Namle84

Not to mention, Chana still breaks on Braize, so the fused are no longer caged whatever happens to the Parshendi

Respectfully, I am not finding this very persuasive. Explanation #1. Rayse was being dishonest or unreliable in RoW 112 Rayse is certainly capable of dishonesty, but there is no particular reason to believe he’s being dishonest here. He’s telling Dalinar what would happen if Dalinar broke the contract! Explanation #2: The restrictions on Odium’s ability to use his powers on most individuals are not on screen in WaT 113 (or anywhere else in WaT). This sure seems true to me. But my whole argument is that this is a problem with the writing. Because RoW 112 makes clear that the restrictions on Odium’s ability to use his power on most individuals comes from the same set of agreements that chain him to the Rosharan system -and these agreements are the ones depicted in WaT 113. Explanation #3: Actually, the restrictions we’re discussing sort of are on screen in WaT 113, by implication , or in the gaps somewhere. @Treamayne quotes this: But we learn in the very next sentence what exactly those equations do: These are limitations on the granting of power to individuals, not limitations on the use of powers against individuals. I do want to clarify one thing: at this point in the conversation, I don’t have a problem with the lore, just with the writing. It seems clear, as a matter of lore, that Honor did impose restrictions on what Odium could do to most people as part of the initial set of agreements among the shards of Roshar. The problem is that it should have been depicted in WaT 113, where we see those agreements made! The fact that WaT 113 says nothing about this aspect of the agreement is weird and confusing.

But see chapter 112 of Rhythm of War This states clearly that the thing preventing Odium from using his powers on most individuals is a restriction placed by Honor - and explicitly ties it to the scene where they agree to stay in the system. Honor’s restrictions are doing the work here, not general lack of connection or restrictions that apply to all Shards.

Thank you, I have tagged as spoiler now. @alder24 The quotes from RoW I-4 and chapter 112 are helpful. It seems that among the restrictions imposed on Odium was a limitation on harming most mortals. But now this feels like a problem with the writing of the scene in WaT where we see the initial shardic agreement. Because it does not read like it is skipping over any parts of the agreement. And there is nothing in there about harming mortals. And yes, I know that in the lead up to forming the contract, the shards do discuss the possibility of much broader restrictions on what they can do with mortals, and even possibly prohibiting contact outright. But when they get around to actually creating a contract, they focus on one specific limitation, which is the granting of powers to mortals.

Thank you all! I went and tried to put my Mistborn–spoiler post behind a spoiler tag, but I’m not sure how to do it. As for what I have read – everything in the Cosmere, up to and including Emberdark. And thank you for the helpful responses! I have been puzzling recently over whether various things in Stormlight, this topic among them, reflect inconsistencies, plot holes, or forgetfulness on my part, so this is really helpful!

I do like the idea of general limits on what shards can do to mortals. Mistborn spoiler

Hmm… this answers my question specific to Hoid, but seems like it just bumps the question up a level. @Frustration says there was, in the first round of agreement, something that protected most people but not Hoid. But what we see in Wind and Truth is limits in granting power to people, not on harming them

Ooh, nice. Can you point me to a citation? I don’t have the book on hand now, but looking at the Coppermind article on the contest of champions, it seems to suggest that the inability to harm most people is a prior limitation placed on Odium by Honor

After Wind and Truth, I think there is a problem regarding the various oaths that existed between Odium and Honor. We know that Odium was constrained by agreements with the other Rosharan Shards, and we saw those agreements made in the Tanavast flashbacks. The question is which agreement was responsible for one specific constraint: Odium’s inability to directly harm Hoid at the end of Rhythm of War. In the epilogue of Rhythm of War, after Taravangian takes up Odium, he confronts Hoid. He explicitly says: “I cannot harm you.” He then notices that Hoid is storing memories in Breaths and reasons: “I don’t believe this will cause you actual harm… Yes, it seems my predecessor’s agreements will allow me to—” this means that some agreement inherited from Rayse prevented Odium from directly harming Hoid, while still allowing him to destroy Breaths storing memories. Then, at the climax of Wind and Truth, Dalinar says: “I break all oaths and contracts that Honor has made with Odium—all of them.” A few lines later we are told: “The contract, including Honor’s binding of Odium to this world, was finished.” All of these agreements are now void. so after becoming Retribution, Taravangian simply vaporizes Hoid. No agreement protects him any longer. The Puzzle Wind and Truth shows us several major agreements on screen. Soon after Odium arrives on the planet, all three shards gather and agreed to the following To remain and share the Rosharan system. To limit the powers granted to followers to prevent another Ashyn. Much later, Honor and Odium agree to the following: Honor will deal with Ba-Ado-Mishram for Odium. Odium will agree to a contest of champions at an unspecified time in the future. The problem is that none of these agreements obviously explains why Odium could not directly harm Hoid. Yet the Rhythm of War epilogue means that some agreement did exactly that. Possible Explanations Option 1: There was another agreement we were never shown. Option 2: The restriction is an implication of an agreement we were shown, possibly in conjunction with other factors, such as the general rules that govern Shards. For example, if becoming a Shardic steward of Roshar carries obligations toward the inhabitants of the system, that might explain why Odium could not simply vaporize people at will. The difficulty here is Hoid. He is not Rosharan, and not even mortal. Why would he be included in such a protected class? Conclusion Some agreement clearly protected Hoid, and that agreement was voided when Dalinar renounced all oaths, enabling the vaporization of Hoid. What I find surprising is that Wind and Truth spends a great deal of time explaining the history of Shardic agreements on Roshar, yet never seems to identify the specific agreement responsible for this restriction. I fear that this is just a consequence of the book’s quick editing, and that the writing here could’ve been better. I suspect the answer is that there was just another agreement that wasn’t shown on page. But I hope there is a better explanation.

This only works if he took on his own share at the same time as the other 8. But that is not the case… the death rattle doesn’t say “the burdens of eight become mine, on top of the one that I already carry, such that I now carry the burdens of 9,” which would be an accurate description of Ishar’s situation

I think this would work if the language were “the burdens of 9 are mine” or “I carry the burdens of 9,” but “the burdens of 9 become mine” means that all 9 burdens came upon him at a particular moment… which does not work for Ishar

I’m fairly certain that both of these (#2 especially) apply in the physical realm only. In shadesmar, all true spren are human-sized and cannot change their form

I… don’t think this is correct. The Lord Ruler did not ascend and then withdraw, he ascended and *used the power* at the Well of Ascention. Kelsier’s cognitive shadow did ascend as preservation before passing the Shard to Vin, but that can’t be what Hoid was talking about since that incident worked out well. What Hoid is referring to is Vin taking the power at the Well of Ascension and then releasing it… a selfless act that nevertheless turned out very badly

A few thoughts: - I haven’t seen anyone connect the Night (apparently an ancient spren of Adonalsium like the Wind)to the Night of Sorrows, but I wonder if there is a connection here. - I wonder if the Stormfather’s shame is connected to the “betrayal of spren” in the listener songs, which seems to have something to do with how the ancient singers switched sides to Odium. And it’s never been clear who betrayed who…