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WoR Reread Questions


Shardbearer

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I'm on to my first reread of WoR and will post questions and theories in this thread.

 

Nahel Spren: Are some Nahel spren of Honor, some of Cultivation, and some a mix of both? Is this why there is tension between Honorspren and Cryptics? 

 

Futuresight: Renarin sees the future. Honor wasn't very good at this. This is something that Cultivation could do better, but there is also a lot of implication that seeing the future is of Odium. So, is Renarin's ability to see the future because his spren is of cultivation, or is something else more nefarious going on here?

 

Pattern: Why does Pattern show up as a symbolhead in WoK, but suddenly starts manifesting as a pattern in WoR? Is it because Shallan's bond strengthened to the point that Pattern was drawn more into the Physical Realm? Also, in the flashbacks Pattern was drawn into the Physical Realm enough to become a Shardblade, so did Shallan's refusal to acknowledge Pattern or her memories cause him to lose his connection to the Physical Realm and return to Shadesmar before the start of WoK? And why did Shallan's drawings in WoK show multiple Cryptics?

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I'm on to my first reread of WoR and will post questions and theories in this thread.

 

Nahel Spren: Are some Nahel spren of Honor, some of Cultivation, and some a mix of both? Is this why there is tension between Honorspren and Cryptics? 

 

Futuresight: Renarin sees the future. Honor wasn't very good at this. This is something that Cultivation could do better, but there is also a lot of implication that seeing the future is of Odium. So, is Renarin's ability to see the future because his spren is of cultivation, or is something else more nefarious going on here?

 

Pattern: Why does Pattern show up as a symbolhead in WoK, but suddenly starts manifesting as a pattern in WoR? Is it because Shallan's bond strengthened to the point that Pattern was drawn more into the Physical Realm? Also, in the flashbacks Pattern was drawn into the Physical Realm enough to become a Shardblade, so did Shallan's refusal to acknowledge Pattern or her memories cause him to lose his connection to the Physical Realm and return to Shadesmar before the start of WoK? And why did Shallan's drawings in WoK show multiple Cryptics?

Not sure if you're wanting answers, but you get 'em anyway! :)

 

Nahel Spren: We know that at least most are a mix of both.  It's commonly believed that that a couple are pure one or the other.  I couldn't quickly find the Surgebinding chart that's labeled with the Orders, but I know it's out there.  Short of that, if you look at the one in the WoK cover, in the middle on top is the Bondsmiths, and below that is Truthwatchers.  So, the upper-half is believed to be more of Honor, and the lower-half to be more of Cultivation, with those in the middle possibly 'pure' of Honor/Cultivation.  Honestly, I want to know what/who Nahel is/was/means.  (ie, why is it called the Nahel Bond, rather than the Spren Bond or the Radiant Bond etc.)

 

Futuresight: Honor says that he wasn't able to see into the future well, and Cultivation could do it better.  Humans said that seeing into the future is of the voidbringers.  Keep in mind that this also came about because of an era of those in power using that power to stay in power by charting the course of life for those beneath them.  That's part of why the Ardentia is such a big deal in the 'present'--not for what they are, but for what changed for them.  Everyone chooses their own path to the Tranquiline Halls, and the priests are there to help them.

 

If we assume the theory that Truthwatchers are almost entirely of Cultivation, that would certainly suggest why Renarin is able to see into the future.  Since we have almost no actual information about Odium or the voidbringers, it's possible that what humans said about seeing into the future was just a way to break with the past and create a new society with a new power structure (that was likely just as corrupt as the old, because humans.)  SO, I don't think anything nefarious is going on here with Renarin.  Mr T might be a better example to look at for twisted future-vision, though, but there's already several good threads looking at that specifically :)

 

Pattern: I forget who, but someone on the forums some time ago said they think it's because Shallan drew him as a pattern when she 'summoned' him.  And, like the spren philosophers in WoK that were experimenting with the flame-spren, once 'measured' this way, Pattern became 'locked-in.' 

 

Question

Where was Pattern before Shallan drew him?
Brandon SandersonHe was around. The bonding process had started when Shallan was young but then she pushed him away and he withdrew mostly to the Cognitive Realm until the bonding was started again and she pulled him fully into the Physical when she drew him.

(quote is from post 30 here.  I was having difficulties with the quote bubble not expanding, and gave up.)

 

And I'm pretty sure Shallan's drawings showed multiple Cryptics because there were multiple Cryptics around.  I've always interpreted it as a shotgun wedding type of scenario, honestly.

 

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Syl has a negative reaction to Renarin's first vision.  Whan Kaladin asks her if she's seen anything like the writing on the wall, she says that it's not of Honor, but it's of something else, something bad and dangerous. 

 

It's possible that she's referring to Cultivation here, but it's more likely Odium.

 

 

And Pattern shows up in his pattern form before being drawn. I understand that drawing him brought him fully into the PR, but he must have had a stronger presence there even before that for him to be visible out of the corner of her eye. 

Edited by Shardbearer
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Syl has a negative reaction to Renarin's first vision.  Whan Kaladin asks her if she's seen anything like the writing on the wall, she says that it's not of Honor, but it's of something else, something bad and dangerous. 

 

It's possible that she's referring to Cultivation here, but it's more likely Odium.

I'm not so sure, cultivation isn't anywher near a "good" shard. Brandon once said that the closest shards can intent to hers was ruin. Wyndle has said that he believes that Cultivation has given up on humanity. I'm really interested on what we get to see of Nightwatcher in this next book.

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Why can't Shallan convince the stick to become fire? Does she not have stormlight from a Ruby sphere to match the fire essence? Or is it something else?

 

SA3 spoilers:

Going by Jasnah's PoV, the answer seems to involve how assertive you are. Shallan was not exactly very forceful in demanding it to be fire.

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Where does spoiler come from? I've only seen the excerpt from chapter 1 on Tor.com, which doesn't include anything like that.

 

And another question. Or more of a theory. I think Rock can see spren like Syl because of  the shardpool. Maybe the Horneaters drink water from the shardpool, giving them some investiture.

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Where does spoiler come from? I've only seen the excerpt from chapter 1 on Tor.com, which doesn't include anything like that.

 

And another question. Or more of a theory. I think Rock can see spren like Syl because of  the shardpool. Maybe the Horneaters drink water from the shardpool, giving them some investiture.

 

Here's a link: http://www.tor.com/2014/08/06/stormlight-archive-scene-after-words-of-radiance/

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Syl has a negative reaction to Renarin's first vision.  Whan Kaladin asks her if she's seen anything like the writing on the wall, she says that it's not of Honor, but it's of something else, something bad and dangerous. 

 

It's possible that she's referring to Cultivation here, but it's more likely Odium.

I don't think she has negative reaction to what it is (warning) but what it warns about.

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Here's the quote:

 

 

"I remember . . . something," she whispered. "Something bad. Seeing what is to come- it isn't of Honor, Kaladin. It's something else. Something dangerous."

 

So, despite whatever animosity there may be between spren of Honor and spren of Cultivation, I don't think she would react this way to something of Cultivation. This reaction seems to point to Odium.

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Well...to be fair, dangerous could apply anything a Shard is capable of and in essence, she is right to an extent. Seeing the future isn't something Honour/Tanavast was really good at (as in Honour is how you are acting presently and the like), especially compared to Cultivation (using the best method for the situation to achieve the best results) Seeing as Syl (and honourspren in general) are 99.9% likely to be one of the pure Honour-invested spren species, the reason why she refers to Foresight as dangerous is probably because the actions one might take as a result of what has been seen (preemptive strikes, acting/judging before anything has even been done etc) might not fit with the Windrunner oaths and ethics.

 

As for Voidbringing futuresight; the Unmade, Moelach, is hinted at being behind the Death-Rattles as well as being the most skilled at Precognition among the Unmade, so presuming that there is a void/Odiumspren the Parshendi can bond that may come from Moelach, Vorin faith might have appropriated this and made it part of their Dogma. Would explain why they didn't vouch for the Truthwatchers given the whole Radiant's 'betrayal' etc. 

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The parshendi Nightforms foresaw a future when Odium is possibly defeated by a champion and aren't portrayed as as evil as the others, while Truthwatchers are misterious and reclusive and Syl dislikes foretelling.

For me it indicates that for some reason those who see the future are outside a shard's control. Maybe the truthwatchers are an order with no oaths? Shallan also seems to have some form of clarividence by drawing the sailors and Shallash.

Edited by CognitivePulsePattern
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So, despite whatever animosity there may be between spren of Honor and spren of Cultivation, I don't think she would react this way to something of Cultivation. This reaction seems to point to Odium.

 

But the writing on the wall is foretelling the Everstorm, which is of Odium. I'm pretty sure she is responding to that, not specifically the writing on the wall and which Shard may or may not have powered that foresight. I'm 90% sure that Truthwatchers are of Cultivation with their ability to see the future and Regrowth as a surge, which is shared by Edgedancers, of which Lift is now one and her Spren specifically talks of Cultivation as his mother shard. 

 

The Everstorm that Renarin's future sight warned him of however is definitely of Odium, and Syl is remembering that as something that is to come and not of Honor and dangerous, which it most certainly is... 

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The language seems pretty clear to me. It's "seeing what is to come" that she is reacting to here.

 

Which is why this kinda confuses me. I doubt that Renarin's visions are Odious. Which means that the visions are related to Cultivation. As an honorspren, I wouldn't expect Syl to call something of Cultivation "bad". Dangerous, yes, but not bad.

 

So for now I'll assume that she's calling it bad because seeing the future is tied to Odium more often than than Cultivation.

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The language seems pretty clear to me. It's "seeing what is to come" that she is reacting to here.

 

Which is why this kinda confuses me. I doubt that Renarin's visions are Odious. Which means that the visions are related to Cultivation. As an honorspren, I wouldn't expect Syl to call something of Cultivation "bad". Dangerous, yes, but not bad.

 

So for now I'll assume that she's calling it bad because seeing the future is tied to Odium more often than than Cultivation.

But we know that even Honor can see the future, albeit badly. I think there is some kind of taboo going around with foretelling because Odium is best at it, even among spren. Hell, we now know that spren hunt other spren, so why not bigotry and misconceptions. They are products of human minds after all.

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I'm on to my first reread of WoR and will post questions and theories in this thread.

 

Nahel Spren: Are some Nahel spren of Honor, some of Cultivation, and some a mix of both? Is this why there is tension between Honorspren and Cryptics? 

 

I believe the tension between Honourspren and Cryptics is a fairly basic thing. Look at what Rosharan Humans would call Cryptics - Liespren, and Syl has major problems when Kaladin lies.

 

 

 

Futuresight: Renarin sees the future. Honor wasn't very good at this. This is something that Cultivation could do better, but there is also a lot of implication that seeing the future is of Odium. So, is Renarin's ability to see the future because his spren is of cultivation, or is something else more nefarious going on here?

 

 

Seeing the future is considered bad, not because premonition is of Odium, but because of the theocracy, and the Vorin church's great failing. They were using false prophecies to control people, so anything that smells of prophecy or foretelling will be looked at with very skeptical eyes because of this.

 

 

 

Pattern: Why does Pattern show up as a symbolhead in WoK, but suddenly starts manifesting as a pattern in WoR? Is it because Shallan's bond strengthened to the point that Pattern was drawn more into the Physical Realm? Also, in the flashbacks Pattern was drawn into the Physical Realm enough to become a Shardblade, so did Shallan's refusal to acknowledge Pattern or her memories cause him to lose his connection to the Physical Realm and return to Shadesmar before the start of WoK? And why did Shallan's drawings in WoK show multiple Cryptics?

 

 

 

Pattern said something to Shallan, when she was reluctant to remember what happened to her when she was younger. He told her that she must become both the truth and the lie if she wanted to progress as a Lightweaver. She could not do that until she had faced her past, which instead, she had buried deep. I'm fairly sure that by doing this, she crippled her own growth as a Radiant until she later met Jasnah.

 

I think this is why it seems that Shallan is just starting down the Radiant path, and why Pattern had to resurface from Shadesmar. As for the other Cryptics, they just wanted to get a look at the girl Pattern had chosen for himself.

 

I did like an earlier comment about capturing Pattern in his inky form being the same as measuring the flamespren. I assumed it was some kind of bond thing, and hadn't made the connection between Pattern and those flamespren.

 

Edit: Formatting.

Edited by Bort
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Nahel Spren: We know that at least most are a mix of both.  It's commonly believed that that a couple are pure one or the other.  I couldn't quickly find the Surgebinding chart that's labeled with the Orders, but I know it's out there.  Short of that, if you look at the one in the WoK cover, in the middle on top is the Bondsmiths, and below that is Truthwatchers.  So, the upper-half is believed to be more of Honor, and the lower-half to be more of Cultivation, with those in the middle possibly 'pure' of Honor/Cultivation.  Honestly, I want to know what/who Nahel is/was/means.  (ie, why is it called the Nahel Bond, rather than the Spren Bond or the Radiant Bond etc.)

 

 

Though I'm not sure where I got it, I've always had the headcannon that the Nahel bond was named after Nohadon.

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I believe the tension between Honourspren and Cryptics is a fairly basic thing. Look at what Rosharan Humans would call Cryptics - Liespren, and Syl has major problems when Kaladin lies.

 

 

Yeah, that makes perfect sense now.

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Pattern: Why does Pattern show up as a symbolhead in WoK, but suddenly starts manifesting as a pattern in WoR? Is it because Shallan's bond strengthened to the point that Pattern was drawn more into the Physical Realm? Also, in the flashbacks Pattern was drawn into the Physical Realm enough to become a Shardblade, so did Shallan's refusal to acknowledge Pattern or her memories cause him to lose his connection to the Physical Realm and return to Shadesmar before the start of WoK? And why did Shallan's drawings in WoK show multiple Cryptics?

 

SA3 spoilers:

My answer to this is part conjecture and part observation. We see right after the ship wreck that Pattern still appears as a symbol head when in the cognitive realm, I think when Shallan was drawing them originally it was the result of partially looking into Shadesmar much the same way as Kaladin did the first time he performed a basic lashing and run up the side of a chasm. 

It's also possible that Patterns nature changes significantly between the physical and cognitive realms. The only example we have of this occurring though is with painspren in the snippet we see of Jasnah stepping fully into Shadesmar when Ivory refers to painspren as Grinders and states “On your side, harmless. Here, harmmore. Very harmmore."

Edited by Moogle
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SA3 spoilers:

It's also possible that Patterns nature changes significantly between the physical and cognitive realms. The only example we have of this occurring though is with painspren in the snippet we see of Jasnah stepping fully into Shadesmar when Ivory refers to painspren as Grinders and states “On your side, harmless. Here, harmmore. Very harmmore."

 

SA3 spoilers:

Maybe, but I think the difference in Spren in the CR has more to do with the fact that they are fully present there, and only partially present in the Physical, where they barely manifest without a bond.

Edited by Moogle
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Some observations:

 

Shallan and Pattern on splitting cognitive entities: She asked him if he was helping her feet to heal, and he replied that he doesn't know why people break, and knows even less of why they unbreak. She asked if "his type" get wounded. He said that they break differently than people, and don't unbreak without aid.

 

I assume that this applies all the way down from Adonalsium, to shards, splinters, on down the line. They split off into smaller, or rather more focused intents. And then they can't be brought back together without help.

 

Odium's champion: I believe that Szeth will be Odium's champion. His first appearance, when he tries to assassinate Dalinar, is in a chapter titled "THE ONE WHO HATES". We all know who that really refers to...

 

Shallan's innocence: Right before their final confrontation, Shallan sees Tyn rubbing something moss that emits smoke between her fingers, her eyes glazing over. Did she seriously not know about the drug called firemoss? Then again, I don't think I noticed this the first time I read the book.

 

Reya: There's a star called Reya's Tear. As in teardrop, from crying. It's near Taln's Scar. I wander if Reya is the name of Cultivation's holder.

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Reya: There's a star called Reya's Tear. As in teardrop, from crying. It's near Taln's Scar. I wander if Reya is the name of Cultivation's holder.

 This has been asked (in one form or another) and consequently RAFO'd QQ

 

EDIT: apologies, this is incorrect. Thanks WW!

Edited by ParadoxSpren
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