A bit of character analysis from the flipside of the fandom...

[FeatherWriter she/her]

Recently, one of our tumblr members, tinandpewterstrength, finished Way of Kings and issued an open call for anyone with ships (aka, those of us who see good potential for relationships between characters) to try to convince her which characters she should be shipping. Pretty much, she's looking at me - the captain of the Shallarin (Shallan/Renarin) camp, and Kogiopsis - the leader of the Kalarin (Kaladin/Renarin) camp.
 
What started as a simple pair of opposing arguments has blossomed into some incredibly rich character and motivation analysis about all three of these characters involved. While I know that most of the theorizing here tends to be Realmatic, I figured perhaps there are some literary analysts like myself who might enjoy reading some theories that have to do with character development and narrative arcs instead! Or you know, those just curious what the other side of the fandom devotes their time and energy to.
 
Kogiopsis recently created a wonderful guide to this back and forth of analyses, so I'm going to use her post to adapt. Pretty much of the credit for this organization and posting of this goes to her! It's a lot to read, but it's good stuff! The analyses at the beginning are mostly just about shipping, but as the discussion goes on, it becomes more and more pure character analysis (which is super awesome). Cosmere fandom is still the best fandom. 
 

Kogiopsis:
Okay, since I was one of the major participants I feel like I’m pretty well equipped to outline this…
First of all, marking a clear absolute beginning is a bit difficult because Feather (alwaysanothersecret or featherwriter) and I have been sparring jokingly for a while.  The recent skirmishes, however, started when Megan finished The Way of Kings and we could finally attempt to sway her to our various ships without fear of spoilers.  (Megan's liveblogs, in chronological order, are here.)  What followed was this:

• I stayed up far later than I should have to post this outline/overview of Kalarin
• Megan responded
• Feather posted her Guide to Shallarin
• Megan responded
• I posted this somewhat flippant tangential comment; it was only slightly effective
• Feather replied to both Megan’s response and my comment
• Emma entered the fray with her feelings on Feather’s explanation of Shallarin
• I posted this analysis of characters and gender roles, as well as this tangential response to one of Feather’s previous comments

From then on it’s easier to separate by post because I’ve lost track of the timeline-

• Feather’s response to my gender role post; my rebuttal
• Megan’s reblog of Emma’s post; Feather’s

And then last night, Ellie sent Megan this message (in reference to this Javamere coffeshop AU fic).
 
At this point there’s been no official statement from Megan herself definitively declaring victory for one side or the other.  I’m feeling fairly optimistic, though.

My tag for all this stuff is here and Feather’s is here; there’s very little in either that I didn’t cover here (and anything I didn’t is basically tangential to the points of the debate) but if you want to look for more stuff those are good places to start.

 
Megan, the original prompter of all this essay writing, eventually responds to the posting of this guide, here: 
 

TinAndPewterStrength:
(I also read this story by Feather to get a handle on her Shallarin shipping in fic form.) 

I was going to make a separate, definitive post where I responded to the fics, but then this beautiful recap appeared and I think it will be a nice conclusion to this if I just wrap it up here.

Ellie’s fic was a) ADORABLE, and very convincing to the point that she and I chatted about Javamere via Skype for two hours last night, and c) VERY ADORABLE, did I mention? Feather’s fic was also a) VERY ADORABLE, and has a really wonderful characterization of Shallan like WOW, and c) GAH CUTE (ESP CHAPTER 2) JUST GAAAH. So everyone should really read both of those fics and then pester both Ellie and Feather to write more of said fics because there should be more of them. 

So basically, the question that everyone’s been asking: Which ship did I pick?

(Nobody hate me, I love you all.) Honestly, I’m not entirely sure I ship either of them. I think I definitely ship Kalarin more than Shallarin (Honestly, all the Renarin meta convinced me that he and Shallan would be…not problematic, that’s not the word I’m looking for… Just that Kaladin would probably be more helpful to Renarin’s mental state in the long run? I love Feather’s different reading of the character and I love her endgame for Renarin and Shallan, but if we’re looking at where the characters are now in the narrative, then I’m definitely voting Kalarin.) Part of me thinks that my hardcore Shasnah shipping (insert smug smile from Gavin here) might have something to do with it. But while I definitely see where Feather’s coming from, I think there’s some really good potential in Kalarin. But at the same time, I’m not entirely sure that Kalarin would be exceptional, either. We looked at these ships mostly from Renarin’s perspective and who would be good for Renarin, and we talked about Shallan and how Renarin would effect Shallan, but we didn’t really talk all that much about Kaladin. Lisa mentioned him a bit in her original post (talking about how Renarin would definitely remind Kaladin of Tien) but we didn’t really talk a lot about how I don’t think Kaladin is ready for a relationship of any kind. I mean, it took him 1,252 pages to recognize the friendship of Bridge Four and accept that friendship. I think Kaladin definitely needs to acclimatize to the idea that people can be nice to him—he idea that lighteyes can be nice to him, especially—before he’s ready for anything more than a scathing conversation with Renarin. So basically, I can totally see either ship being endgame, and post tons of development from all three characters involved, it could swing either way. Ultimately, it depends on how Renarin develops. If he develops in the direction of Alethi masculinity, his need to be useful and militaristic, then I can definitely see Kalarin being a thing. But if Renarin develops in the other direction, in the direction of accepting his weaknesses and moving on without them to dive into engineering and more scholarly things, then Shallarin would most certainly be an option. So basically, it depends on your reading of Renarin. And I’m…not entirely sure how I read Renarin. But I’m leaning in a more Kalarin direction. For now.

Ultimately, this was fun. So much fun. I mentioned that my inner English major was geeking out about this, because who engages texts like this outside the classroom? Oh right: THE BEST FANDOM EVER. There was SO MUCH EXCELLENT content produced through this discussion, and SO MANY AWESOME points of view brought to light. It really revolutionized how I see Renarin, and allowed me some really great insight into his and Shallan’s characters. Having only read the book once, I feel like I’ve just barely scratched the surface on getting to know these complex, beautiful, and truly real characters; this discussion helped me delve a little deeper and really get to know these people better. So thank you guys for that. It’s really, really awesome to know that this fandom is capable of such COOL things and that I’m part of it. So yeah. 
I love you all. Bye.

 
Now, that's a lot of writing for anyone to sift through, so good luck and congrats to anyone who looks through it! However, I know there were some who were interested in stuff like this and didn't realize that our fandom had a side like this. So, I wanted to at least make people aware that things like this are being written out there! For the more literary types like me, this is the kind of thing I love, and if it were happening elsewhere, I know I'd want to know! I hope you all enjoy this look at what the tumblr fandon's been up to!

 

[PeterAhlstrom he/him]

So how do I find the Tumblr fandom? I went to Tumblr and searched for various cosmere terms, but the search results were only pictures.

[Mailliw73 he/him]

I think Megan makes a good point, a lot does depend on which direction Brandon takes Renarin. If he goes the typical Alethi male direction, I think Shallarin is less of a possibility and would lose a lot of dynamic. I hope that the Shallarin course is taken though, I see a lot of potential with that.

[The Question he/him]

Peter, I think think tumblr he is referencing is

http://adonalsium.tumblr.com/

I might be wrong, but it does have the recent read of Way Of Kings there.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

Most stuff can be found in the tags "cosmere," "brandon sanderson," and "cfsbf" (that last one stands for Cosmere Fandom is Still the Best Fandom).  Series/Book names are used when applicable as well.

 

The main "hub" tumblrblog is adonalsium.tumblr.com and is run by FeatherWriter.

 

Some other members of the fandom are (and I know I'm missing a ton, Feather will be able to fill in the blanks better than me)

thechronicferuchemist

kogiopsis

lunarubato

tinandpewterstrength

abalidoth

 

A lot of the tumblr cosmere fandom is pictures and such, more than the 17th Shard at least but once you know what to look for you can find a lot of textual posts as well.  I would say they focus more on the aesthetics of the cosmere, fanart and literary analysis of characters whereas the 17th Shard is focused more on the mechanics of the cosmere with realmatic theorycrafting.

 

Another major part of the tumblr fandom is the Friday Night Cosmere Chats which are usually exciting though we don't always talk about cosmere stuff.

 

By the way, Kogiopsis made another post addressing the lack of Kaladin analysis in some of her posts.

[The Question he/him]

WeiryWriter,

What time does the friday night Cosmere chats usually begin?

[WeiryWriter he/him]

WeiryWriter,

What time does the friday night Cosmere chats usually begin?

 

It varies.  Usually it starts between 8 and 9 Eastern time and runs into the wee hours of the morning.

[Kurkistan he/him]

Hm. So this is the same Kogiopsis who asked Brandon if Renarin was on the autism spectrum.

 

Well done on her part textual-analysizing enough to think to ask that question, I must say.

[FeatherWriter she/her]

You guys are right, about quite a bit of this! (And it's incredibly exciting that Peter, you're interested in our little corner of the fandom!) The problem with the tumblr fandom is that it isn't really a set "place" in which we can talk about the Cosmere, but rather a collection of individuals who all just happen to talk about the Cosmere among ourselves - among other things and fandoms as well. I've got a bit of a list of some of our more active members that can be found here, though none of us are really dedicated Cosmere blogs, so we post about all kinds of stuff.

 

At the moment I know of only two tumblr blogs which are Cosmere-exclusive, the 17th Shard official tumblr, (moderated by KChan) and the Adonalsium tumblr, (moderated by me). 

 

Usually if there are really interesting things going on in the tumblr fandom, such as this, I'll try to find a way to mirror them over here so people can see! I hope that helps!

 

EDIT: Oh, more people posted while I had this up and I didn't see! @Kurk: Yep, same Kogi. She and I are both pretty protective of Renarin now, and I believe she was led to ask the question because of her roommate, Ellie (swamp-spirit) who displays many similar traits with Renarin. Ellie is now helping Brandon with writing Renarin's character, if I recall correctly, and will probably be mentioned in the Acknowledgements page of Words of Radiance, I believe!

 

As for the Friday Night Cosmere Chats, they can be hard to grab unless you know what you're looking for. FNCC's start in the evenings (American timezones) and someone usually posts a link in the #brandon sanderson tag or the #cfsbf tag, as well as the tags for the various books. (I've been told #mistborn and #elantris are pretty consistently tagged for FNCCs.) If you can't find it around there, send an ask to me or another member of the fandom and we can probably shoot you a link if one's up. I usually try to reblog the link to Adonalsium, but I'm not terribly consistent (sorry!)

 

In regards to keeping up with the fandom, outside of following our most active members directly, I tend to track a lot of tags to see when people create new posts about the Cosmere. I've got an extension for tumblr that shows me what tags I'm tracking and notifies me if there's anything new posted to them. For reference, I'm tracking mostly the names of my blogs and Cosmere terms:

 

 

Edited October 19, 2013 by FeatherWriter

[Djerf he/him]

While most of the theorys here tend to be Realmatic as you say Feather I do think that it's more a product of what most of us understands (I for one never came further in my Swedish studies then how to identify a verb) and not a lack for interest and when the theoryzing had started I suspect that it just built its own momentum.

I looked around in those links you provided and found out that I'm totally incapable of navigating tumblr, a fact that saddens me because what i did find there was awesome, it's just to bad that the ideas expressed out there isn't in the structured and formal way of this forum.

 

One of the things that I did find was a counter argument against Shalarin that rang false to me and I want to take some time to show why.

The argument was that Vorin society provides a way for men to pursue the female arts and therefor Renarin don't want to study fabrial science that bad.

 

My first points  concerns the Ardentia: Ardents are considered more or less sexless  " A parshman wasn't much of a chaperone, but Kabsal was an ardent, which meant technically she didn't need one" WoK pg 524 " We shouldn't be talking like this Kabsal. You're an ardent.""A man can leave the ardentia, Shallan" Wok pg 618 during a flirty conversation between Shallan and Kabsal.

Further ardents are property "....We're not a threat to anyone these days. We can't own property... Damnation, we're property ourselves. We dance to the whims of the citylords and warlords, afraid to tell them the thruth of their sins for fear of retribution. We're whitespines without tusks or claws, expected to sit at our master's feet and offer praise..." they are basically slaves.

Secondly I want to offer insight into Renarins family: First we have Gavilar, the king,  who personified the noble Calling of leading and lived a success tale. Then we have Dalinar, the Blackthorn, who are as accomplished as the king was if not more so and in the even more masculine arts of warfare and combat. Then we have Navani, the artifabrian, who lives the female virtues, at least publicly. Lastly we have Adolin , the brother, who is very much his fathers son, he lives the male ideals and excels.

Thirdly we have Renarin himself who is a intelligent young man, no older then 20, and wants the same thing every young man wants, fame, popularity, acceptance and girls (or boys).

 

Consider this and tell me, how could he join the ardentia? one needs to understand that the only reason that Dalinar consider the ardentia a viable option is a narrowmindness common with parents who only wants the best for their kids and so he want Renarin to do want he likes and don't consider the drawbacks partly because he don't understands that the problems exists ( he's too good to notice) and partly because of his selective blindness concerning Renarin.

 

Renarin joining the ardentia to study fabrial science is like if Bill Gates son took up cleaning toilets becasue he likes it and he frankly isn't smart enough to do anything else, it would be outrageous, it would a scandal, not because it's bad to be a cleaner but because of who his father is, it would be better for him to do nothing.

 

Someone might already have countered the argument but as I said. I couldn't navigate in there.  

[FeatherWriter she/her]

(Something that might be hindering your movement on tumblr, those little "Read More" buttons. In the case of Tumblr, reblogging a post - which is the main way that someone replies to add comments - puts the original post above what the reblogger has written. In the case of very long posts, the original creator might put a Read More break, so that they don't have posts that are super crazy long. They're not like spoiler tags usually, where you have to open them to see what everyone says, they're usually links to the previous parts of the conversation. 
 
In the case of these, Kogi linked to each of the posts sequentially, so you shouldn't need to go back to previous ones to see what was said before. You're already getting them in order, and the entirety of the response is there and open for you to see.)
 
Anyway, Re: your actual comments.Yes, I think it's pretty clear on both sides that the ardentia is simply not a viable option for dear, sweet Renarin. As you've said, his views on masculinity simply aren't compatible with the kind of loss of agency and masculinity that ardents undergo. It's been mentioned in canon that Renarin has refused entering the ardentia, possibly on multiple occasions:
 

If only the lad [Renarin] could be persuaded to become an ardent. He could be an engineer then, if he wanted. And yet he refused. His reasons always seemed like poor excuses to Dalinar.
(WoK, Ch. 60)

 

The way the two shipping camps then deal with this issue of masculinity is what goes into our division. I, as a Shallarin shipper, said it this way: "My ideal character arc for both Shallan and Renarin involves each using the skills of the other gender to fulfill the ideals of their own." So, for Renarin, I want to see him learning to use the feminine arts in masculine ways (and conversely, Shallan learning to use the masculine arts in feminine ways). I think this could be a really cool character arc for both of them, and seeing them go through it together and grow as a couple in these very interesting ways is something I think would be awesome!

 

The Kalarin camp believes (keep in mind that I'm quoting my opposition, so I might get this wrong) that Renarin's deep insecurity over his masculinity will cause him to shun and abhor any idea which would make him seem more feminine, such as joining the ardentia - or as I would have him do, learn the feminine arts in secret and use them in new ways. They see a parallel for growth between Renarin's insecurity - which could draw him towards someone who exhibits the masculine ideal, like Kaladin - and Kaladin's desire for trustworthy  lighteyes - which could draw him to a kindhearted person, like Renarin. 

 

There's lots more reasons behind the ships, but in regards to Renarin's masculinity, I believe that's where the two camps fall! (I'm glad to hear you're leaning towards Shallarin! I'm always a fan of convincing people towards my ship!)

[Zizoz he/him]

People understand Realmatic theory posts?

[Mailliw73 he/him]

/>

/>(I'm glad to hear you're leaning towards Shallarin! I'm always a fan of convincing people towards my ship!)

Yep, and she gives you a lot of upvotes when you talk about it. and maybe a steelhunt code, if you really convert to the Shallarin side.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Mailliw73

[Djerf he/him]

Yes I'm in the Shallarin camp but I don't feel that lack of masculinity are in anyway related to Renarins character but rather he suffers from a   "lack of sense of worth in himself" which is somewhat justified seeing as he are incapable of contributing in anyway that he are allowed to.

I have a dear friend who suffers from emotionally triggered epilepsy and a brother who's a high functional autist , a combination of afflictions that i fell fit well on Renarin, and neither of those suffers from any lack of masculinity (imaged or real) but both suffers from feeling that they aren't good enough which is stupid since they both can chose a path where they won't be hindered and, in the case of my brother, really excel! Those that I've meet that lacked in masculinity never were the quite, thinking kids, no they were the loud trouble makers who tried to re compensate with a stereotypical boyish behavior, a behavior that often carried over into adulthood.

 

This is how I would imagine it.

 

Shallan will gravitate towards Renarin in the beginning because he reminds her of her brothers partly from the lack of self worth and partly from his internal pain and Renarin are pleasantly surprised that this new exciting girl prefers him over his perfect brother.

As time progress Shallan will start to appreciate him for his keen mind and gentle soul, while Renarin will act as a guide for the new Alethi capital and it's society ( from which he will derive some self value, however small) and he will start to appreciate her for her quick wit and her acceptance of his problems. The next great step for the two will require a catalyst and so, enter Szeth, or another catastrophe. Shallan will be put in a situation where she will choose to reveal her shameful secret in order to protect herself and those around her. Shallans reveal will be the cataclysm that allow Renarin to eventually choose to forgo Vorin gender roles and forge his own path.

 

This is the first ship I've ever taken any part of and see what you have done to me! Here I sit making things up out of thin air without even faux science to back my claims.

[Kurkistan he/him]

People understand Realmatic theory posts?

 

Not really. It's all a big scam actually.

[Natans he/him]

To early to shipping.  But I like the Shallarin idea.

 

Sanderson likes to make the "underdog" shine  and Renarin for sure will have his moment of glory, how knows maybe is Shallan that make him "take a level in badass" nothing like have a love crush to make a man out of a boy =)

[FeatherWriter she/her]

Hey, the fun in these ships right now is all in the potential! Neither of the camps has had any canon interaction thus far, so it's all just speculation and theories (which, as we all know, everyone loves a good theory.) Hopefully that will change with WoR, but until then, just got to be patient.

 

For those interested in seeing the beginnings of how I imagine the Shallarin ship possibly going, I've got a fic going on for it.

/shamelessly self-promotes own writing.

 

(Also, yes. I pretty much upvote all the Shallarin posts, whoops.)

[Natans he/him]

Hey, the fun in these ships right now is all in the potential! Neither of the camps has had any canon interaction thus far, so it's all just speculation and theories (which, as we all know, everyone loves a good theory.) Hopefully that will change with WoR, but until then, just got to be patient.

 

For those interested in seeing the beginnings of how I imagine the Shallarin ship possibly going, I've got a fic going on for it.

/shamelessly self-promotes own writing.

 

(Also, yes. I pretty much upvote all the Shallarin posts, whoops.)

 

Upvote for the passion in of yours arguments =)

 

But nobody have any love fo "Shallandin" shipping ?

Edited October 21, 2013 by Natans

[Argent he/him]

Syladin, /discuss.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Argent

[Natans he/him]

Syladin, /discuss.

 

Lol.

 

They have a very "Ethereal" relationship I think that woudn't last =)

 

Maybe a Bromance =)

Edited October 21, 2013 by Natans

[TheChronicFeruchemist she/her]

About Friday Night Cosmere Chats, when I start the chat its usual about 7 or 8 PM I tag it under Cosmere, Brandon Sanderson, Mistborn, Way of Kings, Elantris, and Warbreaker.

 

Although we might be able to make a way to post the link here on 17s if you guys want that.

[Mailliw73 he/him]

A bromance between a male and a female XD I don't think Syladin is a real option. It seems too weird in my opinion.

[Natans he/him]

A bromance between a male and a female XD I don't think Syladin is a real option. It seems too weird in my opinion.

 

 A bromace between a spirit and a human

 

Spiritmance, perhaps ?

[FeatherWriter she/her]

I can't do anything but pale for Kasyl/Syladin. Kaladin<>Syl is the way to go. Definitely not a romantic sort of relationship for me.

 

(Also, it appears that the tumblr fandom was mostly unaware that I had posted this... until Peter tweeted about Megan's liveblogs. Cue entire fandom freaking out...)

[WeiryWriter he/him]

I do like Syladin/Kalphrena, I've kind of shipped it since I decided Shalladin wouldn't work as well as Shallarin.  It definitely wouldn't be a sexual relationship, but there's more to love than that, see Sazed/Tindwyl.