Kiwi

- I love the idea of Syl as a mother, especially if it has something to do with Shardplate - Pervy Spren, love it - I really think Ryshadiums are interesting, I want to know what Renarin is thinking about them - Renarin's Shardblade and Progression healing! Yay! (Never could imagine him being evil, or having "something wrong" with him) - Kind of random, and not sure if there are actual implications... but was Adolin's vision of himself oddly similar to how Allomantic Gold/Malatium works? - I know it's just because I don't identify with Dalinar's type of character as much as I did with Shallan's, but I'm not enjoying the flashbacks as much as I did in the previous two books (Just my bias). Hopefully I'll enjoy them more when the big stuff happens - The Stormfather knows way too much, and says way too little - Poor Dalinar, can't catch a break with Roshar's leaders. But maybe his new position will help later on? - I can totally dig Elhokar and Kaladin working together, might be really fun - *groans*... Taravangian... what are you up to now? (I don't trust this guy AT ALL)

I think these honorspren are unique in that it largely depends on how others view you. It's difficult for Dalinar to attract positive attention towards his honorable actions because of the Alethi way of thinking. The Alethi view fighting and vengeance to be honorable, rather than the way Dalinar portrays honor. On the other hand, you can see Kaladin attract an honorspren because of the way others felt about him. Before he was a slave, Syl was attracted to Kaladin, and she says it was from the loyalty of the men he commanded at the time.

Wondering if anyone else has made this connection, and if there may be some significance to it. and I realize this isn't some grand revelation, just something I picked up on while re reading. Stone seems to be pretty important in this world from what has been hinted at when reading Szeth's chapters. Perhaps this is a preview of another surge? I may be drawing from the parallel I see between Vin and her younger sister who died, and Kaladin and his younger brother, by assuming Tien may have had a surge, but it's how I interpret the passages I quoted above. Also, I kind of wonder if the rock really did make Kal feel better through the magic system. We've seen Kaladin absorb Stormlight from spheres without knowing it, so it may not be too much of a stretch to think that Tien may have done the same. Or it could have just been the nice gesture from his younger brother. Anywho, let me know what you guys think.

It may just be me, but when I look at this Surge chart, I see a lot of unnecessary lines. I believe the only ones the really matter are the line connecting Orders with Surges. As for skaa's theory, it's not completely bad. Seems a little convoluted, but maybe I'm just not understanding it correctly. The thing I wonder about, though, is if a spren can be associated with different orders, or better yet, if multiple spren can be associated with one order, what is the deciding factor in what abilities are received? Do the 2 spren have to be similar? Can they be vastly different? Idk... seems strange.

You make a good point. Through this discussion, I've started coming around to the idea that honorspren is just a general term to cover several types of spren like skaa points out in the following. I hadn't seen those questions before. It's good to know that all spren are either of Honor or Cultivation, or a mix of both. The possibilities, though, are just so varied I don't know where to go. I really think we're on to something, but I think we need some more WOB to connect a few more dots. I think I'm just gonna RAFO myself

This is kind of what I've been trying to figure out in my other thread. I haven't come to any conclusions yet, but there's a nice discussion going on about it.

Right, there has not been any desolations since the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact as far as I am aware. I'm okay with that, I was just saying that they existed together at one point. I have to disagree if I am to keep with my OP. Reading, or having the words read to you, in itself does nothing magical. BUT, it can change your perception of honor, it can change the way you act. Most lighteyes now think that Honor involves dueling, vengeance against the Parshendi, and generally things that I don't think should be viewed as honorable. Dalinar even says that he has changed the way he thinks and acts since reading the Way of Kings. Although, this doesn't completely go along with my OP, since most people view Dalinar as feeble minded and crazy. That's part of the reason why I think his visions may be linked with Honor's (the Shard) power. Not much to base it on, just a feeling. I'd be hard pressed to think of the Heralds "chilling" in Damnation

I actually like those ideas too. I don't know how much I agree with 2 though. I mean there had to be at least some people who other people thought were honorable enough to attract an Honorspren. I agree that the population has become much less honorable than in the past, but everyone is different and eventually someone is going to come along with the right set of ideals. The fact that Gavilar was doing something before he was assassinated, combined with him reading The Way of Kings and following the codes much more towards the end, suggests (to me at least) he wasn't only messing around with the power of the Parshendi Gods, but with other powers as well.

I may be getting confused too, so don't feel left out My timeline may be out of wack, but as I understand it the Heralds created the different Orders of the Knights Radiants. So at one point in time, the Heralds fought along side with the Radiants during the desolations. Do I have this correct? Once the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact, the Radiants still carried on for a time, until they abandoned their Shardplate and Shardblades. So what I'm trying to say is that before the Last Desolation, when the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact, the Radiants would be considered "in their prime". I've read a few speculations that the reason the Radiants abandoned their Plate and Blades could have been because of possible corruption in their ranks since the Heralds weren't coming back. It could have even been that they figured out that they really hadn't won like they were told. It could have been they learned that Honor had been splintered. Idk the correct answer. But anyways, back to my original question. I'm just wondering what exactly has caused the reemergence of the magic system, and why now? After the responses today I'm left with more questions, lol. I'm torn between it having something to do with the amount of time since the last desolation, and it having something to do with what Gavilar was doing (And now Dalinar might be continuing).

I'm actually wondering if Dalinar's visions have something to do with the power of Honor's Shard. It's mentioned that he sees things related to the Radiants in the past, and possibly of what is to come. If I understand it correctly, Dalinar's visions come directly from something Tanavast left behind, sort of like an echo. Could the splintered Shard be searching for someone to latch onto, to unite it back to it's original state? Could this be what Gavilar was doing that began the reemergence of the magic system? Are you saying that all Spren were trapped in Shinnovar? Or just the Spren from Shinnovar were trapped? I was under the impression that Spren are naturally occuring phenomena specific to Roshar, and have been around since forever.

That's true, I forgot about that. But the question remains the same, as you mentioned. It makes me wonder if there is a connection with the Parshendi bonding with Spren to rediscover their variety of forms. Okay so I think I have the timing right on the splintering then. When you say people weren't as honorable as Kaladin, at which point in time are you talking about? I'm referring to the time period when the Radiants would be considered "in their prime". Before any possible corruption started to set in, which I believe would have began after the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact. I was just about to hit "Post" when I saw Kurkistan's response. I guess I haven't got far enough in my re-read to remember that Gavilar was doing anything in particular? Or is this information from WOB?

So now that I've had a few days of this rolling around in my head, two questions present themselves to me. 1.) Was Syl originally an Honorspren, and Kaladin mistook her for a Windspren at the beginning? Or was she originally a Windspren, who transformed into an Honorspren? 2.) According to the Stormlight Archive Wiki, each Radiant was bonded with a Spren. Presumably, there were hundreds, if not thousands of Radiants. If bonding with Spren was such a common occurrence, why is it not now? The first question leads me to think that there is something about Windspren that correlates with the Windrunner's ideals. Through the entire book, Kaladin has this constant inner monologue while he's trying to figure out what kind of man he is. One who saves lives, or takes lives. To me, it seems he always comes back to wanting to protect others, which is thought to be the Second Ideal of the Windrunners. So his honorable actions come from wanting to protect others, and therefore attracts the type of Spren that is associated with the Order with the same ideals. Could other types of Spren also transform into Honorspren? Could there be certain types of Spren that fall inline with the abilities of the other Orders? Could it be that the type of Spren is dependent on the individual's personal ideals that fall in line with a specific Order? I don't think there is enough evidence yet to answer these yet, but that's where my thought process is going right now. The second question is kind of me trying to poke holes in my own theory. It may have something to do with the coming Desolation. It may be that Honor wasn't splintered at the time of the Radiants, so he could more easily direct the Honorspren to certain individuals (I hope I have the timing correct on his splintering). Again, I don't think there is enough evidence to come to a solid conclusion yet.

Hmm, this is a tough one. I had read your extension, and that's really where I began to question things. Not that all of that wouldn't be possible, just that my mind was going down a different path. This is all speculation of course. But perhaps Odium came to Roshar with the intentions of making it another Sel. But instead, was bound to this Oathpact to give Honor & Cultivation a chance to survive. Honorspren seem to be able to bind things, so maybe Honor himself forced this on him somehow. Perhaps in exchange for the 10 heralds sacrificing themselves after each Desolation, the rest of the people were given the tools in order to fight back. In the opening scene, Jezrien says, "Better that one man should suffer than ten." It could be a reference to the original intent of this Oathpact. Better that 10 men should suffer than all mankind. From there you might be able to delve into the importance of 10. 10 heartbeats to summon Shardblades for each Herald that is suffering for the times of peace. The time period between Desolations is strongly connected to how many Heralds are in Damnation, or so it has been hinted at. Further speculation on top of further speculation. But fun I know there's the "3 of 16 ruled..." death cry, so Idk if this totally fits. I'm a little fuzzy on the details of when all the Shards arrived at Roshar.

Oh by all means, throw cold water on my creative thinking, because that's all this is. Just because you're bound to something doesn't have to mean you're permanently bound. And I doubt there needs to be a distinction on the binding, once two things are bound they are bound together until they are separated. The Heralds were suppose to be bound to the Oathpact, and that obviously didn't last forever. But you do have a point about Sadeas... perhaps I could add Shardplate to the idea as well? I don't remember if it is bound like Shardblades though, but if it is, Sadeas does have Shardplate. I may be stretching to find things that fit my theory though... so take it with a grain of salt. I guess I was lumping Gravity and Pressure together, wasn't aware they were two different Surges. That's okay though, I never said this theory was perfect. As far as the Chasmfiends, I was just go off on tangents by that point. Exactly! It's been said that Odium has some rules he must follow, but there's only one that has been hinted at: A Champion. Well what of other rules? I'd imagine that the Oathpact was full of rules, and typically something like a pact won't favor one side more than the other. If the people of Honor/Cultivation didn't have the means to fight fairly, what kind of pact would that be? Obviously it's difficult to get a lot of the specific details of the Oathpact right now with our limited knowledge, but I think if Odium was bound to the Oathpact, he would have to give up something in return. So it's possible, at the very least, that he had to provide mankind with the means to fight back against his own creations, according to the Oathpact. Ultimately this is just a theory, please try and poke holes in it. These type of discussions are good Thanks for the comments.

Ok, so I thought about continuing in my thread here, since that's where all of my thinking began. But this is a separate theory and I think it deserves it's own. Thanks to skaa's post, and probably a few others, I think I may have a clue as to what lead to the Oathpact. What if the Oathpact came down to a philisophical difference between Honor/Cultivation and Odium? If given power, what would sentient beings do with it? Be honorable and save people? Or destroy? Because of this, I think I'm starting to understand the layout of Surgbinding chart. I believe that the Ten Surges may come Honor and Cultivation (5 each), and that each order comes from a combination of 1 Surge from Honor and 1 Surge from Cultivation. Furthermore, I think that all Shardblades come from Odium. I'll try and explain my thought process of how I came to this conclusion. First off, I don't agree with everything in skaa's post that I linked, but I do agree that Shardblades come from Odium. Anyone who has a Shardblade is bound to it, and it seems like anyone who speaks of the Thrill is bound to a Shardblade. It has been said that the Thrill basically makes men into more efficient killing machines. Shardblades are also very destructive weapons, along the lines of Odium. BUT... they don't force men to do the horrible things they do, mankind has merely been given a tool and it is up to them to decide how to use it. Next, in some of Dalinar's visions, I remember there being a scene where he saw a woman from the Knights Radiant heal someone. This sounds VERY cultivation-y (New word?). IIRC all the Radiants were all considered Surgebinders. I think the Radiant who healed may have been using some kind of fabrial, or atleast using infused gemstones to power whatever Healing Surge she possessed. So my interpretation of the Surges we've seen thus far is they are fueled by Honor (Gravity) and Cultivation (Healing), and a combination of the two lead to an Order (I think it'd be kinda cool to see Kaladin have the Healing Surge as his second one, since he's also a surgeon). I don't know that we've seen anyone use both Surges they have available to them, but I may be wrong on that. If I am correct, and I'm not saying I am, then it would support my other short theory on the importance of symmetry (Each order has 1 Surge from Honor, and 1 Surge from Cultivation). Also, like I explain in the following paragraph, each side essentially equal. This obviously leads to a very important question: What about Voidbinding? Well... I haven't gotten that far yet. I do believe, though, that they are given the same tools: A magic system fueled by Honor and Cultivation (though perverted, or maybe inversed) and Shardblades from Odium. Both sides are given the same tools, which will prevail? I also think Stone plays an important roll in both magic system, but I haven't quite figured that part out either. There are hints from the Shin, who believe walking on and carving Stone is blasphemy, and also think that using Stormlight as decoration is profane. It's also been hinted that Chasmfiends, which contain Gemhearts, are not fully developed. Perhaps they eventually grow into massive Stone creatures that can be controlled through binding? And since they are naturally occuring in world, perhaps that comes from Cultivation? We know that Gemhearts are used in Soulcasting, so it may not be too much of a stretch to imagine. But then again, maybe it is. The more I think on these things, the bigger headache I get. It seems like we've only seen the tip of the iceberg, so to speak, on Roshar. The scope of these Magic systems, and how they have influence on the world is just mind blowing *blasting sound and head explodes* /dead

Way awesome, I do love your theories (When I can get through the wall of text...) Exactly, Tanavast ultimately decided what actions are considered "honorable", and I believe that's what influences these "Forms" you spoke of. I wasn't trying to say that there is some subliminal thought implanted in the population's mind, just that certain actions were deemed honorable by Tanavast, which was passed along to the Heralds, then the Radiants, and finally the entire population. If each planet could be thought of as a living being with the help of these Shards, the end result is like a natural way to choose "Heroes". Is that completely true? Idk, but I think it's a neat idea that has at least a little ground to stand on. It's plausible at the very least. Remember though, I'm trying to present a case where your scenario of the man known for his cowardice wouldn't happen. Something like fear isn't as abstract as Honor. Sure, different people have different thresholds of what might fighten them, but the feeling of fear is universal. But Honor is much harder to pin point, and therefore needs a different type of spren. So Spren Group A (of which fearspren are included) are attracted to strong general concepts, and Spren Group B (of which Honorspren are included) are attracted to these abstract concepts, and therefore has a different way of being attracted. The only reason I say I wouldn't go there with the different Orders, is simply because I haven't spent as much time with this book as I have with the Mistborn series. I don't know that I know enough, or if there is enough information available, to get specific on which different types of Honor may be represented in each Order. It's really neat thought though, I'll have to keep reading and see if anything jumps out at me. Good question Josiah, but I think you and I are looking at this differently. Yes, lighteyes might be generally perceived has honorable, but thats different than a group of people perceiving one person as being honorable. For example, do you know anyone in your life that, for whatever reason, makes you want to be a better person simply through their actions? That's way different than thinking a certain percentage of the population (lighteyes in this case) are all honorable. It's too general, One Honorspren can't bond to an entire people, just to one other person. When that one person deeply affects the lives of those around him or her, there may be a point when those feelings, accumulated, attract this "other" type of Spren that has the ability to bond with that person.

I have read your theory, so it is definitely a contributing factor, but so are a lot of the threads a read from here. Come to think of it, it sounds incredibly similar to what you've wrote. But honestly I was just reading and it hit me, so I just started typing. When you say Tanavast had influence over the "Form" of honor, it reminds me of how children's stories (Moral stories) have influence over what we perceive as "right" and "wrong" behavior in society today. Why couldn't this be the same concept? It seems like it would just be Tanavast's opinion of what Honorable behavior looks like, since Tanavast himself was human once. He helped create life on Roshar, so it would make sense that he might instill his opinion of certain concepts into the people. I'm not really saying it's the deciding factor in bonding with an Honorspren, just that it's an inital attraction that is different from other types Spren. Who knows? There may be different types of Honorspren that are attracted to different "perceptions" of Honor, and that's what makes up the different orders. That's pure speculation of course, but I'm not trying to go there.

So I'm doing an actual re-read of The Way of Kings, since the last few times I've listened to it on audiobook. Gives me time to analyze sentences to see if there are things I missed in the audiobooks. Well there was something I caught, and I don't believe I've seen it mentioned before. This is in Ch. 11, Location 2834 of 18313 on my e-book. A scene with Kaladin and Syl at the Honor Chasm. "They would have died more quickly without you. You made it so they had a family in the army. I remember their gratitude. It's what drew me in the first place..." (Emphasis is mine) IIRC, it's been said there are different general types of spren. Honorspren, I believe, are different from flamespren, painspren, and others. I think that's generally accepted at this point. The regular type of spren, to me, are like a manifestations of a strong concept that "bleeds through" from the cognitive realm to the physical realm. But Honor is a bit of an abstract concept compared to fire, pain, or fear. From what I've seen, Honorspren attach to one person and draws on their physical pressence to enhance it's cognitive pressence in the world. But what initially attracts the Honorspren? It's obviously not when one person thinks everything they do is honorable, because then anyone who thinks they're honorable would attract an Honorspren. I believe this is a significant difference between Honorspren and the other regular types of spren. I believe they are drawn to a certain person when a large number of other individuals see that one person is acting honorably. Kaladin's charisma and honorable actions make those around him better people, and in turn they think of him as a prime example of what an "honorable" person should be like. It's almost like a pre-requisite. If other people don't see you as honorable, then it would be impossible to attract an Honorspren to yourself. As I'm typing this, it really reminds me of a sort of natural selection. Spren are probably a natural phenomena created by the Shards that inhabit that world. The world itself is filled with ideas, and spren are attracted to those ideas. So naturally, one person who everyone else considers as Honorable, and the best of men, would be rewarded with powers to help mankind. Let me know what you guys think. Feel free to poke holes in this, or tell me this idea is "so last friday".

"Rhythm" and "Cadence" is mentioned a lot as well. Shallan says she falls into a trance, a rhythm with a cadence, when drawing from her Memory. Also, when speaking of the Thrill, I believe it is described as falling into a rhythm. These are two things that have been theorized to be in connection with one of the Shard's magic systems. A lot of things in Music can be considered symmetrical. A phrase normally consists of a dividable (by 2) amount of measures. Generally, 8 measures, but grouped as 2 sets of 4 measures with a cadence at the end of each. I may be alone in this, and it may be a stretch, but I imagine Chords as being symmetrical with the correct set of notes (But if the wrong notes are played, it causes a dissonance, and becomes asymmetrical). It's also been hinted that song plays an important role with the Parshendi. It could be another connection.

I've recently been seeing the word "symmetry" a lot when I read other topics in the Stormlight Archive forums. It's the basis of Keteks and a lot of names, there's a symmetry to the difference between Surges and Voidbindings, and when speaking of the "champions" of Honor and Odium symmetry comes to mind (Equal on both sides). So I guess what I'm asking is, could symmetry play a part in the magic system, kind of like metal on Scadrial? Could writing Keteks and forming symmetrical names be a way to hide written words from the Shards? Or is symmetry too general a term?

It's hard to know as a strict fact, but it's not really a stretch. Any time a Noble decided to bed a Skaa, the woman was killed shortly after. Obviously there were exeptions (Vin), but probably not many. So it's not hard to imagine that the number of hybrids were very very low in the Skaa population. Even in the rare event when a Noble spares the Skaa woman's life, what's the likely hood that his Allomantic lineage is still strong? Allomantic abilities have degraded over the course of The Final Empire, so there's a good chance that the few hybrids being born in such a fashion would have inherited a weak Allomantic line (Noble Father) mixed with an even weaker Allomantic potential (Skaa Mother).

Compounding Bendalloy so you never have to eat or drink again, all for the purpose of never having to use to bathroom again.

That's right, I knew I had read it somewhere. The way I see it, when I say Preservation set this all up I mean he did so before he gave up most of his consciousness. I think Preservation never wanted Ruin to destroy all life on the planet, even when they made their agreement. So it would make sense that he would want to give the planet it's best chance at surviving Ruin, like a last effort kind of thing from Preservation and hoping for the best. It's mentioned several times that Ruin is crafty, well why can't Preservation be too? Of course all of this is mainly assumptions on my part, but I like it.

This phrase always struck me as odd as well. How could he have chosen Vin for a reason he wasn't aware of? Shouldn't he have known everything about his own reasoning? That lead me to think he was referring to a reason of someone else. Someone else had a reason for Ruin choosing Vin. I can't remember where I read it, but all the shards have the ability to look into the future. Maybe it was Hoid, idk... but someone explained it like a broken window. Each piece reflecting a different possibility, and for each possibility there are more bits of broken window with even more possibilities. I hope my memory is correct on that. And I also think it's mentioned that some shards are better at it than others. Knowing that, I always assumed that statement meant that Preservation had seen this possible path being taken by Ruin, and therefor chose Vin as well. Creating the Terris Prophecies and all sorts of other things to trick Ruin into thinking he was taking "Preservation's Champion" out of the game by spiking her, and then BAM! It was actually Sazed! (Or at least that's how I interpreted it). Preservation was playing the long game all along. Edit: Actually I don't know if taking Vin away from Preservation was really Ruins reasoning. He chose Vin so she could kill the Lord Ruler and then tricked her into releasing the power at the well. But regardless, the rest of what I said still fits pretty well into it.

Yeah it's really hard to compare apples to apples w/ magic systems obviously. The only other thing I could compare the metals to would be Breaths, but that doesn't really make much sense since the metals are destroyed while Breaths can be retrieved, and I believe that Breath is what powers Awakening, where as metals don't power Allomancy directly. Unless you bundle Breath, Command, AND visualization and compare it to the metals, but I think that gets too convoluted and still doesn't make much sense. I definitely agree that Awakening is much more open ended than Allomancy and AonDor. Vivenna was able to escape Vasher by just guessing Commands to untie the ropes, so it seems like as long as there's very few ways to interpret the Command, and the Awakener has a firm visualization, just about any Command could work. "Climb things, then grab things, then pull me up,” (Pg. 508 ebook) and “Upon call,” she Commanded, “become my fingers and grip that which I must.” (Pg. 530 ebook). Both commands are pretty complicated, but there's not many ways to interpret them, and when you add in a vivid visualization BAM it happens. It's definitely one of the most flexible magic systems that we know of so far. I also agree that Awakening is more of a closed/internal magic system compared to Allomancy and AonDor, but I don't think that should be the reasoning to dismiss the comparison between Form and Command/Visualization. When it comes down to it, your entire theory is finding the most basic building blocks of each magic system and finding common threads. Well I think there must be a "gateway" for every magic system as one of these basic building blocks. I don't, however, think where that power comes from will be one of those basics since we've already seen opposites w/ Awakening (Internal) and Allomancy/AonDor (External). Whoa! I just had an epiphany. In the Q&A someone asked if you could group the 16 shards into groups like Allomancy and BS says "Good question...RAFO". Soooo, maybe we will get to see other Internal magic systems eventually and compare them to Awakening. Could Hemalurgy be considered Internal? Since the person just gets the power of Allomancy, and doesn't have to ingest and burn the metals... hmmmm. Sorry, mind wandering around a bit Anywho, while I agree w/ what you say, I still want to believe that you can compare the Forms of Allomancy/AonDor to Awakening's Command/visualization. It's a little more complicated, but then again that complication leads to a wider range of uses.