The Ring

[Argent]

This is the specific post I was referring to. 

[Oudeis]

No one is mentioning Nohadon in Dalinar's vision... he expressly says, and I'll find the direct quote when I get home, that it's a shame not all spren are as choosy as honorspren. I believe this to be a heavy implication that not all Spren choose their bond the same way. Thus, the Ring, whatever it is, likely only influences a sub-set of Spren, not all of them. I could be misinterpreting the facts, however. I am eager to hear how anyone thinks this affects any of the theories so far.

[Gloom]

No, your not misinterpreting facts. It's highly unlikely in my opinion that Syl wast part of the Ring. No one protected her memories. The Ring is unlikely to have any influence over Cryptics either.

[Meg]

No, your not misinterpreting facts. It's highly unlikely in my opinion that Syl wast part of the Ring. No one protected her memories. The Ring is unlikely to have any influence over Cryptics either.

 

Part of The Ring? You mean, like Wyndle (if he was part, he also could have been chosen without being involved in The Ring)? Either way, I'm quite sure Syl as a whole didn't leave Roshar nor the Physical Realm.

My idea is that she "barbarized" and thus lost her mind/consciousness (perhaps because the lost of a bond also made her loose the connection between the Physical and the Cognitive Realm). 

[Gloom]

I believe that was Syl in the Physical for a very long time, but Wyndle put a seed of doubt in my mind when he mentioned that the Ring helped protect his memories when he was crossing over from the Cognitive to the Physical. If Honor spren don't have that kind of protection, then when they arrive in the Physical they will be memory impaired after leaving their home realm. I still believe that Syl was little more than a windspren since the Recreance, but I would no longer be willing to bet on it.

[The Rooster]

I believe that was Syl in the Physical for a very long time, but Wyndle put a seed of doubt in my mind when he mentioned that the Ring helped protect his memories when he was crossing over from the Cognitive to the Physical. If Honor spren don't have that kind of protection, then when they arrive in the Physical they will be memory impaired after leaving their home realm. I still believe that Syl was little more than a windspren since the Recreance, but I would no longer be willing to bet on it.

 

In further books it will be important to see how many others start attracting Honorspren and how quickly those spren come to self realization.  If the process seems to be speeding up compared to Syl's journey there may be a distinction between the path even Honorspren take to Nahel bonds.  Maybe Syl was special because she crossed over while others were just hanging latent in the Physical Realm or vice-versa.

Edited November 19, 2013 by agrooster

[marianmi]

Wyndle is cultivationspren. The Ring follows Cultivation, after a fashion. Syl is honorspren. Honor is shattered.

 

1) It's possible that, when Honor was shattered, honorspren became "lost" in the physical.

2) It's possible that, at the day of recreance, the spren of the KR that severed their bonds remained in the physical, and with no connection, lost themselves in the physical (Syl implies that she gets consciousness through the Nahel bond).

3) It's equally possible that Syl came from the cognitive for Kaladin (the spren of the KR died at the recreance), and she lost her consciousness on the way, w/o the Ring's protection.

 

I think these 3 are the best candidates. Out of them, I find 1) or 2) most likely.

 

Also, Nohadon's comment that "not all spren are as discerning as honorspren" may have been made before The Ring was created. Given that cultivation spren are not "as discerning" when choosing a person to bond with, maybe during the KR times, the KR gave them the idea to form The Ring. Instead of the cultivation spren choosing a person by themselves to bond with, The Ring will do that instread, with cultivationspren members voting on it. Thus, you have a lower possibility of a cultivationspren bonding someone "not worthy". So The Ring may not have existed at the time of Nohadon's vision.

 

 

EDIT: It's implied that the KR were a surprise even for The Almighty. Also, what's different about the KR, is that they are more powerful than the surgebinders because of their .. character. Actually, I would say because of their actions, but they act that way because of their character. So maybe at the founding of the KR Nohadon put in place a system that would guarantee that only "worthy" people are chosen for Nahel bonds. Obviously, this requires "cooperation" and "organization" from sprens as well. Hence, The Ring - for cultivationspren. Honorspren don't need this, since they are "discerning" - or rather, they are already attracted by attributes that an "unworthy" person will never exhibit. This leaves us with the cryptics. Maybe they have a similar system as The Ring - maybe that's why Shallan saw multiple cryptics - they were the equivalent of The Ring, "assesing" her. After she passed, she could make a bond with one.

Edited November 19, 2013 by marianmi

[Meg]

Wyndle is cultivationspren. The Ring follows Cultivation, after a fashion. Syl is honorspren. Honor is shattered.  (1)

 

 

EDIT: It's implied that the KR were a surprise even for The Almighty. (2)

 

(1) Do we already know for sure that Wyndle is 100% of Cultivation

 

(2) Where is this implied?

[hoser]

I really like the bulk of the above post by marianmi.  I would like to make one minor point with respect to the below:

1) It's possible that, when Honor was shattered, honorspren became "lost" in the physical.

Wyndle talks about honorspren coming to see her crystal structures.  That would imply that some honorspren have been in the cognitive realm recently, so 1) would refer to at most some of the honorspren IMO. 

 

As for Wyndle being Cultivation based, off the top of my head, the plantlike appearance, ability to grow seeds and the references to mother all point strongly in that direction. 

[WeiryWriter]

(1) Do we already know for sure that Wyndle is 100% of Cultivation

 

(2) Where is this implied?

 

(1) This has not been Confirmed

 

(2) This comes from here

Edited November 19, 2013 by WeiryWriter

[marianmi]

I really like the bulk of the above post by marianmi.  I would like to make one minor point with respect to the below:

Wyndle talks about honorspren coming to see her crystal structures.  That would imply that some honorspren have been in the cognitive realm recently, so 1) would refer to at most some of the honorspren IMO. 

 

As for Wyndle being Cultivation based, off the top of my head, the plantlike appearance, ability to grow seeds and the references to mother all point strongly in that direction. 

 

1) yes, what I meant was the honorspren that were in physical realm - they would have been stuck and lost in physical.

2) about Wyndle, while not Confirmed by WoB, there are many strong signs that he's 100% cultivation, like hoser said above.

 

Thanks @WeiryWriter for the link.

[Meg]

(1) This has not been Confirmed

 

(2) This comes from here

 

Thanks Weiry.

 

I don't read this scene as if the Almighty was surprised about the Knights Radiant -- if anything he was surprised about how they were formed and the Nahel bond.

I might have misunderstood that sentence "It's implied that the KR were a surprise even for The Almighty." as I understand it like "The Almighty was surprised about the existence of the Knights Radiant." And we know that the Almighty knew about them:

 

The figure was silent for a moment. Then he spoke in a clear, crisp voice. “Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination. Speak again the ancient oaths and return to men the Shards they once bore.” He turned to Dalinar, meeting his eyes. “The Knights Radiant must stand again.”

TWoK Ch. 75

 

I always understood this part as the Almighty did know about the Knights Radiant and also what they were and their tasks. He told Dalinar the First Ideal, so he knew about the Ideals.

 

 

btw: We never got a better transcription of this short scene?

[WeiryWriter]

I might have misunderstood that sentence "It's implied that the KR were a surprise even for The Almighty." as I understand it like "The Almighty was surprised about the existence of the Knights Radiant." And we know that the Almighty knew about them:

btw: We never got a better transcription of this short scene?

 

I think you are misunderstanding it, I think they are trying to say "the formation of the Knights Radiant was a surprise to the Almighty" meaning he did not play a role in creating them, the spren did it of their own volition.

 

and no we never got a recording/transcription of that scene, Brandon hasn't read it since.

[marianmi]

I thought that he was referring both to the fact that surgebinders organized themselves in KR, and that KR had greater power than surgebinders.

I know second one should be known by a shard, but if that was true then maybe the Almighty have had a hand in creating KR before Nohadon. Hence, the surprise: KR had greater power than surgebinders.

[Shardlet]

And thus, it is almost maddening to not have the remainder of that scene.  Here's to hoping that it is part 7 of the Steelhunt.  We are theorizing based on a recollection filtered by someone's perceptions.

[The Rooster]

And thus, it is almost maddening to not have the remainder of that scene.  Here's to hoping that it is part 7 of the Steelhunt.  We are theorizing based on a recollection filtered by someone's perceptions.

 

Not very Veristitalian at all.

[Shardlet]

It is like trying to figure out the picture of a puzzle where the only piece you have has been sucked on and chewed up by the baby.

[Daishi5]

I believe that was Syl in the Physical for a very long time, but Wyndle put a seed of doubt in my mind when he mentioned that the Ring helped protect his memories when he was crossing over from the Cognitive to the Physical. If Honor spren don't have that kind of protection, then when they arrive in the Physical they will be memory impaired after leaving their home realm. I still believe that Syl was little more than a windspren since the Recreance, but I would no longer be willing to bet on it.

I don't think Syl was ever a windspren, she was just mistaken for one.  All of her pranks were making things stick to other things.  It seems implied that she was making the spheres stick to Kaladin when he was giving them to the surgeon, and his bowl when he was in the slave caravan.  She was basically bonding things the whole time.

 

Sudden though: I wonder if Syl was mistaken for a windspren because a lot of windspren bind things.  Maybe the windspren are honorspren that have been called windspren because they follow the winds of the highstorms.  Or in other words, the honorspren are following what is left of Honor, but the people of Roshar only see the winds so they mistake honorspren for windspren.  

[Arook]

Just because wyndle calls night watcher / Cultivation mother does not mean father could not be honor.

[Gloom]

I don't think Syl was ever a windspren, she was just mistaken for one.  All of her pranks were making things stick to other things.  It seems implied that she was making the spheres stick to Kaladin when he was giving them to the surgeon, and his bowl when he was in the slave caravan.  She was basically bonding things the whole time.

 

Sudden though: I wonder if Syl was mistaken for a windspren because a lot of windspren bind things.  Maybe the windspren are honorspren that have been called windspren because they follow the winds of the highstorms.  Or in other words, the honorspren are following what is left of Honor, but the people of Roshar only see the winds so they mistake honorspren for windspren.  

 

Syl actually probably was a Windspren at some point in her existence, but you are correct in that she has been Honorspren for far longer than Kaladins lifetime. We have WoB that Honorspren like Syl and Windspren are related, but they aren't the same thing.

 

TheFinisher4Ever ()

Are all wind spren really just unbonded honor spren?

Brandon Sanderson

No, they are cousins to one another, but not exactly the same thing.

[Windrunner]

Syl actually probably was a Windspren at some point in her existence, but you are correct in that she has been Honorspren for far longer than Kaladins lifetime. We have WoB that Honorspren like Syl and Windspren are related, but they aren't the same thing.

Just out of curiosity, why do you think that Syl was probably once a windspren?

[Gloom]

Just a hunch. They are related, so I think it likely that they are related because Windrunner spren are basically the same thing as windspren with enough investiture to become splinters. So basically they are the same, but the amount of investiture they carry differs greatly. I'd compare it to the difference between the Parsh and the Parshendi. Same basic thing, but drastically different behaviors due to investiture.