PanLin they/he Posted April 5 Posted April 5 tl;dr: The point of the Knights Radiant isn't to make people better (although that's a common side-effect); they're about Honor and Cultivation creating a framework to train and mould mortals to handle powers and realmatic concepts in the way those two Shards believe is best for Roshar and the Cosmere. Additionally, the 10 orders aren't just random expressions of two Surges; they're realmatically informed expressions of Identity and Connection as defined by both their position and the number of connections they have in the Double Eye diagram. Intro To link back to my theory that everything in the Cosmere can be described as a vector on a 2D Identity/Connection plane, I propose that all orders are designed to take an individual, with the various spren entrusted with the job of identifying candidates for each order, and train them to modify their sense of Identity until it aligns perfectly with Honor and Cultivation's idea of the powers and responsibilities of that order, Connecting them to Roshar and the two Shards and achieving a sort of enlightenment. Self-improvement is a tool to reach that goal, not the goal itself. Honor set out the rules and limits that define which powers people are allowed to have and which spren grant those powers, and Cultivation defined the evolutions and 'corrections' (according to Cultivation's judgement) someone would have to make to their Identity in order to self-actualise and properly Connect them to the philosophy of each order. This is a process that takes five steps, each of which requires a related oath (unique to each person) to strive toward that ideal: Opting in to whole process (Honor and Cultivation respect agency, unlike, say, Odium and Ruin) Committing to the core philosophy of the order Removing personal bias to start shaping Identity Understanding limits to ensure control and alignment Achieving a sort of enlightenment by Connecting personal Identity perfectly with the philosophy of the order Inspiration Just a quick shout-out to @Karger and his series of theories on the ideals across the orders (a big inspiration for me thinking about it all). If people are interested, I might do a similar deep-dive into each order as its own topic, but I don't currently plan to. Known Ideals / Themes With any theory, the best place to start is with what we know: Spoiler Order Ideal Number Spoken by All Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination. 1 Windrunners I will protect those who cannot protect themselves. 2 Kaladin, Lopen Windrunners I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right. 3 Kaladin Windrunners I will protect even those I hate, even if the one I hate most is myself. 3 Teft Windrunners I’ve got to protect people, you know? Even from myself. 3 Lopen Windrunners I accept that there will be those I cannot protect. 4 Kaladin Windrunners I will protect myself, so that I may continue to protect others. 5 Kaladin Skybreakers I will put the law before all else. 2 Skybreakers I swear to seek justice, to let it guide me, until I find a more perfect Ideal. 2 Szeth Skybreakers I swear to follow the will of Dalinar Kholin. This is my oath. 3 Szeth Skybreakers I will cleanse the Shin of their false leaders, so long as Dalinar Kholin agrees. 4 Szeth Skybreakers I am my own agent. I make my own choices. I. Am. THE LAW! 5 Szeth Dustbringers To control my power, I will control myself.* 2 Dustbringers To understand my power, I will understand what power is.* 3 Edgedancers I will remember those who have been forgotten. 2 Lift Edgedancers I will listen to those who have been ignored. 3 Lift Truthwatchers I will seek truth wherever it is hidden.* 2 Truthwatchers I will reveal truth to all who seek it.* 3 Lightweavers "Truths" Elsecallers "Aspirations" WIllshapers I will seek freedom for those in bondage. 2 Venli WIllshapers I will fight oppression…* Stonewards I will step forward when others fall back.* Stonewards I will be the foundation on which others can build.* Bondsmiths I will unite instead of divide. I will bring men together. 2 Dalinar Bondsmiths I will take responsibility for what I have done. If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man. 3 Dalinar (the ones with asterisks are from the Cosmere RPG, and should probably be taken with a touch of salt) Happy to chat through any specifics on this, but essentially I look at those and can immediately see patterns in each level. Obviously we have very few examples on fourth and fifth ideals, but there is a commonality. From these examples, I put together what I consider to be the overall themes: Spoiler Number Theme 1 Standard oath to join the Knights Radiant 2 Commitment to core philosophy of the order 3 Correction of internal misalignment 4 Acceptance of limits / failure conditions 5 Personification of core philosophy I'll come back to it below, but I also think that Lightweavers and Elsecallers aren't outliers at all, and both fit the point of the ideals perfectly. Getting metaphysical I couldn't help myself in adding this in, and I do think it helps guide our thinking as to what the oaths and ideals actually are. Pulling from my theory that there are only 8 true surges (Adhesion and Progression, and therefore Bondsmith and Truthwatcher, were directly added by Honor and Cultivation as pure representations of themselves), we can naturally group the 10 orders into three groups, based on their position and the number of connections they have in the Double Eye diagram: Spoiler Orders with four connections all have a direct connection to one of the two 'God Orders', aka primary orders. These orders can be considered as abstractions of those primary orders that operate solely on either Identity or Connection (eg: Windrunners and Stonewards take the core concept of Bondsmiths and contextually apply it in different ways). Orders with three connections lack a connection to a primary order and can be considered as further abstractions, operating on some combination of Identity and Connection (eg: Skybreakers use an external Connection to laws or other structures to inform their Identity, where Elsecallers define a Connection they wish to fulfill and use that to inform their growth and Identity). Primary orders: Bondsmith (pure Honor) Truthwatcher (pure Cultivation) Secondary orders: Windrunner (external Bondsmith abstraction, Connection) Edgedancer (external Truthwatcher abstraction, Identity) Lightweaver (internal Truthwatcher abstraction, Identity) Stoneward (internal Bondsmith abstraction, Connection) Tertiary orders: Skybreakers (internalised Connection to inform Identity) Dustbringers (internalised Identity to inform Connection) Elsecallers (externalised Connection to inform Identity) Willshapers (externalised Identity to inform Connection) Context Matters Now, especially because we have so few examples for each order, it's hugely important to remember that the ideals are unique to each individual. Kaladin, Teft and Lopen all swore the third ideal of the Windrunners with slightly different, but heavily related, words. Another big one to keep in mind here is Jasnah; she has a... unique outlook on life, and we know from the official website that Elsecallers are about reaching personal potential, attracting a wide range of people. Jasnah's approach to the order should not be taken as the default example, but should be considered through the lens of her personality. This is true of all the orders, I just felt like Jasnah was the most obvious example to use. To explain what I mean, below is an extension of the above table with the contextual bits added, using Kaladin as an example. Kaladin's internal struggles have always centred around being a failure and considering himself so bad at protecting others that he actually blames himself for their deaths/losses/struggles. He carries a hell of a lot of shame, self-hatred and depression around this fact, considering himself not worthy of basic human needs like love and happiness. The further he gets into the oaths, the more they target and address his personal fears and other emotional baggage preventing him from achieving self-actualisation. The first hint of this is his third ideal, swearing to protect those he hates as long as it's the right thing to do (much like Teft, he hates himself, so this is an important step both for advancing through the ideals and for preparing himself to make future oaths). By the end of Wind and Truth, this has evolved into finally accepting that he IS deserving of love, and that being physically unable to protect everyone doesn't mean that he's a failure, or that he should give up; he swears an oath to protect himself first, so that he can survive and protect everyone he can. Spoiler Number Theme Personalisation Example (Kaladin) 1 Standard oath to join the Knights Radiant Universal Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination. 2 Commitment to core philosophy of the order Specific to current understanding I will protect those who cannot protect themselves. 3 Correction of internal misalignment Specific to personal bias I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right. 4 Acceptance of limits / failure conditions Specific to personal history I accept that there will be those I cannot protect. 5 Personification of core philosophy Specific to biggest personal blocker I will protect myself, so that I may continue to protect others. I've also added another example to the Willshapers section, using myself as an example to predict what my ideals might be. In each of the sections below, I propose a set of 'generic' ideals, which can be viewed as something like templates; general lessons that people have to internalise and apply to themselves before advancing to the next level. Windrunners Spoiler Windrunners: I will protect Number Theme Ideal 2 Commitment to core philosophy of the order I will protect those who cannot protect themselves. 3 Correction of internal misalignment I will protect even those I do not wish to protect. 4 Acceptance of limits / failure conditions I accept that I cannot protect everyone. 5 Personification of core philosophy I will protect others without losing myself. Secondary order, Connection/Connection Windrunners are outward-facing. Where Bondsmiths define bonds and bring people together, Windrunners strengthen those bonds by protecting people. The resonance of Windrunners (more and stronger squires) is also super Connection-coded). Skybreakers Spoiler Skybreakers: I will seek justice Number Theme Ideal 2 Commitment to core philosophy of the order I will follow a code greater than myself. 3 Correction of internal misalignment I will submit my judgement to a chosen external source. 4 Acceptance of limits / failure conditions I accept that law can not always be applied simply and perfectly to reality. 5 Personification of core philosophy I will become the law. Tertiary order, Connection/Identity Skybreakers internalise Connection to shape Identity. They begin with external systems of law and transform themselves to embody those structures. A Skybreaker's ideals are, as should be expected, very formalised. Their third and fourth ideals in particular, Dedication and Crusade, are very literal project-based oaths that are designed so they can personally experience: correction of internal misalignment, by deferring their decision-making to an external source and swearing to follow them absolutely acceptance of limits, by experiencing first-hand what it means to try to apply law and order to a chaotic system Skybreakers (at least, Nale's Skybreakers) are quite strict about these ideals, and their Highspren judges at what point the necessary lesson has been learned. Dustbringers Spoiler Dustbringers: I will seek self-mastery Number Theme Ideal 2 Commitment to core philosophy of the order I will control my power. 3 Correction of internal misalignment I will understand my power and its consequences. 4 Acceptance of limits / failure conditions I accept that I am capable of great harm. 5 Personification of core philosophy I will trust my self-mastery to act with precision and purpose. Tertiary order, Identity/Connection Dustbringers internalise Identity to shape Connection. They begin with self-mastery, then express that control through responsible use of power in the world. Edgedancers Spoiler Edgedancers: I will remember Number Theme Ideal 2 Commitment to core philosophy of the order I will remember those who have been forgotten. 3 Correction of internal misalignment I will learn from others what it means to be remembered. 4 Acceptance of limits / failure conditions I accept that I cannot remember everyone. 5 Personification of core philosophy I will share the stories of the forgotten, so they are not lost. Secondary order, Identity/Identity Edgedancers are outward-facing. Where Truthwatchers define truth, Edgedancers apply it to others, refusing to let anyone be forgotten. Truthwatchers Spoiler Truthwatchers: I will seek truth Number Theme Ideal 2 Commitment to core philosophy of the order I will seek truth wherever it is hidden. 3 Correction of internal misalignment I will share truth without distorting it with my personal bias. 4 Acceptance of limits / failure conditions I accept that I may be wrong, and truth may be incomplete. 5 Personification of core philosophy I will seek and share truth, even when it is unwelcome. Primary order, Identity/Identity Truthwatchers define Identity through truth. Their oaths centre on perceiving reality clearly and aligning the self with what is true. Lightweavers Spoiler Lightweavers: I will speak my truth Number Theme Ideal 2 Commitment to core philosophy of the order I will admit a truth about myself. 3 Correction of internal misalignment I will confront deeper, painful truths I hide. 4 Acceptance of limits / failure conditions I accept the contradictions within myself. 5 Personification of core philosophy I am the truths I have accepted, and cannot change the past. Secondary order, Identity/Identity Lightweavers are inward-facing. Where Truthwatchers define truth, Lightweavers uncover it within themselves to progress through personal revelations. Elsecallers Spoiler Elsecallers: I will reach my potential Number Theme Ideal 2 Commitment to core philosophy of the order I will strive to reach my potential. 3 Correction of internal misalignment I will not be held back or distracted by false beliefs about myself. 4 Acceptance of limits / failure conditions I accept that I cannot become everything. 5 Personification of core philosophy I am who I choose to be. Tertiary order, Connection/Identity Elsecallers externalise Connection to shape Identity. They identify missing roles in the world, then aspire to evolve to fill those roles. Willshapers Spoiler Willshapers: I will seek freedom Number Theme Ideal 2 Commitment to core philosophy of the order I will seek freedom for all. 3 Correction of internal misalignment I will not impose my will on others in the name of freedom. 4 Acceptance of limits / failure conditions I accept that freedom cannot be forced on those who do not want it. 5 Personification of core philosophy I will free myself from burdens and restrictions to inspire others. Tertiary order, Identity/Connection Willshapers externalise Identity to shape Connection. They begin with autonomy and self-expression, then project that outward by enabling freedom for others. Personal Willshaper example: Spoiler Without going into details, my biggest blockers and areas for growth would likely be around dealing with my juicy history of depression, lack of self-worth, and constant imposter syndrome. Additionally, my personal understanding of 'freedom' is currently more around personal freedom and agency than it is about literally freeing people who are physically bound. With all that in mind, I might expect my ideals to contextualise the template I defined as so: Number Theme Personalisation Example (me) 1 Standard oath to join the Knights Radiant Universal Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination. 2 Commitment to core philosophy of the order Specific to current understanding I will enable agency for everyone, except those would oppress others. 3 Correction of internal misalignment Specific to personal bias I will trust others to tell me what 'agency' means to them. 4 Acceptance of limits / failure conditions Specific to personal history I cannot inspire agency in others while hypocritically hiding or denying parts of myself. 5 Personification of core philosophy Specific to biggest personal blocker I will show love and trust to my true self without making excuses or trying to be perfect. Stonewards Spoiler Stonewards: I will be there when I'm needed Number Theme Ideal 2 Commitment to core philosophy of the order I will stand when others would fall. 3 Correction of internal misalignment I will help others on their terms, not my own. 4 Acceptance of limits / failure conditions I accept that I cannot hold every line, but mine will not fall. 5 Personification of core philosophy I will be the foundation for others to stand upon. Secondary order, Connection/Connection Stonewards are inward-facing. Where Bondsmiths define bonds, Stonewards embody them, becoming solid foundations to empower others. Bondsmiths Spoiler Bondsmiths: I will unite Number Theme Ideal 2 Commitment to core philosophy of the order I will bring people together. 3 Correction of internal misalignment I will accept and integrate my past mistakes to learn from them. 4 Acceptance of limits / failure conditions I accept that true unity can only be inspired, not forced. 5 Personification of core philosophy I will be the binding framework of community. Primary order, Connection/Connection Bondsmiths define Connection itself. Their oaths are about creating, strengthening, and embodying bonds. If Dalinar were still around, I suspect he would've struggled greatly with his fourth ideal. A lot of his character arc (at least within the main timeline) is centred around him shifting away from being a dictator and toward being a true leader. It's something he struggled with right to the very end, and the Blackthorn is a version of Dalinar who has no interest in learning that. Summary In case you just want to look at all the ideals in one place, here you go: Spoiler Order Number Theme Ideal All 1 Standard oath to join the Knights Radiant Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination. Windrunners 2 Commitment to core philosophy of the order I will protect those who cannot protect themselves. Windrunners 3 Correction of internal misalignment I will protect even those I do not wish to protect. Windrunners 4 Acceptance of limits / failure conditions I accept that I cannot protect everyone. Windrunners 5 Personification of core philosophy I will protect others without losing myself. Skybreakers 2 Commitment to core philosophy of the order I will follow a code greater than myself. Skybreakers 3 Correction of internal misalignment I will submit my judgement to a chosen external source. Skybreakers 4 Acceptance of limits / failure conditions I accept that law can not always be applied simply and perfectly to reality. Skybreakers 5 Personification of core philosophy I will become the law. Dustbringers 2 Commitment to core philosophy of the order I will control my power. Dustbringers 3 Correction of internal misalignment I will understand my power and its consequences. Dustbringers 4 Acceptance of limits / failure conditions I accept that I am capable of great harm. Dustbringers 5 Personification of core philosophy I will trust my self-mastery to act with precision and purpose. Edgedancers 2 Commitment to core philosophy of the order I will remember those who have been forgotten. Edgedancers 3 Correction of internal misalignment I will learn from others what it means to be remembered. Edgedancers 4 Acceptance of limits / failure conditions I accept that I cannot remember everyone. Edgedancers 5 Personification of core philosophy I will share the stories of the forgotten, so they are not lost. Truthwatchers 2 Commitment to core philosophy of the order I will seek truth wherever it is hidden. Truthwatchers 3 Correction of internal misalignment I will share truth without distorting it with my personal bias. Truthwatchers 4 Acceptance of limits / failure conditions I accept that I may be wrong, and truth may be incomplete. Truthwatchers 5 Personification of core philosophy I will seek and share truth, even when it is unwelcome. Lightweavers 2 Commitment to core philosophy of the order I will admit a truth about myself. Lightweavers 3 Correction of internal misalignment I will confront deeper, painful truths I hide. Lightweavers 4 Acceptance of limits / failure conditions I accept the contradictions within myself. Lightweavers 5 Personification of core philosophy I am the truths I have accepted, and cannot change the past. Elsecallers 2 Commitment to core philosophy of the order I will strive to reach my potential. Elsecallers 3 Correction of internal misalignment I will not be held back or distracted by false beliefs about myself. Elsecallers 4 Acceptance of limits / failure conditions I accept that I cannot become everything. Elsecallers 5 Personification of core philosophy I am who I choose to be. Willshapers 2 Commitment to core philosophy of the order I will seek freedom for all. Willshapers 3 Correction of internal misalignment I will not impose my will on others in the name of freedom. Willshapers 4 Acceptance of limits / failure conditions I accept that freedom cannot be forced on those who do not want it. Willshapers 5 Personification of core philosophy I will free myself from burdens and restrictions to inspire others. Stonewards 2 Commitment to core philosophy of the order I will stand when others would fall. Stonewards 3 Correction of internal misalignment I will help others on their terms, not my own. Stonewards 4 Acceptance of limits / failure conditions I accept that I cannot hold every line, but mine will not fall. Stonewards 5 Personification of core philosophy I will be the foundation for others to stand upon. Bondsmiths 2 Commitment to core philosophy of the order I will bring people together. Bondsmiths 3 Correction of internal misalignment I will accept and integrate my past mistakes to learn from them. Bondsmiths 4 Acceptance of limits / failure conditions I accept that true unity can only be inspired, not forced. Bondsmiths 5 Personification of core philosophy I will be the binding framework of community. As always, thoughts and discussion welcome! 4
Myst He/Him Posted April 5 Posted April 5 (edited) I can agree with most of this, except I have two problems. 1. The knights radiants are based off the honor blades, which are only made from Honor’s essence(Cultivation wasn’t there when the oath pact was made) that means each surge must have, at the very least, a small part of honor in it, otherwise the Honorblades couldn’t have been able to grant the surge of progression. That means your assumption that progression is only of cultivation cannot be true. We get in-world confirmation of this through the Fused, who don’t accept Honor or Cultivation, but accept progression as a surge, but not Adhesion. Going a bit more into this, from WaT, we know Honor messed with the knights Ideals to make them fit his shard so they could use more of his investiture, but we don’t get that from Cultivation, and considering her stance on not interfering with Honors and Odiums frequent wars, I don’t see why she should. The only way Cultivation is involved in the orders is because she helped make the Spren who people bond. 2 It’s all up to the Spren. Every time someone has said an ideal, either the sibling or the storm father approved it. They’ve even said no to an ideal being sworn (Venli). They have control over what oaths you swear, if the Stormfather thinks that an ideal isn’t the right one for you, you’re not saying the ideal. Furthermore, the other spren determine when you’ve broken your oath. Honorspren are the easiest example. Nale even said that they prove Spren are fallible. What this means is that if you can argue something well, if you can make someone feel something, you can swear whatever oaths you want. If you’re a Windrunner, if you can convince your Spren that the oath is right, and you can convince the Stormfather or the Sibling that it’s the oath you need to swear. That’s the oath you swear. so these things may be the common ideals, but a Windrunner could swear pretty much any ideal, it’s the Spren that determines the surges after all, not the oaths. Also different personalities or mental states may produce ideals drastically different from the ones you have. These are my thoughts, maybe you’ve already considered them, maybe not. But I do like the framework, I just disagree with the premise and part of the result Edited April 5 by Through the Living Mist Clarity 2
PanLin they/he Posted April 5 Author Posted April 5 (edited) On 4/5/2026 at 7:49 PM, Through the Living Mist said: 1. The knights radiants are based off the honor blades, which are only made from Honor’s essence(Cultivation wasn’t there when the oath pact was made) that means each surge must have, at the very least, a small part of honor in it, otherwise the Honorblades couldn’t have been able to grant the surge of progression. That means your assumption that progression is only of cultivation cannot be true. We get in-world confirmation of this through the Fused, who don’t accept Honor or Cultivation, but accept progression as a surge, but not Adhesion. Yeah valid callout! I should've addressed it in my post. I spoke about this in my 8 Surges theory, but essentially: Honor and Cultivation were already heavily invested in Roshar and each other by that point; Adhesion and Progression, therefore, were also part of Roshar The Oathpact had 9 original volunteers, a number Honor refused to use. 8 original Surges plus his own left one gap, which I reckon he just used Cultivation's power (either directly or just as inspiration) to make 10 (it could just as easily been 1, 4 or 16 members, in which case would likely not have needed to be hacked together with Honor's and Cultivation's True Surges, and also confirms that the concept of the 20 Surges isn't some Cosmere constant) If it was just inspiration, it gives a potential reason as to why Odium could use Progression but not Adhesion—Adhesion was a True Surge from another Shard, but Progression was just an expression of Investiture inspired by another Shard, and therefore had fewer restrictions around it It's less that Fused don't accept the other two Shards, and more that Odium was either unable to access Adhesion or was somehow prevented from using it There are plenty of hints throughout the books that Odium mostly had a vendetta against Honor Ultimately, a Shard's influence is more over how an Invested Art is acquired than it is about the powers that Art allows for. Honor originally created a system based purely on oaths, and Cultivation adapted it to include her influence in the form of growth and progression (kind of related, but I still view Surgebinding as Honor's Invested Art—the true combo Art of Honor and Cultivation is, imo, Fabrials AKA Lifebinding) Feruchemy came about without the direct action of either Preservation OR Ruin; creating an Invested Art that simply uses the already-existing influence of another Shard (especially a Shard you're so close to and have spent thousands of years co-Investing a planet with) seems a minor feat in comparison On 4/5/2026 at 7:49 PM, Through the Living Mist said: Going a bit more into this, from WaT, we know Honor messed with the knights Ideals to make them fit his shard so they could use more of his investiture, but we don’t get that from Cultivation, and considering her stance on not interfering with Honors and Odiums frequent wars, I don’t see why she should. The only way Cultivation is involved in the orders is because she helped make the Spren who people bond. Fully agree with you on this bit, except for one thing—Honor didn't put the ideals in place; they came later, with Cultivation's help. Also, her not wanting to interfere directly with the feud actually adds more evidence as to why both Honor and Odium could access Progression. On 4/5/2026 at 7:49 PM, Through the Living Mist said: 2 It’s all up to the Spren. Every time someone has said an ideal, either the sibling or the storm father approved it. They’ve even said no to an ideal being sworn (Venli). They have control over what oaths you swear, if the Stormfather thinks that an ideal isn’t the right one for you, you’re not saying the ideal. Furthermore, the other spren determine when you’ve broken your oath. Honorspren are the easiest example. Nale even said that they prove Spren are fallible. What this means is that if you can argue something well, if you can make someone feel something, you can swear whatever oaths you want. If you’re a Windrunner, if you can convince your Spren that the oath is right, and you can convince the Stormfather or the Sibling that it’s the oath you need to swear. That’s the oath you swear. so these things may be the common ideals, but a Windrunner could swear pretty much any ideal, it’s the Spren that determines the surges after all, not the oaths. Also different personalities or mental states may produce ideals drastically different from the ones you have. Yep, I agree! My suggested ideals aren't 'these are the words people need to say', but a general learning objective. We've seen three different third-level Windrunner oaths, but they all essentially represent the same idea. It's up to the spren (who were chosen, invested and put to the job by Honor and Cultivation) to decide whether the words a radiant speaks, along with what they actually mean by those words, are close enough to the lesson they need to learn to advance. For example, I've suggested 'I will share the stories of the forgotten, so they are not lost' as the fifth Edgedancer ideal. If you were a particularly scholarly Edgedancer dealing with insecurities about not being well suited to the front lines of battle, something like 'I will document the stories of lost cultures for future generations to read' could easily be accepted by your cultivationspren (Edgedancer Sazed, anyone?). On 4/5/2026 at 7:49 PM, Through the Living Mist said: These are my thoughts, maybe you’ve already considered them, maybe not. But I do like the framework, I just disagree with the premise and part of the result I appreciate you sharing them with me! I had already considered them, but it's always worth exploring stuff like this. I don't think what you've raised is enough to change my mind for now, but I'm very happy for you to challenge me further. Edited April 9 by PanLin 1
Myst He/Him Posted April 5 Posted April 5 56 minutes ago, PanLin said: Yeah valid callout! I should've addressed it in my post. I spoke about this in my 8 Surges theory, but essentially: Honor and Cultivation were already heavily invested in Roshar and each other by that point; Adhesion and Progression, therefore, were also part of Roshar The Oathpact had 9 original volunteers, a number Honor refused to use. 8 original Surges plus his own left one gap, which I reckon he just used Cultivation's power (either directly or just as inspiration) to make 10 (it could just as easily been 1, 4 or 16 members, in which case would likely not have needed to be hacked together with Honor's and Cultivation's True Surges) If it was just inspiration, it gives a potential reason as to why Odium could use Progression but not Adhesion—Adhesion was a True Surge from another Shard, but Progression was just an expression of Investiture inspired by another Shard, and therefore had fewer restrictions around it It's less that Fused don't accept the other two Shards, and more that Odium was either unable to access Adhesion or was somehow prevented from using it There are plenty of hints throughout the books that Odium mostly had a vendetta against Honor Ultimately, a Shard's influence is more over how an Invested Art is acquired than it is about the powers that Art allows for. Honor originally created a system based purely on oaths, and Cultivation adapted it to include her influence in the form of growth and progression (kind of related, but I still view Surgebinding as Honor's Invested Art—the true combo Art of Honor and Cultivation is, imo, Fabrials AKA Lifebinding) Feruchemy came about without the direct action of either Preservation OR Ruin; creating an Invested Art that simply uses the already-existing influence of another Shard (especially a Shard you're so close to and have spent thousands of years co-Investing a planet with) seems a minor feat in comparison Thanks for linking the thread. I looked through it, and it seems no one brought up the sibling or Odium(not in the way I’m going to, at least) So. If there’s a surge for honor, and a surge for cultivation, what about the surge for Odium? He could have done the 8 surges plus his own pseudo surge rather than cultivations. I’m glad you brought up feruchemy. The existence of shards on a planet shapes the magic system. With the Sibling, when Odium got accepted by Roshar, it messed with everything, making it so that the sibling could make tower light, and so they had to leave urithuru. In the visions and the gems that come after that point, there’s never any mention of people having to relearn how to use stormlight or the surges, there’s no mention of a new order of radiant for this surge(if Cultivation and Honor have a surge, Odium must as well) and yet we never have any reference to it. The closest we get is voidbinding and that seems(from what we know) to work completely differently from the surges. 1 hour ago, PanLin said: Fully agree with you on this bit, except for one thing—Honor didn't put the ideals in place; they came later, with Cultivation's help. Also, her not wanting to interfere directly with the feud actually adds more evidence as to why both Honor and Odium could access Progression. My understanding was that the orders were founded, the ideals sworn, and then Honor came in later to change the ideals to match his intent. 1 hour ago, PanLin said: Yep, I agree! My suggested ideals aren't 'these are the words people need to say', but a general learning objective. We've seen three different third-level Windrunner oaths, but they all essentially represent the same idea. It's up to the spren (who were chosen, invested and put to the job by Honor and Cultivation) to decide whether the words a radiant speaks, along with what they actually mean by those words, are close enough to the lesson they need to learn to advance. For example, I've suggested 'I will share the stories of the forgotten, so they are not lost' as the fifth Edgedancer ideal. If you were a particularly scholarly Edgedancer dealing with insecurities about not being well suited to the front lines of battle, something like 'I will document the stories of lost cultures for future generations to read' could easily be accepted by your cultivationspren (Edgedancer Sazed, anyone?). While I agree with everything you’ve said here, I was thinking of things a lot more drastically. Basically a Windrunner swearing the ideal “I accept that I will never be able to say the 4th ideal” as the 4th after swearing the first three like normal by convincing their Spren that it was the ideal they needed to swear. To me this ideal goes against a lot of what Windrunners, and knights stand for(but if you think otherwise, that’s fair) also yes, Edgedancer Sazed 1 hour ago, PanLin said: I appreciate you sharing them with me! I had already considered them, but it's always worth exploring stuff like this. I don't think what you've raised is enough to change my mind for now, but I'm very happy for you to challenge me further. From the amount of threads about this, it seems you’ve put a lot of thought into this, I’d be kinda sad if I convinced you to change your mind 1
PanLin they/he Posted April 6 Author Posted April 6 Going to apologise in advance—apparently I have a lot to say 15 hours ago, Through the Living Mist said: So. If there’s a surge for honor, and a surge for cultivation, what about the surge for Odium? He could have done the 8 surges plus his own pseudo surge rather than cultivations. Ah, now this is a good spanner in my theory! I do have some thoughts as to why. Pick your poison, but essentially I believe that every Shard has a True Surge. Side note, but all of this is keeping in mind the context that everything in the Cosmere is subject to perception and Intent. The form of the Sub-astrals is the most obvious example that comes to mind. We also know that, like you pointed out, Honor warped and constrained the powers of the Heralds and Radiants to make them fit his pattern (just like Preservation specifically decided to use 16 metallic powers, set up which specific metals granted which powers, and changed which ones naturally expressed to fit his goals). Which is all to say: we already know that people's perception of everything in the Cosmere, including stuff like fundamental forces, inherently changes how those things operate and express. Odium couldn't use his True Surge while bound by the Oathpact Spoiler It could just be that, because Odium was bound to Roshar with the same Oathpact that defined the Heralds, he was also limited to the same framework of Surges as defined by Honor. Now that he's free, I suspect that, rather than us seeing an eleventh Surge to represent Odium, we're going to see Adhesion change, incorporating Odium's True Surge, to create a new True Surge of Retribution. Odium doesn't create; he corrupts Spoiler Everything we know about Odium (similar reasoning to why I defined Odium as a Reduce Shard in my Dawnshards theory) implies that he didn't like to share (or at least, Rayse didn't), and that his influence reduces Identity: Fused literally take over a new host; a lot of the Unmade reduce Identity or sense of self in some way; Odium himself can both steal and overload someone's emotions (which are intertwined with Identity); enlightened spren use modified Surges rather than granting new ones (I'll admit that last one is theoretical). His whole jam before getting trapped was impairing the other Shards rather than absorbing their power and risking modifying himself. Based on that, it could just be that, given the option, he prefers to bend existing systems to his will rather than directly add something. So it could just be that he does have a True Surge, he just either doesn't grant it directly within Rosharan Surgebinding, or he prefers to express it as a corruption instead (the Unmade and/or Voidbinding powers may well be exactly that: Odium-warped expressions of the 'normal' Rosharan Surges). Personally, I lean toward the second explanation, but regardless, it's very possible that Odium did grant a ninth Surge to humans on Ashyn, and that they didn't have access to Adhesion or Progression (people being referred to as Bondsmiths back then doesn't necessarily mean they specifically had access to Adhesion). Maybe this is why everything went so badly on Ashyn: Odium's Surge was just too destructive and focused on Reducing. Basically everything we actually know about Odium is contextually defined by the effects of the Oathpact on him; we simply don't know enough about him. As for what Odium's True Surge might be, I suspect something destructive, impulsive, antithetical to a stable Identity, and much more emotionally coded than Adhesion or Progression. Maybe something like Antipode/Compulsion/Coercion/Impulse (although actually, Impulse might be Whimsy's True Surge). Just as there didn't need to be 10 Surges, the 16 Shards aren't like 'core', essential parts of the universe. They're perception-warped fragments of divinity each with their own character and Intent. If I'm right with this (big 'if', I know), then the True Surges are similarly not essential powers/forces. In the same way that Lerasium and Atium stopped occurring naturally after Harmony ascended (and I suspect that Harmony's True Surge would change if he ever properly becomes Discord), Adhesion as we know it shouldn't be accessible anymore. 15 hours ago, Through the Living Mist said: I’m glad you brought up feruchemy. The existence of shards on a planet shapes the magic system. With the Sibling, when Odium got accepted by Roshar, it messed with everything, making it so that the sibling could make tower light, and so they had to leave urithuru. In the visions and the gems that come after that point, there’s never any mention of people having to relearn how to use stormlight or the surges, there’s no mention of a new order of radiant for this surge(if Cultivation and Honor have a surge, Odium must as well) and yet we never have any reference to it. The closest we get is voidbinding and that seems(from what we know) to work completely differently from the surges. Sorry, not sure I follow the logic of the bolded bit. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Odium became part of Roshar because of the Oathpact, and that the Sibling 'broke' because of the Recreance and the imprisonment of Ba Ado Mishram? As for the rest of your point here, it's also worth noting that Honor and Cultivation had a few thousand years of uninterrupted shenanigans on Roshar before Odium got involved. Even then, Odium was restricted and mostly bound to Braize for almost all of his time on Roshar. Logically, we would expect Honor and Cultivation's influence to be stronger in general than Odium's. Odium absolutely does imo have a True Surge, but that doesn't mean Radiants would just automatically get access to it, especially when the pattern of Radiants was so strongly and specifically defined by Honor and the Oathpact. Also, Scadrial and its people were created directly by Preservation and Ruin, so naturally their Intents warped the planet and its rules and magic systems faster and more drastically. Roshar already existed before Honor, Cultivation and Odium Invested it. 15 hours ago, Through the Living Mist said: My understanding was that the orders were founded, the ideals sworn, and then Honor came in later to change the ideals to match his intent. We may be missing each other here—my understanding is the the Oathpact was sworn first, directly between Honor and the Heralds, and had nothing to do with ideals. This original oath is where Honor's Intent mostly came in, by defining exactly how the Surges could be used. Cultivation then worked with Honor to define the ideals and formalise the Progression (hehe) of the Knights Radiant. Also, my thinking is that the Yolish Surges are the real 'fundamental forces', and they're not bound to specific Shards—any Shard can grant access to any of them through their Invested Art. I posited in my other theory that Adhesion is sort of an Honor-specific expression of Yolish Cohesion, and that Progression is a Cultivation-specific expression of Yolish Illumination. With that logic, Honor didn't have to 'steal' or co-opt Progression, he just had to incorporate a version of Illumination that he knew was Cultivation's domain. Rioting and Soothing don't seem very Preservation-coded at all, but he could still grant those powers. 15 hours ago, Through the Living Mist said: While I agree with everything you’ve said here, I was thinking of things a lot more drastically. Basically a Windrunner swearing the ideal “I accept that I will never be able to say the 4th ideal” as the 4th after swearing the first three like normal by convincing their Spren that it was the ideal they needed to swear. To me this ideal goes against a lot of what Windrunners, and knights stand for(but if you think otherwise, that’s fair) Hm, I think, if it were that drastic, those words simply wouldn't be accepted. It's up to the spren's judgement, but we've seen words not be accepted before. The whole point is that the spren decides whether your words (and more importantly, what you mean by them) are viable words to level up in your chosen Order. I agree that your example goes against what the Radiants stand for, and therefore wouldn't be accepted. 15 hours ago, Through the Living Mist said: also yes, Edgedancer Sazed 15 hours ago, Through the Living Mist said: From the amount of threads about this, it seems you’ve put a lot of thought into this, I’d be kinda sad if I convinced you to change your mind I have put an unhealthy amount of time and thought into this, yes
Myst He/Him Posted April 7 Posted April 7 16 hours ago, PanLin said: Going to apologise in advance—apparently I have a lot to say It’s all good, I expect this to be similar 16 hours ago, PanLin said: It could just be that, because Odium was bound to Roshar with the same Oathpact that defined the Heralds, he was also limited to the same framework of Surges as defined by Honor. Now that he's free, I suspect that, rather than us seeing an eleventh Surge to represent Odium, we're going to see Adhesion change, incorporating Odium's True Surge, to create a new True Surge of Retribution I don’t think this explanation is even possible, as the oathpact was sworn after the fused were created. I suppose there could be scenario where the fused were given their immortality, and then later given their surges, but that seems really weird. Investiture repels other investiture, or rather, it’s harder to invest something already invested, meaning Odium would have had to sacrifice a lot of investiture, which probably could have been used to make an equal number of new fused with the surges, to give them the surges. Either way, I don’t think this one holds water. 16 hours ago, PanLin said: Everything we know about Odium (similar reasoning to why I defined Odium as a Reduce Shard in my Dawnshards theory) implies that he didn't like to share (or at least, Rayse didn't), and that his influence reduces Identity: Fused literally take over a new host; a lot of the Unmade reduce Identity or sense of self in some way; Odium himself can both steal and overload someone's emotions (which are intertwined with Identity); enlightened spren use modified Surges rather than granting new ones (I'll admit that last one is theoretical). His whole jam before getting trapped was impairing the other Shards rather than absorbing their power and risking modifying himself. Based on that, it could just be that, given the option, he prefers to bend existing systems to his will rather than directly add something. So it could just be that he does have a True Surge, he just either doesn't grant it directly within Rosharan Surgebinding, or he prefers to express it as a corruption instead (the Unmade and/or Voidbinding powers may well be exactly that: Odium-warped expressions of the 'normal' Rosharan Surges This would make sense, but the power would seek outlets naturally using the pre-established system(like feruchemy being established without direct shared involvement) whether he granted it to fused or not, it would still show up in the world in some form. Odium could decide to not grant people his surge, but the surge would show up naturally, which we don’t see. As for his surge being used to make the unmade, I’m not sure we know enough about the unmade. They’re basically splinters, Spren, and we haven’t seen other Spren able to use surges, so I don’t see how the unmade would be different. If the unmade were using Odiums surge, that would suggest that Spren could bond other Spren, yet we don’t ever see any hints of that being remotely possible 16 hours ago, PanLin said: Personally, I lean toward the second explanation, but regardless, it's very possible that Odium did grant a ninth Surge to humans on Ashyn, and that they didn't have access to Adhesion or Progression (people being referred to as Bondsmiths back then doesn't necessarily mean they specifically had access to Adhesion). Maybe this is why everything went so badly on Ashyn: Odium's Surge was just too destructive and focused on Reducing. Basically everything we actually know about Odium is contextually defined by the effects of the Oathpact on him; we simply don't know enough about him. As for what Odium's True Surge might be, I suspect something destructive, impulsive, antithetical to a stable Identity, and much more emotionally coded than Adhesion or Progression. Maybe something like Antipode/Compulsion/Coercion/Impulse (although actually, Impulse might be Whimsy's True Surge). Just as there didn't need to be 10 Surges, the 16 Shards aren't like 'core', essential parts of the universe. They're perception-warped fragments of divinity each with their own character and Intent. If I'm right with this (big 'if', I know), then the True Surges are similarly not essential powers/forces. In the same way that Lerasium and Atium stopped occurring naturally after Harmony ascended (and I suspect that Harmony's True Surge would change if he ever properly becomes Discord), Adhesion as we know it shouldn't be accessible anymore. I think being called Bondsmith actually does mean the same thing. We know Honor came over to Ashyn, so it’s entirely possible Ishar had access to Adhesion. Furthermore, they continued using the term when referring to that order. I don’t see why they would do that if they had different powers(unless we completely misunderstood what the term “bondsmith” refers too) I’m also skeptical of the possibility of being given a surge on Ashyn because we never get any mention of such a thing. Technically Lerasium and Atium are still around, which makes it seem possible that adhesion can still exist. Anyways, this, I don’t think I can answer till book 6. Navani goes unconscious, and Dalinar dies, so we don’t ever get an attempt from a Bondsmith to use an adhesion. Neither do we have a Windrunner attempt to do it. So I’m thinking we’re going to have to wait for a bit before discussing this. Especially since Honor was protecting the Spren and its other splinters, that same act may have prevented Adhesion from disappearing. We don’t know enough here. 17 hours ago, PanLin said: Sorry, not sure I follow the logic of the bolded bit. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Odium became part of Roshar because of the Oathpact, and that the Sibling 'broke' because of the Recreance and the imprisonment of Ba Ado Mishram? As for the rest of your point here, it's also worth noting that Honor and Cultivation had a few thousand years of uninterrupted shenanigans on Roshar before Odium got involved. Even then, Odium was restricted and mostly bound to Braize for almost all of his time on Roshar. Logically, we would expect Honor and Cultivation's influence to be stronger in general than Odium's. Odium absolutely does imo have a True Surge, but that doesn't mean Radiants would just automatically get access to it, especially when the pattern of Radiants was so strongly and specifically defined by Honor and the Oathpact. Also, Scadrial and its people were created directly by Preservation and Ruin, so naturally their Intents warped the planet and its rules and magic systems faster and more drastically. Roshar already existed before Honor, Cultivation and Odium Invested it. Yeah, that first part was my bad, I think I was misremembering something the sibling said when explaining why it lost its light. I’d argue that it was mostly Cultivation who had influence, Honor left for Ashyn, and when he came back, Odium came back with him, so I’d understand if it was mostly Cultivations influence, but not Honor’s. The oathpact happened after Odium came to Roshar, there still would have been time for his surge to manifest. Also, the Oathpact had nothing to do with the knights radiant, that didn’t happen till later. And the knights radiant still existed for a bit before Honor messed with it. Alright, yeah, I can see how that would change things. Shifting planets then. Now, we know that he killed Aona and Skai, and the Dor had enough time to invest the land. Now, Odium did have a smaller amount of time, but this is the closest example we’ve got. Odium still should’ve had time to have his surge manifest, especially since he was accepted by Roshar, and he was a pure tone of Roshar, despite being locked up on Braize. 17 hours ago, PanLin said: We may be missing each other here—my understanding is the the Oathpact was sworn first, directly between Honor and the Heralds, and had nothing to do with ideals. This original oath is where Honor's Intent mostly came in, by defining exactly how the Surges could be used. Cultivation then worked with Honor to define the ideals and formalise the Progression (hehe) of the Knights Radiant. Also, my thinking is that the Yolish Surges are the real 'fundamental forces', and they're not bound to specific Shards—any Shard can grant access to any of them through their Invested Art. I posited in my other theory that Adhesion is sort of an Honor-specific expression of Yolish Cohesion, and that Progression is a Cultivation-specific expression of Yolish Illumination. With that logic, Honor didn't have to 'steal' or co-opt Progression, he just had to incorporate a version of Illumination that he knew was Cultivation's domain. Rioting and Soothing don't seem very Preservation-coded at all, but he could still grant those powers. This was me not explaining well. I’m not talking about the oathpact, I’m talking about the original knight radiants oaths. The knights existed before Honor messed with them, so while the current system is because of his intervention, there was something before that, different oaths and all. That’s what I was talking about Alright, I can buy that, but then we have problems with defining exactly where something goes from “fair game” to “That’s Honor’s ability” 17 hours ago, PanLin said: Hm, I think, if it were that drastic, those words simply wouldn't be accepted. It's up to the spren's judgement, but we've seen words not be accepted before. The whole point is that the spren decides whether your words (and more importantly, what you mean by them) are viable words to level up in your chosen Order. I agree that your example goes against what the Radiants stand for, and therefore wouldn't be accepted. That was kinda the point I was making. Because fallible beings are deciding what oaths you can and cannot swear, they can mess up and accept an oath like this. Either on accident, or because you convinced them to(I don’t know if they could make you deswear? an oath) 17 hours ago, PanLin said: I have put an unhealthy amount of time and thought into this, yes Fair, it’s really well thought out. 1
Nitpicking Posted April 7 Posted April 7 Quote It’s all up to the Spren. Every time someone has said an ideal, either the sibling or the storm father approved it @Through the Living Mist, both The Wind and Dalinar accepted oaths from Kaladin. 1
Myst He/Him Posted April 7 Posted April 7 1 hour ago, Nitpicking said: @Through the Living Mist, both The Wind and Dalinar accepted oaths from Kaladin. I forgot about that, thanks. I still think my point stands, in fact, it might even be more likely. They’re all fallible, and since more people are able to accept oaths, the more likely you could convince one of them, even if you can’t convince the others.
WeLoveMoash Posted April 7 Posted April 7 (edited) In general, I think there's lots of good stuff here - like, some really interesting points especially about the Honor/Cultivation relationship with the Oaths. With that said, I don't think that I'm bought in on your interpretation of the progression of Oaths. More than anything, I think we still just don't have all the info we would need to make a strong guess about anything - and I think you're making some judgements that don't hold up to some of the info we do. The big issue is the 4th Ideal as "accepting limits" and 5th Ideal as connecting to the identity. I already think that you've made a big leap here, based on the info from the books. Your framework and written ideals dont even hold for what we know of the Skybreakers - who have the 4th Ideal be the Ideal of Crusade (and I'd argue their 5th Ideal is maybe being misunderstood as well). I don't know if you've seen the the recent RPG materials, but it provides at least a general sense of up to the 4th Ideal for each order, and if we take those as reliable (and to my understanding, they are Brandon-approved and canonical) these even more so cut against your idea of the 4th Oath as "accepting limits/failings/etc" - and more helpfully, give us more info to theorycraft from. I'm not sure how much you want to keep your own head-canon, and how much you want to really dig deep into the theorizing. If that sounds snarky, know that its not intended to. I just mean it genuinely - if you want to try to dig into the overall structure of Oaths and how they work, we absolutely can, but its gonna be a lot of revision to what you've put forward so far. I do think its interesting to think about the overall patterns/links across orders however. I'll put my notes in a spoiler box. Spoiler First and foremost, lets talk what we actually know about Oaths. I've compiled the below, based on the books, as well as the supplementary materials we now have. Oaths from the RPG sourcebook are italicized. Those in quotes are cases where we dont have the specific words, or there are no specific words, but we have the general idea the oath is meant to embody. Spoiler WINDRUNNERS 1 Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination 2 I will protect those who cannot protect themselves 3 I will protect even those I hate… 4 I will accept that there will be those I cannot protect. 5 I will protect myself, so that I may continue to protect others. SKYBREAKERS 1 Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination 2 Ideal of Justice. “I.e. I will seek justice and let it guide me,, until I find a more perfect ideal.” 3 Ideal of Dedication (submit to an external authority) 4 Ideal of Crusade (Personal Quest) 5 “I am the Law” DUSTBRINGERS 1 Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination 2 To control my power, I will control myself 3 To understand my power, I will understand what power is 4 “With great power, comes great responsibility (and great consequences)” 5 EDGEDANCER 1 Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination 2 I will remember those who have been forgotten 3 I will listen to those who have been ignored 4 “From passive to active advocacy – i.e. I will use my voice to speak for those who cannot” 5 TRUTHWATCHERS 1 Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination 2 I will seek truth, wherever it is hidden 3 I will reveal truth to all who seek it 4 “There is a cost to truth – and I will pay it” 5 LIGHTWEAVERS 1 Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination 2 “I will speak truths” (Lightweavers progress by acknowledging truths about themselves) 3 4 5 ELSECALLER 1 Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination 2 “I will reach my potential” (Like Lightweavers, Elsecallers have no specific oaths - they instead set and work towards personal goals of self-improvement) 3 4 5 WILLSHAPER 1 Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination 2 I will seek freedom for those in bondage 3 I will fight oppression in all its forms (i.e. from within, against the leaders I serve, etc.”) 4 “I will work to bring lasting, true freedom” (I.e. having a meaningful impact is not about one moment, its about ensuring you help others to achieve something lasting - this seems to heavily tie into the philosophical idea of positive vs negative freedoms) 5 STONEWARDS 1 Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination 2 I will step forward when others fall back. 3 I will be the foundation on which others can build. 4 “While I may put others needs before my own interests, I will not deny my own needs” (the book emphasizes the importance of understanding needs and interests, and acknowledging ones own needs) 5 BONDSMITHS 1 Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination 2 I will unite, not divide. 3 I will take responsibility for what I have done. If I must fall, I will rise again, a better man. 4 5 These are the Oaths we now know. Most don't quite do the "acknowledging of limits", though some do. Instead, I'd argue that if you're looking for a common theme to the 4th Ideals, its more about putting things into practice. For many, this is about failure or limits - Windrunners is the obvious one, though I would argue Stonewards is kind of similar (recognizing that even a selfless order cannot fully abnegate their self). Some of the others though are something a bit different. Edgedancers, for example, are saying "great, you've listened - but listening on its own isnt enough. The next step is to do something about what you've heard". Dustbringers have studied power, and their 4th Ideal is the Spider-Man ideal - thinking about what to do with the power they have, and the costs for failing to use their power wisely. Willshapers are asked to take a more mature look at their Oaths and their actions - not just to "free" people, but to work towards not only a "negative" freedom, but a "positive" one (you can google Positive vs Negative freedom if you aren't familiar with this). Truthwatchers have focused on finding and sharing truth - the 4th Ideal involves understanding and accepting that this will come at a cost, but is still worth doing. Across the board, these are a maturity of the prior oaths. 2nd and 3rd ideal tend to be about values, but the 4th ideal seems to generally start to be about combining those values with practical wisdom and experience. It makes sense that many Radiants never reached the 4th Ideal, as they are the kind of things you pick up from experience. The Skybreakers are obviously unique, but arguably even they are not that different from this. The 2nd and 3rd Ideals are a commitment to Justice, and the 4th Ideal is then about putting this into practice through the Ideal of Crusade - taking your values, and bringing them to the world to make a tangible difference through action, not that dissimilar to the Edgedancer Ideal. Where does that leave us? I actually think farther from your sense of the 5th ideal as being molded to an identity, and closer to where you saw most of the 4th Ideals. Lets think about the two 5th Ideals we know - Windrunners and Skybreakers. Kaladin's 5th Oath is somewhat similar to his 4th. Its an Oath that aims to "bring the self back in" to what has up until now been an extremely selfless order. Yes, you commit to protecting others, and you acknowledge what that looks like in practice. But here, he finally has to learn that the self matters to. You cannot just be a protection machine, you are a person, and any good that you can do depends on treating yourself with care. On its own, this isn't the most helpful. But I think Szeth's oaths give us more to work with. I think this is a widely misinterpreted oath, and it ties into what we know about the modern warping of the order vs what it used to be (an order protecting the downtrodden from unjust laws, even!). I specifically think about Nale's conversation with Szeth in Chapter 106 of Oathbringer, where Szeth basically points out the bizarre contradictions in Nale's enforcement of the Law, and Nale's response is to say that the 5th Ideal explains his lack of impartiality. Accordingly, the 5th Ideal of "I am the Law" is not just a Judge Dredd reference (sorry, lol), nor is it the idea of "I bring the law and am always right". Its the idea that "I am the law - and my own judgement is all there ultimately is". This is the point where a Skybreaker has to stop depending on codes and guidance and become able to trust to themselves to determine right and wrong. Its Szeth after the Oathstone - realizing that you can never be an impartial avatar of justice. I think the 5th Ideal in general is a further maturity that involves at least a partial negation of what has come before. In many ways, all the earlier oaths are very Kantian, especially the 2nd and 3rd, but I suspect that the 5th Ideal in general is meant to move towards being a fully actualized individual. There's an intentional difference here that may be about earlier Oaths being more of Honor, while later Oaths are more of Cultivation. And when we think of the state of Honor at the end of Stormlight 5, and Dalinar's hopes that the Shard could learn there is value in more than just following oaths, I think this fits. "Keeping an oath is not an ultimate good. It is only as good as the Ideals sworn to." (again, this feels like an obvious statement that morality is not Kantian). The 5th Oath is the scaffolding falling away, at least in part, and again is a part of why we know that so few Radiants ever reached it. It means understanding and living in the complexity of the world. I'm not sure exactly how that might look for some of the other orders, but I personally suspect that is a better place to start thinking about these ideals. Edited April 7 by WeLoveMoash 3
PanLin they/he Posted April 8 Author Posted April 8 (edited) Not me finally giving in and buying the RPG and world guide instead of relying on the Coppermind (I'll probably play a game soon anyway, so it was only a matter of time). On 4/7/2026 at 8:42 AM, Mist. said: This would make sense, but the power would seek outlets naturally using the pre-established system(like feruchemy being established without direct shared involvement) Side note, but I believe that's exactly what happened to create Ashyn's disease magic—a natural expression of both Cultivation's and Odium's influence, similar to feruchemy, and powered by something I'm referring to in my notes as Blightlight. On 4/7/2026 at 8:42 AM, Mist. said: whether he granted it to fused or not, it would still show up in the world in some form. Odium could decide to not grant people his surge, but the surge would show up naturally, which we don’t see. I mean, part of my reasoning is that we do see it, just not as explicitly as creating a new Surge for Surgebinders, and not in a way that people in-universe (Rosharans are unreliable narrators for classifying Invested Arts) would look at it and go "oh hey, that's Odium's Surge". On 4/7/2026 at 8:42 AM, Mist. said: I don’t think this explanation is even possible, as the oathpact was sworn after the fused were created. I suppose there could be scenario where the fused were given their immortality, and then later given their surges, but that seems really weird. Investiture repels other investiture, or rather, it’s harder to invest something already invested, meaning Odium would have had to sacrifice a lot of investiture, which probably could have been used to make an equal number of new fused with the surges, to give them the surges. Either way, I don’t think this one holds water. It does, but that's exactly what happened! From the RPG: Spoiler Odium offered the singers a priceless weapon in the fight against human invaders: immortality. He created the immortal Fused, whose ability to return from death made them inexorable foes. Even before the Fused learned to command the power of Surgebinding, their presence turned the tide of the war in the singers’ favor. The humans couldn’t overcome an enemy whose most experienced generals and champions were unable to truly die.” Whether that means the Fused did technically have Surges and just didn't learn to harness them until later, or they straight up couldn't access them to start with, the timeline is: Spoiler Odium gives humans on Ashyn power that historians call Surgebinding (but Rosharan scholars call Allomancy Surgebinding, for example, so we know we can't trust that term to mean what we think it does) Everything on Ashyn goes wack from the uncontrolled power The humans move to Roshar for a new start Honor and Odium swapped Singers and humans as their 'preferred' peoples Odium creates the Fused, an army who could resurrect after being 'killed' Faced with that, Honor and the Heralds create the Oathpact, binding Odium to Braize and limiting how freely the Fused could return Over time, humanity and spren started creating Knights Radiant, and Fused started Surgebinding On 4/7/2026 at 8:42 AM, Mist. said: As for his surge being used to make the unmade, I’m not sure we know enough about the unmade. They’re basically splinters, Spren, and we haven’t seen other Spren able to use surges, so I don’t see how the unmade would be different. If the unmade were using Odiums surge, that would suggest that Spren could bond other Spren, yet we don’t ever see any hints of that being remotely possible I agree the Unmade are still a big unknown, but I don't agree with your logic here. Being able to use a Surge doesn't necessarily mean someone has to have a Nahel bond—Honorblades and Nightblood grant them, Odium granted them directly on Ashyn, and there's really nothing to say that accessing Odium's power requires the same mechanics as a formalised Invested Art created by two different Shards. On 4/7/2026 at 8:42 AM, Mist. said: I think being called Bondsmith actually does mean the same thing. We know Honor came over to Ashyn, so it’s entirely possible Ishar had access to Adhesion. Furthermore, they continued using the term when referring to that order. I don’t see why they would do that if they had different powers(unless we completely misunderstood what the term “bondsmith” refers too) I’m also skeptical of the possibility of being given a surge on Ashyn because we never get any mention of such a thing. So again, the terms Rosharans use to describe Invested Arts and the powers within them are not fully reliable. Got a WoB to confirm this point (bolded the relevant bits): Spoiler Argent In the Syl interlude in Rhythm of War, she is speaking with Dalinar about his powers and the things those powers have done in the past. And what she says is "a Bondsmith bound other Surges". First of all, what other Surges? Brandon Sanderson One potential interpretation for you on this, remember they use Surge and spren sometimes interchangeably in-world. Just making you aware of that. Argent Yeah I'm aware of that. Bound other Surges.... Argent Then the term Bondsmith. To me it seems like she's talking about Ishar and the Ashyn stuff. So would they use Bondsmith to describe him in that place? Brandon Sanderson That might be what she's talking about. I'm not guaranteeing it. Brandon Sanderson So one other thing to keep aware of in the cosmere - for instance they call "Lightweaving" any illusion-based magic working on the same fundamentals. And so you could argue - and people will use it that way in-world - that Bondsmithing is both an order [of Knights Radiant] and a power that exists outside the order. Argent And that would be maybe the power of Connection, the way Lightweaving is the power of illusion? Brandon Sanderson Yes. And for instance, there were not Elsecallers to get people between Ashyn and Roshar, but on Roshar they would explain what happened there as Elsecalling. Does that make sense? Argent I mean, as much as these things make sense, yes. JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021) Sanderson explicitly states here that someone in-universe referring to someone as a Bondsmith means they have powers associated with a Bondsmith, but doesn't necessarily mean they're actually a Bondsmith under the definition of the Kinghts Radiant. Similarly, he confirms that there weren't Elsecallers, and Ishar himself opened the portal to Roshar that was referred to as Elsecalling. Something weird, powerful and dangerous was going on with the Surges on Ashyn, and imo Sanderson has intentionally been using muddy terms and in-universe bias to obfuscate exactly how it all worked. Regardless, Ishar used Transportation, accessed Surges without a spren or Honorblade, and wasn't a Bondsmith according the proper definition. It might be possible that Ishar had access to Adhesion, but that would break canon, not just my theories, as we know Odium can't grant Adhesion (unless, of course, that was a limitation placed on him via the Oathpact). As for being granted Surges on Ashyn, we're explicitly told a few times that Odium did exactly that. From the wiki: Spoiler Odium granted powerful Surges to one of the many city-states dotting the planet, and backed it in its hegemonic expansion into an immense empire.[1] But of course, that comes with the consistent pinch of salt that Rosharans call all Invested Arts Surgebinding, and tend to blur concepts like Surges, fundamental forces, and other concepts. On 4/7/2026 at 8:42 AM, Mist. said: I’d argue that it was mostly Cultivation who had influence, Honor left for Ashyn, and when he came back, Odium came back with him, so I’d understand if it was mostly Cultivations influence, but not Honor’s. The oathpact happened after Odium came to Roshar, there still would have been time for his surge to manifest. Also, the Oathpact had nothing to do with the knights radiant, that didn’t happen till later. And the knights radiant still existed for a bit before Honor messed with it. Alright, yeah, I can see how that would change things. Shifting planets then. Now, we know that he killed Aona and Skai, and the Dor had enough time to invest the land. Now, Odium did have a smaller amount of time, but this is the closest example we’ve got. Odium still should’ve had time to have his surge manifest, especially since he was accepted by Roshar, and he was a pure tone of Roshar, despite being locked up on Braize. My understanding here was that Honor sort of abandoned the people of Roshar, but he didn't stop Investing the planet at all. There may well have been time for it to manifest—like I mentioned above, I believe that it did, just potentially not as a 'Surge' that would be recognisable as such by Rosharans, and in a more subtle way that didn't fit the nice, neat framework set up by Honor and Cultivation. And the Oathpact defined the orders and powers of the future Radiants; my point there is that, for an eleventh Surge (and therefore order) to pop up from Odium's influence, Odium would have had to rewrite the core rules of the magic system as put in place by Honor and the Oathpact. Also, I think it's important to remember that Odium never meant to Invest Roshar or stay there for any longer than he needed to. It's very possible that he did all he could to avoid his power becoming an official part of the Rosharan system until it was forced to by the Oathpact. Slight tangent, but Sel is an edge case—Odium killed the vessels, splintered the powers, and stuffed them into the cognitive realm to mix and stew and whatever else. Plus, Devotion and Dominion had already Invested Sel, so the planet and its people were already receptive to their Investiture. On 4/7/2026 at 8:42 AM, Mist. said: This was me not explaining well. I’m not talking about the oathpact, I’m talking about the original knight radiants oaths. The knights existed before Honor messed with them, so while the current system is because of his intervention, there was something before that, different oaths and all. That’s what I was talking about Alright, I can buy that, but then we have problems with defining exactly where something goes from “fair game” to “That’s Honor’s ability” Ah gotcha. Yeah, agreed, those oaths would've been up to the spren of each order, which were inspired by the powers and ideals of each Herald, and further moulded by the perceptions of everyone on Roshar as to what those heralds, orders and powers represent. No matter which way you cut it, the Intent of the oaths comes (whether directly or indirectly) from Honor, and the progression system of them from Cultivation. And yes, I fully agree on the problems pretty standard fare for the Cosmere though—difficulty defining things and understanding their realmatic workings has been a constant since we were told as a Fact that there are only 10 allomantic metals. Relevant WoB: Spoiler Argent Spren grant control over Surges because Surges are perceived as fundamental powers on Roshar. Would other Cognitive beings grant different powers based on what they perceive to be fundamental? Such as electromagnetism is on Earth? Brandon Sanderson It is plausible, although this was set up in a specific way. Argent By Honor or Adonalsium? Brandon Sanderson RAFO on that. Set up might be the wrong word. There were seeds that caused this to happen the way it did. Argent The Surgebinding thing? Brandon Sanderson Yes, specifically... Those influenced what people perceived as fundamental forces. JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018) On 4/7/2026 at 8:42 AM, Mist. said: That was kinda the point I was making. Because fallible beings are deciding what oaths you can and cannot swear, they can mess up and accept an oath like this. Either on accident, or because you convinced them to(I don’t know if they could make you deswear? an oath) Yeah, sure. I would imagine that, with all radiant spren being of Honor and Cultivation, there would be part of their nature/Intent that makes them incapable of accepting wildly antithetical oaths. I don't know that for a fact though, and they are for sure fallible. That doesn't change the idea that there might be an underlying pattern to what the oaths should represent across orders. 20 hours ago, WeLoveMoash said: In general, I think there's lots of good stuff here - like, some really interesting points especially about the Honor/Cultivation relationship with the Oaths. Thanks! I've been hooked on that idea ever since I learned that Honor alone created the Heralds. This is also the bit I'm more intersested in tbh. 20 hours ago, WeLoveMoash said: More than anything, I think we still just don't have all the info we would need to make a strong guess about anything Oh for sure, this is wildly speculative—I just really felt like there was an underlying pattern to what we do know and wanted to explore it. 20 hours ago, WeLoveMoash said: The big issue is the 4th Ideal as "accepting limits" and 5th Ideal as connecting to the identity. I already think that you've made a big leap here, based on the info from the books. Your framework and written ideals dont even hold for what we know of the Skybreakers - who have the 4th Ideal be the Ideal of Crusade (and I'd argue their 5th Ideal is maybe being misunderstood as well). I don't know if you've seen the the recent RPG materials, but it provides at least a general sense of up to the 4th Ideal for each order, and if we take those as reliable (and to my understanding, they are Brandon-approved and canonical) these even more so cut against your idea of the 4th Oath as "accepting limits/failings/etc" - and more helpfully, give us more info to theorycraft from. So I've been relying on the Coppermind's examples until now, but I did go and finally buy the RPG (before I saw you'd pasted the oaths below thanks anyway!). I spoke about Skybreaker quests specifically, and I was trying to unify how those quests fit with the themes of the oaths in other orders. The extra context you've given me has shifted my mind slightly, but not enough to abandon my theory—I still think the third ideal being some sort of internal shift and realignment toward the true sense of the order (instead of one's personal beliefs) holds for the Ideal of Dedication. As for the fourth ideal, with the extra ideals from the RPG, I think I missed the mark by making them too introspective and similar to the Windrunner ideal (although I had tried to liken it to the Crusade too as a practical lesson to learn). I now think it's something more about taking the philosphy of the order and applying it to the world in a more active and impactful way (Edgedancers go from remembering to telling, Skybreakers embark on a Crusade, Willshapers go from freeing individuals to creating a system that ensures freedom, etc). 20 hours ago, WeLoveMoash said: I'm not sure how much you want to keep your own head-canon, and how much you want to really dig deep into the theorizing. If that sounds snarky, know that its not intended to. I just mean it genuinely - if you want to try to dig into the overall structure of Oaths and how they work, we absolutely can, but its gonna be a lot of revision to what you've put forward so far. I do think its interesting to think about the overall patterns/links across orders however. I'll put my notes in a spoiler box. Not snarky at all! I want to be challenged like this, I love it. If there's in-text evidence that genuinely goes against my head-canon, I'll happily modify/update/discard. This post is already super long, so I'll similarly put my responses to you in a spoiler. Spoiler 20 hours ago, WeLoveMoash said: Instead, I'd argue that if you're looking for a common theme to the 4th Ideals, its more about putting things into practice. Ha amazing, I wrote my above point on this before seeing this. Yeah, I fully agree with what you've said in this paragraph, and I've already started updating my personal notes to match. Feels like a much closer and more satisfying fit. 20 hours ago, WeLoveMoash said: This is the point where a Skybreaker has to stop depending on codes and guidance and become able to trust to themselves to determine right and wrong. Its Szeth after the Oathstone - realizing that you can never be an impartial avatar of justice. Yep, agreed again. Interestingly, it almost seems like a contradiction of the oaths and ideals they've been following up until that point, something that Kaladin's doesn't really share. If there's a pattern, it has to be more general than either "I am what my order represents" or "I will apply my order's teachings to myself too". 20 hours ago, WeLoveMoash said: I think the 5th Ideal in general is a further maturity that involves at least a partial negation of what has come before. Yeah for sure. I do think that part of my suggested fifth Ideal still applies here—the mature sense of true understanding and embodiment as your internal sense of self and purpose is fully aligned with the order. I did toy with the idea of self-actualisation being something to do with the fifth ideal, but tried to stay away from it as I was trying to look at the orders as purpose-first, self-improvement-second. Obviously Investiture and other realmatic influence comes to those with cracks in the Spiritweb more easily, so I kind of categorised the self-improvement as a natural result of taking people with issues and pumping them full of divine energy and a sense of purpose. On reflection, I may have limited my thinking unnecessarily in doing that. 20 hours ago, WeLoveMoash said: There's an intentional difference here that may be about earlier Oaths being more of Honor, while later Oaths are more of Cultivation. And when we think of the state of Honor at the end of Stormlight 5, and Dalinar's hopes that the Shard could learn there is value in more than just following oaths, I think this fits. "Keeping an oath is not an ultimate good. It is only as good as the Ideals sworn to." (again, this feels like an obvious statement that morality is not Kantian). The 5th Oath is the scaffolding falling away, at least in part, and again is a part of why we know that so few Radiants ever reached it. It means understanding and living in the complexity of the world. I'm not sure exactly how that might look for some of the other orders, but I personally suspect that is a better place to start thinking about these ideals. This is all super interesting to think about, thanks. The conversations between Dalinar and Stormfather/Honor are super rich with Kantian discussion. Cultivation's influence being heavier in later oaths also fits the idea that the concept of the Knights Radiant came from Honor (via the Oathpact and the spren), but the development and progression of them came from Cultivation. I do still think, knowing Cultivation, that part of the purpose of training radiants to aim for the fifth Ideal is something that only Cultivation knows, some sort of 'greater purpose'. Not everyone that gets a blessing from Cultivation necessarily becomes a 'better' person (no objective morality and all that jazz), but they do become better able to embody their core ideals and enact their will upon the world. Certainly sounds like self-actualisation to me. It almost feels like the fifth ideal is a sort of Ascension-lite. A fifth-level Radiant is someone who truly understands both themselves and the purpose of their order, fully believes in that purpose, and has the divine power to see it enacted. Defo going to take your points away and rethink my themes, thanks! Edited April 8 by PanLin
Jult Posted April 8 Posted April 8 On 4/7/2026 at 3:42 AM, Mist. said: If the unmade were using Odiums surge, that would suggest that Spren could bond other Spren, yet we don’t ever see any hints of that being remotely possible Minor point: Brandon has said this is possible. But probably not something he'd ever do in the books: Quote Kolby Bradshaw Could a spren bond another spren? Brandon Sanderson Theoretically possible, probably not a direction I'm ever going to go in the books for inception/recursive sort of weirdness reasons, but theoretically possible. YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021) Which may be even more in your favor. I don't think Brandon would have said he'd never include it if it is what the Unmade are doing. Though I'm not certain that Panlin was implying the Unmade were bonded to anything. 3 minutes ago, PanLin said: Not me finally giving in and buying the RPG and world guide instead of relying on the Coppermind (I'll probably play a game soon anyway, so it was only a matter of time). One of us! One of us! 3
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