Amaram vs. Sadeas

[+Slowswift]

Quoth Hoid to Amaram, "You are what lesser cremlings like Sadeas can only aspire to be."

 

This thread is basically me asking who you disliked the most.

 

Personally I disagree with dear Wit. Amaram is a jerk and a chull, but Sadeas gives me the creeps.

 

Why do I dislike them so unevenly?

 

They both believe that what they have done/are doing/will do is the right thing. They both put on a face of honor.

 

But Amaram seems less evil, I guess, because he's more like Dalinar? I guess he does a better job at hiding behind pretenses? Even if he is going along with the stupidest plan in the history of stupidest plans.

 

Basically, I think one reason he seems less evil to me is that we get it from the beginning that he's a traitorous, double-crossing jerk with Kaladin's POV. 

 

Sadeas, on the other hand, seems like a nice guy. We get Adolin calling him an eel, yes, but he seems decent enough. Heaven knows I was cheering for him when he seemed like he was starting to listen to Dalinar.

 

And then the betrayal happened. And now I cringe whenever he appears on-screen, especially when we're in his POV.

 

So, TL;DR, basically Amaram is a jerk but not as much of a jerk as Sadeas.

 

I apologize if that was incoherent. I need sleep and so all that probably sounded better in my head.

Edited June 20, 2015 by Slowswift

[Adamir]

To me, Sadeas is possibly the most well-written character, simply because we don't find out everything about him, but we are given the evidence to come to our own conclusions. Sadly (please don't hate me), the main conclusion around 17th Shard is that he is a cremling. I would say its the Scadrian Nobleman problem - darkeyes/skaa are not considered as people, because the society sees them as subhuman. Thus sacrificing them to save nobles/lighteyes seems like a good policy. Killing other nobles/lighteyes (in this case through the betrayal) who threaten to cause chaos through the nation is, to them, morally justified. I could understand Sadeas, because he actually had coherent motivations. Not that I wanted him to succeed, but I didn't want him to fail entirely.

 

Hmm, it seems that there are still a few people out there who don't hate my guts. Time to fix that... I now ship Shalleas. Or Stickeas. Or (name)eas. At the moment, the most crushing insult to a character on the forums is to ship them with Sadeas. And therefore I have brought on the wrath of all Shallarin, Shalladin and Shallalin supporters, alongside all other Shallan shippers. That, and the Church of the Stick will probably call a crusade to burn me at the stake.

 

Amaram, on the other hand, just seems like a zealot who goes too far. Not that interesting; and you can't hate what bores you.

Edited June 20, 2015 by Adamir

[Topomouse]

In my dialect this would be called choosing tra u marcu e a muffa(i.e. between moldy and rotten), but I think that among them Amaram is the better person. While his means are undoubtedly bad, his end is ultimately good, and apparently he sincerely regrets what he had to do.

Sadeas on the other hand doesn't even have that, when we get his POV towards the end or WoR he seems to just do war and treachery out of habit in a desperate quest to recapture the thrill he felt when he was young, he doesn't even have a true goal.

And anyway, I also think that Szeth should appear in a poll like this. Or maybe the stone shamans. I still can't wrap my head around how someone could think that doing evil is a way to expiate a crime...

[DreamEternal]

Szeth didn't do evil to atone. He did it for the right to burn in damnation eternaly instead of having his soul destroyed. He did it because the stone shamans told him to, and he was brainwashed since birth to obey them, no matter what. He did it because to admit that he didn't have to would be the same as admiting that all he was told to believe, all that he ever knew, was a lie.

[Iarwainiel I]

@ Adamir said:

" ... I now ship ... Stickeas. ... "

 

Ummm - I almost said this out loud, then stopped myself, LOL.

The rowdy folks I worked with in my younger days would sure have had some fun with that one. :-)

(Hope I don't offend the moderators with this reply; couldn't resist a little innocent humor!)

Edited June 21, 2015 by old aggie

[maxal]

After reading two books, I would have to say Sadeas was the greater evil. He was willing to slaughter 6000 men while pretending it was for the good of Alethkar.

 

Amaram may have killed Kaladin's squad, but it was to obtain valuable shards his man had foolishly discarded. Whereas I do not agree with Amaram's actions, I can see why he would think himself entitled to do so. 

 

Is Amaram better than Sadeas? Based on the clues at end, I would have to say yes. Or perhaps, I would need to say he is better at hiding his treachery than Sadeas: he may yet prove to be a greater enemy, one our heroes won't be able to remove by simply stabbing him into the eye, one that is clever enough not to go spike over and over again the uncaged whitespine...

 

This is yet to be seen...

[natc]

Sadeas keeps insisting that Dalinar doesn't know what kind of game he is playing here in the Plains, but I think he's missing the point. Dalinar knows what game everybody else is playing and is trying to get them to stop playing it and get work done for once. And Sadeas is getting in the way of that for shits and giggles. Alethkar might crumble under Dalinar's attempts, but really it was already dead anyway.

Amaram, at least he has a noble goal, though ending the world is probably not the best way to achieve it. But at least you can still barely argue for his side, the same can't be said for Sadeas. And in the wise words of abridged anime videos, at least he pretends to be nice to people.

[Mr Horrible]

I don't know, I honestly give Sadeas points for significantly more self awareness than Amaram has. Sadeas knew he did it for himself and while that might better the country as a whole, it's ultimately because he doesn't want to back down against Dalinar that he is so antagonistic. Amaram on the other hand seems to have noble goals in the long run, however it's either fundamentally stupid or selfish for a Son of Honor to go against the only KR ideal that is common to all orders (note I assume the SoH would be aware of that ideal, as other groups were). I think Amaram is a lot more of a scumbag overall, hell immediately after his friendship with Dalinar falls through his first thought is regret for letting Kaladin live rather than how he treated Kal's squad.

 

As far as a fight goes I'd wager Amaram would win it, even though we haven't ever(?) seen him fight. Sadeas was portrayed to be much more of a threat politically than he was physically.

[kaellok]

After reading two books, I would have to say Sadeas was the greater evil. He was willing to slaughter 6000 men while pretending it was for the good of Alethkar.

 

Amaram may have killed Kaladin's squad, but it was to obtain valuable shards his man had foolishly discarded. Whereas I do not agree with Amaram's actions, I can see why he would think himself entitled to do so. 

Emphasis mine.  Amaram was willing to bring about a Desolation, which in times past have wiped out 90%+ of the entire population of the planet, just so that his personal church would have more power in the world again.  Sadeas was willing to kill 6000 soldiers to create a unified structure of government mostly under his control.  Amaram's goals aren't noble in the least, certainly not any more than Sadeas.  The only real difference in what they did was on a matter of scale.  

 

 

In my dialect this would be called choosing tra u marcu e a muffa(i.e. between moldy and rotten), but I think that among them Amaram is the better person. While his means are undoubtedly bad, his end is ultimately good, and apparently he sincerely regrets what he had to do.

Sadeas on the other hand doesn't even have that, when we get his POV towards the end or WoR he seems to just do war and treachery out of habit in a desperate quest to recapture the thrill he felt when he was young, he doesn't even have a true goal.

 

Sadeas was trying to re-capture the Thrill he felt in his youth, not thrill.  The Thrill being caused by one of the Unmade (probably.)  Think of it as a drug, and Sadeas a junkie starving for a fix.  Hell, even Dalinar yearns for it when he rides out.

 

Towards Amaram in general:  He acts in ways that are most favorable to him.  The honorable of the Alethi respect and praise him.  So do the less-than-honorable.  The truest test of character, for anyone, ever, is what you do when you think no one is looking.  And Amaram is nothing but scum.

 

Towards Sadeas in general:  He acts as he wishes, and makes no pretense in being other than he is.  The petty politicking and backstabbing is part of who he is as a person, part of who he has likely always been.  That Dalinar forgot this doesn't make Sadeas a worse person--it makes Dalinar a more foolish/naive one.  

 

I honestly don't understand how anyone can believe that Amaram is a better person, and a lesser evil, than Sadeas.

Edited June 21, 2015 by kaellok

[maxal]

Emphasis mine.  Amaram was willing to bring about a Desolation, which in times past have wiped out 90%+ of the entire population of the planet, just so that his personal church would have more power in the world again.  Sadeas was willing to kill 6000 soldiers to create a unified structure of government mostly under his control.  Amaram's goals aren't noble in the least, certainly not any more than Sadeas.  The only real difference in what they did was on a matter of scale.  

 

We do not know enough about the Sons of Honor to truly understand their ways. It could be they did not think the Desolation would really come as it once did. Remember they hardly know anything about the previous Desolation so I'd wager their information are not quite accurate. Again, this is pure speculation, but we simply do not know. In the advent we are missing some crucial information on both Amaram and the Sons of Honor (Galivar was a Son of Honor, did he truly wanted to slaughter his kingdom?), I cannot ranged Amaram as more evil than Sadeas.

 

We do not know yet. As I said, it could very well be he is, I certainly would not be surprised, but so far, in books, Sadeas has committed the worst atrocities for not other reasons than his own personal benefit. He was even foolish enough to delude himself into thinking it was a good thing for the kingdom. He seemed truly convinced he could simply kill Elhokar and the Highprinces would range behind him: he was a fool. Nobody would have ever followed him. 

 

 

Sadeas keeps insisting that Dalinar doesn't know what kind of game he is playing here in the Plains, but I think he's missing the point. Dalinar knows what game everybody else is playing and is trying to get them to stop playing it and get work done for once. And Sadeas is getting in the way of that for shits and giggles. Alethkar might crumble under Dalinar's attempts, but really it was already dead anyway.

Amaram, at least he has a noble goal, though ending the world is probably not the best way to achieve it. But at least you can still barely argue for his side, the same can't be said for Sadeas. And in the wise words of abridged anime videos, at least he pretends to be nice to people.

 

Dalinar fails because he wants it all NOW. He wants the Highprinces to change their ways, but what he offers them is not inviting, worst it clashes against their mentalities. He naively believe if he acts honorably, others would simply take his example, without him taking time to explain why they should, heck even Adolin does not understand why Dalinar insist so much on his Code. He has been following it for 6 years and Dalinar never once, before WoK, stopped himself to explain it, in understandable worlds, not parabola, to his son why. If he own son has trouble making sense out of it, in which world would the Highprinces adopt his ways?

 

Dalinar has not tackled at the problem in the right way. He does not want to compromised, but he will have to, if he wants a unified kingdom.

 

Sadeas took advantage of it. He saw his old friend weakening, so he goes out of his way to remove him and his only worthy son (in Sadeas's eyes). To do so, he was willing to kill anyone standing in his ways.

 

I have yet to see the confirmation Amaram would do the same or that he truly is aware of what a Desolation is.

[Kelek's Breath]

We do not know enough about the Sons of Honor to truly understand their ways. It could be they did not think the Desolation would really come as it once did.

 

In Ch. 88 of WoR, Amaram is writing a letter to Restares, where he mentions some of the Sons of Honor's motives. He says:

 I do not exult in this success...Lives will be lost...It has ever been our burden as the Sons of Honor. To return the Heralds, to return the dominance of the Church, we had to put the world in crisis. That crisis we now have, a terrible one...But many will die, So very many.

 

We at least know that they wanted to intentionally start a crisis/the Desolations, and knew that "very many' would die. Does very many equal 40%, 50% etc? We do not know. But pretending to be a Son of Honor and intentionally starting a Desolation are not compatible. At least Sadeas is only doing as the Sunmaker taught in modern Vorinism/Alethkar, and is consistent.

 

In my opinion, a hypocrite is a lot worse than an honest corrupt person.

[ljósmóður]

Some good arguments being made here.

 

For me - it's about my personal response to the characters as I read. Amaram makes my skin crawl whenever he's in a scene. It's visceral. I don't like Sadeas but I didn't have such a violent personal reaction to him as I did to Amaram.

 

Amaram is too much like real-life fundamentalists who believe that the ends justify their means. I don't like real life fundamentalists either. There is nothing scarier than someone who honestly believes the dangerous rhetoric they are feeding other people.

 

 

 

Edited for spelling.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Mrs.K.Stormblessed

[Jondesu]

They're both cremlings, but I think the key is that Amaram truly believes what he did was right, yet still hides it from everyone else behind a false face of honor.  That makes him simultaneously more dangerous, and more evil, in my eyes.  It's a close call even with that difference, though, in terms of what we see them do in the story.

 

jW

[Numuhuku]

Emphasis mine.  Amaram was willing to bring about a Desolation, which in times past have wiped out 90%+ of the entire population of the planet, just so that his personal church would have more power in the world again.  Sadeas was willing to kill 6000 soldiers to create a unified structure of government mostly under his control.  Amaram's goals aren't noble in the least, certainly not any more than Sadeas.  The only real difference in what they did was on a matter of scale.  

Yeah, this. You can't really argue that Amaram is somehow better than Sadeass for planning what the latter did, only MANY MANY orders of magnitude greater. Only big difference is that Amaram is a bit more of a idealistic true believer*, and is better at public relations. And I'm not sure either of those things absolve him from wanting to bring about a desolation.

 

*Though you could argue that earnestness makes Amaram worse. Purely self interested are usually self-interested enough to not want to watch the entire world burn. Sadeass may be a cremling, but he's a petty cremling who probably wouldn't have wrecked the world tooooo badly in the grand scheme of things.

Edited June 23, 2015 by Numuhuku

[natc]

We do not know enough about the Sons of Honor to truly understand their ways. It could be they did not think the Desolation would really come as it once did. Remember they hardly know anything about the previous Desolation so I'd wager their information are not quite accurate. Again, this is pure speculation, but we simply do not know. In the advent we are missing some crucial information on both Amaram and the Sons of Honor (Galivar was a Son of Honor, did he truly wanted to slaughter his kingdom?), I cannot ranged Amaram as more evil than Sadeas.

We do not know yet. As I said, it could very well be he is, I certainly would not be surprised, but so far, in books, Sadeas has committed the worst atrocities for not other reasons than his own personal benefit. He was even foolish enough to delude himself into thinking it was a good thing for the kingdom. He seemed truly convinced he could simply kill Elhokar and the Highprinces would range behind him: he was a fool. Nobody would have ever followed him.

Dalinar fails because he wants it all NOW. He wants the Highprinces to change their ways, but what he offers them is not inviting, worst it clashes against their mentalities. He naively believe if he acts honorably, others would simply take his example, without him taking time to explain why they should, heck even Adolin does not understand why Dalinar insist so much on his Code. He has been following it for 6 years and Dalinar never once, before WoK, stopped himself to explain it, in understandable worlds, not parabola, to his son why. If he own son has trouble making sense out of it, in which world would the Highprinces adopt his ways?

Dalinar has not tackled at the problem in the right way. He does not want to compromised, but he will have to, if he wants a unified kingdom.

Sadeas took advantage of it. He saw his old friend weakening, so he goes out of his way to remove him and his only worthy son (in Sadeas's eyes). To do so, he was willing to kill anyone standing in his ways.

I have yet to see the confirmation Amaram would do the same or that he truly is aware of what a Desolation is.

Can't really blame a man for being hasty about uniting when everything points to the world ending in just over a month.

[maxal]

Can't really blame a man for being hasty about uniting when everything points to the world ending in just over a month.

 

I do not blame him, but I do think he is not tackling the problem appropriately. 

[natc]

He didn't have very much choice in the matter by that point

[maxal]

He didn't have very much choice in the matter by that point

 

He had 6 years to change his strategy. By this point, I agree he may not have much choice left, though I still believe the key to uniting is to learn to be guiding as opposed of enforcing. He will need to learn he cannot chastised everyone who fails at maintaining his code of life. He needs to help them understand why they should adjust their ways and he perhaps need to learn leniency. 

 

I believe this is the lesson Dalinar will learn in book 3 and it will be mostly fuel with the ordeal of his son.

[DreamEternal]

The visions didn't start right after his brother's death, did they? I remember he was already at the shattered plains, with the greatest number of gemhearths, when he began to change.

[maxal]

The visions didn't start right after his brother's death, did they? I remember he was already at the shattered plains, with the greatest number of gemhearths, when he began to change.

 

I do not think they started right after... but he started to up-hold the Way of Kings following Galivar's death. So he has tried to be more honorable for the past 6 years and yet he has failed to explain to his son why. I have always found astonishing how little Adolin has been told about the events surrounding his uncle's death and how Dalinar just assumed his son (and everyone else for that matter) would simply end up following his way without him having to justify himself.

 

The problem with Dalinar is he expects people to do as he says simply because he says so. He is an enforcer as opposed to a guide, but he needs to learn to forget the former and become the later.