theory Magical Technology on Scadrial

[Asperity he/him]

All I know is technology is very different in the South (from what Sanderson wrote in my copy of AoL) but I feel like that has to be an obvious given since Allomancy may not "exist" down there plus they're more exposed to the Sun, right? Or whatever the Cosmere version of the Sun is in that specific galaxy. I'm rambling.

[Araris Valerian he/him]

I feel like discussing hemalurgy in relation to southern Scadrial is pointless because there is almost no way that they could have gotten their hands on it. TLR learned directly from Ruin at the Well. I saw something mentioning that you have to intend to steal someone's power to be successful, which makes sense. Since hemalurgy is a universal magic, if you could discover it by accident then other shard worlds would have it by now as well perhaps.

[Oudeis he/him]

I feel like discussing hemalurgy in relation to southern Scadrial is pointless because there is almost no way that they could have gotten their hands on it. TLR learned directly from Ruin at the Well. I saw something mentioning that you have to intend to steal someone's power to be successful, which makes sense. Since hemalurgy is a universal magic, if you could discover it by accident then other shard worlds would have it by now as well perhaps.

 

First, I cannot find the quote right now, but I think there is WoB that Alendi was a natural Seeker with at least one hemalurgic spike granting him additional allomantic bronze. The explanation is that Ruin was able to introduce some hemalurgy into the world, to increase the number of people he could influence. It also was his way of finding someone who could find the Well and hopefully be tricked into releasing him.

 

If so, this means at least some hemalurgy might potentially be available to the Southern people.

 

Second, I don't know if anyone has ever asked Mr. Sanderson this, but I believe the metal of Scadrial is specific metal. I think if a Lurcher were sent to Nalthis, found some pure iron, shaved off some and ate it, he would not be able to ironpull. Similarly, I think hemalurgy requires metal to be from Scadrial in order to be capable of charging a spike. I have no evidence to support my claim, but we do know that Shards must "attach" themselves to the world in order to Invest it, and I think the metal of the planet were the original anchors for Ruin and Preservation. I could be wrong, but I also think an emerald from Nalthis would not hold stormlight (and might be quite the novelty on Roshar, actually...)

 

EDIT: Because I completely failed to finish my first point.

Edited November 4, 2013 by Darnam

[Araris Valerian he/him]

Since Brandon said that the Cosmere has real world physics I assume that atoms and such are treated the same way as well. Perhaps Scadrian metals have a cognitive aspect that allows them to be the key to Allomancy. However, if Demoux or Hoid have access to non-atium powers then they probably would find it inconvenient to travel to Scadrial every night to refill their metals.

[Oudeis he/him]

Since Brandon said that the Cosmere has real world physics I assume that atoms and such are treated the same way as well. Perhaps Scadrian metals have a cognitive aspect that allows them to be the key to Allomancy. However, if Demoux or Hoid have access to non-atium powers then they probably would find it inconvenient to travel to Scadrial every night to refill their metals.

 

I agree that with an electron tunneling microscope, you would never find any difference between Scadrian iron, Nalthian iron, or for that matter iron as found on good old Earth. I still do think that there's something Invested about Scadrian iron (if anything I personally believe it's Spiritual, but it could well be Cognitive) that makes it allomantically active, whereas iron from Sel would not be.

 

I'd also imagine that a worldhopper who planned to use his powers extensively would bring several bars of metal with him when he traveled. Presumably they're bringing things like clothes, personal effects, maybe that Alethi takeaway they can't live without. Several bars of metal represent quite a long time of burning.

[Araris Valerian he/him]

I can see how that makes sense. I think in HoA someone said that a rock was made of equal parts of Preservation and Ruin, which could be why metals on scadrial are Allomantically active; they came from preservation directly. However, WoB says that hemalurgy is universal, which wouldn't really be relevant unless metals on other worlds were also usable allomantically. Since Hemalurgy and Allomancy all use the same focus for their power, allomancy would also then be able to function with metals from other worlds.

Edited November 4, 2013 by Araris Valerian

[Oudeis he/him]

 However, WoB says that hemalurgy is universal, which wouldn't really be relevant unless metals on other worlds wre also usable allomantically.

 

I disagree with this premise. I think he's saying that it's universal, in that Scadrian iron could be made into a spike and stabbed into anyone on ANY Shardworld, and it would become charged with physical might. I do not agree that he means, all iron on any world can be used to kill someone, and gain physical strength. However, I don't believe there's any official word either way, so for now all anyone can do is speculate. This might be a good Question for Mr. Sanderson; since he's been willing to answer about hemalurgy's universality, he might be willing to clarify this otherwise somewhat minor point.

 

If we ever do hear that any metal on any Shardworld can potentially be used hemalurgically, I will concede that it very likely means that they can also be used allomantically.

[Kurkistan he/him]

Actually, he's close-mouthed about that too. I can't find it, but I could have sworn we recently (very recently) got a RAFO on the composition of spikes.

[Shardlet he/him]

This question was one that Fog was kind enough to ask for me in an attempt to round out my series of hemalurgy questions.  It starts here with me asking Fog to ask the question and ends here with Fog's report.

 

 

Q: Could you use metal from planets other than Scadrial in making functional hemalurgic spikes?

A: RAFO

 

Black flagged at the last lap.

Edited November 13, 2013 by Shardlet

[Sevi]

Wow, that's a very good approach.

I've seen it being suggested somewhere that the Scadrian equivalent of gemstones would be Hemalurgic spikes - and that seems even more well-coined. You people never stop surprising me in the most pleasant way.
I'll have some of my own thoughts when I finish browsing through the whole topic

 

EDIT:

@up, I think it would, given that WoB on hemalurgy is "it's cosmere universal". The RAFO though could be a hint of this actually going to happen, which is nice.
IMHO a good twist would be for forgein metals to steal the attributes connected to the metal's homeworld - like i.e. Roshar's steel stealing a Shardblade instead of physical allomancy. Is there a theory on that already?

Edited December 23, 2013 by Sevi

[Elementalist he/him]

Instead of being composed of half Ruin and half Preservation- as, say, a rock would be-...

This quote has some significance here, I think. I agree that if you looked at Scadrian iron- which would be "composed of half Ruin and half Preservation"- under a microscope, it would be identical to iron everywhere else, or in realmatic terms, identical in the Physical Realm. It likely thinks of itself the same as well (though we can't know this for sure), so it would likely be identical in the Cognitive Realm. Thus, when Sazed says it is composed of half Ruin and half Preservation, he must be referring to its Spiritual aspect. Scadrian metal is fundamentally different in the Spiritual Realm. This means that Scadrian metals would work for Hemalurgy on any world, as their Spiritual aspect would still contain Ruin on any world. However, metal anywhere else (not made by Ruin and Preservation) would not have the Spiritual properties required for Hemalurgy.

At least, that's how I understand it. Any thoughts?

[Swimmingly he/him]

I think that, like aluminum, other metals have magically significant qualities even when not charged, part of a spike, or burnt by an allomancer. They have to be quite pure to work like this, and may need to be treated in a certain way - perhaps aluminum's magic nullifying properties are just the most obvious.

 

They are probably divided into qualities similar to the other arts, such as Physical, Cognitive, Spiritual for Feruchemy; Physical, Enhancement, Mental, Temporal for Allomancy; etc.

 

Given that these properties work in alloys as well, it's possible that purity is not absolutely necessary for these effects.

[Oudeis he/him]

This quote has some significance here, I think. I agree that if you looked at Scadrian iron- which would be "composed of half Ruin and half Preservation"- under a microscope, it would be identical to iron everywhere else, or in realmatic terms, identical in the Physical Realm. It likely thinks of itself the same as well (though we can't know this for sure), so it would likely be identical in the Cognitive Realm. Thus, when Sazed says it is composed of half Ruin and half Preservation, he must be referring to its Spiritual aspect. Scadrian metal is fundamentally different in the Spiritual Realm. This means that Scadrian metals would work for Hemalurgy on any world, as their Spiritual aspect would still contain Ruin on any world. However, metal anywhere else (not made by Ruin and Preservation) would not have the Spiritual properties required for Hemalurgy.

At least, that's how I understand it. Any thoughts?

 

Yes. This, this, all of this. I absolutely think that this is how it works. This explains why it's so important for a Shard to Invest not just in the people of a world, but in the planet itself. I also think it would make worldhopping far more interesting.

[Morsk he/him]

I think of it basically the opposite way. Ruin is a universal principle, and I see investing in Scadrial as changing the way Ruin works everywhere, and making Hemallurgy possible everywhere. And I think it's the reason magic requires intent in the cosmere. That way when a Shard literally changes the nature of reality by investing in one planet instead of another, they aren't going to break how stars and organic chemistry and who-knows-what works. That would just be a mess. Whatever they change will always involve intent.

[Oudeis he/him]

I think of it basically the opposite way. Ruin is a universal principle, and I see investing in Scadrial as changing the way Ruin works everywhere, and making Hemallurgy possible everywhere. And I think it's the reason magic requires intent in the cosmere. That way when a Shard literally changes the nature of reality by investing in one planet instead of another, they aren't going to break how stars and organic chemistry and who-knows-what works. That would just be a mess. Whatever they change will always involve intent.

 

That doesn't make any sense. We know that Odium has to Invest in Roshar to affect Roshar; if he Invested elsewhere he wouldn't be able to do what he's doing on Roshar. If Investing one place means you're Invested everywhere, why would Investing in just one planet be a thing? Why wouldn't Odium just Invest in his own world and affect Roshar?

 

The way you phrase it, you're making things into a bigger deal to prevent it being a bigger deal. If Investing in a planet changes how organic chemistry works, wouldn't it be a much worse thing if that meant it was changed across the cosmere? If you only change how things work on one planet, your Investiture can deal with it; if you change it across the cosmere, you have to deal with it everywhere, too.

[Oudeis he/him]

It would let his magic use Stormlight, and not be at a disadvantage fighting Roshar natives on their own world. Off-world magic is supposed to be hard to do. He also may not have had a choice; we don't know what the Oathpact forced him into.

I think you're interpreting more into it than I meant. Investing only seems to create magic systems. None of the worlds we've seen have altered physics. So I don't see a problem in Ruin's investing in Scadrial changing all metal everywhere. It would only change it in magical ways.

 

I guess? I'm still not understanding you, then. If "changing metal" doesn't "change how stars work" anyway, who cares if the change is local or universal?

 

Are you saying that you think he's actually physically changing the iron of Scadrial, so that atomically it would be different, and react differently, than the iron of other planets? We've got WoB somewhere that as far as physical matter goes, atium is simply another metal. The differences, what makes it special, are all in the spiritual realm. So basically, a Shard shows up on a planet, "Invests" in it, and wraps up the spiritual aspect of the focus of its magic system with a form of energy.

 

I suppose you're right, I can't prove that it only Invests in the focus that appears on the planet, but you've offered no real evidence as to why this would be cosmere-wide, rather than local.

[Mr_Doe]

I haven't read mistborn in a few years, but the mists were essentially Preseravtions "body" right?  Does that mean that the Highstorms are Honor or possibly Cultivations remains?  I kind of like the idea of them being Cultivations remains, remember the part in WoK where they talk about how crops grow better when given water from Highstorms?  Sure they just might be nutrient rich but still food for thought.

[Moogle]

I haven't read mistborn in a few years, but the mists were essentially Preseravtions "body" right?  Does that mean that the Highstorms are Honor or possibly Cultivations remains?  I kind of like the idea of them being Cultivations remains, remember the part in WoK where they talk about how crops grow better when given water from Highstorms?  Sure they just might be nutrient rich but still food for thought.

 

The theory is a common one. We know there's a link between the mists and highstorms, though we don't know much more.

 

Also: Adonalsium left behind some of his/her/its power on Roshar, so it might not even be Honor/Odium/Cultivation. Highstorms could also be a mix of all the Shards or some of them. Difficult to say. We know of two types of Light: Stormlight and Blacklight/Voidlight/Nightlight from the sphere Szeth had. It would not be a stretch for Honor's body to be Stormlight, given the connection between the Stormfather/Jezrien/Honor.

[Pathfinder]

I thought the reason a shard investing in a world was important because it shaped how the magic was accessed? So if you were born on Scadrial, your spirit web was shaped in such a way that you used metals to tap into your spirit web? Go to Roshar and you have to learn how to use stormlight to tap into your spirit web. Go to Sel, and you have to learn how to link to a particular country to access your spirit web and so on. I don't know enough about realmatics to adequately join this debate on the nature of metals, but I will say this. IF the metals were the same across the board, and a mistborn could burn Scadrial iron, roshan iron, sel iron, and so on, I could totally see far in the future, when the planets trade using space ships that Scadrial and Roshan become regular traders. At some point mines for metal could be exhausted but Scadrial could give Roshan scrap (like what happens with the Shin), and Roshan soulcast it into the alloys they use. Scadrial could trade these strange things called chickens and cows that seem to be so rare on Roshan lol.

[Swimmingly he/him]

I think when metal is used Allomantically, it filters back into the planet? Don't quote me on it. The quantities actually used, compared to a building project, would be small enough that it would make no difference anyway.

[Pathfinder]

I thought that was only regarding atium because it was Ruin's body?

[Kurkistan he/him]

Yeah, the "metals return to the planet" WoB is notoriously hard to track down. Once I found it, I ended up putting it in my "Impossible to find" bookmarks folder.

 

Source:

The Nameless One:

I just got back from the Phoenix Comic on, where Brandon is a guest at, and I must say it was an honor to meet him. He read parts of Wax/Wayne 2, Legion 2, and the Taravangian interlude in WoR. There weren't a lot of cosmeric goodies, but I did get a couple interesting tidbits in relation to Mistborn: Ruin would have had to manifest to reabsorb the atium, the Well of Ascension did not come at a price to Preservation's power, and perhaps the most interesting one. Burned metals are turned into a different form, and will eventually return to the planet. The Pits of Hath sin are meant to foreshadow this.

Edited May 15, 2014 by Kurkistan

[Aether he/him]

Yeah, the "metals return to the planet" WoB is notoriously hard to track down. Once I found it, I ended up putting it in my "Impossible to find" bookmarks folder.

What else do you consider "imposible to find?

[Kurkistan he/him]

Not too much, as it's not a very informative name. It's mostly just a function of how long I took to find a WoB the last time I hunted it down before saving the link. TLR being voluntarily old, some info on Wit's sword, seasons on Roshar, stuff like that.

Edited May 15, 2014 by Kurkistan

[Aether he/him]

Btw, could Brandon be subtly hinting at his original Dragonsteel here?

 

Q: Have we met the recipient of "the letter"?

Brandon: Who's we?
Me: The readers.
Brandon: Some people have, you probably have not.
Me: So Beta readers?
Brandon *smile*
<source>

Do we have any information on the contents of his thesis?

Edited June 12, 2014 by Aether