PanLin they/he Posted March 8 Posted March 8 (edited) tl;dr: I theorise that the Dawnshards represent the Commands one can take relating to the core axes of the Cosmere, Identity and Connection: Exist increases Identity Reduce decreases Identity Merge increases Connection Change decreases Connection The Shards are imperfect expressions of divinity that took the shape they did specifically because of the individual vessels who took them up. Each Dawnshard created a quarter of Adonalsium that represented that Dawnshard's Command, and four people each took part of that quarter, influencing it with their own perception of what that Command means. Spoiler The first letters of them also spell CREM, which is mostly just for my amusement and as a reference to the CRUD operations I've seen lots of people liken the Dawnshards to. This means the Shards can be expressed as vectors on a plane made of two axes, Identity and Connection, as follows (where a larger bubble means a more forceful expression, and a smaller bubble means a more subtle one, though I'm less focused on that distinction in this post): The evidence: This worked well in my last post. Rather than link to things in the text, I've just collated here a bunch of stuff that led me to this theory. I've linked to WoBs where possible, but some of it is from the books themselves. Cosmere mechanics: Investiture is another form of existence alongside matter and energy, not a core aspect like Identity and Connection Spiritwebs are made of Investiture in the Spiritual realm and define a person's Identity and Connection (more on Investiture and how it's a different class of concept to Connection) The nature of Shards: The 16 Shards are not essential building blocks, and could theoretically be split further Rysn's mural showed something splitting into 4, and then into 16 almost but not quite equal pieces Shards are filtered expressions of divinity which allow filtered access to fundamental laws of the universe Shards influence how one accesses an Invested Art, not what is possible with that Invested Art The Shards do not all have perfect opposites The role of perception and Intent: Intent as an expression of Identity was created to give 'wiggle room' to realmatic physics based on perception Shardic Intent is influenced by the Intent and perception of its vessel (and vice versa) Dawnshards permanently and significantly change your soul A vessel going too strongly against its Shard can cause that Shard to leave or splinter Ati as a person was diametrically opposed to the concept of Ruin and tried to change it Tanavast thought he understood Honor but later came to dramatically disagree with it From here on out, assume everything I say is speculative, even if I don't preface it with 'I reckon' or whatever.  Matching Shards to Dawnshards First up, some justification as to why I mapped each Shard to the Dawnshards the way I did. This part is largely up to interpretation, especially with how little we know about some of the Shards, and I welcome debate on my specific mapping of the Shards. I am happy with which quadrant contains which Shard. I've put them where they are based on a bunch of evidence and personal interpretation that would make this already-unwieldy post quite silly, but I did want to highlight in particular how each Shard grants its Invested Art: Spoiler Dawnshard Shard Invested Art acquisition Exist Endowment Freely given Exist Preservation Contain a piece of Preservation Exist Virtuosity Work on mastery over a skill or art Exist Ambition  Change Autonomy Overcome personal challenges Change Valor  Change Invention  Change Reason  Reduce Whimsy  Reduce Ruin Steal from another's Spiritweb Reduce Odium Hijack and override Identity Reduce Mercy  Merge Devotion Literally devote onself to something Merge Dominion Bruteforce Connection with others Merge Cultivation Submit Spiritweb to be cultivated Merge Honor Swear and uphold oaths  I've left blank the ones we don't know, but IMO this clearly shows how each Shard is related to its Dawnshard. Exist: Of the Exist Shards we know, we can see they share a theme around improving/empowering the self in some way. Change: Only one here, and I'll likely update Autonomy's entry when we have more info. Reduce: Ruin and Odium both require some form of Identity-reduction to acquire their power. Merge: We've experienced Invested Arts from all four of the Merge Shards, and they all share a clear common theme of increasing Connection. Devotion and Dominion have a slight bias toward reducing Identity, and Cultivation and Honor have a slight bias toward increasing it, but their main defining feature is in someway committing to an increase in Connection.  Four groups of Shards So we know a group of people got together and killed big-G God using the Dawnshards. From Rysn's mural in particular, it's reasonable to assume that Adonalsium was first split into 4, then into 16. I've seen plenty of theories that posit that the Dawnshards split each of the initial quarters again (so Preservation would be Exist/Exist, Odium might be Reduce/Merge, etc), but there's nothing to say that was the case. It's a neat way of explaining why there are 16 Shards, but we know there didn't have to be 16. There could've been more, or fewer, or Hoid might have taken one to make 17. The only reason there are 16 Shards is because 16 people decided to take up the splintered power. All we can say from that is that Adonalsium was split into four, and then those fragments were split into sixteen mostly (but not perfectly) symmetrical pieces. I think the Dawnshards split Adonalsium into four chunks of divinity that each represented one of the Commands, and the 16 to-be-vessels simply chose some of the essence of each one to look after, unintentionally shaping it by the very nature of interacting with it. For example, only Edgli could've extracted Endowment from Exist, and she physically couldn't have extracted anything different from it, just like I couldn't just decide to start flying. I have split this up assuming 4 people each shared a Dawnshard, probably on agreement to split the power evenly, but there's no reason the actual set-up we have now couldn't be, for example, 5 Exist, 2 Merge, 6 Change and 3 Reduce (although I believe Ati was reluctantly 'forced' to take a Reduce Shard, which implies they did split them evenly). As an example, let's look at what I think happened with Merge: Aona, Skai, Koravellium and Tanavast were chosen to be the stewards of the Merge quadrant. Each of them, based on their personal worldviews and perceptions, understood the Command differently: Aona saw prioritising Connection to others and to ideals over one's own personal desires, so her chunk became Devotion Skai saw the enforcement of Connection above all else, an empire with him at its head to ensure order: Dominion Koravellium (a dragon who was used to looking after mortals) saw individuals as potential pieces of a spiritual whole that need careful pruning to better make them fit: Cultivation Tanavast saw oaths and promises as tools to bind people to each other for structure and strength: Honor In each case, the Shardic Intent was fractured and warped by the perception of each person that took some of the power. 'Cultivation' as a concept didn't exist until Koravellium interacted with the quarter of Adonalsium's broken soul that represented the Merge Dawnshard.   Imperfection So the Dawnshards created perfect quarters, and then the vessels created imperfect divisions within those quarters. This is why the Shards mostly don't have perfect opposites. Theoretically, that means there should be an 'ideal' form of the 16 Shards, where they all do have perfect opposites. To that end (and to help me guide where the actual Shards came from), I started from the Dawnshards and thought about what they actually represented. I then looked at how they would sit in a grid and considered their neighbours (eg: an Exist Shard with high Connection relates closer to Merge than to Reduce), giving them names to help guide my thinking. Those 8 together became Protoshards, and from those I suggested what the 16 Ideal Shards might have looked like in a perfect split. I've included these as a sort of 'show your working' so you can see how I arrived at the conclusions I did: Spoiler Dawnshard Boundary Name Protoshard Ideal Shard Shard Exist Fortify Continuity Expansion Endowment Exist Fortify Continuity Stasis Preservation Exist Isolate Assertion Perfection Virtuosity Exist Isolate Assertion Aspiration Ambition Change Isolate Sovereignty Independence Autonomy Change Isolate Sovereignty Resolve Valor Change Destabilise Disruption Innovation Invention Change Destabilise Disruption Curiosity Reason Reduce Destabilise Dissolution Caprice Whimsy Reduce Destabilise Dissolution Entropy Ruin Reduce Bind Submission Compulsion Odium Reduce Bind Submission Surrender Mercy Merge Bind Unity Concord Devotion Merge Bind Unity Authority Dominion Merge Fortify Elevation Integration Cultivation Merge Fortify Elevation Commitment Honor (side note, but having Unity as the Protoshard for Devotion and Dominion is just too satisfying)  So, if Adonalsium were split into 16 purely equal and unmodified Shards, we might expect something like this: Spoiler When what we actually got was this (I included Harmony and Retribution, for which I simply summed the Identity and Connection values for their constituent Shards): Spoiler  How Honor and Ruin fit Tanavast and Ati are interesting case studies here, and I've put that tangent in a spoiler to save space: Spoiler Tanavast Tanavast saw Merge and thought "yes, I understand what that means; Oaths and structure are important to help people, and I, as a god, can uphold that". Throughout Tanavast's flashbacks in WaT, he's constantly spouting and overcompensating, repeating that he, as a god, should be worshipped, and a good example, and a provider to his people. The dichotomy he faced with Honor was threefold: Tanavast thought he understood Honor, but was immature in his understanding and overestimated his ability to truly uphold it, like someone stubbornly ordering the spiciest thing on the menu before having to tap out halfway through and ask for a glass of milk The Shards are not morally influenced; for most vessels, this was fine, but Tanavast struggled a lot to separate Honor's actual Intent from what he wanted to be and uphold as a god Part of Tanavast's image of Honor is impossible in a Merge-only Shard; using Oaths to do what's right is a much more complex philosophical position that requires Intent contained in the other Shards Tanavast's perception of Merge created the Intent Honor, but the resulting 'oaths over everything' Intent clashed with Tanavast's idea of moral righteousness.  Ati This one is even more interesting; Ati was diametrically opposed to Ruin and thought he could bend the Shard to his own will. I believe that Ati either willingly submitted to or was forced to take a Reduce Shard to maintain an equal balance of vessels across the four quadrants. This is actually (imo) why Ruin and Preservation are perfect opposites; everyone else influenced the creation of a Shard that represented their worldview; Ati didn't consider himself to align with Reduce, so his perception of it was simply the opposite concept of one of the Exist Shards (which is in itself a great representation of Identity sacrifice, ironically making Ati a fantastic candidate for a Reduce Shard). Even then, why wasn't that disagreement enough for Ruin to leave Ati? I think this one has a few reasons: Ati never actually acted against Ruin; he thought about it, and wanted to modify Ruin, but didn't want to risk losing stewardship over it The longer Ati stayed with Ruin, the more Ruin's Intent warped Ati's perception, melding the two together more strongly over time Ruin itself had no reason to leave Ati, and Shards usually don't 'think' like that (Honor is just one of many examples in the Cosmere of unbound Investiture spontaneously developing consciousness) Ati didn't actually act against Ruin, and Ruin's Identity-reducing nature eventually caused Ati to lose himself fully in the Shard's Intent.   Cultivator? I barely know her! (canned laughter) "But Cultivation doesn't Merge things, she literally Changes them!" Excellent point, and one that bugged me for a while, too. But Preservation also changed things, and the biggest consistent thing I've seen across Dawnshard theories is that Preservation is the primo example of an Exist Shard. Another spoiler tag for another tangent: Spoiler Remember that a Shard's Intent influences how people access that Shard's power, not what people can do with it. The only confirmed instances we have of Cultivation herself (rather than the Nightwatcher, a spren with its own Identity and Intent) directly blessing a mortal are: Taravangian: he willingly asked for capacity to save his people; Cultivation granted that to him in a way specifically to groom him to become Odium Dalinar: he willingly sought a way to get over his mistakes and become a better person; Cultivation gave him the emotional space and resilience he needed to grow into a leader who helped build the largest coalition Roshar had seen in a long time Lift: she willingly demanded that she 'stay the same'; Cultivation linked her to herself with the ability to access Lifelight, and gave her a much stronger bond to the Cognitive and Spiritual realms than people can normally achieve All of these have something in common that let us eliminate the other Dawnshard candidates: Cutivation waited for them to willingly opt-in and consent: can't be Reduce They volunteered to have their Identity modified by an external agent: can't be Exist They all specifically wanted to avoid disruption/destruction coming to something they loved: can't be Change Also, her impact on the Knights Radiant was to introduce ideals as a scalable method to measure growth. This growth is different by Order, and is measured and validated by the different types of spren. Knights Radiant as a whole aren't measured primarily on personal growth (though some Orders do prioritise that), but on their adherence to (and therefore aligning and Merging with) a pre-defined structure. Cultivation doesn't disrupt; she prunes and guides toward a more holistic spiritual garden. She increases Connection, and therefore Merges.  Edited May 3 by PanLin added to the justifications section 6
Karger he/him Posted March 13 Posted March 13 (edited) Had a similar theory back in the day. Metals and shards in my sig now. Edited March 13 by Karger 2
Denissimo He/him Posted May 3 Posted May 3 Beautiful reasoning. The most complete theorisation as to the fundemental nature of the core concepts in the cosmere I have seen so far. I will say that given our comparatively diminutive knowledge of most of the shards, the accuracy of where they stand on your axes is questionable. But, I see no real reason why they would be wrong.  I will also say that shardic capabilities would need to be further explored for more accuracy: We know they basically have infinite investiture (or, a large amount at least). We know investiture can be, and shards do, utilise them for a wide range of "magical" effects. However, as to the actual nature of investiture: The logic behind it's capabilties mainly, is not explored yet (as far as I have observed). We've lots of categorisations (potential, kintetic, etc.) but that doesn't explain it's nature. Arguably, energy and forces are in the same manner. Try to define energy. We've lots of ways it can be utilised in equations and extrapolation, but it isn't really a tangible thing (Arguably, waves are "pure" energy according to some, but I disagree with that on the basis of the vagueness of our definitions regarding it). However, the reason why I believe investiture should, and will be, further explained is because it is described as a tangible... thing. With an appearance and everything. 1
PanLin they/he Posted May 3 Author Posted May 3 2 minutes ago, Denissimo said: Beautiful reasoning. The most complete theorisation as to the fundemental nature of the core concepts in the cosmere I have seen so far. Gosh, big words! Thanks so much for reading and leaving the feedback.  4 minutes ago, Denissimo said: I will say that given our comparatively diminutive knowledge of most of the shards, the accuracy of where they stand on your axes is questionable Oh for sure, and I'll be the first to disprove my own theories when new information comes out I'm a data professional at heart and can't stand misinformation.  6 minutes ago, Denissimo said: But, I see no real reason why they would be wrong. I really appreciate that, thanks! Be sure to let me know if you do think of anything though, I genuinely love having my ideas and theories challenged.
Denissimo He/him Posted May 3 Posted May 3 Also, I have a similar theory deriving off similar views to this: In regards to the way shards use investiture, how it is warped by both vessel identity and the shardic intent. The example I used was the clash between Ati and Vin. Most shardic clashes have lead to mass destruction. Rends in the realms, the whole shabang. However, Ati and Vin just sort of deleted each other, leaving Scadrial very much intact. I believed the reason for this was the intents of Ruin and Preservation are directly opposed (as also indicated by your scale), leading their investiture-clashing... thing... to also cancel out very neatly. I need time to flesh out the details, but thats the basis of it. Odium and Honor have overlaps somewhat in their intents. They did not cancel out when the shards "touched", leading to the mass destruction shown. They had time to exist and tear each other to pieces. Â
PanLin they/he Posted May 3 Author Posted May 3 Oop sorry, didn't see your other points when I first replied!  10 minutes ago, Denissimo said: However, as to the actual nature of investiture: The logic behind it's capabilties mainly, is not explored yet (as far as I have observed). We've lots of categorisations (potential, kintetic, etc.) but that doesn't explain it's nature. Arguably, energy and forces are in the same manner. Try to define energy. We've lots of ways it can be utilised in equations and extrapolation, but it isn't really a tangible thing (Arguably, waves are "pure" energy according to some, but I disagree with that on the basis of the vagueness of our definitions regarding it). However, the reason why I believe investiture should, and will be, further explained is because it is described as a tangible... thing. With an appearance and everything. Yep agreed! Even in the real world, the more we understand about energy and matter, the more it feels like trying to cleanly define either as its own separate thing is almost redundant at the quantum level. Investiture in the Cosmere is like adding a third variable to that famous equation. As we learn more about its mechanics, I expect it will either come to be defined as: straight-up a third form that 'stuff' can exist as, alongside energy and matter a sort of mirror, where we end up with physical energy-matter and Invested energy-matter (depends how different, realmatically, kinetic and static Investiture are)  7 minutes ago, Denissimo said: The example I used was the clash between Ati and Vin. Most shardic clashes have lead to mass destruction. Rends in the realms, the whole shabang. However, Ati and Vin just sort of deleted each other, leaving Scadrial very much intact. I believed the reason for this was the intents of Ruin and Preservation are directly opposed (as also indicated by your scale), leading their investiture-clashing... thing... to also cancel out very neatly. I need time to flesh out the details, but thats the basis of it. Odium and Honor have overlaps somewhat in their intents. They did not cancel out when the shards "touched", leading to the mass destruction shown. They had time to exist and tear each other to pieces. I do kind of disagree with the bolded bit—granted, it may have been because of Ruin's machinations, but Scadrial was messed up after that clash, and required immediate reshaping and repairing by Harmony. Although it would help to explain why Honor and Odium almost tore Roshar apart when Preservation and Ruin were able to Invest Scadrial for ages without anything as dramatic, unless that was just part of the agreement between Leras and Ati. That said, you may still be right! I'm going to follow you and eagerly await the full theoryÂ
Denissimo He/him Posted May 3 Posted May 3 1 hour ago, PanLin said: Oop sorry, didn't see your other points when I first replied!  Yep agreed! Even in the real world, the more we understand about energy and matter, the more it feels like trying to cleanly define either as its own separate thing is almost redundant at the quantum level. Investiture in the Cosmere is like adding a third variable to that famous equation. As we learn more about its mechanics, I expect it will either come to be defined as: straight-up a third form that 'stuff' can exist as, alongside energy and matter a sort of mirror, where we end up with physical energy-matter and Invested energy-matter (depends how different, realmatically, kinetic and static Investiture are)  I do kind of disagree with the bolded bit—granted, it may have been because of Ruin's machinations, but Scadrial was messed up after that clash, and required immediate reshaping and repairing by Harmony. Although it would help to explain why Honor and Odium almost tore Roshar apart when Preservation and Ruin were able to Invest Scadrial for ages without anything as dramatic, unless that was just part of the agreement between Leras and Ati. That said, you may still be right! I'm going to follow you and eagerly await the full theory "I do kind of disagree with the bolded bit—granted, it may have been because of Ruin's machinations, but Scadrial was messed up after that clash, and required immediate reshaping and repairing by Harmony." In reference to this, from what I know, it was mainly due to Ruin's destructive intent throughout history rather than that specific clash. Most of Scadrial's problems came from Ruin's direct influence (apart from the mists... though Ruin had a major hand in that, though not it's creation) rather than a result of the clash between Preservation and Ruin. That, and the effects that Rashek had caused when he briefly took the power of the Well of Ascension. My point being, I'm pretty sure Scadrial was messed up not due to the clash between the shards, but as you said Ruin's machinations. " Yep agreed! Even in the real world, the more we understand about energy and matter, the more it feels like trying to cleanly define either as its own separate thing is almost redundant at the quantum level. Investiture in the Cosmere is like adding a third variable to that famous equation. As we learn more about its mechanics, I expect it will either come to be defined as: straight-up a third form that 'stuff' can exist as, alongside energy and matter a sort of mirror, where we end up with physical energy-matter and Invested energy-matter (depends how different, realmatically, kinetic and static Investiture are)" Yes, yes! Exactly! Most of the most complex and abstract parts of physics, and I mainly refer to concepts to do with energy and time are simply mathematical frameworks constructed to make predicitons based on previously observed patterns, not a literal representation of what exists! When these abstractions work consistently, it becomes tempting to treat them as physically real entities rather than as tools. This risks reifying concepts that may only approximate deeper, unknown structures, leading us to mistake the elegance and success of our equations for a direct window into the true nature of reality rather than a highly effective, but ultimately limited, representation of it. It blurs the line between model and reality, partially due to our scuppered education system which doesn't clarify that! I've got professors teaching relativity, yet unable to properly prove that time is indeed a traversible dimension using arguments other than those bordering on apologetics ("How can you prove it isn't?"). The reason why these models exist is to allow us to do calculations and predicitons accurately without having to fully comprehend the deeper structures that exist, becuase we have't figured those out yet. We understand the mathematical correlations, but not what the variables actually are. That was a rant, and i somehow deviated from the initially discussion regarding investiture. I wonder if Sanderson will chose to reframe energy and matter to accomodate for investiture. I once argued it to be the "measurement of quantum uncertainty able to be influenced through intent", but that isn't something tangible and physical, which is how it is framed. 1
PanLin they/he Posted May 3 Author Posted May 3 (edited) 1 hour ago, Denissimo said: In reference to this, from what I know, it was mainly due to Ruin's destructive intent throughout history rather than that specific clash. Most of Scadrial's problems came from Ruin's direct influence (apart from the mists... though Ruin had a major hand in that, though not it's creation) rather than a result of the clash between Preservation and Ruin. That, and the effects that Rashek had caused when he briefly took the power of the Well of Ascension. My point being, I'm pretty sure Scadrial was messed up not due to the clash between the shards, but as you said Ruin's machinations. Yeah valid! As I say, eager to read the full theory when you post it  1 hour ago, Denissimo said: Yes, yes! Exactly! Most of the most complex and abstract parts of physics, and I mainly refer to concepts to do with energy and time are simply mathematical frameworks constructed to make predicitons based on previously observed patterns, not a literal representation of what exists! When these abstractions work consistently, it becomes tempting to treat them as physically real entities rather than as tools. This risks reifying concepts that may only approximate deeper, unknown structures, leading us to mistake the elegance and success of our equations for a direct window into the true nature of reality rather than a highly effective, but ultimately limited, representation of it. It blurs the line between model and reality, partially due to our scuppered education system which doesn't clarify that! I've got professors teaching relativity, yet unable to properly prove that time is indeed a traversible dimension using arguments other than those bordering on apologetics ("How can you prove it isn't?"). The reason why these models exist is to allow us to do calculations and predicitons accurately without having to fully comprehend the deeper structures that exist, becuase we have't figured those out yet. We understand the mathematical correlations, but not what the variables actually are. Love the enthusiasm And yes, I completely agree! Especially considering the philosophical and religious context that obviously inspires Sanderson. Perception and Intent are both wildly powerful and important in the Cosmere (I have a theory that they actually defined what specific Shards we ended up with after the Shattering), and I really think that Investiture is essentially the mechanism/force/law that allows for them to have that influence over reality. It seems to be this extra nebulous 'thing' that gives Sanderson a way to weave divinity and consciousness into the fundamental laws of reality. It's entirely possible that we won't ever truly understand what Investiture actually is, and will only have these mathematical/predictive models that approximate it well enough. We already know that a lot of the in-universe explanations of things are given by unreliable narrators (yes, even Khriss)—Rosharans are prone to calling all kinetic Investiture Surgebinding, for example.  1 hour ago, Denissimo said: That was a rant, and i somehow deviated from the initially discussion regarding investiture. I wonder if Sanderson will chose to reframe energy and matter to accomodate for investiture. I once argued it to be the "measurement of quantum uncertainty able to be influenced through intent", but that isn't something tangible and physical, which is how it is framed. I fully enjoyed the rant, thanks. From everything we've seen so far, it feels like he's trying to posit Investiture as an add-on that makes reality in the Cosmere fundamentally different from our own, rather than something squeezed into real-world physics models. Edited May 3 by PanLin
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