanishing. That is certain, no maybes of what ifs about it.

 

Now, we see Talenel letting go of his Honorblade, most likely unintentionally (as he was unconscious), while it was touching stone, and it does not vanish. Is it such a big leap of logic to suggest that stone (or perhaps anything associated with Talus) is the key element here, and not intent or Blade type?

 

Edit: Apparently Salinor let his Shardblade "slip from his fingers" while he was lying on the ground. The ground was covered with sand, though, and I don't know if sand can be considered to have an Essence of Talus (I think it does; sand is just tiny bits of rock, after all).

Edited February 22, 2014 by skaa

[Duskshard]

There's the scene where Dalinar smashes Elokars wrist on the stone floor making him release his shardblade. I find it hard to believe that between having his wrist smashed to the floor and him letting go of the blade that none of the 6' blade was touching the stone floor. Yet it still vanished.

 

What you have is a theory Skaa, and an interesting one, but it's premature to say that it's certain, no maybes, what if's about it. 

[skaa]

What you have is a theory Skaa, and an interesting one, but it's premature to say that it's certain, no maybes, what if's about it. 

 

Oh, I wasn't calling my theory certain, just the fact that actually embedding the Blade in stone will make it stay put. Or are you disputing that? Anyway, my theory goes further than that by saying that you don't even have to embed it in stone, that it simply has to be on the ground when you let go of it. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

About that Elokhar scene, the force of his wrist being smashed on the floor could've knocked the Shardblade upwards into the air; it would have turned to mist before landing on the ground (I verified this experimentally by whacking my own wrist on the floor while holding something relatively light). In Salinor's case, he definitely wasn't throwing his Shardblade upwards, but was rather letting it slip onto the sand.

Edited February 22, 2014 by skaa

[QuantumHarmonix]

I think the disappearing when dropped might be a property of all borrowed blades, whereby they try to return to the original owner. Modern shardblade's original owners are dead, so they can't return. This would let the blade be recalled by the person who last bonded the blade. A herald's blade wouldn't disappear until the herald is sent to damnation, the blade then returns to the herald in damnation. A borrowed herald's honorblade would then try to go back to its herald, but since it was abandoned it can't return to them. This would let the one borrowing the honorblade re-summon the blade.  

[Daishi5]

My theory is that a Herald had to be involved in Szeth getting an Honorblade.  He seems to be way too skilled in lashings, and knowledgeable about lashings to have just picked it up on his own, especially knowing the names of the lashings.  

 

My theory is that someone, probably a Herald, bound him to the blade in someway, and thus also bound him to be tortured like a Herald. He is forced to carry the blade and do whatever his owner's tell him to do because it will invariably force him to commit atrocities.  This person also probably trained Szeth, which explains Szeth's skill and knowledge, so that Szeth will be more successful.  Szeth thinks to himself that it is better to be tortured than to cease to exist, and he also thinks that Mr. T is wrong about his responsibility, Szeth bears the sin of all the crimes he has committed.  

 

If I am right, it might also answer why Szeth can summon his blade if it is an honorblade.

[Aether]

Permit me to revisit this topic just to say I told you so:

 

I told you so! 

[Aether]

Did we ever reach a consensun on what three types of Shardblades we saw in the way of Kings, by the way?

 

mycoltbug

Is there any ramifications to the holder of a shard blade for using a blade in a manner that it wasn't intended?

Brandon Sanderson
Depends on the type of Shardblade. (You have seen three different kinds in TWoK.) For most, no. For some, most certainly.
<source>

I suggest that it is 1. Honourblades, 2. Dead Radiantblades and 3. Radiantblades. The first we saw in Szeth's PoV chapters, the second all over the place, and the third in two of Dalinar's visions ("Starfalls" and "Highway to the Sun").