Humph

I believe ultimately all concepts of morality are based in the notion of law/lawgiver. However I think that there is a hierarchy to the multiple levels of law. 1. First, we have the Divine Law, rooted in the nature of the Ultimate Being. Dalinar strikes me as a character in the book who would be most willing to admit moral and right action to be ultimately based on this level of law. 2. From thence would derive the Natural Law, which would be the created participation in the Divine Law by virtue of being created/made as a certain kind of being. Certain people -- atheists such as Jasnah for instance -- might hold to this level of law while denying the existence of Divine law. Others (Kaladin for instance) might hold to this level without outright denial of the Divine, but with an inchoate or incomplete view of the Divine. 3. Creatures with intelligence can then use their reason to issue edicts and structures that then have the force of law (this level of law would be known as human positive law, i.e. law as originating from the decrees of human agents). At this level, we can run into conflicts between human laws and the natural law and/or Divine laws, and two categories of response are possible: to uphold human positive law above and/or in contradiction to Divine/natural law concepts [which is commonly seen to be Nalan's general view, although I think there is something different going on there], or to uphold the priority of natural and/or Divine laws above human positive law [the Sylphrena view]. Sanderson gives multiple views of morality throughout the book, but no evidence that such multiplicity of views was foundational to the KR system. I could certainly see Truthwatchers or Lightweavers or Edgedancers for instance to have individual members with quite varying view of the relationship/existence of the three level of law. Others (those bonded to Honorspren) would seem to have an intrinsic self-selection towards one view, e.g. upholding the primacy of natural law above human positive law. So while I do think there might be some general form of self-selection into a few KR orders based on one's view of the relationship of human positive law to natural/Divine law, I don't see the KR orders as a whole being based upon the notion that there is no perfect morality system.

You mean, other than the nerd carapace pocket-protector for pens and pencils?

I'm just waiting for some crazy Stone Shaman from Shinovar to come and start the Church of the Stone, whose motto will be: "In the Church of the Stick, you get stuck, but in the Church of the Stone, you get Stoned". I'm guessing they'll probably have a Weedspren as their symbol.

Unfortunately, the "ellipses" only work in the map projection. They would not work on the globe of Roshar. This is because, as one moves from the equator, the map gets more and more stretched out to project a 3-D portion of a globe onto a 2-D projection.

Fractal = mathematical "Pattern" ....... Cryptics .....

Zahel thought it important for Kaladin to surmise the reason why the practice ground was flooded -- it was to the sand by flooding and stirring and letting the crud flow off. Perhaps the Desolations are somewhat analagous, needed to reset the balance and harmony between the physical, cognitive and spiritual realms on Roshar. With Honor dead this time around, the situation might be a little different now ....

We oppose this cult and our numbers are legion!! We have overthrown Stick and burned her to Ash. She who was formerly Shalash the Stick has now repented of her ways and is going around destroying all the Statues and idols of Stick! Woe to you Jezrien and Kalak, who lack faith in Ash! You will be next!

Wasn't Tyn's former apprentice "Si" ........ hmmm food for speculation here.

Let's tell them to Stick It!!

What's with all this Schtick?

My secret pet theory is that Jasnah was going to have Taravangian bumped off. We learn later in the book that he was present at the festivities that night.

Straw isn't there so much as a binding material -- although it could have some aspect of that function -- but is primarily there to provide tensile strength. In similar vein, in some areas of the world, bamboo is used to reinforce concrete as it serves analagously in providing tensile strength the way steel rebar does. I would imagine that Rosharians could use plant/animal fibers in the same role -- the "silk" they have I saw elsewhere on these forums is derived from some sea organisms. Silk on earth has great tensile strength.

We're in a world where Newtonian physics don't really ultimately apply, as the meaning of "same direction" would have a different meaning on Roshar than on Earth. Replacing one lashing with another lashing normal to it would still retain the "same direction" for purposes of momentum for the surgebinder. The surgebinder's intention to oppose one lashing to another would then the creator of "different direction" for such purposes. That and actually colliding with an object (which presumably has its own ideas on the matter, ha ha!).

Void glyphs have rotational symmetry, but surge glyphs have mirror symmetry. Not sure if much can be drawn forth from that other than it appears to be a way of grouping them in different classes while still maintaining the note of symmetry as being fundamental to Roshar.

What would be the Rosharian equivalent of atium-burning? Hmmm .... I wonder if stormlight shining through a prism would split into 16 (or 10 for Roshar) different types of colors?? And that a different specific color frequency of stormlight is actually 'burned' by the various KR orders?

Hey! A 1,000 page long musical score. I can see it now .... Kaladin with his Rambo headband banging on a set of drums with his spears as drum sticks. Shallan will of course be playing the Symbols (when not trying to convert Kaladin's drumsticks to fire) with Hoid on Flute. Jasnah won't be there as she has something against Jam sessions from her past. And when Mraize puts his lips to his trombone and blows, man, he just kills. Adolin and Renarin are in the choir of course, since Dalinar has instilled in them the desire to dress and act like Choir Boys; Adolin doesn't mind though as he can now wear that cool spiffy Azish choral uniform. Szeth is playing the violin (he would have been bass viola, but seems to have thoroughly de-based himself by his actions). Taravangian -- no surprise here -- is playing the Bells. And the conductor? With now two arms, who could it be other than Maestro Lopen?

A possibility, yes. Of the top of my head, though, I can't recall any text that says Hoid had white hair; I'll have to hunt through the books tonight after work. How do we know how long Mraize has been around this time? We can't assume that the objects in the cave were necessarily collected by Mraize himself. If Mraize were the one to arise out of the Horneater pool, that would put his return at least a few years ago, while Rock was still gallivanting around his village.

I'm of the opinion that it is Mraize who is actually Talanel. It was he, and not Hoid, who popped up out of the Horneater lake (his white hair vs.Hoid's black hair). This could explain why the lake is death to anyone except its guardians -- it contains the portal to Herald Hell. This could also place the Horneaters (as a people) as possibly guardians/squires to the Heralds, which could be a foundation for explaining Rock's ability to see and interact with spren. Mraize also shows evidence of great torture with his broken fingers. Despite having a babsk, it seems abundantly clear that Mraize is not subservient to anyone. He gives the impression of running the show of the Ghostbloods. His existence as a Herald would account for his pre-eminence among them. Mraize's leadership role vis-a-vis his relationship to Iyatil is somewhat problematic, but could be explained by postulating that perhaps she also is a Herald. Shallan is on multiple occasions is surprised by Iyatil's ability to sneak up on her -- could Iyatil have access to Lightweaving or Transportation as a result of being a Herald? Mraize also seems to evidence familiarity with the layout of Urithiru, at least enough where he can get ahead of exploration parties and set up an "ambush" for meeting Shallan. This could be explained by the fact that he's been there before. Mraize/Ghostbloods seem also to have greater/deeper knowledge of what is actually happening than Taravangian does. This again could be explained by him "having been there and done that" many times before. I think it is clear that the Madman from Kholinar is also a Herald, on account of his super-fast reflexes and his reflexive impulse to protect those around him (e.g. incident of Amaram with the dart). I would guess that he is Jezrien who perhaps has snapped with his shame at walking away from his obligation as Herald before, who now realizes that a new Desolation is coming, and has transferred his identity to Taln, the one Herald who was faithful. Having abandoned his Heraldblade long ago, he has since obtained a Shardblade. Another (more deliciously speculative) scenario is that the monster of Tukar long ago captured the drunk Jezrien off the streets and has been torturing him for a few years now and has thoroughly broken him and pounded into his addled brain that he is now Taln; then giving him a shardblade he has loosed him on the world --- eerily similar to the way Szeth was loosed upon the world by the Stone Shamans. This would shed a new light on why Hoid calls him "confused". It would also explain why the Herald has only a Shardblade. Some questions that would then arise: Why has Jasnah assasinated some of the Ghostbloods? Does she know of their relation to Talanel? Who founded the Ghostbloods? How long ago? What is the purpose of the Ghostbloods?

White hair .... but isn't Hoid described elsewhere as having black hair? Lightweaving Hair Club perhaps?

Makes a lot of sense. So much sense that I should have seen it from the start! I've only been able to spot one more possible anomaly -- is that a latent thumbprint on the black and white map just south of Thaylenah?

I'll have to find these other ones. I only spotted five.

I don't know how to upload a file or thumbnail, or else I would. I took the JPEG image of the Roshar map, converted it to PDF and circled the areas -- could anyone provide pointers of how I might upload a thumbnail? Basically, just to the left of the "A" in Aimar is a circle with what conceivably could be a "4" next to it. Above this circle you will see another faint circle, past the coast of Aimar. On the right side of the map, start from the H in "Hills". Just off the coast is another circle with an adjacent squiggle that is similar to a "3". In the archipelago above this area, from the second big island, about 45 degrees to the NE is another circle. All of these are fairly faint. They are atypical of what is generally used to show the ocean. They are certainly not visible on maps in the printed books from what I can see; I saw these only on the JPEG file that someone earlier in the Topic posted a link to. While the circles are definitely there, the interpretation of various squiggles as numbers is not certain at all.

In the sea to the right of the map, you will see faint circles marked "1", "2" and "3". In the sea to the left, you will find circles marked "3" and "4" ("4" is near Aimar, and "3" above it). A line connecting the "3"s on either side passes through the Purelake. A line connecting the 2 and the 4 intersect the "3" line in the eastern (i.e. right-side) of the Purelake. Near these numbers on either side of the map you can also see remnants of a circular/elliptical border, very faint. From what I can tell, the vertical centerline of this border will pass through the intersection of the 3-3 and 2-4 lines. Hence the center of the map is laid out to be somewhere in the Purelake -- possibly the location of the Tower in Dalinar's vision? The numbers around the faint border suggest to me that this map is laid out on a dome similar to a Planetarium. Instead of locating stars, it locates land. If we start from the point that land/water is flip-flopped from Roshar to Shadesmar, I'm guessing that this map is from a Planetarium (Terratarium ?) located inside Shadesmar (in other words, the Sky for Shadesmar is actually Roshar). Perhaps Jasnah swiped it in her sojourn there or Pattern provided it to Shallan?

It is a different bond. Bridge 4 views itself as connected with Kaladin, and hence they share a bond with him. This mirrors Kaladin's bond with Syl, and participates in it at one remove. In other words, how they view themselves (cognitive level) has a real effect on them in the physical realm (inhaling stormlight). I can definitely see Shallan's followers developing that same level of bonding. I don't think every order of KR will have the same potential to have squires, though. Orders like Truthweavers I would suspect would have few, if any, squires, since, acting in the background as they do, they would tend to have fewer opportunities to inspire such a squire bond.

One thing I notice is that the Purelake is supposedly only wading depth. Yet in Shadesmar its complement is shown as mountains. One would think it would be shown as a plain or flat.