Releasers

[maxal]

Am I the only one that thinks Szeth may turn out as an Releaser/Dustbringer? Granted most what we know about the orders is rather vague but as far as I see it the attributes connected to an order are not only the attributes they embody but also the parts of them were they received their scars, the part that would make it much easier for them if they just gave up on it. And really that's where I see Szeth's possible character growth going or at least where I see it if he wants the chance for redemption. The question wheter or not he should obey something like his oathstone or now Nin, his supposed god, and if that is really a sign of strenght like Nin seems to think or cowardice to not let go of what he's told and actually stand up for what he thinks is right, like Kaladin planted it in his head. Plus, the question if he should really be going after the stone shamans and the theorized "I will destroy evil" ideal of the Dustbringers would match with his new partner.

 

For a more meta reasoning, it'd be nice to see a curveball being thrown after he was taken under the "Skybreakers" wings.

 

Szeth has no free-will which is one of the many reasons I do not want to see him become a Radiant.

[FormlessFox]

In regards to the power of Division:

 

Words of Radiance Chapter 36 "A New Woman" excerpt:

 

And when they were spoken of by the common folk, the Releasers claimed to be misjudged cause of the dreadful nature of their power; and when they dealt with others, always were they firm in their claim that other epithets notably "Dustbringers," often heard in the common speech, were unacceptable substitutions, in particular for their similarity to the word "Voidbringers." They did also exercise anger in great prejudice regarding it, though to many who speak there was little difference between these two assemblies.

 

 

What we can infer from this quote is that the Releasers division power is so destructive that the common folk see it as similar to the destruction wrought by Voidbringers.  So much so that the common view is that there is "little difference between these two".

 

Perhaps it has to do with the cognitive, spiritual and physical realm connection being split.  Maybe it is the same affect that a shardblade has on a human body severing/burning its soul from its physical host thereby "releasing" the soul from the body through fire.

 

This power of division when seen by the common folk could have inspired the negative reputation because it was seen as demonic voidbringer type activity.  It is weird that in a time of respect for Radiants that the common folk would see one Order as close to "voidbringers" unless the powers they wielded were so destructively similar.  Hence why they were so upset by being associated with voidbringers because they are actually the good guys fighting fire with fire.

[maxal]

I have been given the Releasers some more thoughts today. Here are a few random thoughts.

 

We know the Lightweavers progress by saying truths as opposed to oaths. I believe most of us would agree it seems implausible they would be the only order with an abnormal progression. It also has, in the past, been speculated the Truthwatchers may be one of these orders who progress differently...

 

What if it were the Dustbringers? Let's be frank, Brandon has been scarce on details about this order. He bluntly told us they were "a special case". Special how? 

 

We know their first attribute is bravery which is essentially defined as being able to endure danger and pain without showing fear. I would thus believe a proto-Dustbringer would be someone who never lets his/her fears stop him/her, one who would never buckle in the face of danger no matter how scary it is.

 

So what if Dustbringer are progressing by facing fears as opposed to saying oaths? What if you have to prove your bravery in a similar way as Lightweavers have to prove their honesty? It would make for an interesting progression for such a character, constantly being forced to dive into the action, to swallow his/her own fears, to do what need to be done no matter how scary it is...

 

We must thus look for a character who is all about facing fears, who's greatest attribute is to never let his own emotions/feelings prevent him/her from acting.

 

I don't believe we have met such a character yet.

[DSC01]

You seem to have an odd concept of what it means to have free will, Maxal. What, to you, defines what it means to actually have agency? It seems like you're saying that anyone who is influenced in any strong way by their background does not have free will. But that actually describes every single person in the world. I don't really understand what your standard is for what makes someone influenced by their background to the extent that they would no longer have agency.

[Oversleep]

We know their first attribute is bravery which is essentially defined as being able to endure danger and pain without showing fear. I would thus believe a proto-Dustbringer would be someone who never lets his/her fears stop him/her, one who would never buckle in the face of danger no matter how scary it is.

 

So what if Dustbringer are progressing by facing fears as opposed to saying oaths? What if you have to prove your bravery in a similar way as Lightweavers have to prove their honesty? It would make for an interesting progression for such a character, constantly being forced to dive into the action, to swallow his/her own fears, to do what need to be done no matter how scary it is...

 

We must thus look for a character who is all about facing fears, who's greatest attribute is to never let his own emotions/feelings prevent him/her from acting.

 

I don't believe we have met such a character yet.

Or maybe Dustbringers have to realise difference between bravery (recklessness?) and courage. To know that it's not about not feeling fear, but overcoming it, embracing it. First you have to be able to act even when scared, then you have to accept fear as part of life.

"I will do what has to be done, no matter how much I fear it"

"I will accept the fear, but I will not be controlled by it"

[maxal]

You seem to have an odd concept of what it means to have free will, Maxal. What, to you, defines what it means to actually have agency? It seems like you're saying that anyone who is influenced in any strong way by their background does not have free will. But that actually describes every single person in the world. I don't really understand what your standard is for what makes someone influenced by their background to the extent that they would no longer have agency.

 

In the case of Szeth, I meant he decides to forsake his own judgement and his own morality in favor of obeying whoever carries his stone. He thus subscribe his own free-will as the instant he decides to go by this law, he gives it away. Szeth has no free-will as he does not take decisions for himself: he just obeys to whatever he is being told. 

 

As for agency, I meant it as a character who does allow events to shape his most defining characteristic. I only use the term to qualify proto-Radiant as I do agree most of us are by-product of our world. However, when it comes to Radiants, I feel they shouldn't compromise on their leading attribute. I used the term, in the past, to explain I did not want/think Jasnah's life choices were a consequences of a rape or abuse.

 

Szeth is a bizarre case as people will advocate that by obeying his stone he places law above all, but in murdering people he breaks all other laws....  For my part, it is his lack of free-will and his absence of desire to regain it which makes me not want to see him as a Radiant.

 

 

Or maybe Dustbringers have to realise difference between bravery (recklessness?) and courage. To know that it's not about not feeling fear, but overcoming it, embracing it. First you have to be able to act even when scared, then you have to accept fear as part of life.

"I will do what has to be done, no matter how much I fear it"

"I will accept the fear, but I will not be controlled by it"

 

It could be something along these lines, but these days I tend to believe this order is all about facing one's fears. Therefore, when Rysn takes the plunge, sure it was brave, but it was not tied to any fear nor was it a necessary action: it simply was a means to get to her end. In other words, I believe she was more resolute than brave. Hence I would place her more readily within the Willshapers.

[The Ninja Yodeler]

He talks to his Blade(which used to be an Edgedancer spren) and refuses to name it, almost as he knew its true nature subcounciously.

This makes me believe he will actually turn out to be an Edgedancer. Which I think would be awesome. Really, I just wanna see an Edgedancer in action.

[Stormgate]

Isn't Lift already an Edgedancer? Or am I thinking of something else?

[maxal]

Isn't Lift already an Edgedancer? Or am I thinking of something else?

 

Yes but she is a little girl who won't play a major role until many more years... Having a fully trained soldier/duelist with a charitable spirit as an Edgedancer would give us more "action" than Lift gliding through the hallways. 

 

Seeing the "deadly graceful fighters who run through the battlefield as a ribbon of wind" would be awesome, but it is unlikely to be seen with Lift in the near future.

[The Ninja Yodeler]

Szeth has no free-will as he does not take decisions for himself: he just obeys to whatever he is being told.

Thats not a lack of free will. For it to be a lack of free will there would need to be something literally forcing him to go against his will. There is no such factor. He is choosing to obey the rules of the Oathstone, based on his beliefs. All he is doing is trying to give up responsibility for his actions by surrendering to the rules of the Oathstone. Giving up responsibility is not losing free will.

[DreamEternal]

It could be something along these lines, but these days I tend to believe this order is all about facing one's fears. Therefore, when Rysn takes the plunge, sure it was brave, but it was not tied to any fear nor was it a necessary action: it simply was a means to get to her end. In other words, I believe she was more resolute than brave. Hence I would place her more readily within the Willshapers.

Dustbringers were both brave and obedient. They wouldn't jump of the isle just because they could, that would make them all suicidal.

I believe facing your fears is part of the Dustbringer path, but it is more like acomplishing their mission despite how afraid they are. In this case, Rysn would be an ideal candidate.

Although I would prefer if she didn't become a surgebinder. It would be nice to have an important character who has a big physical disability, like being unable to use one's legs

EDIT: Dubtbringers. I wonder if my phone wanted me to write Debt, Doubt or Duty.

Now I wonder what oaths a Debtbringer would swear, and why Doubtbringers are so terrifying to face. And if Bondsmiths and Dutybringers are the same order.

Edited December 6, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[AerionBFII]

Thats not a lack of free will. For it to be a lack of free will there would need to be something literally forcing him to go against his will. There is no such factor. He is choosing to obey the rules of the Oathstone, based on his beliefs. All he is doing is trying to give up responsibility for his actions by surrendering to the rules of the Oathstone. Giving up responsibility is not losing free will.

He is obeying the rules and laws of his people. He's not surrendering responsibility, he is fighting an internal struggle,

He once broke the laws of his people and this is his punishment, to obey the Oathstone, he is heavily conflicted a Truthless has no value in the eyes of his people he is scum. He is punished for a crime he is not actually guilty of.. He needs such an outlet and his views are skewed since he can't seem to do right, nobody is more sickened than he is by what he's done. 

 

I find it interesting because he flawlessly obeys the rules and laws of his people, what drives him mad is that the more time he spends in Roshar he starts to question the laws that are binding him, i don't think it is easy to just cast off everything you were raised to believe and laws you were raised obeying.

[DreamEternal]

True. To give an exemple of how Szeth may feel like, imagine you are isolated in the mountains after an accident you were the only survivor of, and the only way of surviving was eating the corpses of those who died. Some would do so and be happy that at least there was a way to survive, while others would prefer death.

Szeth is the second, only instead of dying himself, it is killing others, and instead of cannibalism, it is violating all his beliefs in a much, much deeper level.

Edit: real-life events similar to this may have happened, but any paralels are not intentional.

Edited December 6, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Eagle of the Forest Path]

Did you just compare the Skybreakers to a rugby team whose plane crashed in the Andes?

[maxal]

Did you just compare the Skybreakers to a rugby team whose plane crashed in the Andes?

 

He did, but the comparison does work. The rugby team had no other choices: Szeth has the choice. Drop the stone, ignore the order.

[DreamEternal]

Did you just compare the Skybreakers to a rugby team whose plane crashed in the Andes?

No. It was an accidental comparison.

Maxal: Szeth has the choice to kill or deny all he ever believed. The hypothetical survivor has the choice to die or betray a cultural taboo. I'd say Szeth has less of a choice.

EDIT:

Of course, not saying he shouldn't have simply gotten over it and abandoned his sword and stone, just that it wouldn't be as easy as some think. I think most people would do as Szeth did if they were raised in Shinovar, at least at first. It takes a exceptional kind of person, and not in a good way, to go as far as he did before giving up.

Also: as a determinist I sometimes have a hard time understanding people talking about who is to blame, and shifting blame away from him and etc. In my mind, it is always the universe's fault. Szeth is just a weak alloy, so to speak.

I think I said in other thread he shouldn't be a Radiant because he is the personification of "Weakness before strenght". But that only means he is pathetic, not evil or deserving of any non-simbolic punishment that does not have the primary goal of making people safe or forcing him to make some sort of service towards society.

My ideal ending for a Szeth redemption scenary would be a life of isolation dedicated to meditation and service.

Edited December 6, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[maxal]

Maxal: Szeth has the choice to kill or deny all he ever believed. The hypothetical survivor has the choice to die or betray a cultural taboo. I'd say Szeth has less of a choice.

 

Ah well see we are arriving at the end of my capacity of comprehension. I have no faith and I live in world which has forsook faith. I therefore am incapable of conceiving an individual could kill for the promise of an afterlife. Or, it would more right to say, I can understand, but I am incapable of forgiving such crimes as human life should always comes first, before all beliefs and to make beliefs pass first is utterly wrong, for me.

 

Hence, I cannot have any sympathy for Szeth just as, being a determinism, you have issues with me arguing about one's responsibilities.

 

I'd say it is where our respective point-of-vue differs. I strongly believe individuals are accountable for their actions, no matter the context. How they feel about those actions though may influence punishment, but not guilt. I also cannot forgive an individual on the basis of "his beliefs" as human life supersedes, in my personal value system, whatever belief anyone can have.

 

This being said, I have agreed an isolated life of service and meditation was a punishment I find acceptable for his crimes. It would satisfy my personal need to see justice run its course while allowing the character a chance to do some good. 

[Blightsong]

Maxal, I think it is unfair to judge Szeth by your culture's version of right and wrong when he spent his whole life having his cultures version of right and wrong beaten into his head. Szeth honestly believed that by ignoring the orders of his masters, he would be doing something worse than even mass murder. While I see that that isn't ok or true, based on my cultural past, I understand that he is exempt of atleast some of the blame for what he has done. You say he had the choice to simply not follow orders, but he was conditioned throught his entire life to believe that not following those orders was worse than anything he could possibly do. Why would he consciously choose to do something he whole-heartedly believed was worse than mass murder? He didn't even want do do what he was doing, he detested what he was doing to the point of wishing for his own death, as to end the suffering of other.

As for the punishment you seem to believe he deserves, I think he has gone through enough punishment. Insanity and extreme self loathing is beyond any kind of punishment anyone should ever receive. I think Szeth understanding and accepting what he has done as his own actions, rather than blaming others for them, and then redeeming himself would be a much better storyline than Szeth just going through more punishment, even if you dislike the character.

[maxal]

Maxal, I think it is unfair to judge Szeth by your culture's version of right and wrong when he spent his whole life having his cultures version of right and wrong beaten into his head. Szeth honestly believed that by ignoring the orders of his masters, he would be doing something worse than even mass murder. While I see that that isn't ok or true, based on my cultural past, I understand that he is exempt of atleast some of the blame for what he has done. You say he had the choice to simply not follow orders, but he was conditioned throught his entire life to believe that not following those orders was worse than anything he could possibly do. Why would he consciously choose to do something he whole-heartedly believed was worse than mass murder? He didn't even want do do what he was doing, he detested what he was doing to the point of wishing for his own death, as to end the suffering of other.

As for the punishment you seem to believe he deserves, I think he has gone through enough punishment. Insanity and extreme self loathing is beyond any kind of punishment anyone should ever receive. I think Szeth understanding and accepting what he has done as his own actions, rather than blaming others for them, and then redeeming himself would be a much better storyline than Szeth just going through more punishment, even if you dislike the character.

 

The problem I have is this line of thought excuses suicidal bombers, genocide and mass murders as those guilty aren't they all brainwashed by their own culture? 

 

I can't remove individuals from all responsibilities and put it all on their culture. Human life has to supersede all other consideration and the message needs to be sent in a drastic and undeniable way. Therefore, Szeth is accountable for his actions. His hand murdered these people and if he was unable to understand human life is more important than his set of beliefs, then he truly deserves his punishment.

 

And no feeling guilty is not enough. It is not nearly enough. Look at modern day law, would Szeth be absolved simply because his culture "forced" him to become a murderer? Would he be absolved because he feels guilty? Absolutely not. He'd go to jail for life or he'd be sentenced to death in the States where it is allowed as such laws are required to make people understand you can't just commit atrocities in the name of greater instance be it God or State.

 

What you refer to, have Szeth simply deal with his guilt would be an unsatisfying plot line for him, for me. It is the equivalent of getting a gentle tap on the hand.

 

He murdered people. I don't care how much convinced he feels he had to do it: he still did it. He knew he was doing it. He is not insane enough to not realize he was doing harm. He must thus be punished. Him redeeming himself without facing the law would be incredibly unsatisfying for me as a reader. 

[Oversleep]

...Guys, maybe start a topic about Szeth?

Going back to Releasers: If Abrasion lets you both increase and decrease friction, could Division let not only divide, but also merge? I'm thinking rapid diving and merging back object which could make some friction, while simultaneously increasing friction with Abrasion.

[Blightsong]

The problem I have is this line of thought excuses suicidal bombers, genocide and mass murders as those guilty aren't they all brainwashed by their own culture?

I can't remove individuals from all responsibilities and put it all on their culture. Human life has to supersede all other consideration and the message needs to be sent in a drastic and undeniable way. Therefore, Szeth is accountable for his actions. His hand murdered these people and if he was unable to understand human life is more important than his set of beliefs, then he truly deserves his punishment.

And no feeling guilty is not enough. It is not nearly enough. Look at modern day law, would Szeth be absolved simply because his culture "forced" him to become a murderer? Would he be absolved because he feels guilty? Absolutely not. He'd go to jail for life or he'd be sentenced to death in the States where it is allowed as such laws are required to make people understand you can't just commit atrocities in the name of greater instance be it God or State.

What you refer to, have Szeth simply deal with his guilt would be an unsatisfying plot line for him, for me. It is the equivalent of getting a gentle tap on the hand.

He murdered people. I don't care how much convinced he feels he had to do it: he still did it. He knew he was doing it. He is not insane enough to not realize he was doing harm. He must thus be punished. Him redeeming himself without facing the law would be incredibly unsatisfying for me as a reader.

I think this particular arguement is one of philosophy. I just don't think that punishment is an effective way of reform, in the real world or in this case. If a murderous radical is sentanced to death or imprisoned for life, they are not going to hurt others, but they are also not going to regret their past decisions. For me, that is a sad, but justified end to that persons life. It doesn't really make things better for anyone. If said radical was shown that what they did was wrong, felt remorse for their actions, and was rehabilitated into someone who could do good, I don't see why that is unsavory, in real life or in a story.

I do see how someone would still want justice, as you do, but do you see where my arguement comes from and why I disagree with you?

Edit: Sorry for derailing this topic, if anyone wishes to continue the discussion pm me.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Blightsong

[DreamEternal]

The problem I have is this line of thought excuses suicidal bombers, genocide and mass murders as those guilty aren't they all brainwashed by their own culture?

I just have to say that it does not "excuse" their actions as something that is not negative and has to be stoped and/or prevented. It is just that "evil", destructive actions are seem more like symptoms of a diacease, and the person who did the actions as either a patient or a plague victim that unfortunately must be isolated before it spreads, not a villain.

[Edgedancer]

...Guys, maybe start a topic about Szeth?

Going back to Releasers: If Abrasion lets you both increase and decrease friction, could Division let not only divide, but also merge? I'm thinking rapid diving and merging back object which could make some friction, while simultaneously increasing friction with Abrasion.

Well it is specifically the Surge of decay and destruction, so they might be able to stop things from decaying or stuff like that but I don't think they could create the actual opposite of repairing stuff, just as how the Surge of Gravity only lets you cancel out gravity (by trickery but still) and not create a force were different objects push each other away.

[FormlessFox]

Was thinking on the possible spren and since the second surge for Releasors is death/decay perhaps it is a rot spren.

 

I am not sure if it is confirmed if rotspren cause rot or are just attracted to it.  I am going to go with the attraction theory.  If that is the case it would be a nice match for someone who had a very destructive power.  Rotspren can detect corruption and foulness (evil) making it easier for the Releasor to identify people that deserve to be released from existence.  Maybe it is a corrupt king or a simple thief but it would be very cool if there was a vindictive spren guiding the bad boys of destruction.  

 

This may be similar to the functions of skybreaker's justicespren but the difference may be that justice is connected to the pride of the person enforcing the justice.  Skybreakers were known to have a near divine skill for separating the good from the evil but as we know that is a matter of who does the deciding.  Whereas the rotspren is just simply identifying a condition because its necessary of keeping order tying in with the Dustbringer second trait of being obedient.  The difference being a justicespren may say "Amaran has done wrong and deserves to be killed" as opposed to a rotspren's conclusion of "Amaran is bad for Roshar.  He has to go". That could be a big personality distinction between skybreakers and releasors.

 

I am kind of trying to steer Dustbringers to the character arc I want but will probably be so far off and glad Brandon came up with a better idea.  

[Stormgate]

You make the Dustbringers sound like the Diagram. Elhokar is bad for Roshar, Elhokar must die.

Cripes, is Kaladin going to have to protect the King from every other group in Roshar?