Brandon Tweaking Words Of Radiance

[Edgedancer]

This was a great post. I have nothing to add to it. I agree with you on Kaladin here: it does not make sense he would suddenly have a crisis over killing a man responsible for the death of many in a direct combat situation when he is seen killing Parshendis or enemy soldiers simply for the fact they stood in between him and those he needed to protect. Agree, it did not make sense he would "accidentally" kill Szeth in the first version either, but the second version makes it seem as if he suddenly did not care what happened to falling Szeth. Either he protects him or he kills him, but just letting him fall to secure a Shardblade seems out-of-character.

Yeah. I'm afraid what stands between this scene and a truly satisfactory conclusion is the outline. Szeth needs to end up dead and in the hands of Nin and the Honorblade has to end up with team Kholin. Meaning Kaladin can't actually go through with the decision to spare Szeth and get him back to be properly dealt with. Meaning something has to happen and interfere with one of the characters judgements.

[maxal]

Yeah. I'm afraid what stands between this scene and a truly satisfactory conclusion is the outline. Szeth needs to end up dead and in the hands of Nin and the Honorblade has to end up with team Kholin. Meaning Kaladin can't actually go through with the decision to spare Szeth and get him back to be properly dealt with. Meaning something has to happen and interfere with one of the characters judgements.

 

Agree. I however preferred the original ending. It seemed more appropriate: Kaladin is fighting Szeth who had "killed Dalinar" and was about to slay Adolin. There is nothing, at that point in time, to indicate Szeth may be anything else than a loose half-crazy canon willing to kill whoever walk pass him. He had to be dealt with.

 

It was thus well within character for Kaladin to jump in and fight him. Had he not done so, Szeth killing blow would have landed on Adolin leaving him free to try at killing Dalinar, again. Kaladin would have failed at protecting the very people he gave his word he would protect.

 

As soon as the fight was on, it was clear there would be one victor and one loser. Having Kaladin kill him during a fair fight was a good outcome and still within his character. Capturing him alive and bringing forth toward justice would have also be within character, I think though Kaladin has never been seen to act this way. The plot however demanded Szeth died. In this case, killing him while fighting is a better outcome then simply letting him fall to his death just so he could catch a Shardblade (kaellok is right, Kaladin has no idea what a Honorblade is and has no reason to think this particular Blade may be different. He hates all Blades and all Shardbearers except perhaps Renarin.).

 

I understand Brandon did not want for Kaladin to kill Szeth, but I still think the first ending was a better one. Szeth isn't one who "needs protecting". Not at that point in time, there is no telling what his future status may be.

[Ari]

What i wanted to say is that: When Kal attacks the Szeth arm and the Honorblade drops. He actually don't know that he would lose his ability. He simply remove the danger that Szeth was (Because Szeth without blade can't do anything dangerous to Kal). Then Szeth begin his falling and Kal began to understand that "something happen" but before He can do anything, Syl begin to yell him about the Blade and its extreme importance. Kal trusted the Syl's words and catch the Blade. Meanwhile Szeth is gone.

 

PS: Kal may also thinks (Syl explained herself only after) that Szeth may be tricking him and he simply stopping to use the Stormlight to hide inside the Storm and then continue his attacks. Szeth is a great hand to hand combat afterall.

 

That makes more sense, and yeah, I agree with you that Kaladin didn't mean to kill him by severing his arm, and couldn't be expected to know that doing so would put him in danger. That's not the part of the new ending that bugs me, though.

 

The problem those of us who prefer the original ending tend to cite, is that in that ending, Kaladin doesn't make a decision that deliberately puts Szeth in danger. He simply fights to the best of his ability and is surprised when Szeth decides to allow himself to die. Based on the criteria Brandon brought up for his change, (it not feeling heroic that Kaladin "killed" Szeth) his decision to fetch the Honourblade in the new version is much LESS heroic than his accidental killing of Szeth in the original. Brandon might have taken away the killing blow, but he's actually made Kaladin directly decide to allow Szeth to die, which is, at least in my opinion, far less heroic.

 

If you're gonna edit the ending, it should really meet your objectives. The best way to have handled this would have simply been for Szeth's body to get obscured by the storm after he dropped the honourblade, but have the blade still in view. Then Kaladin is in no way responsible for Szeth's (very short) death.

[Edgedancer]

That makes more sense, and yeah, I agree with you that Kaladin didn't mean to kill him by severing his arm, and couldn't be expected to know that doing so would put him in danger. That's not the part of the new ending that bugs me, though.

 

The problem those of us who prefer the original ending tend to cite, is that in that ending, Kaladin doesn't make a decision that deliberately puts Szeth in danger. He simply fights to the best of his ability and is surprised when Szeth decides to allow himself to die. Based on the criteria Brandon brought up for his change, (it not feeling heroic that Kaladin "killed" Szeth) his decision to fetch the Honourblade in the new version is much LESS heroic than his accidental killing of Szeth in the original. Brandon might have taken away the killing blow, but he's actually made Kaladin directly decide to allow Szeth to die, which is, at least in my opinion, far less heroic.

 

If you're gonna edit the ending, it should really meet your objectives. The best way to have handled this would have simply been for Szeth's body to get obscured by the storm after he dropped the honourblade, but have the blade still in view. Then Kaladin is in no way responsible for Szeth's (very short) death.

To be fair, hitting his wrist didn't really put Szeth in risk. Szeth probably just decided to sever his bond after the suicide by cop attempt failed.

 

There's a problem with obscuring the view on Szeth though. Brandon's other (and maybe even main) objective was to create some kind of "we didn't see his body" effect with him to lessen the blow of all the characters coming back to life. To be entirely honest, I never understood the logic behind that part.

[The Ninja Yodeler]

To be fair, hitting his wrist didn't really put Szeth in risk. Szeth probably just decided to sever his bond after the suicide by cop attempt failed.

 

There's a problem with obscuring the view on Szeth though. Brandon's other (and maybe even main) objective was to create some kind of "we didn't see his body" effect with him to lessen the blow of all the characters coming back to life. To be entirely honest, I never understood the logic behind that part.

Well he did also say that in the later books, when its all tied up, it wont matter which ending you've read. Honestly, I want to see Szeth redeemed. And I don't know the problem with the magic system tht severing Szeths soul, and bringing him back with a regrowth fabrial would have caused. So Im gonna assume, since I've thoroughly enjoyed all of his earlier work, that Brandon knows what he is doing.

[kaellok]

Well he did also say that in the later books, when its all tied up, it wont matter which ending you've read. Honestly, I want to see Szeth redeemed. And I don't know the problem with the magic system tht severing Szeths soul, and bringing him back with a regrowth fabrial would have caused. So Im gonna assume, since I've thoroughly enjoyed all of his earlier work, that Brandon knows what he is doing.

I assume Brandon knows what he's doing (even though I don't want to see a Szeth redeemed, I just want him dead and gone; I also know I'm in the significant minority on this, and that honestly only affects my feelings of the end of WoR a little.)  A large portion of why I want Szeth gone is how invested I am with some of the characters on Roshar, and Szeth is directly responsible for so much harm and destruction that I wouldn't feel that single-handedly saving all of Roshar would actually be atonement for his crimes; he'd need to do something bigger. 

 

However, WoR convinced me that either I don't know Kaladin as well as I thought I did after WoK, or that Brandon is a worse author than I thought.  I much prefer to think the former  But there is still this tiny doubt that wasn't there before.  And when the 'fix' doesn't address any of the problems that I saw, but adds a new one, it's slightly harder to erase that doubt.  And really, that doubt comes down to, "Is the story that's being told the same story that I think I'm seeing/reading/experiencing?  Or is it something totally and completely different and disconnected with anything that I care about?"

 

Sanderson is still one of my favorite authors (top 3 easy).  Even if the next book is nothing except a literal dictionary, I will still buy it in hardcover and read it end to end.  And I trust that the story will go where it needs to go, that the story will be well-told, and that it's a story I'm interested in knowing.  But--there's still that stupid doubt.  I have been burned, terribly, before and under not dissimilar circumstances (Mass Effect 3, just for an example of something that is mostly amazing and wonderful and makes me of all people feel so strongly and misses the mark SO HARD at the end that it doesn't even realize that it was in the wrong storming galaxy as the target; and that's just a single work of fiction.  It's happened more than just the once, enough to realize that the problem probably lies at least in part with me.) 

 

So, when I'm standing in an area that has never had an earthquake before, and I feel a small tremor, I'm going to worry.  Not a lot.  Just a little.  But it's going to be a small thought that's there, in the back of my subconscious mind, because at other times I've stood in places where there had never been an earthquake.  And I felt a small tremor, and thought it to be nothing, only for the world to collapse in on itself and destroy the enjoyment of that area I'd once had.  (Again, back to Mass Effect--I want to play the games again.  But having made the journey before, and knowing the destination--it's just not worth it.)

 

That's really what I mean if I say that I'm worried or I have doubts.  It's not that I have doubts about Sanderson's skill in writing a story or bringing a world to life, or that he knows what he's doing.  My doubt is whether I'm interested in what he's actually working on, or what I think he's working on that is perhaps 95% the same as what he is, but that last 5% is so drastically different that it destroys the whole.  Like adding 2 tablespoons of salt instead of 2 teaspoons, and ruining your cookies.

 

My posts always end up being these huge treatises, sorry about that.  And I really didn't mean to respond to this thread again, but the idea of trusting the author, etc., was brought up that I'd address that--since it's both related and entirely different, and the two feed together to form my opinion of the end.  

 

tl;dr -- Sanderson is one of my favorite authors, but I've been horribly disappointed before and so little things cause me to worry needlessly.

[Jondesu]

The plot however demanded Szeth died. In this case, killing him while fighting is a better outcome then simply letting him fall to his death just so he could catch a Shardblade (kaellok is right, Kaladin has no idea what a Honorblade is and has no reason to think this particular Blade may be different. He hates all Blades and all Shardbearers except perhaps Renarin.).

Wait, I've seen this a few times, and I have to jump in.  Kaladin may not know what an Honorblade is, but Syl told him how Szeth isn't bonded to a spren, and that his powers are different, and then when she starts screaming about the blade, I'm confident in Kaladin's mental abilities enough to think that he must have realized that it wasn't just an ordinary Shardblade.  He's seen enough with Syl (and is using her as a Shardblade) to know when something like that must be important because she says so.

 

I still prefer the original ending for many of the other reasons that have been discussed, but I think that particular point isn't accurate.

 

jW

[maxal]

My doubt is whether I'm interested in what he's actually working on, or what I think he's working on that is perhaps 95% the same as what he is, but that last 5% is so drastically different that it destroys the whole. 

 

kaellok, I know exactly how you feel as I feel the same as you, though perhaps not for the same reasons. You aren't alone who feel strongly for a story, but at the same time is afraid it may pan out in such a different way you envision, you may loose all passion. You aren't the only one who fears for this dreaded two tablespoons of salt into your delicious cookies.

 

I also share your sentient about Szeth, that makes two of us.

 

 

Wait, I've seen this a few times, and I have to jump in.  Kaladin may not know what an Honorblade is, but Syl told him how Szeth isn't bonded to a spren, and that his powers are different, and then when she starts screaming about the blade, I'm confident in Kaladin's mental abilities enough to think that he must have realized that it wasn't just an ordinary Shardblade.  He's seen enough with Syl (and is using her as a Shardblade) to know when something like that must be important because she says so.

 

I still prefer the original ending for many of the other reasons that have been discussed, but I think that particular point isn't accurate.

 

jW

 

Yes, I agree Syl told him Szeth was not bonded to a spren and his powers were different. It seemed however dubious Kaladin would have made the mental gymnastic to link Syl's previous word to a falling Shardblade on the spur of a moment. Now it does not mean he didn't, but his thought process does not indicate he did.

 

The whole scene just feels incomplete.

[GoddessIMHO]

I hate Szeth. If he is redeemed I hope it's by dying to save someone more worthy. Clearly, making a change to an already released ending must be required by the final story arc. I must trust the story teller when he stops and says "excuse me, I made a small mistake, this is what really happened ".

I go for the gestalt of the story and the epic quest, not to catch the story teller in a mistake. This assumes the mistakes are few and not completely destroying my suspension of disbelief.

[Yata]

To be Honest I didn't never "hate" Szeth, He was a victim of his culture. And if he deserve "Hatred" their Masters deverve much more.

[Stormgate]

I was always more in awe and a little sorry for him.

[AerionBFII]

I don't think i can ever really adapt to the changes.

I bought the Audio and a Hardback.

No matter how many times i tell myself it's different i always remember what happens in the book as cannon, rather than reading changes on the website..   

[Ari]

To be fair, hitting his wrist didn't really put Szeth in risk. Szeth probably just decided to sever his bond after the suicide by cop attempt failed.

 

There's a problem with obscuring the view on Szeth though. Brandon's other (and maybe even main) objective was to create some kind of "we didn't see his body" effect with him to lessen the blow of all the characters coming back to life. To be entirely honest, I never understood the logic behind that part.

 

If you read carefully, I was agreeing with the point you make in your first sentence in my first paragraph. I had simply not realised that Yata was specifically talking about Szeth being in mortal danger because he dropped the Honourblade, rather than what I had read his post to mean, which was more generic mortal danger. After he clarified that, we were in agreement. Yata is writing English as a second language, so often he may need to clarify things before we're all on the same page about what's being discussed.

 

The new ending could absolutely have met that objective of "not seeing the body"- see my last paragraph about how the problems with the new ending go away if Kaladin simply loses sight of Szeth in the Highstorm before deciding to fetch the Honourblade.

[manavortex]

First of all, please excuse the brevity and the shitty quoting - I'm on my tablet.

>> What do we know about gold and red though?

Lightsong!

kaelloc, I really feel with you there. The mass effect ending was such an epic betrayal... Not even Denth could have pulled that off. (Yes. Been re-reading Warbreaker.)

After reading the entire thread (instead of sleeping... Again), I agree with people that someone is out of character here. However, I feel that it's not Kaladin. I see his "the assassin!" as an "Oh rust and ruin, that guy is falling into a Highstorm". I am convinced that, without Syl's intervention, he would have gone after him.

So my question is... Sylphrena, what the..? (i didn't do anything bad!)

Interested in your thoughts about this matter.

Edited December 29, 2015 by manavortex

[Yata]

 After he clarified that, we were in agreement. Yata is writing English as a second language, so often he may need to clarify things before we're all on the same page about what's being discussed.

I am very sorry about that 

[kaellok]

After reading the entire thread (instead of sleeping... Again), I agree with people that someone is out of character here. However, I feel that it's not Kaladin. I see his "the assassin!" as an "Oh rust and ruin, that guy is falling into a Highstorm". I am convinced that, without Syl's intervention, he would have gone after him.

So my question is... Sylphrena, what the..? (i didn't do anything bad!)

Interested in your thoughts about this matter.

But I like Syl, so she can't be the one that's wrong.  And I'm mad at Kaladin anyway, so clearly it's him.  So quit being ridiculous.  Syl is perfect.

 

I am very sorry about that 

There is zero reason for you to be sorry.  Language is a huge, complicated thing that can lead to fights, arguments, and confusion--when native speakers are using it.  Add translating to the mix?  

 

Keep speaking.  Keep talking.  If people don't understand, keep explaining until we do

Edited January 2, 2016 by kaellok

[Yata]

But I like Syl, so she can't be the one that's wrong.  And I'm mad at Kaladin anyway, so clearly it's him.  So quit being ridiculous.  Syl is perfect.

well Syl knows that "that Blade" was very dangerous/important/valuable (She seems to retain more of her memories after the third Oath) and the possibility of losting an Honorblade made her Hysterical (Like she says "A surgebinder, without any Spren's control").

[AerionBFII]

Yeah the blade would have been lost if he hadn't have chosen to chase it.

I love Szeth but i would have also gone for the blade.

They couldn't risk the Honorblade falling into Voidbringer hands...

[DreamEternal]

I'd put the information Szeth had above the blade. The person who gave him his orders is still out there.

[AerionBFII]

The Honorblade grants Surgbinding to anybody who wields it.

It has to have more special properties as well... A piece of Honor Shard.

 

To be fair it was a split second decision though haha

[Meg]

I am confused.
These days I re-read some chapters of WoR. In chapter 87 when Kaladin came back to the dais with the Oathgate the new version reads when Rock asks for the Honorblade:
 

"No," Kaladin said, "I took this from the assassin."
"He is dead then?" Teft asked.
"Near enough." 
"You defeated the ...."

 
The underlined parts are new, thus I emphasized them. 
 
So, as was to be expected from Kaladin, he told them the truth that he didn't kill Szeth. 
 
But when they came to Urithiru Kaladin answered to Dalinar's question "The assassin?" with "Dead." 

 

No tweaking here and hence my confusion: Would Kaladin tell the untruth to Dalinar or was this part missed in the tweaking? 

[DreamEternal]

Truth to be told, it made little sense to assume Szeth survived, considering he fell throught the Storm with no surgebinding. That is one of the most forced changes on the edit.

[Ari]

I am very sorry about that 

 

Don't be! I'm mentioning it so that people get why I changed my tune so quickly, it's much harder to write in a second language and you deserve people to give you a break if things aren't perfectly clear to them the first time.

 

well Syl knows that "that Blade" was very dangerous/important/valuable (She seems to retain more of her memories after the third Oath) and the possibility of losting an Honorblade made her Hysterical (Like she says "A surgebinder, without any Spren's control").

 

Exactly. Syl is perfectly in character knowing that the Honourblade can't be lost, not because saving Szeth isn't right, but she understands intuitively how wrong it is for anyone not bound by an oath to be using an honourblade, and gets that anyone else possessing it will be about as bad as Szeth having it. Kaladin doesn't know and has no reason to leave Szeth to die. He's the one out of character.

 

I am confused.

These days I re-read some chapters of WoR. In chapter 87 when Kaladin came back to the dais with the Oathgate the new version reads when Rock asks for the Honorblade:

 

 

The underlined parts are new, thus I emphasized them. 

 

So, as was to be expected from Kaladin, he told them the truth that he didn't kill Szeth. 

 

But when they came to Urithiru Kaladin answered to Dalinar's question "The assassin?" with "Dead." 

 

No tweaking here and hence my confusion: Would Kaladin tell the untruth to Dalinar or was this part missed in the tweaking? 

 

The difference here is that Rock is asking if Kaladin killed the assassin, which can't be answered as simply. Dalinar just wants to know if he's dealt with. I'm pretty sure Kaladin is assuming he's dead in both pieces of the new version. Other than the thematic and character issues that having Kaladin leave Szeth to die caused, the new edits are very good.

Edited January 3, 2016 by Ari

[Meg]

The difference here is that Rock is asking if Kaladin killed the assassin, which can't be answered as simply. Dalinar just wants to know if he's dealt with. I'm pretty sure Kaladin is assuming he's dead in both pieces of the new version. Other than the thematic and character issues that having Kaladin leave Szeth to die caused, the new edits are very good.

.

Thank you for your answer. I should have been more precisely. I'm well aware that those are two different questions as well as that not changing the second answer is not 'wrong'. It just feels inconsequential (incoherent, inconsistent) for me. Anyway, sorry for bothering.

[st0rm6]

Alright so i'm new here... Hi

 

glad to see that i'm not the only one necro-ing this post, haven't been following the blog much in the past year and somehow missed that WoR was getting edited.. after reading the edits I don't really find that much wrong with them, both make sense to me and I wanted to share some of my thoughts about the issues people are bringing up... or rather the issues that were brought up a year ago lol

 

so as far as Kalladin stabbing Szeth in the wrist and letting him die whilst diving after the Honorblade instead:

 

OK, so Kalladin made the split second decision to not kill Szeth and instead went for the disarm (haha because he killed his arm, how has nobody made this joke?) some are saying that this would be impossible to do or at least really hard. I think the stormlight in him as well as his radiant status definitely gives him enough control and speed that he'd be able to pull this off mid strike plus this kind of thing always happens in books and movies where the protagonist is swinging a powerful stroke in anger and decides to stab the ground instead of slaying the enemy in cold blood so lets just let that happen. 

 

Also of note here Brandon edited the book to say that Szeth let go of the bond to the weapon, this is my only question about any of his wording edits in the revision and it seems like this is only edited because someone else will have their sword hand sliced but not lose the bond in the future.

 

If I was Kalladin I would assume at this point that chopping his hand would make him drop the blade and maybe make it disappear, I would not assume however that this strike would remove all of the Assassin's powers and make him plummet to his death by highstorm. As he fell I would still be in shock over the whole battle and my head would be a little foggy.

 

Then the next part, 

-Syl screams at Kalladin to get the sword

-I would immediately shake out of whatever I was thinking and dive after the sword

-She finishes telling him that Szeth broke the bond and he is nothing without it

-at this point he might begin to understand that Szeth can't save himself with his powers because the sword was giving him the powers

 

Even if Kalladin realized at this point that Szeth was going to die in the storm or from falling I think he would listen to the forceful command in his head telling him to get the sword and just trust that Syl knows what's up. 

 

I think the other point of contention/debate during the battle is that Kalladin wounds Szeth several times in various places and then the book says that he (Szeth) slowed down and healed. 

 

So I envision the Soul (as far as BS books at least) as lying in the spiritual realm on top of the nervous system in the physical realm.. So If I was to look at someone's soul it would look like those medical images of all the big nerves in your body perhaps with the exception being that it would have a big ball overlaid right where the heart is located.  I think if you were to stab or cut any part of the soul it would have bad effects but It would regrow unless you severed the connection to a certain limb or severed the spine or if you stabbed the heart.  This is all just to say that I think stormlight (just stormlight, no spren/living shardblade) CAN heal the soul as long as a portion of it is not severed completely from the body. This kind of works the same way as if you got wounded somewhere in the real world, if your shoulder got stabbed you could heal from that but if your foot gets chopped off you're not growing that back

 

The last thing I wanted to discuss was the wording BS used when he was discussing the ramifications of this change talking about dead shardblades not being able to heal the soul while living ones can, he also specifically says that Szeth can't heal from a shardblade wound with his powers in an interview.

 

So how i'm interpreting all this is that shard blades are made from the body of a god right so that's Honor, honor blades are also presumably linked in some way to Honor. I think the difference between dead shard blades and dead honor blades is strictly in the amount of investiture within the blade.  I think both are "dead" so to speak as the living spren through the nahel bond formed the shard blades and the dead shard blades are just what the spren left behind when they died -a corpse- I think the honor blades are also now dead because Honor made them DIRECTLY from his own body and gave them to his heralds, so he was the "spren" that formed the nahel bond with the heralds.  I think Honor's contribution to the magic system was surgebinding and that his physical portion of the magic system on roshar was the honor blades ,and through the honor blades, surgebinding.  

I think to understand this we need to look back at Mistborn, Preservation's physical contribution to the magic system was the metal Lerasium ,and through this, allomancy.  Also looking at Mistborn, when Preservation died allomancy didn't die with it.  His contribution to the magic system stayed after his death as evidenced by the continuation of allomancy and the mists.

I think that part of Honor's influence on roshar was spren (I look at it as his version of the mists) and his influence on the magic system, surgebinding, continued after his death.  

 

So basically my conclusion is that dead shardblades are dead because the spren for those shardblades are also dead and Dead honor blades are dead because Honor is dead. BUT Honor's power still lives, and because of this, spren still live in the world. I think the spren that form the nahel bond are actually still harnessing some of the power of Honor and because of this are able to grant the power to heal wounds from shard blades.  I think this healing has a large part to do with the fact that the spren who are currently still alive and have formed the nahel bond KNOW that they are alive and think of themselves as spiritually whole from a cognitive standpoint whereas the spren who were part of the nahel bond and who are now dead, think of themselves as dead and as such know that they are not spiritually whole and cannot heal wounds to the soul.

 

 

WOW so that was a pretty epic first post if I do say so myself but i'm sure I got some stuff completely wrong and half of my points have probably already been posted or disproven somewhere else so let me know what you guys think