Odium’s Oaths

[Namle84]

After Wind and Truth, I think there is a problem regarding the various oaths that existed between Odium and Honor.

We know that Odium was constrained by agreements with the other Rosharan Shards, and we saw those agreements made in the Tanavast flashbacks. The question is which agreement was responsible for one specific constraint: Odium’s inability to directly harm Hoid at the end of Rhythm of War.

In the epilogue of Rhythm of War, after Taravangian takes up Odium, he confronts Hoid.

He explicitly says:

“I cannot harm you.”

He then notices that Hoid is storing memories in Breaths and reasons:

“I don’t believe this will cause you actual harm… Yes, it seems my predecessor’s agreements will allow me to—”

this means that some agreement inherited from Rayse prevented Odium from directly harming Hoid, while still allowing him to destroy Breaths storing memories.

 

Then, at the climax of Wind and Truth, Dalinar says:

“I break all oaths and contracts that Honor has made with Odium—all of them.”

A few lines later we are told:

“The contract, including Honor’s binding of Odium to this world, was finished.”

All of these agreements are now void. so after becoming Retribution, Taravangian simply vaporizes Hoid. No agreement protects him any longer.

 

The Puzzle

Wind and Truth shows us several major agreements on screen.

 

Soon after Odium arrives on the planet, all three shards gather and agreed to the following

1. To remain and share the Rosharan system.
2. To limit the powers granted to followers to prevent another Ashyn.

Much later, Honor and Odium agree to the following:

1. Honor will deal with Ba-Ado-Mishram for Odium.
2. Odium will agree to a contest of champions at an unspecified time in the future.

The problem is that none of these agreements obviously explains why Odium could not directly harm Hoid.

Yet the Rhythm of War epilogue means that some agreement did exactly that.

Possible Explanations

Option 1: There was another agreement we were never shown.

Option 2: The restriction is an implication of an agreement we were shown, possibly in conjunction with other factors, such as the general rules that govern Shards.

For example, if becoming a Shardic steward of Roshar carries obligations toward the inhabitants of the system, that might explain why Odium could not simply vaporize people at will.

The difficulty here is Hoid. He is not Rosharan, and not even mortal. Why would he be included in such a protected class?

Conclusion

Some agreement clearly protected Hoid, and that agreement was voided when Dalinar renounced all oaths, enabling the vaporization of Hoid.

What I find surprising is that Wind and Truth spends a great deal of time explaining the history of Shardic agreements on Roshar, yet never seems to identify the specific agreement responsible for this restriction.

I fear that this is just a consequence of the book’s quick editing, and that the writing here could’ve been better. I suspect the answer is that there was just another agreement that wasn’t shown on page. But I hope there is a better explanation.

[Frustration]

That was the agreement made in RoW, Hoid tells Jasnah that one of the clauses explicitly protects him as an agent of Honor

[Namle84]

Ooh, nice.  Can you point me to a citation? I don’t have the book on hand now, but looking at the Coppermind article on the contest of champions, it seems to suggest that the inability to harm most people is a prior limitation placed on Odium by Honor

Edited 23 hours ago by Namle84

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Namle84 said:

Ooh, nice.  Can you point me to a citation? I don’t have the book on hand now, but looking at the Coppermind article on the contest of champions, it seems to suggest that the inability to harm most people is a prior limitation placed on Odium by Honor

Don't trust anything in the coppermind you can't confirm yourself, Ruin has corrupted quite deeply.

Shards can't directly harm most people just as a default. During the first round of agreements with Odium, Honor and Odium both made an agreement that limited how much they could interact with mortals.

Hoid however wasn't specifically protected and had to hide himself until the agreement with Odium in RoW.

I unfortunately am also without my books so I can't give you a quote

[Jult]

  

2 hours ago, Namle84 said:

I don’t have the book on hand now

24 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I unfortunately am also without my books so I can't give you a quote

I do and I can!

Quote

"You've told me he would destroy you if he found you."

"We'll add a line to the contract," Wit said, "naming me as a contractual liaison for Honor - whom Dalinar represents. This will protect me from Odium's direct attacks for the life of the contract. He will have to abide by those terms, as they are part of the promise Rayse made by taking up the Shard of Odium. To fail that promise would give others an opening against him, and said failures have killed gods before. Odium knows it."

Note: Jasnah is the first speaker. -RoW Chapter 99

I will say the bit I highlighted sounds as if there's more to it than the contract alone. But Frustration is right. It's largely the contract protecting Hoid.

[Namle84]

Hmm… this answers my question specific to Hoid, but seems like it just bumps the question up a level.

@Frustration says there was, in the first round of agreement, something that protected most people but not Hoid. But what we see in Wind and Truth is limits in granting power to people, not on harming them

[Jult]

47 minutes ago, Namle84 said:

But what we see in Wind and Truth is limits in granting power to people, not on harming them

We aren't shown the agreement that Kor drew up in its entirety, but I don't think it only limited how power could be granted. It was described as restricting all interactions with the mortals.

Quote

"HMMM..." RAYSE SAID, STROLLING THROUGH THE SNOW. "NO, WE DO NOT WANT ANOTHER... SITUATION LIKE ASHYN. BUT WOULD YOU HAVE US CUT OFF ALL CONTACT WITH THE MORTALS? THEY NEED GODS, TANNER. AND I'VE NEVER MET A DRAGON WHO COULD RESIST BEING WORSHIPPED."

"WE CAN INTERACT," KOR SAID, "IF WE HAVE LIMITS."

"WHAT LIMITS DO YOU PROPOSE?" RAYSE ASKED.

The whole point of the agreement was to limit the damage they did to Roshar. I'd be surprised if it didn't include some rules about just directly smiting Rosharans.

 

There are also some lines here and there that might imply the original agreement between the participants in the Shattering involved some stipulations around attacking mortals. Also, even if it wasn't part of the agreement, abusing your power is probably a good way to get all of the other Vessels mad at you. 

[NameIess]

Just now, Jult said:

We aren't shown the agreement that Kor drew up in its entirety, but I don't think it only limited how power could be granted. It was described as restricting all interactions with the mortals.

The whole point of the agreement was to limit the damage they did to Roshar. I'd be surprised if it didn't include some rules about just directly smiting Rosharans.

 

There are also some lines here and there that might imply the original agreement between the participants in the Shattering involved some stipulations around attacking mortals. Also, even if it wasn't part of the agreement, abusing your power is probably a good way to get all of the other Vessels mad at you. 

I agree. Making limits on the powers you can grant mortals is a moot point if you can just smite anyone opposing you. Although Honor could have protected his followers from the smiting, that would’ve les to direct conflict again, which they were trying to avoid.

[Namle84]

I do like the idea of general limits on what shards can do to mortals. It’s not like Ruin is going around smiting people either, even though it seems like the intent would want to

Edited 19 hours ago by Namle84

[Jult]

16 hours ago, Namle84 said:

I do like the idea of general limits on what shards can do to mortals. It’s not like Ruin is going around smiting people either, even though it seems like the intent would want to

Yeah. I hesitated on bringing him up since this is the Stormlight board. But since he's already been mentioned... (Big Mistborn Era 1 Spoilers):

Spoiler

A general rule being set post-Shattering by the 16 Vessels fits pretty well with Ruin and Preservation's story. Ruin helped create Scadrial specifically because Leras said he would let Ruin destroy it some day. His participation in that agreement seems a bit odd if he could have just flown off and destroyed any of the already existing worlds of the Cosmere.

BUT, if he was forbidden from harming any "Adonalsium brand" humans, working with Preservation to create Scadrians maybe gave him a bit of a loophole - lives he could destroy that weren't part of the original deal with the other Vessels.

In the past, I've always considered this pact with Preservation to be more of an 'Ati decision' than a 'Ruin decision'. Or a result of the fact that Preservation could have just followed him and stopped him from destroying wherever he went. But maybe the deal was more appealing to Ruin than I gave it credit for.

[Treamayne]

Welcome to the Shard. Please consider an Intro Post to let us know what you have or have-not read (whichever list is shorter). Also, please consider checking out the Sharder FAQ for some useful forum info and tips. 

17 hours ago, Namle84 said:

Mistborn Spoilers

Spoiler

It’s not like Ruin is going around smiting people either, even though it seems like the intent would want to

 

Please keep in mind this is SA discussion, not Cosmere Discussion. Please spoiler tag all information from series other than SA. 

[alder24]

There are certainly several agreements at play here. First one is the pact made at the Shattering between Shards, where they all made a promise (not an oath) to not interfere with each other. Hoid was a part of that agreement. However, during SA he's in a direct violation of this promise and that exposes him to full wrath of Odium, if he was ever found. This is the reason why he insisted on being included in the Dalinar's contract with Odium, which protected him for the whole 10 days. 1st OB letter:

Quote

It was agreed that we would not interfere with one another, and it disappoints me that so few of the Shards have kept to this original agreement. 

 

Spoiler

Nameless36

All the Shards basically agreed not to settle on the same planet. Six of them - that we know of - immediately, basically broke that.

Brandon Sanderson

So... they did not make an oath to it. There was a suggestion made... and perhaps the people who made the suggestion did not understand that, if you want the Shards to do something, you need an actual oath. And they did not get one.

Tel Aviv Signing (Oct. 18, 2019)  

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Memory is tied to some level or portion of Spiritual Identity, or else Feruchemists would not be able to store it. So, Hoid lost memories at the end of Rhythm of War in his exchange with Odium. Would that mean part of his soul was stolen and then absorbed into Odium, and if so, what is stopping Odium from doing that with all of his enemies?

Brandon Sanderson

Basically, what Odium split off is stuff that Hoid is storing in excess Investiture. (Basically, it was Breaths, in Hoid’s case.) And this sort of thing, where this extra memory… One of the reasons that Hoid is able to function better than, perhaps, some other very long-lived individuals is: he has found out how to keep some of this Identity in, shall we say, SD cards made of Investiture. Imagine that sort of thing. So what Odium was stealing from Hoid was straight out of an SD card. Which means that it’s not nearly as deeply ripping into someone’s soul, and it is also not nearly as noticeable.

But the other thing is: Hoid is directly in violation of certain agreements that have been made, which therefore exposes him to… He is lacking protections. As you’ll notice in the end of Book Three, where he’s like, “I need to be careful, because I am in violation.”

And so, there’s a couple things going on here. Number one, much more easy to access those memories. Number two, Hoid’s in direct violation and under no protections of any sorts of agreements and things like this.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

Odium also cannot act directly against those who didn't fully commit themselves to him, he can't kill anyone unless they're his. This is part of the restrictions placed on him by Honor. RoW I-4:

Quote

BUT I CANNOT STRIKE HIM DOWN DIRECTLY. NOT UNLESS HE PUTS HIMSELF INTO MY HANDS

RoW ch 112:

Quote

You would be in my power, and the restrictions Honor placed upon me—chaining me to the Rosharan system and preventing me from using my powers on most individuals—would be void.

WaT ch 113:

Quote

“HMMM…” RAYSE SAID, STROLLING THROUGH THE SNOW. “NO, WE DO NOT WANT ANOTHER … SITUATION LIKE ASHYN. BUT WOULD YOU HAVE US CUT OFF ALL CONTACT WITH THE MORTALS? THEY NEED GODS, TANNER. AND I’VE NEVER MET A DRAGON WHO COULD RESIST BEING WORSHIPPED.”
“WE CAN INTERACT,” KOR SAID. “IF WE HAVE LIMITS.”

But that and the contest agreement were broken by Honor, the pact made by Shards at the Shattering still remained but Hoid violated this one, which placed him entirely at Retribution's mercy without any protections. WaT ch 145:

Quote

Now, to deal with one other oathbreaker. The Heralds, he saw, were safe from his touch. But one person was not, a person both powers warned him to deal with immediately.
Where was Wit?

 

Cosmere spoilers:

Spoiler

It's possible that there are overall restrictions placed upon Shards either by pacts made after the Shattering, or by the nature of Adonalsium himself, preventing killing people directly by Shards, but we don't know this. We don't really see people being killed by Shards directly anywhere, so that's why it's possible that such restrictions exist.

As for Scadrial, that's a unique situation. The entire planet and their people were created directly by Preservation and Ruin - Scadrians are made out of his essence. Moreover, the pact they made before Scadrial was created was broken by Preservation. Ruin could have killed anyone he wanted because of those two factors, but Preservation's power was constantly opposing every action of his and protecting people. They were equal in power and thus he couldn't act directly against people. If he were to recover his Atium, he would have been able to fully destroy Scadrial and humans directly with his power.

Spoiler

Chaos (paraphrased)

What would have happened if Ruin did get the atium? Yeah, the world is destroyed, but how does Ruin "absorb" the atium so he can utilize the power?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He would metabolize it, just like the normal people have to do. However, if he did get it he would then be able to destroy the world.

Ancient 17S Q&A (May 1, 2010)

 

Spoiler

Kyrroti

Shards can't break oaths, and new Vessels have to follow previous Shards' deals. Ruin and Preservation made a deal. Does Harmony have to follow that deal?

Brandon Sanderson

The Ruin and Preservation deal is considered fulfilled. There's a lot of things going on in here. The way that oaths work, perception is still important. And Shards can break deals, it gives others a way to get at them. Odium could break his deal, but if he did, that's very dangerous to those who would seek to have advantage against him. I think fulfilled is the wrong term, the deal between Ruin and Preservation is broken, and no longer in force because it was broken. This does leave Ruin with more advantage in this situation, but they're the same individual, so I'm sure that's just fine! No problems at all! Everybody's doing just great.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

 

 

[Namle84]

Thank you all! I went and tried to put my Mistborn–spoiler post behind a spoiler tag, but I’m not sure how to do it.

As for what I have read – everything in the Cosmere, up to and including Emberdark.

And thank you for the helpful responses! I have been puzzling recently over whether  various things in Stormlight, this topic among them, reflect inconsistencies, plot holes, or forgetfulness on my part, so this is really helpful!

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Namle84 said:

Thank you all! I went and tried to put my Mistborn–spoiler post behind a spoiler tag, but I’m not sure how to do it.

That was why I linked the Sharder FAQ:

Quote

Also, please consider checking out the Sharder FAQ for some useful forum info and tips

It has that info and a whole lot more to make it easy for new Sharders to adjust (conveniently located in the Introduce Yourself section).

Edited 3 minutes ago by Treamayne
SPAG