Brandon Tweaking Words Of Radiance

[GrainofaRiver]

 I've been checking periodically for the kindle update, and I've noticed that some of the changes have been made while others haven't. Does this mean they update it as they go, rather than one massive change? If so I find that rather interesting. Is there anyone with more experience with ebook updates who can elaborate?

[AerionBFII]

Soooooo do i need to spend more money on this Book again?

I've spent like £40 on this book alone with the Audio + Hardback and now every time i read it i feel like i have to wiki it so i don't read it wrong.. Don't get me wrong im not throwing a fit, Brandon produces more books than anybody else i've heard of and it's his book anyway  but i get a twitchy feeling when i have a faulty book..

[The Ninja Yodeler]

I honestly couldnt tell you which version I read originally. I was one of the first people to get the hardback from my library when it first came out. Maybe I did read the original ending, and just supplanted it with the tweaked ending after rereading. Either way, he succeeded in his intention (with me anyway) of it not making a difference whether or not Szeth died, or almost died.

[Oversleep]

About Szeth's death... Well, the way I see it it's what choice Kaladin makes:

• kill the Assassin
• spare the Assassin

If he chooses the first option, then he kills him as he did in the original version. It fits with the story, he does that in the heat of the fight, Szeth is a threat to everything he wants to protect; "you have to kill to protect" - Kaladin did kill to protect, so why shouldn't he kill the Assassin in White?
If he chooses to spare him, and then is like "I won't kill him, I will just disarm him by cutting his hand...- Oh! His Stormlight his gone, his Lashings don't work anymore, we're at clouds level and there are some highstorms colliding... Of course I could just Lash him up, we're close enough and then dive for this Blade my spren is yelling at me about, it's not like this Blade gonna walk away...Naaah, I'll let him fall, I doesn't care" then it doesn't feel like Kaladin at all. The moment he sees Szeth's Stormlight is gone and his Lashings broken, he knows that Szeth won't survive the fall, not to mention the highstorms. So not Lashing him means effectively killing him and he just decided against killing him.
It's like he wanted Szeth dead, but didn't want to be the one to deliver the blow. Letting him fall in the highstorm was just a way to keep his hands clean.
What's worse, then he suddenly isn't sure if Szeth survived or not, so maybe any second Szeth will regain consciousness and resummon the Blade? And then what he will tell those he sought to protect? "I let the Assasin escape even though I could have put an end to the threat he was"?

P.S.
Death by Shardblade is definitely less painful than death by Highstorm and of all people, Kaladin, you should know that.

[natc]

He wouldn't, actually. Just an arm's spiritual aspect going kaput is probably different from having your entire soul rended in two.

Edited December 8, 2015 by natc

[Landis963]

He wouldn't, actually. Just an arm's spiritual aspect going kaput is probably different from having your entire soul rended in two.

 

Kaladin's been strung up in a highstorm, remember?  With only Syl and a few spheres to save him?  

[natc]

That doesn't actually contradict my statement.

[AerionBFII]

I liked the old version were Kal swung and Szeth just dropped his guard and realized that he gave up.

It just seems better.

[Landis963]

That doesn't actually contradict my statement.

 

Kaladin's experienced both a Highstorm hit and a Shardblade injury, so he'd know which one is worse.  

[natc]

Then wy did you quote that post from me specifically if you're going to ignore what it says?

Having a normal sword lop off your arm is different enough from being run through the spine. We don't know if a shardblade to the spine actually hurts. Storms my memory is iffy on whether anything has ever been said about shardblade cuts and pain. You're getting your soul cleaved through important bits here.

[AerionBFII]

Storms my memory is iffy on whether anything has ever been said about shardblade cuts and pain. You're getting your soul cleaved through important bits here.

 

The silvery weapon sheared through the remnant of Kaladin’s spear, then through Kaladin’s right arm, just below the elbow. A shock of incredible pain washed through Kaladin, and he gasped, falling to his knees. Then . . . nothing. He couldn’t feel the arm. It turned grey and dull, lifeless, the palm opening, fingers spreading as half of his spear shaft dropped from his fingers and thumped to the ground.

 

Edited December 10, 2015 by WEZ313

[natc]

Okay, there we go.

That sounds like it could potentially be really excruciating.

[Oversleep]

Yeah, but at least quick. Being killed by highstorm...? Winds tearing of your skin, flying rocks breaking your bones etc etc. We don't know if somebody killed with Shardblade would even feel the pain, because maybe he would be dead before pain came.

[natc]

Wasn't Kaladin unconscious during part of the highstorm though?

I don't think we see most of the worst things happen to him while he was awake. Can't really tell if he felt it.

Either way we don't know much about shardblade death, so my intention at the start of this was to not jump to conclusions on which is worse.

[Oversleep]

Wasn't Kaladin unconscious during part of the highstorm though?

I don't think we see most of the worst things happen to him while he was awake. Can't really tell if he felt it.

Either way we don't know much about shardblade death, so my intention at the start of this was to not jump to conclusions on which is worse.

Yeah, but he felt what happened to him before fainting and he definitely felt everything when he woke up with serious injuries. He even lists all the wounds he received.

But guys, the part of "this death is worse than another" is just a post-scriptum, could we discuss more important issues which I pointed out in my previous post?

Here:

About Szeth's death... Well, the way I see it it's what choice Kaladin makes:

• kill the Assassin
• spare the Assassin

If he chooses the first option, then he kills him as he did in the original version. It fits with the story, he does that in the heat of the fight, Szeth is a threat to everything he wants to protect; "you have to kill to protect" - Kaladin did kill to protect, so why shouldn't he kill the Assassin in White?

If he chooses to spare him, and then is like "I won't kill him, I will just disarm him by cutting his hand...- Oh! His Stormlight his gone, his Lashings don't work anymore, we're at clouds level and there are some highstorms colliding... Of course I could just Lash him up, we're close enough and then dive for this Blade my spren is yelling at me about, it's not like this Blade gonna walk away...Naaah, I'll let him fall, I doesn't care" then it doesn't feel like Kaladin at all. The moment he sees Szeth's Stormlight is gone and his Lashings broken, he knows that Szeth won't survive the fall, not to mention the highstorms. So not Lashing him means effectively killing him and he just decided against killing him.

It's like he wanted Szeth dead, but didn't want to be the one to deliver the blow. Letting him fall in the highstorm was just a way to keep his hands clean.

What's worse, then he suddenly isn't sure if Szeth survived or not, so maybe any second Szeth will regain consciousness and resummon the Blade? And then what he will tell those he sought to protect? "I let the Assasin escape even though I could have put an end to the threat he was"?

P.S.

Death by Shardblade is definitely less painful than death by Highstorm and of all people, Kaladin, you should know that.

[Oversleep]

I found a passage which indicates one doesn't have to be in the eye of highstorm to recharge Stormlight.

 

 

Windspren formed a halo around Kaladin, zipping in and out, spiraling, spinning around his arms and legs. The proximity of the storm kept his Stormlight stoked, never letting it grow dim.

Szeth slowed, his wounds healing. He hung in front of the crashing stormwall, holding his sword before him. He took a breath, meeting Kaladin’s eyes.

It's just before Kaladin kills him/lets him die.

[Yata]

But Kal can't know that without the Blade Szeth loses his surgebinding ability.

Therefore He disarms him and when he begin to fall. Syl yells him to get the Blade and Kal trusts her.

Kal discovered the truth about the Honorblade only after.

Edited December 23, 2015 by Yata

[Radiant Returned]

I kinda liked the original scene better. I can definitely see how the revised scene fits better with Kaladin's character, but I like Kaladin the soldier. I don't want to see too many scenes where Kaladin refuses to kill because he absolutely doesn't have to. 

Edited December 22, 2015 by Radiant Returned

[The Ninja Yodeler]

Yeah, but he felt what happened to him before fainting and he definitely felt everything when he woke up with serious injuries. He even lists all the wounds he received.

But guys, the part of "this death is worse than another" is just a post-scriptum, could we discuss more important issues which I pointed out in my previous post?

Here:

About Szeth's death... Well, the way I see it it's what choice Kaladin makes:

• kill the Assassin
• spare the Assassin

If he chooses the first option, then he kills him as he did in the original version. It fits with the story, he does that in the heat of the fight, Szeth is a threat to everything he wants to protect; "you have to kill to protect" - Kaladin did kill to protect, so why shouldn't he kill the Assassin in White?

If he chooses to spare him, and then is like "I won't kill him, I will just disarm him by cutting his hand...- Oh! His Stormlight his gone, his Lashings don't work anymore, we're at clouds level and there are some highstorms colliding... Of course I could just Lash him up, we're close enough and then dive for this Blade my spren is yelling at me about, it's not like this Blade gonna walk away...Naaah, I'll let him fall, I doesn't care" then it doesn't feel like Kaladin at all. The moment he sees Szeth's Stormlight is gone and his Lashings broken, he knows that Szeth won't survive the fall, not to mention the highstorms. So not Lashing him means effectively killing him and he just decided against killing him.

It's like he wanted Szeth dead, but didn't want to be the one to deliver the blow. Letting him fall in the highstorm was just a way to keep his hands clean.

What's worse, then he suddenly isn't sure if Szeth survived or not, so maybe any second Szeth will regain consciousness and resummon the Blade? And then what he will tell those he sought to protect? "I let the Assasin escape even though I could have put an end to the threat he was"?

P.S.

Death by Shardblade is definitely less painful than death by Highstorm and of all people, Kaladin, you should know that.

By that reasoning (which is Kal shohld have killed him to keep to his vow to protect, or to be more of a soldier) you should also think that Kal should have killed Moash & Mraize, too. I mean they were trying to kill Elhokar, and he did vow to protect him, therfore speary speary death death for M&M. Kals reasoning was(most likely) Szeth was thousands of feet up (most likely) in the air. He had lost his stormlight, so he couldnt save himself. And if he lost sight of the FREAKING HONOURBLADE (!), it may have fallen into even worse hands. The Honourblade was the legitimate priority. Edited December 23, 2015 by The Ninja Yodeler

[Stormgate]

Hmmm... Who would be the worst person to get the Honorblade? Amaram?

[The Ninja Yodeler]

Hmmm... Who would be the worst person to get the Honorblade? Amaram?

Yea Amaram would be one. Ghostbloods another I think. Im sure there are plenty of other nefarious organizations who are going to want to get to Urithiru across the Shattered Plains (if the other oathgates really are locked), and someone could aquire it. I mean what if Szeth were to have surrendered on the ground? Should Kal still have killed him? Not directly asking you Storm, more towards everyone who thinks Kal should have killed Szeth outright.

EDIT: And honestly, I think one of the previous posters is correct. Kal is going to tear himself apart over not saving Szeth. Just because we dont see it in the preview chapter doesnt mean it wont happen!

Edited December 23, 2015 by The Ninja Yodeler

[Ari]

Soooooo do i need to spend more money on this Book again?

I've spent like £40 on this book alone with the Audio + Hardback and now every time i read it i feel like i have to wiki it so i don't read it wrong.. Don't get me wrong im not throwing a fit, Brandon produces more books than anybody else i've heard of and it's his book anyway  but i get a twitchy feeling when i have a faulty book..

 

Oathbringer will work with either ending, and you can read the differences online, so it's kinda up to your own headcanon whether you like Kaladin abandoning Szeth to fall to his death, or Kaladin accidentally assisting Szeth's suicide. (Kaladin never actually makes the choice in either narrative, so I'm kinda confused by Brandon's justification for the change- you have to be really odd about assigning blame to feel that Kaladin deliberately killed Szeth in the original ending) For electronic versions you may be able to update them, although I don't know if the audiobook will be re-recorded for that scene any time soon.

 

I have to disagree with Yata that Kaladin didn't know Szeth was in mortal danger in the new version. It's very clear that he does, (he just doesn't realise yet that it's due to dropping the honourblade) and that Syl persaudes him to save the sword rather than Szeth.

[kaellok]

I kinda liked the original scene better. I can definitely see how the revised scene fits better with Kaladin's character, but I like Kaladin the soldier. I don't want to see too many scenes where Kaladin refuses to kill because he absolutely doesn't have to. 

I disagree that the second scene fits with Kaladin's character better.  The second scene Kaladin abandons a man to fall to his death some thousands of feet below--a man that is probably the single most feared and hated in the entire world because of the evil he has spread.  Kaladin the protector would seek to ensure that this terrible, awful, years-long terror is over for good.  This could easily be in the form of realizing that Szeth had abandoned the crazy path he'd been on (Redemption) or by killing Szeth (Justice/Vengeance).  But just letting him fall and assuming that he dies is horrible.  It accomplishes literally nothing that Kaladin has cared about up until that point that I am able to see.  And he abandons it all simply because Syl, out of nowhere, tells him to do something and so he does it--which, honestly, is also out of character for Kaladin.  And never mind the fact that Kaladin is suddenly having a crisis of conscience in killing Szeth, when he's slaughtered hundreds, thousands of Parshendi and others that were capable of a small fraction of the terror that Szeth caused---it doesn't work for me, at all.  

 

I had issues with the original as I've posted before, but I cannot see how the new one 'fits' with Kaladin's character better.  Even a little bit.

 

 

By that reasoning (which is Kal shohld have killed him to keep to his vow to protect, or to be more of a soldier) you should also think that Kal should have killed Moash & Mraize, too. I mean they were trying to kill Elhokar, and he did vow to protect him, therfore speary speary death death for M&M. Kals reasoning was(most likely) Szeth was thousands of feet up (most likely) in the air. He had lost his stormlight, so he couldnt save himself. And if he lost sight of the FREAKING HONOURBLADE (!), it may have fallen into even worse hands. The Honourblade was the legitimate priority.

No, that line of thinking does not draw a straight line to thinking Kaladin should have killed everyone always in order to protect the people he's said he would.  It's possible for killing to cause more harm than good, after all; it's possible for killing to be dishonorable even if allowed; it's possible to see the good and chance for redemption in people that have not yet progressed to crimes that can never be forgiven.

 

For instance, Kaladin knows and understands Moash.  Kaladin knows that Moash isn't deserving death for making a bad choice do to years of anger.  And Kaladin is capable of fulfilling his Oath and what he views as right without killing Moash.  More importantly, Kaladin is actively choosing what he does and doesn't do when confronting them.  In the later scene with Szeth, Kaladin is passively accepting Szeth's choice AND Syl's command; there is no real thought, no contemplation, just going with it.  Hope that helps clear up how the two aren't contradictory at all.

 

Further, though, Kaladin has no idea at all of the importance of the Honorblade.  None.  There is zero reason to accept that Kaladin would have prioritized such a weapon over ensuring the fate of Szeth (whether to live and atone or die and be punished).  Think about the hate that Kaladin has for Shardblades; he gives them away multiple times, despises touching them, hates those that wield them (to varying degrees.)  All he knows is that a Shardblade is falling and Syl is yelling at him to get it, so he can assume it's a bit different--but again, I don't see it being in his character to put such a weapon over someone's life.  It makes a tiny bit of sense if Kaladin thought Szeth was already dead, but that's the only way.

 

There's not really any changing my mind, so no need to reply unless I've managed to get something wrong  Mostly just trying to express the other side so you can understand where we're coming from--seemingly, a disagreement on what actually is Kaladin's character and important to him, and what is not.  Or perhaps Kaladin was simply acting out of character in a moment of extreme stress.  Harmony knows that I do a good enough job pretending to be a better person than I actually am that when I'm stressed and lacking in sleep the monster that lurks within comes to the fore and shocks people).  So that's a possibility as well.

[Yata]

I have to disagree with Yata that Kaladin didn't know Szeth was in mortal danger in the new version. It's very clear that he does, (he just doesn't realise yet that it's due to dropping the honourblade) and that Syl persaudes him to save the sword rather than Szeth.

What i wanted to say is that: When Kal attacks Szeth's arm and the Honorblade drops. He actually don't know that he would lose his ability. He simply removes the danger that Szeth was (Because Szeth without blade can't do anything dangerous to Kal). Then Szeth begins his falling and Kal began to understand that "something happen" but before He can do anything, Syl begin to yell him about the Blade and its extreme importance. Kal trusted Syl's words and catchs the Blade. Meanwhile Szeth is gone.

 

PS: Kal may also thinks (Syl explained herself only after) that Szeth may be tricking him and he simply stopping to use the Stormlight to hide inside the Storm and then continue his attacks. Szeth is a great hand to hand combat afterall.

Edited December 24, 2015 by Yata

[maxal]

...

 

This was a great post. I have nothing to add to it. I agree with you on Kaladin here: it does not make sense he would suddenly have a crisis over killing a man responsible for the death of many in a direct combat situation when he is seen killing Parshendis or enemy soldiers simply for the fact they stood in between him and those he needed to protect. Agree, it did not make sense he would "accidentally" kill Szeth in the first version either, but the second version makes it seem as if he suddenly did not care what happened to falling Szeth. Either he protects him or he kills him, but just letting him fall to secure a Shardblade seems out-of-character.