What if... No Kaladin?

[Beholder He/him]

So me and my full cosmere friend had a discussion about, 'What if Kaladin was never in SA?' or something to that effect. And it's pretty interesting. So, no Kaldin. Let's work our way from the end (this is how we talked about it). No Kaldin means Dalinar was never saved at the end of WoK so Sadeas likely took over the war camps and unified the Alethi. Most likely he crowned himself king and then would have gathered the armies and wiped out the Parshendi before Venli discovered stormform and stopped the Desolation from occurring. So, yeah. Odium's plans would have been foiled for untold years. However, as my friend said, no Kaldin also means that Amaram would have died, losing Sadeas one of his best, if not his best, military commander. (Other than himself). My friend said this would offset the power of Sadeas' army. I disagreed however and I'm interested as to what you all think. 

[Frustration]

Sadeas never would have wiped the Parshendi out, he was against Dalinar's expedition. He would have kept doing bridge runs until the Listeners summoned the Everstorm. So now the humans lose their best Radiants, don't get to Urithiru until Jasnah returns, they don't have a Bondsmith with a Connection to the Thrill, so Theylenah falls, assuming they can even get a Windrunner to open the gate.

Szeth is never defeated, and so he continues to kill monarchs which causes a greater amount of social unrest. He also never goes with Nale, so Lift doesn't have anyone to help her in Edgedanncer, which means Nale continues to kill Radiants around the world, which further weakens humans ability to fight back.

There's no one to save Elhokar, so he dies, assuming Sadeas lets him live that long, which likely fractures Alethkar as the various Highprinces fight each other.

There are no visions so no coalition is made.

Basically everything other than Azimir ends up in the control of either Taravangian or Odium. However Taravangian doesn't have any bargaining chips and thus looses the upcoming battle, and Odium wins.

[Namle84]

Not to mention, Chana still breaks on Braize, so the fused are no longer caged whatever happens to the Parshendi

[BinarySecond]

If there is no Kaladin is there also no Tien?

[Beholder He/him]

19 hours ago, Frustration said:

Sadeas never would have wiped the Parshendi out, he was against Dalinar's expedition. He would have kept doing bridge runs until the Listeners summoned the Everstorm. So now the humans lose their best Radiants, don't get to Urithiru until Jasnah returns, they don't have a Bondsmith with a Connection to the Thrill, so Theylenah falls, assuming they can even get a Windrunner to open the gate.

Szeth is never defeated, and so he continues to kill monarchs which causes a greater amount of social unrest. He also never goes with Nale, so Lift doesn't have anyone to help her in Edgedanncer, which means Nale continues to kill Radiants around the world, which further weakens humans ability to fight back.

There's no one to save Elhokar, so he dies, assuming Sadeas lets him live that long, which likely fractures Alethkar as the various Highprinces fight each other.

There are no visions so no coalition is made.

Basically everything other than Azimir ends up in the control of either Taravangian or Odium. However Taravangian doesn't have any bargaining chips and thus looses the upcoming battle, and Odium wins.

I agree with all your points except for the fact that Sadeas explicitly says 

“Yes,” Sadeas said. “But I’m confident I can beat the Parshendi on my own now. Everything we’ve done together, I can manage by splitting my army into two—one to race on ahead, a larger force to follow.

this is from around the end of WoK. Maybe he would have continued getting gemhearts, but maybe no. 

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Beholder said:

I agree with all your points except for the fact that Sadeas explicitly says 

“Yes,” Sadeas said. “But I’m confident I can beat the Parshendi on my own now. Everything we’ve done together, I can manage by splitting my army into two—one to race on ahead, a larger force to follow.

this is from around the end of WoK. Maybe he would have continued getting gemhearts, but maybe no. 

That was in reference to their strategy for getting gemhearts, Sadeas would race to the gemhearts with a small force, Dalinar would follow with a larger, but slower one.

[Jult]

I agree with most of what's been said. But I would think that Stormfather would send the visions to someone else if Dalinar dies. And Syl would probably bond someone. Just not Kaladin. I'm very curious to see who people think Stormfather and Syl's second choices would be.

[NameIess]

No one has yet brought up the possibility that Dalinar would not die. Eshonai wanted to speak with him to negotiate peace, so it is possible that if Kaladin had not intervened, she would’ve eventually stopped the battle to negotiate with Dalinar. Considering that the Alethi armies had massive casualties fighting through the Parshendi army, it’s possible he would’ve even come out of the day with more men alive and an agreement to negotiate with the Parshendi.

[The White Drake]

On 6/24/2026 at 12:49 PM, Frustration said:

That was in reference to their strategy for getting gemhearts, Sadeas would race to the gemhearts with a small force, Dalinar would follow with a larger, but slower one.

He does state he would have used Dalianar's death to unify and galvanize the Alethi as I recall.

5 hours ago, NameIess said:

No one has yet brought up the possibility that Dalinar would not die. Eshonai wanted to speak with him to negotiate peace, so it is possible that if Kaladin had not intervened, she would’ve eventually stopped the battle to negotiate with Dalinar. Considering that the Alethi armies had massive casualties fighting through the Parshendi army, it’s possible he would’ve even come out of the day with more men alive and an agreement to negotiate with the Parshendi.

Hard to stop a battle, particularly one so pitched. It might be so but I wouldn't bet on it.

On 6/24/2026 at 7:48 AM, Namle84 said:

Not to mention, Chana still breaks on Braize, so the fused are no longer caged whatever happens to the Parshendi

Thing is, without hosts (I doubt slaveforms will be ideal, it needs the Parsh to open themselves up to the Fused), and without an Everstorm (thus needing the unknown 'old' method), how do they get themselves bodies? It's not an insurmountable obstacle, but it gives them a hard starting period until they can pull the Everstorm over.

Edited 4 hours ago by The White Drake

[earthexile]

Here's a weird one: No Kaladin means Helaran probably lives. Amaram's forces lose, that day. Amaram doesn't gain the Shardblade that Kaladin won. Maybe he even dies.

Maybe Helaran succeeds on his mission, gets in touch with home, learns that his jerk father is dead, and swoops in to reclaim the Davar family name as a Ghostblood-aligned Shardbearer. Bam, we're Fourth Dahn aristocrats, House Davar is golden. Shallan's mission to capture the Soulcaster either never happens or gets called off, because now it's not the Only Way To Save My Family.

Shallan does not get involved with the Ghostbloods by happenstance, but by grooming. Her wonderful mighty hero brother is there instead, to offer her a whole new way to disengage from the world she knows. She probably learns the truth about what went down with her parents a lot sooner, although it's hard to imagine her being ready for it.

[Namle84]

1 hour ago, The White Drake said:

 

Thing is, without hosts (I doubt slaveforms will be ideal, it needs the Parsh to open themselves up to the Fused), and without an Everstorm (thus needing the unknown 'old' method), how do they get themselves bodies? It's not an insurmountable obstacle, but it gives them a hard starting period until they can pull the Everstorm over.

Yup!  My guess is what would happen is more voidspren could get through… and they would figure out a way to get the everstorm through eventually…