PanLin they/he Posted February 25 Posted February 25 (edited) Getting real speculative with this one. tl;dr: There are only 8 Surges in the Cosmere. Honor adopted and limited those powers, adding his own and Cultivation's, to create the Rosharan 10-Surge system. I posited here the theory that the four Dawnshards are expressions of the two core spiritual aspects that repeatedly come up in the Cosmere: Identity and Connection. Spoiler Exist: Increase Identity Reduce: Decrease Identity Merge: Increase Connection Change: Decrease Connection Note: Since originally making this post, I've actually moved away from the push/pull thinking in that post and toward a more nebulous, perception-influenced version (forum topic here). I've also moved Honor to Merge, and Virtuosity to Exist (it's a wonder what leaving a project alone for a bit does for your mental clarity). Anyway, the core thing is that I really strongly believe that everything in the Cosmere can essentially be expressed as a double Identity/Connection vector. Some more bits that led to this theory: Cosmere Surges are different (but related) to Rosharan Surges: Sanderson has referred to 'base Cosmere Surges', and implied that certain feats possible with those are not possible with Rosharan Surges Lightweaving and Cohesion aren't the only powers with Yolish counterparts People on Yolen had access to a power (or Surge) called Microkinesis, which can be considered a counterpart of Cohesion. Microkinesis was stronger, but Cohesion grants a stronger Connection with the matter being worked (due to it being filtered through Honor) Honor/Tanavast intentionally changed on how humans could access Surges: Honor put limits on the Surges to avoid a repeat of what happened on Ashyn and limit other dangers like savantism Rosharan Surges are filtered through Honor and Cultivation, which colours exactly how they work Cosmere Surges are powerful forces that can directly affect fundamental laws: Surges were inspired by the fundamental forces: Strong Nuclear, Weak Nuclear, Electromagnetism, and Gravity Atom splitting may be something possible with an Invested power, but it isn't Division Heralds are of Honor; Knights Radiant are of both Honor and Cultivation (and Ishar): Honor created the Oathpact and the Heralds first; Radiant spren and Knights Radiant came later with Cultivation's help and Ishar's advice What we 'know' of the Surges is heavily subject to missing info and unreliable narrators: Rosharans consider all Invested Arts to be Surgebinding as they're just different ways of controlling the fundamental forces of the Cosmere Shards are capable of messing with natural laws and the expression of their invested art in order to achieve a particular goal There's also this WoB on Adhesion not existing on Yolen Ashyn (whoops, I goofed but the point still holds). I interpret this as the power itself existing, just not in a way that would've caused it to be categorised alongside the other Yolish Surges. It would be like having 'cat' as an item in a list next to mammal, reptile, etc. Spoiler LettersWords The Fused only use nine of the Surges (they don't use Adhesion), and Raboniel describes Adhesion as "not a true Surge." Does this mean, in its original form on Ashyn, Surgebinding had no equivalent to Adhesion, and it was created by Honor later? Brandon Sanderson That is a valid way of theorizing, and I would encourage you to go that direction. Raboniel is biased. So take those two sentences as separate things. Do be aware she is very, very biased, but also your theorizing could bear fruit going that direction. YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022) The other big thing that stuck out is that some Surges are bidirectional (Abrasion can increase or decrease friction) while some are unidirectional (Adhesion sticks, but doesn't separate). Either the powers were limited and some are more 'complete', or some of them weren't on the same level as the others to start with. Why not both? My theory here is that there are actually 8 bidirectional Cosmere-wide Surges. Honor saw what unrestricted access to these did on Ashyn, so used them as a template for his Heralds, but limited the scope of them as a protective measure. Microkinesis (Cohesion): The Surge of Structural Configuration Topokinesis (Transportation): The Surge of Spatial/Realmatic Translation Morphokinesis (Transformation): The Surge of State Change Photokinesis (Illumination): The Surge of Electromagnetic Radiation Autokinesis (Abrasion): The Surge of Contact Mechanics Horikinesis (Division): The Surge of Strain Thresholds Macrokinesis (Gravitation): The Surge of Relational Configuration Dynamokinesis (Tension): The Surge of Tensile Stress He then added Adhesion (his own application of Dynamokinesis) and Progression (Cultivation's application of Photokinesis) to create a full set of 10 powers and orders, defined and bound by his and Cultivation's placement in them. In the Double Eye of the Almighty, Bondsmith and Truthwatcher sit separate from the other orders, which are arranged in a circle. Tension and Adhesion sit at the top, and Illumination and Progression at the bottom. I propose that Adhesion is an Honor-coloured expression of Tension, and Progression is a Cultivation-coloured expression of Illumination (ie: energy transfer). Spoiler If we remove Bondsmiths, Truthwatchers, Adhesion and Progression, we're left with a perfectly symmetrical ring of only 8 orders of Knights Radiant, with Windrunners having access to Tension instead of Adhesion, and Edgedancers having access to Illumination instead of Progression: Spoiler Yolish Rosharan Radiant 1 Radiant 2 Microkinesis Cohesion Willshaper Stoneward Topokinesis Transportation Elsecaller Willshaper Morphokinesis Transformation Lightweaver Elsecaller Photokinesis Illumination Edgedancer Lightweaver Autokinesis Abrasion Dustbringer Edgedancer Horikinesis Division Skybreaker Dustbringer Macrokinesis Gravitation Windrunner Skybreaker Dynamokinesis Tension Stoneward Windrunner Here's the full table mapping Identity/Connection to each Yolish and Rosharan Surge, with Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers included. I've also mapped each fundamental force, but it's not necessarily a 1:1 relationship: Spoiler Axis Force Summary Governs Yolish Rosharan Identity Strong nuclear what it is internal configuration, plastic deformation, structural continuity Microkinesis Cohesion Connection Gravity where it is spatial translation, wormholes, realm traversal Topokinesis Transportation Identity Strong nuclear what it becomes transmutation, state change, energy / matter / investiture conversion Morphokinesis Transformation Connection EM what it transmits EM radiation, information transfer, energy transfer Photokinesis Illumination Identity Progression Connection EM how it touches contact mechanics, surface tension, friction coefficients Autokinesis Abrasion Identity Weak nuclear how it breaks strain threshold, fracture mechanics, brittleness / ductility Horikinesis Division Connection Gravity what it's pulled to mass attraction, orbital dynamics, spacetime manipulation Macrokinesis Gravitation Identity Weak nuclear how it stresses tensile stress, surface tension, mechanical strain Dynamokinesis Tension Connection Adhesion Edited yesterday at 10:38 AM by PanLin cleaned up the evidence section 8
Frustration Posted February 25 Posted February 25 Very interesting, I like the amount of effort you put into this. I'm also happy someone else is trying for a Unified Investiture Theory. Though I have to ask how Fortune fits into this. 50 minutes ago, PanLin said: There's also this WoB on Adhesion not existing on Yolen. I interpret this as the power itself existing, just not in a way that would've caused it to be categorised alongside the other Yolish Surges. It would be like having 'cat' as an item in a list next to mammal, reptile, etc. Reveal hidden contents LettersWords The Fused only use nine of the Surges (they don't use Adhesion), and Raboniel describes Adhesion as "not a true Surge." Does this mean, in its original form on Ashyn, Surgebinding had no equivalent to Adhesion, and it was created by Honor later? Brandon Sanderson That is a valid way of theorizing, and I would encourage you to go that direction. Raboniel is biased. So take those two sentences as separate things. Do be aware she is very, very biased, but also your theorizing could bear fruit going that direction. YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022) That WoB is talking about surgebinding on Ashyn, not Yolen. While I do think in general there is a lot going on here, and that Adhesion and Progression have perhaps been polarized by the presence of Honor and Cultivation, there are a few things to consider. Ishar followed Odium on Ashyn It was through the powers of a Bondsmith that humanity was able to cross the worlds and make it to Roshar It's not confirmed, but heavily implied that Ishar was both a Bondsmith and an Elsecaller on Ashyn, or at least had powers similar enough we could call him that. Spoiler Argent In the Syl interlude in Rhythm of War, she is speaking with Dalinar about his powers and the things those powers have done in the past. And what she says is "a Bondsmith bound other Surges". First of all, what other Surges? Brandon Sanderson One potential interpretation for you on this, remember they use Surge and spren sometimes interchangeably in-world. Just making you aware of that. Argent Yeah I'm aware of that. Bound other Surges.... Brandon Sanderson That might be what she's talking about. I'm not guaranteeing it. Argent Then the term Bondsmith. To me it seems like she's talking about Ishar and the Ashyn stuff. So would they use Bondsmith to describe him in that place? Brandon Sanderson So one other thing to keep aware of in the cosmere - for instance they call "Lightweaving" any illusion-based magic working on the same fundamentals. And so you could argue - and people will use it that way in-world - that Bondsmithing is both an order [of Knights Radiant] and a power that exists outside the order. Argent And that would be maybe the power of Connection, the way Lightweaving is the power of illusion? Brandon Sanderson Yes. And for instance, there were not Elsecallers to get people between Ashyn and Roshar, but on Roshar they would explain what happened there as Elsecalling. Does that make sense? Argent I mean, as much as these things make sense, yes. JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021) Questioner At the end of Rhythm of War, we see Shard-induced time dilation; you bring a lot of Investiture into a place, and it slows down time. Brandon Sanderson It can also speed it up. Questioner How much Investiture would it take to dilate an area so that one area moves forward about fifteen years into the future while everything else remains? Like, they have ten minutes, everyone else goes fifteen years? Brandon Sanderson There’s a couple variables here. Number one is the length of the area, and how fast that fifteen years passes. If we want us to jump forward fifteen years, in how much time? Fifteen years compared to one year? Fifteen years compared to one minute? Fifteen years compared to one second? These are all different things. And, of course, the more you’re compressing and the larger the area, the more Investiture you’re requiring. Questioner Could two unchained Bondsmiths in the course of a duel do it? Brandon Sanderson Fifteen years? Fifteen years is gonna be a stretch for what they can get a hold of, but it depends. Unchained Bondsmith, unchained to (for instance) a deity that there is no longer a Vessel controlling that power in the way that it needs to have the limits on it is going to be able to access more than one where there was some Vessel there saying “no.” So there’s one factor in it. A Bondsmith can access a lot of power, as evidenced by the migration. The migration from Ashyn to Roshar happened with a Bondsmith powering some Elsecalling. And that allowed for some pretty crazy things. Getting an entire population moved through a portal across that much space is a lot of work and a lot of energy. So what you’re asking, I think that’s stretching. Depends, again, on how long. Fifteen to one, not so hard. Fifteen years in a second is really hard and probably beyond what they have capacity to do. I see what you’re doing there. You saw me talk around it. Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022) That would lead us to the conclusion that Odium can make Bondsmiths, or at least something close thereto. 1 hour ago, PanLin said: My theory here is that there are actually 8 bidirectional Cosmere-wide Surges. Honor saw what unrestricted access to these did on Ashyn, so used them as a template for his Heralds, but limited the scope of them as a protective measure. Microkinesis (Cohesion): The Surge of Structural Configuration Topokinesis (Transportation): The Surge of Spatial/Realmatic Translation Morphokinesis (Transformation): The Surge of State Change Photokinesis (Illumination): The Surge of Electromagnetic Radiation Autokinesis (Abrasion): The Surge of Contact Mechanics Horikinesis (Division): The Surge of Strain Thresholds Macrokinesis (Gravitation): The Surge of Relational Configuration Dynamokinesis (Tension): The Surge of Tensile Stress I know these names are just useful tool for showing a difference, but Lightweaving was called Lightweaving on Yollen. Additionally, I'm not sure how much I would say that surges are universal so much as they function of of the same fundamentals as on Roshar that's how they chose to classify them. If they do operate on the whole cosmere this way then there should be ten surges Spoiler Questioner At the end of Rhythm of War, we see Shard-induced time dilation; you bring a lot of Investiture into a place, and it slows down time. Brandon Sanderson It can also speed it up. Questioner How much Investiture would it take to dilate an area so that one area moves forward about fifteen years into the future while everything else remains? Like, they have ten minutes, everyone else goes fifteen years? Brandon Sanderson There’s a couple variables here. Number one is the length of the area, and how fast that fifteen years passes. If we want us to jump forward fifteen years, in how much time? Fifteen years compared to one year? Fifteen years compared to one minute? Fifteen years compared to one second? These are all different things. And, of course, the more you’re compressing and the larger the area, the more Investiture you’re requiring. Questioner Could two unchained Bondsmiths in the course of a duel do it? Brandon Sanderson Fifteen years? Fifteen years is gonna be a stretch for what they can get a hold of, but it depends. Unchained Bondsmith, unchained to (for instance) a deity that there is no longer a Vessel controlling that power in the way that it needs to have the limits on it is going to be able to access more than one where there was some Vessel there saying “no.” So there’s one factor in it. A Bondsmith can access a lot of power, as evidenced by the migration. The migration from Ashyn to Roshar happened with a Bondsmith powering some Elsecalling. And that allowed for some pretty crazy things. Getting an entire population moved through a portal across that much space is a lot of work and a lot of energy. So what you’re asking, I think that’s stretching. Depends, again, on how long. Fifteen to one, not so hard. Fifteen years in a second is really hard and probably beyond what they have capacity to do. I see what you’re doing there. You saw me talk around it. Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)
Verdance he/him Posted February 25 Posted February 25 (edited) Wait. I was really really reluctant, i have tried sorting the shards based on the dawnshards, operating under existing, change, feel, and something else, and the idea that 4x4 was sixteen so if you combine one Dawnshard with another you would get the intent of a shard (feel and feel would make Odium, exist and exist would make Preservation, there was more but I forget) I saw a video from the YouTube channel Lightcallers about that theory, and it had me convinced for a while, but your theories are very solid. I’ll definitely consider them further. Edited February 25 by Verdance
Schizoposting Posted February 25 Posted February 25 If this is the case, then why is Odium capable of creating Fused with the surge of progression, but not adhesion? You might argue that it's because Odium and Honor are diametrically opposed, but RoW (and WaT) show that this is demonstrably false—on the contrary, they attract. This is not to mention the numeric significance of 9 and 10 on Braize and Roshar respectively, which the number 8 lacks. Ultimately, I think that you're overthinking it—the reason why surges are the way they are, is because Brandon thought that it'd be cool; not because it's expression of a Cosmere theory of everything.
PanLin they/he Posted February 25 Author Posted February 25 (edited) 18 hours ago, Frustration said: Very interesting, I like the amount of effort you put into this. I'm also happy someone else is trying for a Unified Investiture Theory. Thanks! I really am, though sometimes I fear that leads me to making obtuse logical jumps in favour of fitting patterns. 18 hours ago, Frustration said: Though I have to ask how Fortune fits into this. So I actually keep flip-flopping on this. I tried placing Fortune as Connection's opposite (with Entropy, the odd one out among the three, as Identity's), and it kind of fits, especially with the Shards I have grouped there (Reason, Valor, Invention, Autonomy), but no matter how I look at it, it just doesn't feel as fundamental as Identity and Connection are. There's Investiture, too, which I'm currently treating as essentially force of Identity (and maybe Connection). I think I've landed on regarding Fortune as Temporal Connection; ie: using the timelessness of the Spiritual Realm to instinctively guide oneself. 18 hours ago, Frustration said: That WoB is talking about surgebinding on Ashyn, not Yolen. Ah dangit, I really thought I'd proofread well enough! Still, I think my point stands. If Honor was inspired by Yolish Surges, it's reasonable to assume Odium was too. 18 hours ago, Frustration said: While I do think in general there is a lot going on here, and that Adhesion and Progression have perhaps been polarized by the presence of Honor and Cultivation, there are a few things to consider. Ishar followed Odium on Ashyn It was through the powers of a Bondsmith that humanity was able to cross the worlds and make it to Roshar It's not confirmed, but heavily implied that Ishar was both a Bondsmith and an Elsecaller on Ashyn, or at least had powers similar enough we could call him that. Bolded the (imo) important bit. Similarly, Rosharans call Metalborn Surgebinders. Having access to powers similar to what we would recognise as Cohesion/Adhesion and Transportation is not technically the same as being a Bondsmith or Elsecaller, in the same way that (spoilers for Emberdark): Spoiler Dusk isn't a Bronze Allomancer, but could be likened to one. Ishar's Elsecalling is definitely recognisable as the Rosharan Transportation Surge, but I think his pre-Honor Bondsmith abilities were an expression of Cohesion. From the wob you quoted: Spoiler The migration from Ashyn to Roshar happened with a Bondsmith powering some Elsecalling. And that allowed for some pretty crazy things. Getting an entire population moved through a portal across that much space is a lot of work and a lot of energy. That sounds like a perpendicularity fuelling an Elsegate. Bondsmiths do create perpendicularities, but they're also created with Elsecalling itself. Maybe with Odium's Surges, Ishar was simply able to open an Elsegate that was bound to the Spiritual Realm to keep it almost infinitely fuelled. 18 hours ago, Frustration said: I know these names are just useful tool for showing a difference, but Lightweaving was called Lightweaving on Yollen. Ah yeah I know, that was mostly just me having fun coming up with a suite of related names. 18 hours ago, Frustration said: Additionally, I'm not sure how much I would say that surges are universal so much as they function of of the same fundamentals as on Roshar that's how they chose to classify them. If they do operate on the whole cosmere this way then there should be ten surges Sorry, could you expand on this? My whole point is that there are 8 universal Surges (to map nicely to 4 Dawnshards and 16 Shards) in the Cosmere, and that Honor and Cultivation added a pair of Pseudosurges to their magic system to make 10 for the Rosharan system alone. Edited February 26 by PanLin
PanLin they/he Posted February 25 Author Posted February 25 (edited) On 2/25/2026 at 10:56 PM, Verdance said: Wait. I was really really reluctant, i have tried sorting the shards based on the dawnshards, operating under existing, change, feel, and something else, and the idea that 4x4 was sixteen so if you combine one Dawnshard with another you would get the intent of a shard (feel and feel would make Odium, exist and exist would make Preservation, there was more but I forget) I saw a video from the YouTube channel Lightcallers about that theory, and it had me convinced for a while, but your theories are very solid. I’ll definitely consider them further. Yeah I've seen a few variations of this one! They mostly don't quite scratch that itch for me. The mural Rysn saw showed Adonalsium (presumably) being split into or by the four Dawnshards, and then those four splitting again into almost (but not quite) symmetrical chunks. That reads to me as being not neat enough to work for the double Dawnshard theories, plus there's nothing to show that the first four chunks operated again on themselves. But then, maybe I'm putting too much stock in that mural Currently, I think Perception played a huge part in the Shards the Vessels ended up with. eg: Aona and Skai (along Tanavast and Koravellium) both took the Protoshard relating to the Dawnshard I've been calling Merge, but where Skai interpreted 'Increase Connection' as 'enforce Dominion to create a stable, unified country', Aona interpreted it as 'Devote to each other and to shared goals to create a unified people'. Which is to say, each Vessel's personal philosophies and Spiritweb coloured the Shards they took. Skai couldn't have chosen to be Devotion or any other expression of Merge in the same way Spook couldn't have been anything other than a Tineye when he snapped. As I say, I'm planning to do a proper post on this over the next few days. (Future edit: this now exists) On 2/25/2026 at 11:17 PM, Schizoposting said: If this is the case, then why is Odium capable of creating Fused with the surge of progression, but not adhesion? You might argue that it's because Odium and Honor are diametrically opposed, but RoW (and WaT) show that this is demonstrably false—on the contrary, they attract. This is not to mention the numeric significance of 9 and 10 on Braize and Roshar respectively, which the number 8 lacks. Ah, could be anything: Honor alone created the Rosharan Surges initially when the Heralds defined the Oathpact, making Adhesion uniquely his and therefore inaccessible to others Honor simply coloured Adhesion with so much rigidity that Odium, a Shard of emotion and manipulation and shadows, couldn't replicate it Odium as a concept is naturally closer to Cultivation than it is to Honor, making it easier to access Progression Rayse intentionally avoided using Adhesion out of spite or (but that doesn't explain Taravangian's avoidance, unless he just wasn't focused on it) Voidbinding may be extremely passionate/raw filters of the Surges, and Odium's attempts to harness Adhesion, the Surge of Pressure and Void, just resulted in the Fused immediately collapsing into a Spiritual black hole Also, 10 is related to the entire Rosharan system (which existed before the Shards arrived), and 9 is only related to Braize. Does that sound like 10 for Honor and 9 for Odium, or more like Honor (defined by rules and symmetry) adopted 10 to match the system Adonalsium had already designed, and Odium adopted 9 as a response to that 10 (whether by choice or not)? If we consider 8 bidirectional Surges to be the same as saying 8 pairs of divine expression, aka 16 (which is exactly what Preservation did with Allomancy, and we know that was an intentional homage to Adonalsium), then it fits perfectly as a universal number. And for the record, I certainly don't think Honor and Odium are diametrically opposed, and never have—on my current Shard mappings, I've placed Retribution somewhere between Cultivation and Dominion, whereas Harmony cancelled out perfectly. On 2/25/2026 at 11:17 PM, Schizoposting said: Ultimately, I think that you're overthinking it—the reason why surges are the way they are, is because Brandon thought that it'd be cool; not because it's expression of a Cosmere theory of everything. You're almost certainly correct, and I am not going to stop (but we do know that the Surges were inspired by fundamental forces, that Sanderson has a background in chemistry, and that 10 isn't an important number outside the Rosharan System) Edited April 22 by PanLin 1
Frustration Posted February 26 Posted February 26 2 hours ago, PanLin said: So I actually keep flip-flopping on this. I tried placing Fortune as Connection's opposite (with Entropy, the odd one out among the three, as Identity's), and it kind of fits, especially with the Shards I have grouped there (Reason, Valor, Invention, Autonomy), but no matter how I look at it, it just doesn't feel as fundamental as Identity and Connection are. There's Investiture, too, which I'm currently treating as essentially force of Identity (and maybe Connection). I think I've landed on regarding Fortune as Temporal Connection; ie: using the timelessness of the Spiritual Realm to instinctively guide oneself. Well the relationship between Investiture, Identity, Connection, and Fortune are so far as I can determine that Investiture is a third form to matter and energy - confirmed Connection is a force of attraction similar to gravity but for ideas Spoiler Aurimus As the two Realms, the Cognitive and the Spiritual, are, well, fictional... Are they all comprised of Investiture, completely? Brandon Sanderson Yes. No, completely? Well, here's the thing. Investiture, matter, and energy are all the same thing in the cosmere. So, just like energy and matter are the same thing here. So, yes, everything's made of Investiture, in the same way that everything's made of energy in our world. Does that make sense? Aurimus So, what about what spren are made of in the Cognitive Realm? Is that just Investiture? Brandon Sanderson So, yeah, I'll dig more into that. I'm gonna go with Investiture for now, but I could change that as I move along. What I'm kind of debating is, is there a separate Cognitive state, and I don't think so. So I'm gonna go with Investiture for now. Aurimus How about Connection? Brandon Sanderson Connection is, like, the equivalent of a quantum connection in our world, so it's more like a force than something comprised of something. The question is like, "What is gravity comprised of?" And then you start asking weird questions. Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017) 3. Identity is similar to an antigen(if you've studied biology) that says what spiritweb/investiture belongs to whom, and is a lot of what causes Investiture it interfere with itself Spoiler Argent We know that you can't Lash people in Shardplate, but can you Lash the person inside the Plate? If they had their helm off, for example. At that point Plate should be just dead weight, right? Brandon Sanderson There's a bit of an interference envelope. Wearing plate, the person has this big ball of investiture around them, and so pushing any through it--even by touching a person without a helm--is going to be tough. Easier than with the helm on though, I suppose. Investiture acts (roughly) like a saturated solution in these cases. Sticking more power into something like a Feruchemical storage or a hyper-invested object like Plate is increasingly hard. The other part is that Investiture tends to interfere with other Investiture, unless there's a familiar resonance. (This is part of what philosophers call Identity.) Slapping your hand through a sand master's stream of sand will cause interference, and make them start to drop. It's not that the sand is supporting them, it's that the investiture holding them up gets scrambled for a moment because of your own investiture. Investiture pushed toward someone inside a hyper-invested (supersaturated) system like a person in Shardplate is going to get hard push-back. This is similar to the reason that it's harder to Push on invested coins. Depends on how invested they are, in that case. It's generally not as hard as doing something like Lashing a person in plate. (This is more about the interference than the saturation of investiture.) But the two principles are what I use to guide the physics in these areas. quietandproud Can we take that as a hint that the Investiture in the Plates and the Investiture that the Surge of [Adhesion] uses come from different Shards? Or do they interfere because they "belong" to different spren? Brandon Sanderson You know, I should have realized this one would bring out the follow up questions. Let's leave it at what I posted for now. This is a deep, deep rabbit hole, and I do need to try to get some more writing done tonight. So...RAFO. (Sorry.) Stormlight Three Update #4 (Nov. 2, 2016) 4. Fortune, I honestly don't know. It's a thing and a property but what exactly it is is unclear Spoiler Chaos Odium said to Taravangian, "You did this without access to Fortune or the Spiritual Realm?" How does one access Fortune without the Spiritual Realm or Feruchemical chromium, as almost all future sight tends to utilize the Spiritual Realm in some way? Brandon Sanderson So, that line is mostly just me saying... *long pause* I think you're picking apart those things too much. Chaos Right, that makes sense. Hey, Odium said it, so I didn't know-- Gotta take that seriously, so. Brandon Sanderson So, yeah, don't read too much into picking apart those two things. You can read it as-- Honestly, that is me making sure I am being clear in the text. Chaos That there are those are two different things. Brandon Sanderson Yeah those are two different things, but they are just interrelated. Fortune is a property, and the Spiritual Realm is a place, but not a place. Do you know what I mean? To use Fortune, you're always involving the Spiritual Realm, but in the Spiritual Realm, you're not always involving Fortune. MisCon 2018 (May 26, 2018) 3 hours ago, PanLin said: Bolded the (imo) important bit. Similarly, Rosharans call Metalborn Surgebinders. Having access to powers similar to what we would recognise as Cohesion/Adhesion and Transportation is not technically the same as being a Bondsmith or Elsecaller, in the same way Dusk isn't a Bronze Allomancer but could be likened to one. Ishar's Elsecalling is definitely recognisable as the Rosharan Transportation Surge, but I think his pre-Honor Bondsmith abilities were an expression of Cohesion. From the wob you quoted: Reveal hidden contents The migration from Ashyn to Roshar happened with a Bondsmith powering some Elsecalling. And that allowed for some pretty crazy things. Getting an entire population moved through a portal across that much space is a lot of work and a lot of energy. That sounds like a perpendicularity fuelling an Elsegate. Bondsmiths do create perpendicularities, but they're also created with Elsecalling itself. Maybe with Odium's Surges, Ishar was simply able to open an Elsegate that was bound to the Spiritual Realm to keep it almost infinitely fuelled. It's more than just a perpendicularity. Ishar needed a Connection to Roshar to bridge that gap, and the songs of Roshar guided him. Ishar needed Adhesion. 3 hours ago, PanLin said: Sorry, could you expand on this? My whole point is that there are 8 universal Surges (to map nicely to 4 Dawnshards and 16 Shards) in the Cosmere, and that Honor and Cultivation added a pair of Pseudosurges to their magic system to make 10 for the Rosharan system alone. Dang it I posted the wrong WoB, and now I can't find the one I want. Shoot. Oh well, I have other WoBs that get to the same issue Spoiler Questioner The ten Surges on Roshar, I think you've said are basically a different set of laws of physics. Brandon Sanderson Yeah. Questioner Are those laws of physics consistent throughout the Cosmere? Brandon Sanderson Yes, to an extent. You would consider, like - it's kind of weird because I based them on the idea of the fundamental forces, but this is kind of like a human construction. You could say that physics is pure and natural, but we're still putting things in boxes. And the scientists on Roshar would, for instance, consider being able to travel between the Cognitive and Physical Realms as a force, the thing that pulls people back and forth between that, as a fundamental force. I don't know if it would fit our definition of a fundamental force. Calamity Austin signing (Feb. 25, 2016) Spoiler LewsTherinTelescope You've said before that, while the Ten Surges arose due to perception of what things are fundamental forces, there were "seeds" that influenced what people perceived as fundamental. Is knowledge of the Rosharan Shards and Dawnshards the "seed" referenced here? Brandon Sanderson The Shards yes, but I wouldn't say the Dawnshards were involved directly--but the Shards were influenced by the Dawnshards, so... It gets muddy. General Reddit 2021 (March 11, 2021) Spoiler Khyrindor (paraphrased) Do the Honorblades reflect the natural pairing of Surges, or did Honor decide which Surge pair to put in each Blade? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) The pairs are natural to Roshar in the same way as the metals on Scadrial. When Worlds Collide 2014 (Aug. 9, 2014)
PanLin they/he Posted February 26 Author Posted February 26 (edited) 12 hours ago, Frustration said: Investiture is a third form to matter and energy - confirmed Yep agreed, I posited above that the original Yolish version of Transformation included matter/energy/investiture conversion. 12 hours ago, Frustration said: Connection is a force of attraction similar to gravity but for ideas Hmmmm. Is it? Linking it to gravity implies inherent movement. I see it more as a relational database; a log kept in the Spritiual Realm of everyone and everything your Spiritweb has interacted with. A Connection can be strengthened naturally by spending lots of time or sharing lots of commonality with a person or thing to create more entries, and it can be diluted by spending time elsewhere, making those entries a smaller proportion. It can also be artificially added to and removed from using Investiture. The analogy doesn't hold perfectly, but my point is that I don't think it's an attractive force, but a neutral relational one. 12 hours ago, Frustration said: Identity is similar to an antigen(if you've studied biology) that says what spiritweb/investiture belongs to whom, and is a lot of what causes Investiture it interfere with itself I actually quite like this analogy, and I agree. Hemalurgic Spikes and Feruchemical Metalminds both carry Identity with them in a very similar way to antigens. So the Spiritweb itself (along with its Connections in the Spiritual Realm, memories from the Cognitive Realm and body from the Physical Realm) makes up a part of someone's little-i identity, and big-i Identity is this antigen analogue that inherently saturates the Spiritweb that can be modified, removed and manipulated. Diving into various wikis for a sec: Spoiler From Spiritual Realm: The Spiritual Realm is the realm of existence in the cosmere that contains the essence or soul of things. In this Realm, the interconnection between objects, people, and ideals are made apparent.[1] It is said to transcend form, thought, being, and self; it is merely a network of Connections between the truest form of all things. From Spiritweb: The spiritweb is the network of Connections and Investiture which make up the soul of a creature, place, object, or planet. A person's spiritweb can be damaged either through physical or emotional trauma. This creates "cracks" in the soul. It is easier for Shards to Invest in people who are damaged in this way, as Investiture can enter the soul through these "cracks". From Identity: Identity is a Spiritual attribute[1][2] within the cosmere that demarcates one being from another for the purposes of Investiture. It acts as a sort of spiritual DNA, and it functions together with Connection in order to form a link to various forms of Investiture. From Connection: Connection uses spiritwebs, and connects them in the Spiritual Realm. Connection is thought to be part of the Spiritual aspect of a being. People are generally Connected to other people or certain locations, and can be Connected to more than one place at a time.[2][3] The Spiritual Realm itself is said to be made up of Connections, and that within it, all things are Connected. From Fortune: Fortune has been described as "luck" by less cosmere-aware groups, such as the Terris three centuries after the Catacendre.[4] However, it is clear from other individuals that are more cosmere-aware that Fortune is more than simple luck. It's a way of knowing things you would not know otherwise,[5] and a way in which one can see the future.[3] It is implied that Fortune is a thing one can access[6] and draw upon. Chromium can be used by a Feruchemist to store and tap Fortune. When used Hemalurgically, it steals what people on Scadrial refer to as "destiny"[11]. ___ (and from the wob you quoted): Brandon Sanderson Yeah those are two different things, but they are just interrelated. Fortune is a property, and the Spiritual Realm is a place, but not a place. Do you know what I mean? To use Fortune, you're always involving the Spiritual Realm, but in the Spiritual Realm, you're not always involving Fortune. If attraction were involved, I'd expect some mention of orbits or movement, or certain Spiritwebs being drawn closer to each other, but we know space (as well as time) isn't really a useful concept in the Spiritual Realm. It's a realm of pure Investiture making up all the Spiritwebs (Identity) in the Cosmere and their Connections to each other, arguably the place where entities are their 'truest' selves. 12 hours ago, Frustration said: Fortune, I honestly don't know. It's a thing and a property but what exactly it is is unclear The stuff above and this view of Identity/Connection actually makes it easier to show Fortune as an expression of Connection rather than its own core thing. So Fortune is a property, but so is Investiture, and so are speed and strength and warmth and mental acuity, and none of those are on the same level as Identity and Connection. Also, in the Spiritual Realm, you're not always interacting with Fortune. That seems a weird thing to specify unless Fortune is something you have to intentionally seek out, which is different to Identity and Connection—in the Spiritual Realm, you're always interacting with those two, whether you like it or not. Connection is a broad, fundamental property in the Cosmere, so I think Fortune is just applying/viewing Connection temporally. From the Fortune wiki again: Spoiler Hoid uses the same mechanics of chromium Feruchemy--Fortune--to know where he needs to go.[5] However, his use of Fortune does not allow him to know why he needs to be in certain places.[1] We know that futuresight requires either an increased mental capacity to make sense of it (eg: Atium), or something through which to filter and parse it (eg: Glys and Renarin). We also know that viewing the future shows every possible future, and you can filter your view to the possible futures of a particular person or place. How else would you be able to do that if everything in the Cosmere weren't Connected to all of its possible futures? It sounds like Fortune is a way of accessing those futures without needing the mental capacity of a god to sort through them. It's a more instinctive way of strengthening your Connection to the futures most beneficial to you, even if you don't understand why or specifically what will happen. It's like your unconscious mind is able to tap into the Spiritual Realm and go "gosh, there's a strong sense of happiness (or pride or excitement or whatever) in all the futures that involve us being in that location next Wednesday afternoon; I don't understand the link, but let's go there and see what happens". 12 hours ago, Frustration said: It's more than just a perpendicularity. Ishar needed a Connection to Roshar to bridge that gap, and the songs of Roshar guided him. Ishar needed Adhesion. I agree with the concept, but I think your conclusion is similar to saying (spoilers for Emberdark): Spoiler 'Dusk could sense pulses of Investiture; he needed allomantic Bronze'. We don't really understand pre-Rosharan abilities well enough, and most of what we know about the Surges comes from post-Ashyn humans; they'll happily apply the label 'Surgebinding' to anything, so it tracks that they'd also use other familiar terms to describe related phenomena. 12 hours ago, Frustration said: Dang it I posted the wrong WoB, and now I can't find the one I want. Shoot. Oh well, I have other WoBs that get to the same issue That's annoying but thanks for the clarification, I get what you're saying now. Just going to grab some key bits from those last wobs: Spoiler Questioner Are those laws of physics consistent throughout the Cosmere? Brandon Sanderson Yes, to an extent. ___ You've said before that, while the Ten Surges arose due to perception of what things are fundamental forces, there were "seeds" that influenced what people perceived as fundamental. Is knowledge of the Rosharan Shards and Dawnshards the "seed" referenced here? Brandon Sanderson The Shards yes, but I wouldn't say the Dawnshards were involved directly--but the Shards were influenced by the Dawnshards, so... It gets muddy. ___ The pairs are natural to Roshar in the same way as the metals on Scadrial. In all of these examples, the Surges that arose on Roshar are unique to Roshar. The 'to an extent' would just be a straight up 'yes' if the whole Cosmere used the same 10 Surges. There are some core Surges across the Cosmere, somewhat influenced by Adonalsium and the Shards, that are somewhat related to the ones on Roshar '16' is an important number to Adonalsium Preservation chose 16 metals for a reason, and we've been told the Rosharan Surges are natural in the same way as those metals 10 is a number that infuses the Rosharan system, which was designed by Adonalsium themself To me, all of this practically screams that the 10 Surges on Roshar are inspired by, but not the same as, the core Surges expressed throughout the Cosmere. There are 16 Shards because that's the number divinity naturally split into (although we do know it could've been anything, but now that it's happened, '16' carries incredible perceptive weight), and it matches the 8 True Surges which can be considered as 16 push-pull pairs. H+C took those 8 and added their essences as Pseudosurges to make a nice neat 10 to harmonise with the Rosharan system (our boy Tanavast loved symmetry and uniformity), which just further increased the importance of the number '10' in the system. Edited February 26 by PanLin hid an Emberdark spoiler (thanks @Frustration!) 1
Atlas333 Posted March 2 Posted March 2 As for why there are only 9 Fused, I think it's more because Rayse didn't want to, not that he couldn't. On 2/25/2026 at 4:54 PM, PanLin said: Ah, could be anything: Honor alone created the Rosharan Surges initially when the Heralds defined the Oathpact, making Adhesion uniquely his and therefore inaccessible to others Honor simply coloured Adhesion with so much rigidity that Odium, a Shard of emotion and manipulation and shadows, couldn't replicate it Odium as a concept is naturally closer to Cultivation than it is to Honor, making it easier to access Progression Rayse intentionally avoided using Adhesion out of spite or (but that doesn't explain Taravangian's avoidance, unless he just wasn't focused on it) Voidbinding may be extremely passionate/raw filters of the Surges, and Odium's attempts to harness Adhesion, the Surge of Pressure and Void, just resulted in the Fused immediately collapsing into a Spiritual black hole I think the Fused are a result of him adapting an existing system (surgebinding) to fit his needs. An adhesion-fused would likely just be able to stick to walls like Spider-Man. This ability isn't incredibly useful when you've already got the deepest ones and heavenly ones. Avoiding it because of spite is very on-brand especially when you don't really need it. As for why Taravangian didn't create any adhesion fused- he had 10 days until the contest after picking up his shards; I imagine creating a new brand of fused with unclear tactical value was very low on his agenda. But, to make things interesting, we have this WOB about adhesion fused. Quote Lacrossedeamon Now that Odium is Retribution, does he have access to the surge of Adhesion? Will we see a tenth brand of Fused? Tenth Unmade? Brandon Sanderson He does, and yes you could see that. Lacrossedeamon Can Yelig-nar finally grant its host Adhesion? Brandon Sanderson Yes, he could. YouTube Spoiler Stream 7 (Dec. 19, 2025) The implication seems to be that Odium didn't have access to Adhesion until becoming Retribution; however, this could still align with the spite motive discussed earlier. Odium now views Honor as an ally; therefore, his surge is no longer an "enemy surge."
PanLin they/he Posted March 2 Author Posted March 2 43 minutes ago, Atlas333 said: As for why there are only 9 Fused, I think it's more because Rayse didn't want to, not that he couldn't. Yeah, this is genuinely the explanation I'm leaning toward the most. We know Rayse was predictably spiteful and impulsive; that's why Hoid is so much more worried about Taravangian as a vessel than he was about Rayse. 44 minutes ago, Atlas333 said: The implication seems to be that Odium didn't have access to Adhesion until becoming Retribution; however, this could still align with the spite motive discussed earlier. Odium now views Honor as an ally; therefore, his surge is no longer an "enemy surge." Yep, agreed! Rayse didn't use Adhesion because he hated everything that Honor and Tanavast represented, and couldn't bear the blow to his ego that would come from using Honor's Truest Surge. And from one of the WoB's I quoted at the start: Spoiler LettersWords The Fused only use nine of the Surges (they don't use Adhesion), and Raboniel describes Adhesion as "not a true Surge." Does this mean, in its original form on Ashyn, Surgebinding had no equivalent to Adhesion, and it was created by Honor later? Brandon Sanderson That is a valid way of theorizing, and I would encourage you to go that direction. Raboniel is biased. So take those two sentences as separate things. Do be aware she is very, very biased, but also your theorizing could bear fruit going that direction. YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022) It would be very on-brand for Rayse to spread propaganda (or just constantly trash-talk) on Honor and his signature ability. Taravangian, however, is cold, calculating, and has no reason to hate Honor as it's now part of him. 48 minutes ago, Atlas333 said: As for why Taravangian didn't create any adhesion fused- he had 10 days until the contest after picking up his shards; I imagine creating a new brand of fused with unclear tactical value was very low on his agenda. Mayyybe, but the guy had the ability to make Gav experience 20 years in the space of an hour. I don't think Shards are beholden to the same time limits as we are. But yeah, still likely wasn't high on his agenda, and now all of Roshar is trapped in a time bubble, and I don't know what affect that'll have on the ability of other Shards to come and interfere with him. But yeah maybe, with Warlight, we'll see both Adhesion Fused (with accompanying Voidspren) and a tenth Unmade (or maybe creating Unmade was something specific to Rayse, or something that the power of Honor would oppose too much). Spoiler Lacrossedeamon Now that Odium is Retribution, does he have access to the surge of Adhesion? Will we see a tenth brand of Fused? Tenth Unmade? Brandon Sanderson He does, and yes you could see that. Lacrossedeamon Can Yelig-nar finally grant its host Adhesion? Brandon Sanderson Yes, he could. YouTube Spoiler Stream 7 (Dec. 19, 2025) So this can be read one of two ways: Adhesion actually was just unavailable to Odium/Voidlight (and we're both completely wrong) but is available to Retribution Rayse actively blocked his access to Adhesion, same as everyone else under his command, and Taravangian holds no such grudge 54 minutes ago, Atlas333 said: I think the Fused are a result of him adapting an existing system (surgebinding) to fit his needs I actually disagree with this one. We know humans on Ashyn were given access to the Surges by Odium. Based on my theory above, I think Odium granted the original 8 Surges to humans (no Adhesion or Progression). Then, after everything went down with humanity's arrival on Roshar, Odium switching to favour the Singers, and the creation of the Heralds and the Oathpact, he started granting powers in a different way, inspired by the Knights Radiant. He incorporated Progression but refused to use Adhesion out of a mixture of pride and spite. 1
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