Scadrial Geography, Allomantic Mechanics, and some Preservation/Ruin questions

FlashWrogan · October 11, 2012

Edit: There are spoilers here for HoA

Edit 2: I have added a spoiler tag at the end of each section or question summing up the conclusions I have come to for each question. I have also included follow-up questions or holes in my conclusions. Please disagree, discuss etc!

I just finished reading through the MIstborn Trilogy for the first time since learning about the Cosmere, and other theories that are being thrown around in the forum and have found some things that took place on Scadrial that don't add up. These are questions I was unable to answer through research on the site. I apologize if some of these things have been hashed out before. I apologize in advance for the long post. I decided it would be better to put my questions in one topic rather than posting multiple topics. Once we've hashed these out, I'll post any unanswered qs to the Brandon question list thread.

Before each question I will write my assumptions that lead me to the problem that I discovered. If I'm incorrect about any of these it may be an easy solution to the problems I've encountered.

Scadrial Geography, Day/Night Cycles, and Axial Tilt

Brandon: A compass would work, but remember that the Final Empire is set at the north pole of Scadrial, but not necessarily at the magnetic north pole. These things are complicated, but just assume that it works the same way it would here on Earth.

Assumptions: The final empire is centered, more or less, on the north pole. The map of the final empire emplies that the north pole is centered in the middle of the Terris Dominance, however the Northern Dominance points in a more easterly direction by the look of the map. The map isn't real clear on where north is or the shape of the pole. I have always pictured Luthadel being centered on the north pole (therefore a different orientation of the compass) and the other group of humans being centered on the south pole due to the equatorial regions being too hot. There is clearly an axial tilt of some sort since we see a regular cycle of seasons, so this means there is some sort of arctic circle. This creates a problem:

1. Why do we see normal day/night cycles in the final empire when most or all of it is in the arctic circle?

2. How severe is the axial tilt? (I remember hearing from Sanderson somewhere that the winters were not as severe, so that might mean a smaller tilt and a smaller arctic circle)

3. When vin turned the planet to turn it to night, wouldn't the night have only covered half of the empire?

Alternatively, it could be that the north pole is centered in the Terris Dominance, with a small arctic circle. This could present a more earth-normal setup for the the empire but this still presents a problem:

4. In this scenario the habitable region outside the Terris Dominance would look like a ring, being below the arctic circle and above the scorched equatorial region. The events of misborn then would have had to taken place on only half of the ring. What, then, is on the other half of that ring since it should be just as habitable?

Answers:

Here we go. Chaos found the HoA annotations that talked about this (chapter 76):

One of my big challenges in the geography of this world was figuring out how we could have a kingdom set at the pole of the world while at the same time maintaining a normal day/night cycle. My original plan was for the Well of Ascension to be located a distance to the north of Luthadel, up at the geographic north pole of the planet. When I was revising the second book, I realized that wouldn't work for various reasons. (More on this on the MISTBORN 2 Alternate Ending deleted scene page.) I changed things so that when the Lord Ruler held the power in the Well, he decoupled the geographic north pole and the magnetic north pole.
In our world, the magnetic north pole is located about eleven degrees of latitude south of the geographic north pole. On Scadrial, the two poles were originally in the same location. When the Lord Ruler moved the planet too close to its sun and realized he didn't have the control to place the planet in the proper orbit, he created the ashmounts to cool the atmosphere. He also wanted to keep access to the Well under his control, so he decided to build his capital city right above it. However, he realized that on a planet with a tilted axis, a city at the north pole would have seasonal daylight variation so extreme that at the height of summer the sun would never set and during the dead of winter the sun would never rise. He could remove the axis's tilt, but that would just make the sun perpetually skirt the horizon all year round.

What Rashek decided to do (and he had to make split-second decisions in the brief time he held the power) was to shift the crust of the whole planet so that the Well was at a latitude that would have more standard seasonal variation, and to re-create the Terris mountains in the new North (to maintain the rumors that the Well was located there). He worried that the new location of Luthadel would be too hot due to the latitude, but it turned out that moving the Well created an unexpected effect. The planet's magnetic pole followed the Well as he relocated it—and the ash from the ashmounts was slightly ferromagnetic. (Ferromagnetic volcanic ash has some precedent in our world.) So the interaction of the ash with the planet's magnetic field's new alignment meant that its protective cloak over the area of the Final Empire caused it to be cooler than the now unprotected geographic north pole.

One side effect of this is that all compasses point toward Luthadel. Since it's been that way for a thousand years, no one finds it odd—in fact, it's used as evidence of the Lord Ruler's divinity. It also makes it mathematically very easy to pinpoint one's exact location in the Final Empire using a combination of the compass reading and noon observations. Not that it's easy to get lost in the Final Empire in the first place—the geographical area of the planet's surface that the Final Empire covers is actually quite small.

Ultimately, when it comes down to sophisticated geography and astrophysics, I'm out of my element. If there are mistakes in my reasoning above, that is why I write fantasy and not hard sf.

And I still haven't said anything about what happened at the south pole.

Which leads to my conclusion that I wrote in response:

The orbit and axial tilt of Scadrial is virtually the same as Earth. The axial north pole is located in Terris and the magnetic north pole is located at the WoA in Luthadel, the second of these attracting a good portion of the ash and giving it extra cover from the sun which allows for the next point. Luthadel is located in what would be earths temporate region (around the same latitude as Europe). This latitude is much hotter on Scadrial, but the magnetic pole and the ash makes up for that. This gives Luthadel a normal day/night and seasonal cycle.

In addition, we can assume that the opposite longitude of Luthadel is a much higher temperature to the point of being uninhabitable. Therefore the answers to the questions:

1. Luthadel is in the normal temperate region, which gives normal day/night cycles

2. As answered by Brandon, comparable to Earth

3. Not an issue if Luthadel is well below the arctic circle.

4. This issue is solved by the magnetic nature of the ash. The empire is better covered by ash due to the magnetic north pole, so the other side of the "ring" is uninhabitable due to heat.

Additional questions/problems

11. What do we see on the southern end of the planet concerning, ashmounts, ash, and the southern magnetic pole? This population being a "control" group, do they have any ash down there? If not, does that mean they only live on the south pole due to temperature. (I know we don't have a whole lot of info here, so it is mostly guesswork)

Allomancy mechanics

Duralamin and the Mists

Assumptions: Duralamin always burns away whatever stores of a metal you are burning, expending all that power in a matter of moments.

5. What would have happened if vin had burned duralamin and some other metal (such as pewter or steel) while burning the mists?

Answer:

Chaos was the only one to tackle this, and I liked his response:

5.

It certainly would not exhaust Preservation's power--that power is far vaster than someone's use of Allomancy, unimaginably so. Since Vin had infinite access to metals during that, I'm not sure duralumin would even do anything. After all, she blew up Kredik Shaw by herself. She wasn't hindered by an upper bound for flaring metals anymore, I don't think (but it has been a while since I've read that sequence), which is what duralumin does.
I think that, if anything, duralumin burning the mists would have made Vin become Preservation that much faster.

Interaction between weight and Steelpush/Ironpull power

Hero of Ages Chapter 3:
Elend flipped a coin into the air. A single, sparking bit of copper spun through the flakes of ash. The Inquisitor saw this, and smiled again, obviously anticipating Elend’s Push. It assumed that its weight would transfer through the coin, then hit Elend’s weight, since Elend would be Pushing as well. Two Allomancers of near-similar weight, shoving against each other. They would both be thrown back—the Inquisitor to attack Vin, Elend into a pile of koloss.

Except, the Inquisitor didn’t anticipate Elend’s Allomantic strength. How could it? Elend did stumble, but the Inquisitor was thrown away with a sudden, violent Push.

Assumptions: This scene has never made sense to me. This may be because of some physics illiteracy on my part, but I have always assumed that the weight of two allomancers is independent of their power to push or pull. Let me explain. Two mistborn, both 200lbs push on the same coin suspended directly between the two. Mistborn #1 has twice the push power as #2. The power is transmitted through the coin and would be equalized between the two mistborn, pushing them both the same distance. The increased power of mistborn #1 simply meant they both flew further.

6. Is weight independent of pulling or pushing power, making this scene inconsistent with physics? (If I am wrong about this can someone explain what I am missing?)

This one has gotten a LOT of attention and opinions.

6, Whether or not mass is independent of power, this scene can be explained by stance and bracing. Elend was expecting a more powerful pushback but the inquisitor wasn't. As such he could have positioned himself better and not hardly moved in comparison to the inquisitor.

Follow-up:

12. I haven't seen anyone properly address whether mass and power act independently or not from a scientific perspective. People have either made the assumption that they are dependent (which I don't agree) or they try to explain in a way that still manages to incorporate mass with the power of the push. Maybe my brain is just being dyslexic on this?

Preservation, Ruin, and the use of shards

Kelsier taking up Preservation

Assumptions: As far as we know of, Kelsier is the only person to take up a shard after death, and release it by some mechanic other than dying (My prime example is Vin, but both Leras and Ati didn't give up a shard till they died). So . . .:

7. How did Kelsier take up and release preservations power from beyond death?

Answer:

Chaos had a good answer for this as well:

7.

Well, I think that simply speaking, Kelsier never fully took up Preservation. He is dead, so he can't take the power up.
Rather think about it this way: with Leras's death, the Shard Preservation needed to have some mind take up the power, until its new holder could take it. So Kelsier was lending himself for that task. He wasn't bound to the Shard like Leras or Vin was, and once Vin became Preservation, Kelsier's services were no longer required.

Kelsier speaking to Spook and Vin

Assumptions: We see ruin speak in peoples minds only through a spike piercing them. When Vin's earing is ripped out by marsh, Ruin's voice is cut off. Preservation's ability to directly communicate seemed to be limited to the mist figure appearing and using body language. So then:

8. How did Kelsier speak in Spook and Vin's head while holding Preservation, when Preservation could never do that before? (I recognize this could have been because Leras' mind was reduced, however shouldn't there be some sort of medium for Pres to communicate similar to the spikes?)

Answer:

Again Chaos answered this to my satisfaction:

8.

I think Kelsier was able to speak to Spook and Vin for separate reasons.
In Spook's case, Kelsier could communicate with him because Spook actually had a real faith in Kelsier. That helps the divine communication. For Vin, I believe Kelsier could only speak to Vin near the very end, right before Vin took up the power and after Marsh tore out the earring. I don't think is inherently mysterious: Vin is so close to the mists (and therefore Preservation) that it would have been much easier for Kelsier to communicate with the future holder of Preservation.

Ruin Choosing Vin

Hero of Ages Epigraph:
She once asked Ruin why he had chosen her. The primary answer is simple. It had little to do with her personality, attitudes, or even skill with Allomancy.

She was simply the only child Ruin could find who was in a position to gain the right Hemalurgic spike—one that would grant her heightened power with bronze, which would then let her sense the location of the Well of Ascension. She had an insane mother, a sister who was a Seeker, and was—herself—Mistborn. That was precisely the combination Ruin needed.

There were other reasons, of course. But even Ruin didn't know them.

9. What reasons for choosing vin did ruin not know? (I'm sure someone has hashed this out somewhere, but I couldn't find it)

Several of us came to the conclusion that this reason belonged to Preservation, who was able to plot out (more or less) the events of HoA before he gave up his mind to imprison Ruin, and therefore was able to manipulate Ruin's choice of Vin.

9. The reason for choosing Vin that Ruin did not know was a reason of Preservation's. Preservation, being better at seeing into the future than Ruin, was able to manipulate Ruin into choosing Vin as a false HoA. This was both in order to put Vin in a situation where she could kill Ati, and so Ruin would be distracted from the real hero.

Mist Snapping

Hero of Ages Epigraph:

The people misinterpreted the mists' intent, as the process of Snapping Allomancers caused some—particularly the young and the old—to die. This hadn't been Preservation's desire, but he'd given up most of his consciousness to form Ruin's prison, and the mists had to be left to work as best they could without specific direction.

Ruin, subtle as ever, knew that he couldn't stop the mists from doing their work. However, he could do the unexpected and encourage them. And so, he helped make them stronger. That brought death to the plants of the world, and created the threat that became known as the Deepness.

Assumptions: The mist was a part of Preservation, and it was he who designed the snapping setup. It was because the mist had no direction that it caused deaths in the young and old. Ruin encouraged the mists, causing the mists during the day and the Deepness. So:

10. Why did the mists start snapping people only at two points in history? Was it related to the Well of Ascension being filled?

Spacemonkey found a relavent quote from the HoA annotations:

by way of trivia, the mists changed the very moment the full power of the Well returned to be drawn again.

10. I think that we are safe to assume that Preservation rigged the mists to begin snapping whenever the well filled.

Follow up:

13. What caused the mists to stop snapping after Rashek took the power? We can assume the second time around that Sazed just waved his hand to stop the snapping since he was altering the whole snapping process anyway (I think I read about that at some point in an interview). But Vin taking up and releasing the power wasn't enough to stop the snapping. It could just be because Rashek actually used the power and either that specific trigger, or an action he took while using the power stopped the snapping. I'm not sure if I am satisfied with that however, since it has implications for who started the mists snapping in the first place.

Thanks for humoring me on my first post!

Edited October 18, 2012 by FlashWrogan

Observer · October 11, 2012

I'll answer some question, in no particular order. The other reason Ruin picked Vin was because Preservation had already chosen her, and by spiking her he thwarted his old enemy's plans. For a time.

I believe the mists were reacting to both the well and to Ruin, both of which were particularly active during those time periods. Ruin had a spiked pawn at both times, and the well was full. I assume that's what the mists were up to.

Note: Don't forget the Lord Ruler. It would have been within his power to shove the mists backwards power-wise, but probably not for long.

For Kelsier, there is either a yet unknown way to drop a shard or already being dead allowed him to do so.

I think he could talk to Vin and Spook because, like a Scadrians, he had a bit of Ruin in him, allowing for mental communications.

Elend pushes on coin, making it weigh his 200 pound plus an extra 100 or so thanks to his power. Inquisitor only does 200, and as such Elend takes the stumble from the Inquisitor's 200, and the Inquisitor takes the hit for the remaining 100 he didn't cancel.

That's all I've got for now, but:

*Terminator voice*

I'll be back.

FlashWrogan · October 12, 2012

I think he could talk to Vin and Spook because, like a Scadrians, he had a bit of Ruin in him, allowing for mental communications.

This doesn't make sense to me. The only time Ruin was ever able to speak to someone is when they had a spike piercing them. If I remember correctly, neither had a spike in them when Kelsier spoke to them. Also, Ruin's power to communicate is through Hemalurgy. I can't see Kelsier using Preservations power to communicate through Hemalurgy because of his little bit of Ruin that he has.

Elend pushes on coin, making it weigh his 200 pound plus an extra 100 or so thanks to his power. Inquisitor only does 200, and as such Elend takes the stumble from the Inquisitor's 200, and the Inquisitor takes the hit for the remaining 100 he didn't cancel.

Your assuming two things here which I don't think are correct here. One is that you assume the force of two opposite steelpushes on a coin to cancel each other out. If this were the case, Elend would have been able to cancel all 200lbs of force exherted by the inquisitor and would not have been pushed backward at all. Also, with this theory, two allomancers of equal weight and power pushing on a coin would exhert no force on each other because of canceling. However we know this is not the case, as they are both pushed backward.

The second thing you assume is that the force of two steelpushes are distributed in direct proportion to who exherts it. Take this example. 200 lb Elend exherting 100 lbs of force with his steelpush on on a coin with a 200 lb inquisitor on the other side exherting 50 lbs of force on the same coin. The fact that both are 200 lbs should determine that both allomancers are pushed away from the coin (if one was, say 400 lbs, he would have stayed stationary, while the coin would have moved from the force of his steelpush and the second allomancer with have moved from the force of bother steelpushes). So we have 100 lbs of force on one side and 50 lbs on the other. Here is where I get a bit fuzzy because I don't have a mathematical understanding of physics. You assume that 100 lbs of force is transmitted to the inquisitor and 50 lbs is transmitted to Elend. I don't know if I can really explain why, but it seems to me that either 75 or 150 lbs of force would be transmitted to both (i think because they are equal weights?).

The rest of your answers made sense to me though.

**Chaos** · October 12, 2012

Hey there, good to have you here! You're thinking quite well, and fortunately there are answers for a few of these questions. Let me see if I can help

However, I am a bit burnt out tonight to do deep astronomy questions. But cosmere? I can do that

5. What would have happened if vin had burned duralamin and some other metal (such as pewter or steel) while burning the mists?

Hmmm, I am not quite sure, but I don't think it would have had the effect you think it does. It certainly would not exhaust Preservation's power--that power is far vaster than someone's use of Allomancy, unimaginably so. Since Vin had infinite access to metals during that, I'm not sure duralumin would even do anything. After all, she blew up Kredik Shaw by herself. She wasn't hindered by an upper bound for flaring metals anymore, I don't think (but it has been a while since I've read that sequence), which is what duralumin does.

I think that, if anything, duralumin burning the mists would have made Vin become Preservation that much faster.

7. How did Kelsier take up and release preservations power from beyond death?

Well, I think that simply speaking, Kelsier never fully took up Preservation. He is dead, so he can't take the power up.

Rather think about it this way: with Leras's death, the Shard Preservation needed to have some mind take up the power, until its new holder could take it. So Kelsier was lending himself for that task. He wasn't bound to the Shard like Leras or Vin was, and once Vin became Preservation, Kelsier's services were no longer required.

As for why Kelsier was the one to take up Preservation for a time, rather than some other spirit... I think Brandon just chalked it up to "Kelsier is a meddler," haha.

8. How did Kelsier speak in Spook and Vin's head while holding Preservation, when Preservation could never do that before? (I recognize this could have been because Leras' mind was reduced, however shouldn't there be some sort of medium for Pres to communicate similar to the spikes?)

I think Kelsier was able to speak to Spook and Vin for separate reasons.

In Spook's case, Kelsier could communicate with him because Spook actually had a real faith in Kelsier. That helps the divine communication. For Vin, I believe Kelsier could only speak to Vin near the very end, right before Vin took up the power and after Marsh tore out the earring. I don't think is inherently mysterious: Vin is so close to the mists (and therefore Preservation) that it would have been much easier for Kelsier to communicate with the future holder of Preservation.

9. What reasons for choosing vin did ruin not know? (I'm sure someone has hashed this out somewhere, but I couldn't find it)

I'm not sure anyone has explicitly found the answer to that question.

10. Why did the mists start snapping people only at two points in history? Was it related to the Well of Ascension being filled?

Yes, it always began Snapping people when the Well was almost fully filled. I would assume this means that a thousand years before the Ascension, the mists Snapped then as well, but that era is well lost to history.

Thor · October 12, 2012

Edit: There are spoilers here for HoA

I just finished reading through the MIstborn Trilogy for the first time since learning about the Cosmere, and other theories that are being thrown around in the forum and have found some things that took place on Scadrial that don't add up. These are questions I was unable to answer through research on the site. I apologize if some of these things have been hashed out before. I apologize in advance for the long post. I decided it would be better to put my questions in one topic rather than posting multiple topics. Once we've hashed these out, I'll post any unanswered qs to the Brandon question list thread.

Before each question I will write my assumptions that lead me to the problem that I discovered. If I'm incorrect about any of these it may be an easy solution to the problems I've encountered.

Scadrial Geography, Day/Night Cycles, and Axial Tilt

Assumptions: The final empire is centered, more or less, on the north pole. The map of the final empire emplies that the north pole is centered in the middle of the Terris Dominance, however the Northern Dominance points in a more easterly direction by the look of the map. The map isn't real clear on where north is or the shape of the pole. I have always pictured Luthadel being centered on the north pole (therefore a different orientation of the compass) and the other group of humans being centered on the south pole due to the equatorial regions being too hot. There is clearly an axial tilt of some sort since we see a regular cycle of seasons, so this means there is some sort of arctic circle. This creates a problem:

1. Why do we see normal day/night cycles in the final empire when most or all of it is in the arctic circle?

Since Chaos is not feeling like it, I guess I will take a shot at the astronomical questions. The Magnetic North Pole of Scadrial is located at the Well of Ascension and the other group of humans is indeed at the Magnetic South Pole. And, good point. I had an idea that Luthadel, and thus the Final Empire, are at a rather low latitude (30 degrees), but, after some research, this doesn't really work.

Perhaps Scadrial doesn't rotate around its magnetic axis? Other than the incredibly weird physics involved (due to magnetic interactions, probably not possible in our reality. Shards, they mess things up.), this would seem to fix all the problems. If the rotational axis is similar to the Earth's rotational axis, then the Final Empire can exist at a non-polar latitude.

2. How severe is the axial tilt? (I remember hearing from Sanderson somewhere that the winters were not as severe, so that might mean a smaller tilt and a smaller arctic circle)

Originally, it was probably similar to Earth's (there have been some papers recently that suggest that severe axial tilts, at either extreme, will prevent life), though I am not sure on the current tilt.

3. When vin turned the planet to turn it to night, wouldn't the night have only covered half of the empire?

The planet was probably turned in a direction that it doesn't normally rotate at, with any of the ideas. Vin doesn't know much (anything) about astronomy and probably just moved the planet to whatever would save the people.

Alternatively, it could be that the north pole is centered in the Terris Dominance, with a small arctic circle. This could present a more earth-normal setup for the the empire but this still presents a problem:
4. In this scenario the habitable region outside the Terris Dominance would look like a ring, being below the arctic circle and above the scorched equatorial region. The events of misborn then would have had to taken place on only half of the ring. What, then, is on the other half of that ring since it should be just as habitable?

If true, then the other half of the ring is burned, as the ash from the ashmounts is the main reason that the Dominances aren't burning, while the location on the planet contributes less, imo (when the ash is removed, everyone burns in a few seconds, even Pewter burners.)

Assumptions: This scene has never made sense to me. This may be because of some physics illiteracy on my part, but I have always assumed that the weight of two allomancers is independent of their power to push or pull. Let me explain. Two mistborn, both 200lbs push on the same coin suspended directly between the two. Mistborn #1 has twice the push power as #2. The power is transmitted through the coin and would be equalized between the two mistborn, pushing them both the same distance. The increased power of mistborn #1 simply meant they both flew further.
6. Is weight independent of pulling or pushing power, making this scene inconsistent with physics? (If I am wrong about this can someone explain what I am missing?)

This is one of the problems with the physics of Pushes/Pulls. There are some threads on here that have taken stabs at it, but I don't think anything conclusive has been found.

Idea: perhaps the coin is pushed closer to the Mistborn who is less powerful (1/3rd the total distance between the Allomancers, closer to the weaker one), as that would be the location where the forces would balance, assuming the distance factor in Allomantic forces is linear, as opposed to quadratic/exponential/etc.. Therefore, when the forces are resolved (meaning that after the object reaches an equilibrium, the force rebounds on the Allomancers), the stronger Allomancer is pushed back some distance and the weaker Allomancer is pushed back twice that distance because the equilibrium is closer to the weaker Allomancer, meaning he gets the majority of the force exerted by the two. (This doesn't really make much sense with Physics, but Allomancy doesn't work to well at that anyway: pushing [non-allomantically] on a steel wall just means that I don't move the wall because I don't have enough strength. Pushing on a wall rebounds the force of the Push to me, which makes no sense in our world.) If the distance factor is non-linear, then the difference could be much greater (I am inclined to think that the distance factor is non-linear, as I will explain below.)

This would also work if one includes weight (mass is the correct term in this case, though). Assume that there are two Allomancers, but one is on a rather strict diet (100 lbs) and the other is fine (200 lbs). If both have the same Allomantic strength, then the situation is the same as above, and the lighter Allomancer is Pushed twice as far as the heavier one (as mass is linear, I hope). This introduces an interesting dynamic if the distance factor is non-linear, as a stronger Allomancer can win in a Pushing contest against a more massive opponent (Vin vs. Kelsier), though in similar strength situations, the heavier Allomancer will most likely win.

Also take into account that bracing and positioning helps a lot in Allomancy. Even having better footing (as opposed to the opponent) would give quite an edge in a Pushing battle.

*snip*
Thanks for humoring me on my first post!

Welcome to the 17th Shard! Seems like you will fit in nicely here.

Edited October 12, 2012 by Thor

**Kurkistan** · October 12, 2012

<snip>
This is one of the problems with the physics of Pushes/Pulls. There are some threads on here that have taken stabs at it, but I don't think anything conclusive has been found.

Idea: perhaps the coin is pushed closer to the Mistborn who is less powerful (1/3rd the total distance between the Allomancers, closer to the weaker one), as that would be the location where the forces would balance, assuming the distance factor in Allomantic forces is linear, as opposed to quadratic/exponential/etc.. Therefore, when the forces are resolved (meaning that after the object reaches an equilibrium, the force rebounds on the Allomancers), the stronger Allomancer is pushed back some distance and the weaker Allomancer is pushed back twice that distance because the equilibrium is closer to the weaker Allomancer, meaning he gets the majority of the force exerted by the two. (This doesn't really make much sense with Physics, but Allomancy doesn't work to well at that anyway: pushing [non-allomantically] on a steel wall just means that I don't move the wall because I don't have enough strength. Pushing on a wall rebounds the force of the Push to me, which makes no sense in our world.) If the distance factor is non-linear, then the difference could be much greater (I am inclined to think that the distance factor is non-linear, as I will explain below.)

<snip>

No, Allomancy is basically on board with conservation of momentum.

As far as pushing on a steel wall goes, it does rebound the force back on you in the real world. Newton's Third Law and all. It just isn't that much force and you usually lean into it or otherwise shift your balance.

Edited October 12, 2012 by Kurkistan

Senor Feesh · October 13, 2012

No, Allomancy is basically on board with conservation of momentum.

As far as pushing on a steel wall goes, it does rebound the force back on you in the real world. Newton's Third Law and all. It just isn't that much force and you usually lean into it or otherwise shift your balance.

Yeah, I was going to say the same thing. Next time you try pushing against a wall, do so without bracing yourself against anything (even better, jump and then push the wall). I guarantee if you're exerting any meaningful force, you'll end up farther from the wall than you started

As for the OPs question regarding this; yes, it does seem to break with the rules Kelsier gave Vin. However, keep in mind that all allomancers (and likely allomantic knowledge) by this point would have been on a similat footing due to the generational gap from the original 9 allomancers who ate the beads of Lerasium with Rashek. Consider also that Duralumin (which essentially 'supercharges' your other metals) allows Vin to push an entire cavalry charge flying when rescuing Breeze in WoA. This could be used as a basis for an argument that a severe enough imbalance in allomantic strength would give the advantage.

One other theory I can think of, which is a little simpler. An inquisitor would know roughly what to expect from a normal mistborn for this time period, so when getting into a pushing match with Elend would not be prepared for the mega-push of a Lerasium mistborn. Elend, knowning exactly how strong he is (and with pewter to enhance himself) braces himself before pushing on the coin. The inquisitor, not expecting such a strong push, simply isn't braced for it and goes flying. (Analogy - two brothers in a friendly shoving match, usually equally matched, when one decides to tip the scales with a sudden extra-hard shove - he's expecting it and digs his feet it, while his unfortunate brother goes arse over tit backwards). This second interpretation only hold weight if Elend and the inquisitor were on the ground during the pushing match (I can't remember if this is the case or not).

Personally I lean more towards interpretation A simply because Duralumin sets the precedent, even if it does cause a break with real-world physics.

Aethling · October 13, 2012

Chalk up some of the issues with the axis and geography to him being a writer, not a scientist. Do you want him writing his books or spending years doing research for something many of his readers will probably not notice or even care about? Throw in an orbital shift and a climatic event, and it doesn't require all that much of a suspension of belief to see the poles as habitable.

Even on Earth, true north and magnetic north do not align, and this can cause problems with flights and ships that do not have a gps.

king of nowhere · October 13, 2012

I'll give my ideas on some of those

1-2) i suppose scadrial has an axis that is much less tilted than our. that means that the artic circle is much smaller than it is in real heart, and the differences in the duration of the day are less marked.

3) I guess so, but most of the empire at that time was already depopulated due to famine, anarchy, wars, and rampaging koloss armies. there were only some survivors on the coast and in the caves.

4) the way i see it, the terris dominance is the north pole. luthadel was too south to be inhabitable, except for the ashmounts. so the final empire would have had the shape of a circle around the terris dominancce + one circle around the ashmounts.

also keep in mind that climate is much more unpredictable than just latitude and altitude. local winds and currents can make a huge difference. the island of sorland is well over the polar circle but has a winter average temperature below zero thanks to the gulf stream, while the city of yakutsk is more south than that but the winter temperature drops easily to -50 because of some siberian wind jet.

so the shape of the final empire would be determined by many climatic factors. maybe near the terris dominance there is some equivalent of the gulf stream that makes the land around too hot to live, even if the terris dominance itself is cool. notice also that the terris dominance is likely to be a plateau, like tibet, so it would be colder because of altitude.

5) no idea. maybe the mists already give the maximum power, so duraluminium makes no difference. i doubt it would be possible to run out of mist, since it's preservation's power and is way to vast to be tapped out that way.

6) when you push and are knocked back, not only your wheight is important, but also your posture. when you prepare to push (manually) against something you adopt a posture with yoru knees and body that lower your baricenter, making it more stable. also keeping the feet separated increases the area you are standing on (quite difficult for me to convey those concepts in a foreign tongue, but i'm doing my best), providing extra stabilization. planting the feet firmly on the ground reduces the chance they could slip. before the impact, you also move your body towards the thing you want to push, to build some momentum to back your push. Last time i played soccer i was thrown to the ground by a kid half my wheight, because i was never expecting them to try to push me and so i was keeping a posture good for speed but not for stability. the next time he tried it i was ready, and he practically bounced on me without moving me at all. That is how much posture makes a difference.

So I think elend just kept a more stable posture before pushing.

7-8-9-10) no idea.

FlashWrogan · October 13, 2012

I spent 30 or 45 minutes last night researching and writing a reply, only make one wrong click and lose it all. Here is my second attempt...

#1-4

Scadrial Geography

The Magnetic North Pole of Scadrial is located at the Well of Ascension and the other group of humans is indeed at the Magnetic South Pole. And, good point. I had an idea that Luthadel, and thus the Final Empire, are at a rather low latitude (30 degrees), but, after some research, this doesn't really work.

Perhaps Scadrial doesn't rotate around its magnetic axis? Other than the incredibly weird physics involved (due to magnetic interactions, probably not possible in our reality. Shards, they mess things up.), this would seem to fix all the problems. If the rotational axis is similar to the Earth's rotational axis, then the Final Empire can exist at a non-polar latitude.

Originally, it was probably similar to Earth's (there have been some papers recently that suggest that severe axial tilts, at either extreme, will prevent life), though I am not sure on the current tilt.

The planet was probably turned in a direction that it doesn't normally rotate at, with any of the ideas. Vin doesn't know much (anything) about astronomy and probably just moved the planet to whatever would save the people.

If true, then the other half of the ring is burned, as the ash from the ashmounts is the main reason that the Dominances aren't burning, while the location on the planet contributes less, imo (when the ash is removed, everyone burns in a few seconds, even Pewter burners.)

The magnetic pole is issentially irrelevant for this discussion, as it doesn't have much bearing on where the axial pole has to be, or anything relating seasons and day/night cycles. As far as Vin turning it, I'm pretty sure if she had turned the planet differently than it normally does, then that would have had more severe consequences than we see (the normal day/night cycle would have gone all wonky from then on, but we see from Elend's viewpoint that the sun rises somewhat predictably at the end). I also think it is reasonable to assume that her expanding mind would have been able to take in the current rotation of Scadrial. Your take on #4 seems logical, but I will get to that in a minute.

Chalk up some of the issues with the axis and geography to him being a writer, not a scientist. Do you want him writing his books or spending years doing research for something many of his readers will probably not notice or even care about? Throw in an orbital shift and a climatic event, and it doesn't require all that much of a suspension of belief to see the poles as habitable.

I don't buy this. Brandon has always seemed a very thorough and organized writer, and I can't see him at least creating a relatively complete picture of the geography and planetary movements of Scadrial in his head. I would think this would be important since in the next trilogy we will see the population from the other pole, and the third trilogy will have space technology.

1-2) i suppose scadrial has an axis that is much less tilted than our. that means that the artic circle is much smaller than it is in real heart, and the differences in the duration of the day are less marked.
3) I guess so, but most of the empire at that time was already depopulated due to famine, anarchy, wars, and rampaging koloss armies. there were only some survivors on the coast and in the caves.

4) the way i see it, the terris dominance is the north pole. luthadel was too south to be inhabitable, except for the ashmounts. so the final empire would have had the shape of a circle around the terris dominancce + one circle around the ashmounts.

I'm liking these ideas, and I am forming a more concrete theory here. I also found this post from 2008 on TWG by GoryCat that helped me cement my theory. It goes into axial tilts and eccentric orbits (which he uses to account for the seasons). I didn't understand all of the math concerning eccentric orbits, but I got enough to formulate this theory:

Scadrial Orbit Theory

The north axial pole of Scadrial is centered on the Terris mountains (#8 on this map) or somewhere above the northern dominance. Luthadel is at a very high latitude on the planet, something equivalent to the northmost part of Alaska. This would normally be within the arctic circle, however Scadrials axial tilt is very small (maybe 5 or 10 degrees as opposed to the 23 degrees on earth). This might mean incredibly mild seasons, except that Scadrial has an eccentric orbit (probably because Rashek wasn't able to change orbit correctly) around the sun. This means that the planet would sweep closer to the sun for one section of the orbit and sweep farther away from the sun for the opposite section of the orbit (GoryCat's post above has more details on that). This means that summer on Scadrial is significantly shorter than winter, but I don't see a problem with that. Someone in Luthadel would see the sun trace a path relatively close to the southern horizon each day (similar to what one would see just south of the arctic circle on Earth, except with less variation) and would have seasons that are relatively mild (with a short summer and long winter). If we look at the same latitude as Luthadel, but rotate 180 degrees in longitude, we would see a climate that is a bit cooler than the the Final Empire was right after Vin got rid of the ash (since we would still see some ash in the atmosphere farther away from the ashmounts, ash has a tendency to spread over the whole planet), but still uninhabitable. The equatorial region would be even hotter. What would this look like in comparison to Earth? The arctic and temporate region of Scadrial would descend only a little farther than the arctic circle of earth (The southern part of the empire would end around the same latitude of the south coast of Alaska). The uninhabitable equatorial region of Scadrial would be nearly equivalent to both the temporate and equatorial regions of Earth (the border again being near Alaska's south coast).

Whew! On to #5

Hmmm, I am not quite sure, but I don't think it would have had the effect you think it does. It certainly would not exhaust Preservation's power--that power is far vaster than someone's use of Allomancy, unimaginably so. Since Vin had infinite access to metals during that, I'm not sure duralumin would even do anything. After all, she blew up Kredik Shaw by herself. She wasn't hindered by an upper bound for flaring metals anymore, I don't think (but it has been a while since I've read that sequence), which is what duralumin does.
I think that, if anything, duralumin burning the mists would have made Vin become Preservation that much faster

I agree with Chaos here. I hadn't really made an assumption, but it seemed unrealistic to me that she could have burned up all the power of the mists at once.

#6

Idea: perhaps the coin is pushed closer to the Mistborn who is less powerful (1/3rd the total distance between the Allomancers, closer to the weaker one), as that would be the location where the forces would balance, assuming the distance factor in Allomantic forces is linear, as opposed to quadratic/exponential/etc.. Therefore, when the forces are resolved (meaning that after the object reaches an equilibrium, the force rebounds on the Allomancers), the stronger Allomancer is pushed back some distance and the weaker Allomancer is pushed back twice that distance because the equilibrium is closer to the weaker Allomancer, meaning he gets the majority of the force exerted by the two.

I can see this as being plausible, but am not yet convinced (it seems my scenario is equally plausible and I don't see one or the other having the upper hand). If two men, both 200 lbs with equal footing, one being athletic and muscular, the other being flabby, push palm to palm with one hand each, what happens? By your assumption, their hands would be pushed toward the weaker of the two first, then that difference in distance/leverage would cause the weaker one to be pushed farther. By my assumption the the two would be pushed back from each other before the difference of strength was able to have any effect on the position of the hands. The second of these scenarios seems more realistic to me, as I have played a game that mimics this scenario against significantly stronger people.

As for the OPs question regarding this; yes, it does seem to break with the rules Kelsier gave Vin. However, keep in mind that all allomancers (and likely allomantic knowledge) by this point would have been on a similat footing due to the generational gap from the original 9 allomancers who ate the beads of Lerasium with Rashek. Consider also that Duralumin (which essentially 'supercharges' your other metals) allows Vin to push an entire cavalry charge flying when rescuing Breeze in WoA. This could be used as a basis for an argument that a severe enough imbalance in allomantic strength would give the advantage.
One other theory I can think of, which is a little simpler. An inquisitor would know roughly what to expect from a normal mistborn for this time period, so when getting into a pushing match with Elend would not be prepared for the mega-push of a Lerasium mistborn. Elend, knowning exactly how strong he is (and with pewter to enhance himself) braces himself before pushing on the coin. The inquisitor, not expecting such a strong push, simply isn't braced for it and goes flying. (Analogy - two brothers in a friendly shoving match, usually equally matched, when one decides to tip the scales with a sudden extra-hard shove - he's expecting it and digs his feet it, while his unfortunate brother goes arse over tit backwards). This second interpretation only hold weight if Elend and the inquisitor were on the ground during the pushing match (I can't remember if this is the case or not).

The second of these scenarios seems more likely to me, and I can accept this as an adequate explanation for the scene. It wasn't that the inquisitor was pushed any harder than Elend, it was that he wasn't expecting the force of the push to be so much while Elend was. I don't remember the specifics of Vin's duralamin push against the cavalry, but it always seemed to me that Vin was thrown a huge distance whenever she duralamin pushed. The force in this situation seems to be distributed evenly as close as I can tell.

#7

Well, I think that simply speaking, Kelsier never fully took up Preservation. He is dead, so he can't take the power up.
Rather think about it this way: with Leras's death, the Shard Preservation needed to have some mind take up the power, until its new holder could take it. So Kelsier was lending himself for that task. He wasn't bound to the Shard like Leras or Vin was, and once Vin became Preservation, Kelsier's services were no longer required.

As for why Kelsier was the one to take up Preservation for a time, rather than some other spirit... I think Brandon just chalked it up to "Kelsier is a meddler," haha.

This makes sense to me. And while I wish I had a more specific answer, I'm sure such a question would get RAFO'd

#8

I think Kelsier was able to speak to Spook and Vin for separate reasons.
In Spook's case, Kelsier could communicate with him because Spook actually had a real faith in Kelsier. That helps the divine communication. For Vin, I believe Kelsier could only speak to Vin near the very end, right before Vin took up the power and after Marsh tore out the earring. I don't think is inherently mysterious: Vin is so close to the mists (and therefore Preservation) that it would have been much easier for Kelsier to communicate with the future holder of Preservation.

I hadn't thought of this before, but it makes sense to me.

#9

The other reason Ruin picked Vin was because Preservation had already chosen her, and by spiking her he thwarted his old enemy's plans. For a time.

This is the only thing that makes sense to me, unless we simply don't know yet and Brandon is leading us on until a later date. Could it be that Ruin wasn't aware that Preservation had already chosen Vin? In this scenario Ruin's choice could have been somewhat coincidental, but Preservation was able to eventually overcome this hitch. The other possibility is that Ruin was manipulated by Preservation to choose Vin, and so he was playing into Preservations master plan all along (I am reminded of the statement Vin made to Ruin that it wasn't Ruin's plan, but Preservation's all along. I don't have access to the book at the moment, so I can't quote it).

#10

Yes, it always began Snapping people when the Well was almost fully filled. I would assume this means that a thousand years before the Ascension, the mists Snapped then as well, but that era is well lost to history

I can accept that the filling of the WoA and the mists starting to snap always correlated, but that doesn't mean the well directly caused the snapping. We also know that the mists started staying during the day both times the well filled, but that was caused by Ruin trying to find his own hero to give him the power at the well. So the question remains, what actually caused it? Did Preservation have enough presence of mind to begin the snapping, but wasn't able to stop the deaths related? Had Preservation rigged the mists to start snapping whenever the well filled since he knew that Ruin would be most dangerous during those times? Did Ruin start the snapping in order to increase the menace of the "deepness" despite the fact he knew it would create more allomancers?

Another question that is relevant to this mist issue: What caused the mists to stop snapping after Rashek took the power? We can assume the second time around that Sazed just waved his hand to stop the snapping since he was altering the whole snapping process anyway (I think I read about that at some point in an interview). But Vin taking up and releasing the power wasn't enough to stop the snapping. It could just be because Rashek actually used the power and either that specific trigger, or an action he took while using the power stopped the snapping. I'm not sure if I am satisfied with that however, since it has implications for who started the mists snapping in the first place.

Sorry for the long post! Also, on a side note, is there a way to directly quote multiple people in one post (so that it has the link, their name, and the timestamp)? I was only able to do it for the first person I quoted.

**Chaos** · October 14, 2012

Sorry for the long post! Also, on a side note, is there a way to directly quote multiple people in one post (so that it has the link, their name, and the timestamp)? I was only able to do it for the first person I quoted.

Indeed there is! It's the Multiquote button, just to the right of Reply. You'll hit Multiquote on each post you want quoted, then hit "Add Reply" at the bottom.

I kind of feel you are overthinking the Snapping issue with Preservation. Preservation wanted the Snappings so that there would be atium Mistings, thus burning away Ruin's body. That, I feel, was the point of the whole thing. Preservation could not stop people from dying, but then, Ruin also enhanced it to make it seem more destructive. Because Preservation surely knew there would be some deaths, he set up the mists to Snap people only in the times when it may actually be necessary to have such atium Mistings; namely, around the time period where the Well refills, when it would be possible Ruin could be freed. That's my random, off the cuff theory.

Now, your question about how the mists stopped Snapping after the Ascension is far more interesting. I don't have an answer for that other than it is a very good question.

Aeshdan · October 14, 2012

Edit: There are spoilers here for HoA

I just finished reading through the MIstborn Trilogy for the first time since learning about the Cosmere, and other theories that are being thrown around in the forum and have found some things that took place on Scadrial that don't add up. These are questions I was unable to answer through research on the site. I apologize if some of these things have been hashed out before. I apologize in advance for the long post. I decided it would be better to put my questions in one topic rather than posting multiple topics. Once we've hashed these out, I'll post any unanswered qs to the Brandon question list thread.

Before each question I will write my assumptions that lead me to the problem that I discovered. If I'm incorrect about any of these it may be an easy solution to the problems I've encountered.

Scadrial Geography, Day/Night Cycles, and Axial Tilt

Assumptions: The final empire is centered, more or less, on the north pole. The map of the final empire emplies that the north pole is centered in the middle of the Terris Dominance, however the Northern Dominance points in a more easterly direction by the look of the map. The map isn't real clear on where north is or the shape of the pole. I have always pictured Luthadel being centered on the north pole (therefore a different orientation of the compass) and the other group of humans being centered on the south pole due to the equatorial regions being too hot. There is clearly an axial tilt of some sort since we see a regular cycle of seasons, so this means there is some sort of arctic circle. This creates a problem:

1. Why do we see normal day/night cycles in the final empire when most or all of it is in the arctic circle?

2. How severe is the axial tilt? (I remember hearing from Sanderson somewhere that the winters were not as severe, so that might mean a smaller tilt and a smaller arctic circle)

3. When vin turned the planet to turn it to night, wouldn't the night have only covered half of the empire?

Alternatively, it could be that the north pole is centered in the Terris Dominance, with a small arctic circle. This could present a more earth-normal setup for the the empire but this still presents a problem:

4. In this scenario the habitable region outside the Terris Dominance would look like a ring, being below the arctic circle and above the scorched equatorial region. The events of misborn then would have had to taken place on only half of the ring. What, then, is on the other half of that ring since it should be just as habitable?

Allomancy mechanics

Duralamin and the Mists

Assumptions: Duralamin always burns away whatever stores of a metal you are burning, expending all that power in a matter of moments.

5. What would have happened if vin had burned duralamin and some other metal (such as pewter or steel) while burning the mists?

Interaction between weight and Steelpush/Ironpull power

Assumptions: This scene has never made sense to me. This may be because of some physics illiteracy on my part, but I have always assumed that the weight of two allomancers is independent of their power to push or pull. Let me explain. Two mistborn, both 200lbs push on the same coin suspended directly between the two. Mistborn #1 has twice the push power as #2. The power is transmitted through the coin and would be equalized between the two mistborn, pushing them both the same distance. The increased power of mistborn #1 simply meant they both flew further.

6. Is weight independent of pulling or pushing power, making this scene inconsistent with physics? (If I am wrong about this can someone explain what I am missing?)

Preservation, Ruin, and the use of shards

Kelsier taking up Preservation

Assumptions: As far as we know of, Kelsier is the only person to take up a shard after death, and release it by some mechanic other than dying (My prime example is Vin, but both Leras and Ati didn't give up a shard till they died). So . . .:

7. How did Kelsier take up and release preservations power from beyond death?

Kelsier speaking to Spook and Vin

Assumptions: We see ruin speak in peoples minds only through a spike piercing them. When Vin's earing is ripped out by marsh, Ruin's voice is cut off. Preservation's ability to directly communicate seemed to be limited to the mist figure appearing and using body language. So then:

8. How did Kelsier speak in Spook and Vin's head while holding Preservation, when Preservation could never do that before? (I recognize this could have been because Leras' mind was reduced, however shouldn't there be some sort of medium for Pres to communicate similar to the spikes?)

Ruin Choosing Vin

9. What reasons for choosing vin did ruin not know? (I'm sure someone has hashed this out somewhere, but I couldn't find it)

Mist Snapping

Assumptions: The mist was a part of Preservation, and it was he who designed the snapping setup. It was because the mist had no direction that it caused deaths in the young and old. Ruin encouraged the mists, causing the mists during the day and the Deepness. So:

10. Why did the mists start snapping people only at two points in history? Was it related to the Well of Ascension being filled?

Thanks for humoring me on my first post!

1,2,3, 4. Scadrial's magnetic pole was decoupled from its geopgraphic pole when TLR moved the Well. It is now at Luthadel, which is probably around European lattitudes.

5. I have no idea.

6. I suspect it was that Elend could brace himself because he knew what to expect, while the Inquisitor got slammed with double or triple the expected force.

7-10. Someone else has given the same answer as I would here.

spacemonkey · October 14, 2012

Mist Snapping

Assumptions: The mist was a part of Preservation, and it was he who designed the snapping setup. It was because the mist had no direction that it caused deaths in the young and old. Ruin encouraged the mists, causing the mists during the day and the Deepness. So:

10. Why did the mists start snapping people only at two points in history? Was it related to the Well of Ascension being filled?

Thanks for humoring me on my first post!

From the annotations to HoA:

by way of trivia, the mists changed the very moment the full power of the Well returned to be drawn again.

dyring · October 14, 2012

Hero of Ages Chapter 3:
Elend flipped a coin into the air. A single, sparking bit of copper spun through the flakes of ash. The Inquisitor saw this, and smiled again, obviously anticipating Elend’s Push. It assumed that its weight would transfer through the coin, then hit Elend’s weight, since Elend would be Pushing as well. Two Allomancers of near-similar weight, shoving against each other. They would both be thrown back—the Inquisitor to attack Vin, Elend into a pile of koloss.

Except, the Inquisitor didn’t anticipate Elend’s Allomantic strength. How could it? Elend did stumble, but the Inquisitor was thrown away with a sudden, violent Push.

I saw it like this:

Consider a lorry crashing with a car.

Both driving 90 km/h, head on crash.

The car will not only hit a dead stop, but start going backwards at a high speed. (it will feel like a crash in 150-ish km/h)

The lorry will just slow to maybe 60-ish. It will feel like a crash in 30-ish km/h.

Same with Elend and the inquisitor. Elend´s status as a lerasium mistborn(the lorry) makes him hit the inquisitor(the car) as if he weighed several times more.

Thats my thought;)

FlashWrogan · October 14, 2012

Indeed there is! It's the Multiquote button, just to the right of Reply. You'll hit Multiquote on each post you want quoted, then hit "Add Reply" at the bottom.

Maybe it is because of the browser i am using (internet explorer on this computer), but Multiquote does the exact same thing as hitting reply does.

1,2,3, 4. Scadrial's magnetic pole was decoupled from its geopgraphic pole when TLR moved the Well. It is now at Luthadel, which is probably around European lattitudes.

We know this is not, or at least very likely not the case because of two reasons. The first is a quote from Brandon:

Brandon: A compass would work, but remember that the Final Empire is set at the north pole of Scadrial, but not necessarily at the magnetic north pole. These things are complicated, but just assume that it works the same way it would here on Earth.

This says to me that the final empire is set on the axial north pole. The other piece of information is a logical one. We know from Brandons statements (not going to look up the quote atm, but it is well accepted), that the final empire exists on one pole of the the planet, and that there is another group of people on the opposite pole. It has not been confirmed whether he was talking about the magnetic or axial poles, but think about it. What reason would the two populations be centered on the magnetic poles? The only thing i can think of is that maybe it was an arbitrary decision by Rashek. But then consider the logic of them being located on the axial poles. Rashek moves Scadrial too close to the sun to burn off the mists, and all of a sudden the world starts to burn. He panics, seeing everyone he is trying to save dying. So he moves the population of the planet to the coldest place there is, on the axial poles. But this isn't enough, there isn't enough room, and it still isn't cool enough. So he creates the ashmounts which send him into reactively altering the world to be able to survive the ashes.

by way of trivia, the mists changed the very moment the full power of the Well returned to be drawn again

Thanks spacemonkey for this reference. That helps clear it up.

Consider a lorry crashing with a car.
Both driving 90 km/h, head on crash.

The car will not only hit a dead stop, but start going backwards at a high speed. (it will feel like a crash in 150-ish km/h)

The lorry will just slow to maybe 60-ish. It will feel like a crash in 30-ish km/h.

Same with Elend and the inquisitor. Elend´s status as a lerasium mistborn(the lorry) makes him hit the inquisitor(the car) as if he weighed several times more.

The problem with this scenario is that it circumvents the quandry I have, which is the interaction of mass and power, or alternatively, the effect that two unequal powers (not mass) have on each other. Your scenario has an imbalance in the reaction because the truck weighs more (and also happens to have more power because of that weight). Because of the increased mass, it transmits more power (or force) and is not pushed back as far because of its increased mass.

I'm going to do an edit pretty soon here of my original post to provide answers, or theoretical answers to my questions, and possibly add follow up questions to certain topics. One question though, how do I do spoiler tags?

Edit: Nevermind, figured out how to do it.

Edited October 14, 2012 by FlashWrogan

**Chaos** · October 14, 2012

Maybe it is because of the browser i am using (internet explorer on this computer), but Multiquote does the exact same thing as hitting reply does.

Seems you are correct on that note, it doesn't work on IE9 on my computer either. Then again, every font looks slightly wrong on IE9, too, and it is really throwing me off. (I wonder if IE10 fixed this)

I believe the Hero of Ages Chapter 76 annotation about the tilt will clear everything up. I knew there was an annotation about that somewhere:

One of my big challenges in the geography of this world was figuring out how we could have a kingdom set at the pole of the world while at the same time maintaining a normal day/night cycle. My original plan was for the Well of Ascension to be located a distance to the north of Luthadel, up at the geographic north pole of the planet. When I was revising the second book, I realized that wouldn't work for various reasons. (More on this on the MISTBORN 2 Alternate Ending deleted scene page.) I changed things so that when the Lord Ruler held the power in the Well, he decoupled the geographic north pole and the magnetic north pole.
In our world, the magnetic north pole is located about eleven degrees of latitude south of the geographic north pole. On Scadrial, the two poles were originally in the same location. When the Lord Ruler moved the planet too close to its sun and realized he didn't have the control to place the planet in the proper orbit, he created the ashmounts to cool the atmosphere. He also wanted to keep access to the Well under his control, so he decided to build his capital city right above it. However, he realized that on a planet with a tilted axis, a city at the north pole would have seasonal daylight variation so extreme that at the height of summer the sun would never set and during the dead of winter the sun would never rise. He could remove the axis's tilt, but that would just make the sun perpetually skirt the horizon all year round.

What Rashek decided to do (and he had to make split-second decisions in the brief time he held the power) was to shift the crust of the whole planet so that the Well was at a latitude that would have more standard seasonal variation, and to re-create the Terris mountains in the new North (to maintain the rumors that the Well was located there). He worried that the new location of Luthadel would be too hot due to the latitude, but it turned out that moving the Well created an unexpected effect. The planet's magnetic pole followed the Well as he relocated it—and the ash from the ashmounts was slightly ferromagnetic. (Ferromagnetic volcanic ash has some precedent in our world.) So the interaction of the ash with the planet's magnetic field's new alignment meant that its protective cloak over the area of the Final Empire caused it to be cooler than the now unprotected geographic north pole.

One side effect of this is that all compasses point toward Luthadel. Since it's been that way for a thousand years, no one finds it odd—in fact, it's used as evidence of the Lord Ruler's divinity. It also makes it mathematically very easy to pinpoint one's exact location in the Final Empire using a combination of the compass reading and noon observations. Not that it's easy to get lost in the Final Empire in the first place—the geographical area of the planet's surface that the Final Empire covers is actually quite small.

Ultimately, when it comes down to sophisticated geography and astrophysics, I'm out of my element. If there are mistakes in my reasoning above, that is why I write fantasy and not hard sf.

And I still haven't said anything about what happened at the south pole.

dyring · October 14, 2012

Consider a lorry crashing with a car.

Both driving 90 km/h, head on crash.

The car will not only hit a dead stop, but start going backwards at a high speed. (it will feel like a crash in 150-ish km/h)

The lorry will just slow to maybe 60-ish. It will feel like a crash in 30-ish km/h.

Same with Elend and the inquisitor. Elend´s status as a lerasium mistborn(the lorry) makes him hit the inquisitor(the car) as if he weighed several times more.

The problem with this scenario is that it circumvents the quandry I have, which is the interaction of mass and power, or alternatively, the effect that two unequal powers (not mass) have on each other. Your scenario has an imbalance in the reaction because the truck weighs more (and also happens to have more power because of that weight). Because of the increased mass, it transmits more power (or force) and is not pushed back as far because of its increased mass.

Sorry, I did not read your original post well enough, or I would have answered differently

Mainly, my metaphor was not great, it would perhaps be better like this?:

Elend, being a stronger Allomancer pushes faster/harder. It might make decent sense to think of it as speed instead.

A car comes in 50 km/h.(Inquisitor)

Another, 90 km/h.(Elend)

Same weight on both cars.

When their pushes both hit the coin, Elends weight/push hits the coin in 90km/h, met by the inquisitors at 50km/h.

Its not quite right, as a continuing push means the cars are continuing to accelerate during the "accident", but the thought of weight hitting with a higher speed might make more sense anyway?

Another way of writing it would be that higher allomantic strength means Elend´s push throws his weight against the coin more often. Maybe say, 10 times/second, while the inquisitor only sends his weight against the coin 5 times/second.

Or a computer wich can do 1 trillion calculations every second. Another computer got the same amount of processors(weight), still making 1 trillion calculations, but a higher frequency(allomantic strength), making them twice every second.

Same thing as the two cars, but might make my point come through better.

(know full well people may not agree with me, but realized I didnt get my point through well enough so you could know what to agree or disagree with

FlashWrogan · October 14, 2012

I believe the Hero of Ages Chapter 76 annotation about the tilt will clear everything up. I knew there was an annotation about that somewhere:

One of my big challenges in the geography of this world was figuring out how we could have a kingdom set at the pole of the world while at the same time maintaining a normal day/night cycle. My original plan was for the Well of Ascension to be located a distance to the north of Luthadel, up at the geographic north pole of the planet. When I was revising the second book, I realized that wouldn't work for various reasons. (More on this on the MISTBORN 2 Alternate Ending deleted scene page.) I changed things so that when the Lord Ruler held the power in the Well, he decoupled the geographic north pole and the magnetic north pole.
In our world, the magnetic north pole is located about eleven degrees of latitude south of the geographic north pole. On Scadrial, the two poles were originally in the same location. When the Lord Ruler moved the planet too close to its sun and realized he didn't have the control to place the planet in the proper orbit, he created the ashmounts to cool the atmosphere. He also wanted to keep access to the Well under his control, so he decided to build his capital city right above it. However, he realized that on a planet with a tilted axis, a city at the north pole would have seasonal daylight variation so extreme that at the height of summer the sun would never set and during the dead of winter the sun would never rise. He could remove the axis's tilt, but that would just make the sun perpetually skirt the horizon all year round.

What Rashek decided to do (and he had to make split-second decisions in the brief time he held the power) was to shift the crust of the whole planet so that the Well was at a latitude that would have more standard seasonal variation, and to re-create the Terris mountains in the new North (to maintain the rumors that the Well was located there). He worried that the new location of Luthadel would be too hot due to the latitude, but it turned out that moving the Well created an unexpected effect. The planet's magnetic pole followed the Well as he relocated it—and the ash from the ashmounts was slightly ferromagnetic. (Ferromagnetic volcanic ash has some precedent in our world.) So the interaction of the ash with the planet's magnetic field's new alignment meant that its protective cloak over the area of the Final Empire caused it to be cooler than the now unprotected geographic north pole.

One side effect of this is that all compasses point toward Luthadel. Since it's been that way for a thousand years, no one finds it odd—in fact, it's used as evidence of the Lord Ruler's divinity. It also makes it mathematically very easy to pinpoint one's exact location in the Final Empire using a combination of the compass reading and noon observations. Not that it's easy to get lost in the Final Empire in the first place—the geographical area of the planet's surface that the Final Empire covers is actually quite small.

Ultimately, when it comes down to sophisticated geography and astrophysics, I'm out of my element. If there are mistakes in my reasoning above, that is why I write fantasy and not hard sf.

And I still haven't said anything about what happened at the south pole.

Well there goes my entire theory. I should have been a bit more thorough in my research before I posted. I'm going to just sum up things a bit, along with making a few assumptions from this, just to make sure I get it.

The orbit and axial tilt of Scadrial is virtually the same as Earth. The axial north pole is located in Terris and the magnetic north pole is located at the WoA in Luthadel, the second of these attracting a good portion of the ash and giving it extra cover from the sun which allows for the next point. Luthadel is located in what would be earths temporate region (around the same latitude as Europe). This latitude is much hotter on Scadrial, but the magnetic pole and the ash makes up for that. This gives Luthadel a normal day/night and seasonal cycle. The only real question remaining is whether the population at the south pole is located at the axial south pole for the decreased sunlight and therefore temperature, or at the magnetic south pole because enough ash attracted there to be habitable (and for that matter, does the south magnetic pole correspond directly with the WoA). But that question is better left until the second mistborn trilogy.

I'm going to hold of on that edit of the first post for a while...

Thor · October 15, 2012

No, Allomancy is basically on board with conservation of momentum.

As far as pushing on a steel wall goes, it does rebound the force back on you in the real world. Newton's Third Law and all. It just isn't that much force and you usually lean into it or otherwise shift your balance.

Oh, right. *facepalm* Guess I wasn't thinking about that correctly. My fault for not being in a mechanics class for five years or so.

As far as the planetary geography questions: my original idea was based off of the annotation that Chaos posted (I placed the Final Empire at a latitude near 30 degrees, at a decent altitude [2500 m or so] though that is probably too low now that I think about it. Your suggestion of Europe is much better.) but then I drew the wrong conclusion from some research on my new idea. (The rotational axis has no bearing on the magnetic pole's location is what I missed.) Oh well, learn/correct every day.

*snip*
As far as Vin turning it, I'm pretty sure if she had turned the planet differently than it normally does, then that would have had more severe consequences than we see (the normal day/night cycle would have gone all wonky from then on, but we see from Elend's viewpoint that the sun rises somewhat predictably at the end). I also think it is reasonable to assume that her expanding mind would have been able to take in the current rotation of Scadrial.

Probably, though just turning the planet at a speed necessary to hide the Final Empire from the Sun before everyone burned to death, no matter what direction, causes more problems than just a messed up day/night cycle (though, with Vin being a deity, I don't think it matters too much.)

Edited October 15, 2012 by Thor

Kiwi · October 15, 2012

9. What reasons for choosing vin did ruin not know? (I'm sure someone has hashed this out somewhere, but I couldn't find it)

This phrase always struck me as odd as well. How could he have chosen Vin for a reason he wasn't aware of? Shouldn't he have known everything about his own reasoning? That lead me to think he was referring to a reason of someone else. Someone else had a reason for Ruin choosing Vin.

I can't remember where I read it, but all the shards have the ability to look into the future. Maybe it was Hoid, idk... but someone explained it like a broken window. Each piece reflecting a different possibility, and for each possibility there are more bits of broken window with even more possibilities. I hope my memory is correct on that. And I also think it's mentioned that some shards are better at it than others.

Knowing that, I always assumed that statement meant that Preservation had seen this possible path being taken by Ruin, and therefor chose Vin as well. Creating the Terris Prophecies and all sorts of other things to trick Ruin into thinking he was taking "Preservation's Champion" out of the game by spiking her, and then BAM! It was actually Sazed! (Or at least that's how I interpreted it).

Preservation was playing the long game all along.

Edit: Actually I don't know if taking Vin away from Preservation was really Ruins reasoning. He chose Vin so she could kill the Lord Ruler and then tricked her into releasing the power at the well. But regardless, the rest of what I said still fits pretty well into it.

Edited October 15, 2012 by Kiwi

Senor Feesh · October 16, 2012

I can't remember where I read it, but all the shards have the ability to look into the future. Maybe it was Hoid, idk... but someone explained it like a broken window. Each piece reflecting a different possibility, and for each possibility there are more bits of broken window with even more possibilities. I hope my memory is correct on that. And I also think it's mentioned that some shards are better at it than others.

I believe you're referring to Way of Kings -

Dalinar's final vision with Honor.

Your interpretation (of Preservation being involved in the decision) is better than anything I have, but could Preservation actually have done so? Most of his consciousness was depleted by giving so much of himself to Ruin's prison.

Discuss!

Kiwi · October 16, 2012

I believe you're referring to Way of Kings -

Dalinar's final vision with Honor.

Your interpretation (of Preservation being involved in the decision) is better than anything I have, but could Preservation actually have done so? Most of his consciousness was depleted by giving so much of himself to Ruin's prison.

Discuss!

That's right, I knew I had read it somewhere.

The way I see it, when I say Preservation set this all up I mean he did so before he gave up most of his consciousness. I think Preservation never wanted Ruin to destroy all life on the planet, even when they made their agreement. So it would make sense that he would want to give the planet it's best chance at surviving Ruin, like a last effort kind of thing from Preservation and hoping for the best. It's mentioned several times that Ruin is crafty, well why can't Preservation be too?

Of course all of this is mainly assumptions on my part, but I like it.

FlashWrogan · October 17, 2012

That's right, I knew I had read it somewhere.

The way I see it, when I say Preservation set this all up I mean he did so before he gave up most of his consciousness. I think Preservation never wanted Ruin to destroy all life on the planet, even when they made their agreement. So it would make sense that he would want to give the planet it's best chance at surviving Ruin, like a last effort kind of thing from Preservation and hoping for the best. It's mentioned several times that Ruin is crafty, well why can't Preservation be too?

Of course all of this is mainly assumptions on my part, but I like it.

This is what I assumed when I finished HoA (maybe not on the first read through, but at least this time ). Preservation's strength was always to be able to think one step (or many) ahead of Ruin. He did the prophesies, the mists snapping, investing more of himself in humanity, and imprisoning Ruin. Ruin's strength was to corrupt Preservation's plans, but it seems he wasn't able to anticipate all of them. It is not too much of a stretch to assume that Preservation was able to pick Vin as a false HoA to mislead Ruin (after all, he did pick sazed out with the prophesies). Maybe he picked Rashek out too?

FlashWrogan · October 18, 2012

Wanted to give a little bump to let you guys know I revised my original post and added spoiler tags with my conclusions to each question, as well a few extra questions that came out of certain topic discussions. Discuss!

happyman · October 19, 2012

Kiwi: We get the statements about the future from the last chapter of Way of Kings. The speaker is Honor.

And I generally agree with your statement about the reason Ruin chose Vin. In various forms, the complex game between Ruin and Preservation comes up, and it always has to be emphasized that Preservation was playing the long game. With his eyes metaphorically blindfolded. And won. Preservation manipulated Ruin into choosing Vin so that Vin could be in position to kill them both when it was needed.

Scadrial Geography, Allomantic Mechanics, and some Preservation/Ruin questions

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