Religions?

[Orlion Blight]

4 hours ago, Draginon said:

I had heard before that the serpent and the devil being the same was a more recent invention to have things make more sense, similar to how Adam's first wife was a more modern invention to explain where the demons and monsters came from since she is supposedly only mentioned once and only in passing mention, so the source I heard it from must've been misinformed since I haven't read genesis myself. Also I've also heard that Satan and Lucifer aren't the same person, similar to how Laura Ingalls used three different girls she knew to make the all in one character of Nellie Olson in her Little House books, so that whole thing could just be speculation.

 You are pretty much correct. 

Based on textual evidence, the serpent is just a serpent (possibly with legs), Lucifer would be Nebuchadnezzar or Babylon and Satan took on more of an accusatory lawyer role  (see Book of Job and Psalms).

The Satanic rebellion has it's origins in the story of Sataneal and we got another version in Revelation. As Christianity developed, we got the version of the devil that we see nowadays (possibly enunciated by Milton's Paradise Lost)

[Draginon]

1 hour ago, Orlion On a Cob said:

 You are pretty much correct. 

Based on textual evidence, the serpent is just a serpent (possibly with legs), Lucifer would be Nebuchadnezzar or Babylon and Satan took on more of an accusatory lawyer role  (see Book of Job and Psalms).

The Satanic rebellion has it's origins in the story of Sataneal and we got another version in Revelation. As Christianity developed, we got the version of the devil that we see nowadays (possibly enunciated by Milton's Paradise Lost)

Thanks, I didn't think I was crazy on that!

[ParadoxicalZen]

Ah cool, I did find it strange given the (what can be called relative timeline) as it seemed odd to have Lucifer descend yet still have access to Eden (whether or not he was the snake exempt)

[Haelbarde]

23 hours ago, Calderis said:

Lucifer is the name, devil, Satan, the enemy, are all pretty synonymous for him. 

The one I always found interesting is the title "The Morning Star." it was Lucifer's title as the leader of the choirs of heaven, but in later works, through coincidence or misunderstanding, some later used the title for Jesus. 

@ParadoxicalZen from everything I always understood, the expulsion was pre-creation. 

Lucifer literally means Morning Star. And the only time the word appears in the Bible is in Isaiah 14:22, which is just talking about the King of Babylon (v4,22). Most translations opt to translate it 'morning star' over 'Lucifer' as well.

---

As far as ParadoxicalZen's question goes - I personally don't believe in any Devil/Satan or what have you (the devil is just a reference to our tendency to sin (so James 1:14-15 is basically the extent of it)). So my response would be nothing like that happens at all, but that's possibly not so useful to you.

Edited August 20, 2017 by Haelbarde
Video devil? Don't be silly autocorrect...

[Oversleep]

The way it was explained to me, the snake in ancient cultures was regarded as we see the owl -  the symbol of knowledge and all that stuff. The whole satan thing may not be accurate at all or the association came much later.

[Hood]

4 hours ago, Oversleep said:

The way it was explained to me, the snake in ancient cultures was regarded as we see the owl -  the symbol of knowledge and all that stuff. The whole satan thing may not be accurate at all or the association came much later.

Wow, we have a totally opposite view regarding the two. Here, snakes (except one, I think) are not shown in good light. In Mahabharata, there is even a sacrifice of snakes. Regarding the owl, calling someone owl is akin to calling him stupid. Panchtantra has a story about their supposed stupidity (to their own detriment ofc).

[Jondesu]

18 hours ago, Hood said:

Wow, we have a totally opposite view regarding the two. Here, snakes (except one, I think) are not shown in good light. In Mahabharata, there is even a sacrifice of snakes. Regarding the owl, calling someone owl is akin to calling him stupid. Panchtantra has a story about their supposed stupidity (to their own detriment ofc).

I think of our general impression of snakes here in the USA is negative as well.  Calling someone a snake is saying they're deceptive and a liar, often a con man.  I suspect thats partially because of that view of the serpent in the garden.

Back in Hebrew culture, the story of Genesis would probably have been recorded by Moses sometime during their desert travels, though I don't think we know for sure. At one point they had a plague of venomous snakes, and Moses was told to make a bronze snake and place it on a pole; anyone who looked at the snake was healed. That's the origin of the medical symbol of a snake wrapped around a pole.  It isn't about a positive view of snakes there.

The thing about owls in your culture is interesting. Here we always talk about the "wise old owl" and they're usually seen as wise and knowledgeable.

[Sunbird]

Just popping in to add that in some cultures, owls are seen as omens of death and bad luck.

[Retsam]

On 8/20/2017 at 10:52 AM, Haelbarde said:

Lucifer literally means Morning Star. And the only time the word appears in the Bible is in Isaiah 14:22, which is just talking about the King of Babylon (v4,22). Most translations opt to translate it 'morning star' over 'Lucifer' as well.

---

As far as ParadoxicalZen's question goes - I personally don't believe in any Devil/Satan or what have you (the devil is just a reference to our tendency to sin (so James 1:14-15 is basically the extent of it)). So my response would be nothing like that happens at all, but that's possibly not so useful to you.

Actually, "Morning Star" also appears in Revelations 22:16, as a title of Jesus.  Granted, it's a different Greek word, in Isaiah it's Φωσφόρος (in the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the OT that was in use when the NT was written), while the Revelations passage is  ὁ ἀστὴρ ὁ λαμπρός, ὁ πρωϊνός ("star, bright, morning", but translated "bright morning star") so the similarity between the titles is only really an English language thing, I think.  

But that's why "Morning Star" as a title carries some ambiguity to it.  (Fun fact, that bit of ambiguity is why it was chosen for the title of the third Red Rising book)

[Haelbarde]

14 hours ago, Retsam said:

Actually, "Morning Star" also appears in Revelations 22:16, as a title of Jesus.  Granted, it's a different Greek word, in Isaiah it's Φωσφόρος (in the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the OT that was in use when the NT was written), while the Revelations passage is  ὁ ἀστὴρ ὁ λαμπρός, ὁ πρωϊνός ("star, bright, morning", but translated "bright morning star") so the similarity between the titles is only really an English language thing, I think.  

But that's why "Morning Star" as a title carries some ambiguity to it.  (Fun fact, that bit of ambiguity is why it was chosen for the title of the third Red Rising book)

My intent had been that it's the only the Lucifer appears in the text (of the KJV at least), though fair point. The point is still that it's not intended to be a name, and definitely not of a hypothetical devil/angel.

And that's cool/interesting piece of trivia!

[Kaymyth]

On 8/20/2017 at 9:52 AM, Haelbarde said:

Lucifer literally means Morning Star. And the only time the word appears in the Bible is in Isaiah 14:22, which is just talking about the King of Babylon (v4,22). Most translations opt to translate it 'morning star' over 'Lucifer' as well.

---

As far as ParadoxicalZen's question goes - I personally don't believe in any Devil/Satan or what have you (the devil is just a reference to our tendency to sin (so James 1:14-15 is basically the extent of it)). So my response would be nothing like that happens at all, but that's possibly not so useful to you.

Another solid translation of Lucifer is "Lightbringer." There are some folks out there who have had some fun equating him with the Prometheus myth.

[Retsam]

3 hours ago, Kaymyth said:

Another solid translation of Lucifer is "Lightbringer." There are some folks out there who have had some fun equating him with the Prometheus myth.

Brent Weeks, for example.

[Oversleep]

On 22.08.2017 at 2:39 PM, Jondesu said:

That's the origin of the medical symbol of a snake wrapped around a pole

I'm pretty sure that one can be traced back to Greek mythology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_of_Asclepius

[Darkness Ascendant]

I always found this fun Lucifer/Morning Star/Venus

Venus named for the Goddess of Love. Honestly one can go so deep into it, Phosphorous/Heosphorous etc etc

The conception of Venus and the fall of Lucifer etc.

Anyway, I'm more interested in the snakes and owls

Snakes and Owls are dope.

End of story.

Nah, so the thing with snakes and owls is...they're kinda both familiar and exotic you get me? Everyone knows snakes, everyone has probably seen/heard of a snake (probably not an owl) in the area, but they always seem to be these elusive creatures, these creatures surrounded in myth and lore and endless and endless symbolism. Some peeps saw the snake as a symbol of fertility, as in Snake=Umbilical Cord. And plenty of iterations of "Mother Earth" have snakes as their familiars.

 

Lucifer being the serpent could be the symbolism of Eternity and Infinity. Perhaps as Hell is Eternal and Infinite (which is amusing as Sins are finite). And mortal sin is infinitely punishable, and well, immortal through time as humanity seems to continue sinning these sins. (and one could say are infinitely guilty of them). Then there's that Infinite/Original Sin thing, which I never read much of. Don't really remember much of it either.

 

Also Ouroborous (the snake eating its tail). A symbol of the sea (as in the Jomungandr the world serpent), which is amusing as again Venus/Morningstar/Lucifer/Ouroborous, as Venus was born in the sea. Ouroborous also being a symbol of cycles and life/death or of sin and repentance. And then Amduat, the state of existence before Creation, which is represented by a serpent, from which creation came forth. Similar to Eros and Chaos. (Eros in turn being “Love”). One could see this as Lucifer betraying God’s love, (In Islam its more prominent as Iblis was in fact a Jinn not an Angel and was quite prestiged and privileged to have a place as a leader of Angels). Again creation from Aboriginal and African mythos akin to the Rainbow Serpent. And I just read about this recently, but in Chinese Mythology, the female-headed snake Nuwa made the first humans from clay.

 

Gorgons, Aepep, Nidhogg, can really be considered “evil”. Gorgons being evil in action, Nagas and Naginis I don’t know much about, other than that they’re demon cobras, not sure if they’re really “evil” tho. Aepep symbolised Chaos and attacked Ra’s Sunship, symbolising Order. Nidhogg can be considered truly evil in this case, in nature, being the serpent/dragon gnawing at the base of the Ygdrassil, ensnared around it and trying to choke the life out of it. Then there are beasts such as Leviathan, the seven headed crocodile-serpent thing, Scylla with snake necks, Saint George and his serpent/dragon, Saint Colombus and the Loch Ness (XD).

 

The Mayans had Quetzalcoatl, (hey could be a compromise between Owl and Serpent ) Who just happened to be a god of intelligence and wind. I love how Serpents are considered intelligent as they appear to be “thoughtful” before they strike. Same with Owls, tho Owls are smart in their ruthless efficiency at times. Anyway, so Quetzalcoatl is balanced by this other serpent spirit of sacrifice, portrayed as evil I think. And this one was one of the four pillars which supported the sky in Mayan mythos. And I forgot to mention Aesculapius, whose snake familiars would nurse people back to health.

 

Tbf, most of these are really based on imagery rather than snake-like qualities. By now I’m just rambling about snakes >> I do love how knowledgeable you guys are when it comes to actual religious texts, I haven’t read any besides the Quran :/ I do wish to in the future. As for the snake wrapped around the pole thing, I thought that was Aesculapius’ Rod @Jondesu

 

@Hood it’s funny how you guys sacrifice snakes when in Mayan mythos they have a snake of sacrifice hahaha. I just love drawing connections between myths and religions and seeing how different views everyone has.

 

Snakes do have a bad connotation, though mostly it doesn’t tend to do with all ^^^^^that stuff, its probably because snakes are indeed dangerous, and people have had bad run ins or have heard of bad run ins with snakes and things, if you asked a random person in the street whether they thought. Yeah they’re dangerous. But insanely cool

Oh @Oversleep already did Rod of Aesculapius/Asclepius

I'm going to ramble about owls next, but I should get to school right now  

[Calderis]

@Darkness Ascendant no offense intended by this, because I honestly loved the post and everything in it, but how sleep deprived are you right now?

[Jondesu]

5 hours ago, Oversleep said:

I'm pretty sure that one can be traced back to Greek mythology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_of_Asclepius

You and @Darkness Ascendant appear to be correct. I must have been remembering some bad information.

[Darkness Ascendant]

9 hours ago, Calderis said:

@Darkness Ascendant no offense intended by this, because I honestly loved the post and everything in it, but how sleep deprived are you right now?

So its settled, tonight/tomorrowmorning, we speak about Owls!

Thanks guys x3

[+Extesian]

1 hour ago, Darkness Ascendant said:

So its settled, tonight/tomorrowmorning, we speak about Owls!

Thanks guys x3

[Hood]

About snake sacrifice. It is not any usual sacrifice thing. I mean, Hindus just don't sacrifice snakes. They just have a bad reputation. In Mahabharata, there is a reason for the sacrifice. The sacrifice was performed by a king Janamjeya in revenge for a snake killing his father Parikshit.

No, the people in the Mahabharata don't go around sacrificing animals like that. The death of Parikshit was a catastrophe. With his death Kal Yug, an age/era which all feared (it is kind of a dystopia) (rightly so), had arrived to his kingdom. Parikshit was one of the reasons it arrived later to the kingdom. 

[Ammanas]

@Hood Since you are Hindu perhaps you can answer a question for this ignorant American. Could you explain the veneration of cows? It's my understanding they are fairly high on the types of life that are possible in the reincarnation cycle and could possibly be a ancestor? Also what is the end goal for the religion? I think nirvana is Buddhism...I know I could look these things up, but I prefer hearing about religion from those who practice it.

[Hood]

There are many reasons for veneration of cows. Firstly, they're very useful for the pastoral society. Cows give milk which is given great value in the scriptures, I think it is called Satvic too. Apart from food, cow dung was used as a fuel (have seen it myself when I was a small kid). Ghee, is used in food as well as in religious practices like yajna (fire worship). The animal is big but very gentle. Because of all this, it was an ideal pet (or smth like that, I mean like horses are pets or so) for saints in ancient times (there are some in mythology too).  

So, yeah, cows are held in pretty high regard. Highest of all animals perhaps, if you see the present situations (only an Indian can understand this reference).

The end goal of Hinduism, as far as I know, is to be free from the constant cycle of birth-death-repeat (endless loop type of), or you can say reincarnation cycle. You can read Geeta (Bhagwat Geeta) to know it in more detail. It is a nice short book, and has many stories too. 

[Darkness Ascendant]

Ok, so owls.

Owls are dope. Why? Because I love death (sorry :P) and owls consistently have been seen as fortune-tellers and harbringers of death (:P) and lots of other nasty stuff like bad health and disasters . Honestly they’re basically the real life Absol. Creeps. They just come over and if you hear it hoot , you can die! (If you want to hear an owl hoot put your hands up!)

*puts hands up

Shakespeare, Kenya, Pliny, Virgil, Ovid, most Native American tribes agree with me! Of course, most are also dead already (It was the owl…)

They’re associated with witches, shamans, the unknown, wisdom, luck, stolen children, eaten children, bad children, spiritual leaders, and forest management departments.

Pliny calls it the funerary bird, a monster of the night and the very abomination of humankind. I wonder what the poor bird did to deserve this. Native North American tribes (some of them) have this thing were the owl is a sort of bogeyman. They tell their children “Don’t cry or the owls will get you” etc, a couple see it as protection against the dark forces...mm again, seeing the contradiction and all these different beliefs is great.

The view that they are harbringers and messengers of death is prevalent as well. Heck, the Aztec god of death Mictlantorillcutyouup or something along those lines was frequently depicted as an owl!

Cuando el tecolote canta, el indio muere

When the owl cries, the Indian dies!

-some mexican saying

I don’t know much about English Folklore (It honestly hasn’t really piqued my interest) but they are mainly seen as creatures of darkness (wow so they’re nocturnal, so what?) so much, that Robert Blair and William Wordsworth said they were their favourite “bird of doom”

Am I the only one getting chills?

The Romans reckoned if they nailed a dead one (well if it was alive at the time its certainly dead soon) on their door, any evil they brought would be averted. Hey this reminds me alot of racism and stuff!

Again here, to here the hoot of an owl meant death and destruction (so this is how the world ends, not with a bang, but with a hoot).

Julius Caesar, Augustus, Commodus Aurelius, and Agrippa, all their deaths were predicted by the hoota (apparently). OH, Ascalpus, the dude who snitched on Prosperpine (*sigh, romans and their copypastaing) for eating in the underworld, was turned into a screech owl for causing that trouble (remember kids, don’t snitch or you’ll turn into an owl).

So uh.

Athena liked owls! Better than the mischievous crow, (tut tut you silly old thing), she thought it was solemn and serious (unlike someone, yes you, you silly old thing), it had wisdom and stuff! And was put on the back of a...tachydrachma? Something. The Mongols liked em too! Saw them as a benign omens. And so did the Japs (served them so well in WWII aye? ...ok too far? Sure why not). They carried em as charms and talismans.

*blinks

That’s a suprising amount of writing, can’t believe I managed to stretch my knowledge for that amount of writing xD

I would have done this earlier, but been a bit unmotivated and stuff. Oh look a bird.

Until next time folks

 

Edited August 26, 2017 by Darkness Ascendant
Funny how small the bright side is :ph34r:

[AngelEy3]

On 8/21/2017 at 1:18 PM, Hood said:

Wow, we have a totally opposite view regarding the two. Here, snakes (except one, I think) are not shown in good light. In Mahabharata, there is even a sacrifice of snakes. Regarding the owl, calling someone owl is akin to calling him stupid. Panchtantra has a story about their supposed stupidity (to their own detriment ofc).

The English collective noun for owls is a "Parliament." based on the idea that wise people gather there. 

[Sunbird]

1 hour ago, AngelEy3 said:

The English collective noun for owls is a "Parliament." based on the idea that wise people gather there. 

This is one of my favorite fun facts about the English language.

[+Slowswift]

18 hours ago, AngelEy3 said:

The English collective noun for owls is a "Parliament." based on the idea that wise people gather there. 

 

17 hours ago, Sunbird said:

This is one of my favorite fun facts about the English language.

I'm trying to figure out if I should tell the joke I just thought up or not. Since it could potentially be... politically divisive, probably not.