Open questions

[Isilel]

Some more:

Why did Cakoban and Co. go back to exploring Shadesmar after dumping their people on the isles, that they themselves considered to be deadly?

Why didn't they explore First of the Sun instead, to find better places for them to live?

Why was Cakoban so sure that his children and sister would even still be alive? Granted, Japo having the power of "mindshield" (Coppercloud), which, presumably, some of the Eelakin back on the Pantheon also had, would have protected them from telepathic predators for as long as they still had investiture to power it, even before they learned to use Aviar, but there are so many other dangers, that could only be learned about at the cost of many lives.

Or did they have other innate powers, mimicking Allomancy? Do they still unknowingly have them? And the whole trapper trials thing is to allow them to fuel these abilities with Autonomy's investiture, rather than whatever their ancestors used?

What could have caused a storm in Shadesmar that doomed most of Cakoban's expedition? Autonomy was already dead, since they sailed and navigated by the Current, which means that D@D also were...

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 7/16/2025 at 1:30 PM, Isilel said:

Some more:

Why did Cakoban and Co. go back to exploring Shadesmar after dumping their people on the isles, that they themselves considered to be deadly?

Isn't that reason enough?

On 7/16/2025 at 1:30 PM, Isilel said:

Why didn't they explore First of the Sun instead, to find better places for them to live?

How? Carrying boats built for Shadesmar through a perpendicularity, through the jungles of Patji and then sail an ocean they did not know?

[Isilel]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Isn't that reason enough?

No? Finding better places to live on a planet should have been easier than finding another Perpendicularity in Shadesmar, while needing to continuously expend finite investiture to stay afloat. Not to mention that there was significantly more food around on the First of the Sun.

I really wish that the story had mentioned what they were looking for - maybe they lost contact with some part of their fleet on the way in and were trying to find them, or wanted to make sure that their enemies didn't follow them? Instead of just that they went back to exploring Shadesmar after dumping their population on a deadly island.

 

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

How? Carrying boats built for Shadesmar through a perpendicularity, through the jungles of Patji and then sail an ocean they did not know?

 

I mean, that's what they eventually did? Presumably pretty soon after Japo returned, therefore the myth that Dakwara created the homeisles at Cakoban's behest.

Why would you assume that their boats were made specifically for Shadesmar? They were clearly a sea-faring culture and took their normal, sea-worthy boats when they set off on their trek through the Cognitive. 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

No? Finding better places to live on a planet should have been easier than finding another Perpendicularity in Shadesmar, while needing to continuously expend finite investiture to stay afloat. Not to mention that there was significantly more food around on the First of the Sun.

If they wouldn'r find another perpendicularity, they'd have to pass through Patji, wouldn't they? And what good does the Investiture do them if they don't use it?

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

Why would you assume that their boats were made specifically for Shadesmar? They were clearly a sea-faring culture and took their normal, sea-worthy boats when they set off on their trek through the Cognitive. 

Perpendicularities don't float, do they? Chances are that the one that got to Shadesmar was on land. Hence you cannot sail there. If you want to use a ship in Shadesmar, you'll have to assemble it in Shadesmar. People will have to carry the parts and materials through the perpendicularity. I'd make it as light as I could get away with.

[Isilel]

16 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

And what good does the Investiture do them if they don't use it?

 

They could have used it to help their people survive on Patji and explore the seas to find a better place for them to settle. We can't assume that Seeker-like abilities would have been useless on the planet - they could have allowed Cakoban to detect the many animals that use mind abilities on and around the Pantheon, for example, which must be invested powers too. 

Japo, one of his companions, could produce a "mindshield", i.e. was a Coppercloud. Which would have been extremely useful back on the planet. 

In fact, I am pretty sure that the reason why the Eelakin survived long enough on Patji, as a people, to escape and find the homeisles was because they used  invested arts of their own. Which were fuelled by their dwindling stores of golden investiture.

Trappers passing the trials of the Pantheon just lets them Connect to Autonomy enough that they can now use her investiture instead.

As to the boats, people fleeing before their enemies would have just taken the ones they already had. Particularly since they would have wanted to be able to sail and fish in their new homeland immediately, rather than spend months or years constructing new ones. YMMV.

[+robardin he/him]

So, the Malwish are the dominant expansionist Scadrians in this era of the Cosmere...

...yet they didn't know about Aviar, and only had recorded history about in retrospect, how some of them were on Roshar in the past (Mraize having one, for example, and the one belonging to the Feruchemist who was killed in Urithiru in RoW), with means of access unknown.

But if the Ghostbloods not only knew about Aviar but acquired them, and they were obviously run by Kelsier, and he's the Sovereign of the Malwish who was also seen returning to Elendel from there in TLM by airship... Does that mean whoever's in charge of the Malwish Empire or whatever, is NOT aligned with the Sovereign / Kelsier / Ghostbloods?

And, if Dusk and most of the other trappers are able to become Navigators by ingesting "worm paste" due to a gift or stronger Connection to Patji from having "proven themselves" by surviving on the Patheon Islands for so long, ... Now that even Patji itself (the island) is now "tamed", where will the next generation of Navigators come from?

Or is simply residing for a while on the Pantheon Islands enough, like sending kids to go to Camp Patji for a semester? Will they have to at least undergo exposure to threats like the deathants, in a Wild Patji Preserve type of proving grounds?

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

30 minutes ago, robardin said:

So, the Malwish are the dominant expansionist Scadrians in this era of the Cosmere...

...yet they didn't know about Aviar, and only had recorded history about in retrospect, how some of them were on Roshar in the past (Mraize having one, for example, and the one belonging to the Feruchemist who was killed in Urithiru in RoW), with means of access unknown.

But if the Ghostbloods not only knew about Aviar but acquired them, and they were obviously run by Kelsier, and he's the Sovereign of the Malwish who was also seen returning to Elendel from there in TLM by airship... Does that mean whoever's in charge of the Malwish Empire or whatever, is NOT aligned with the Sovereign / Kelsier / Ghostbloods?

Well, it's not as though old Kel has a very bad history with Empires or anything. Bad enough that he still holds some distaste towards the nobility of Elendel several centuries later.

The Malwish Empire seems to treat conquest of the entire Cosmere as their birthright and have a long history of treating other people's that aren't as technologically advanced as them as 'barbarians', even other Scadrians.

Kelsier wants his world protected from those who would try to destroy it or conquer it, but I like to think he would probably draw the line at doing the same thin to other worlds that can't even protect themselves and have done nothing to deserve it.

Perhaps history has repeated, and Kel just might be the head of a new rebellion against the current rulers of his world? That'd be pretty cool, Era 1-esque but in the far future, with all sorts of new advancements for both the good guys and bad guys.

34 minutes ago, robardin said:

And, if Dusk and most of the other trappers are able to become Navigators by ingesting "worm paste" due to a gift or stronger Connection to Patji from having "proven themselves" by surviving on the Patheon Islands for so long, ... Now that even Patji itself (the island) is now "tamed", where will the next generation of Navigators come from?

Or is simply residing for a while on the Pantheon Islands enough, like sending kids to go to Camp Patji for a semester? Will they have to at least undergo exposure to threats like the deathants, in a Wild Patji Preserve type of proving grounds?

All they need to do is continue the Trapper traditions, which is good because since the knowledge of how Aviars are given Talents was learned, Trappers had been quickly outdated, but now, they're vital to their people. 

I kind of wish that aspect was shown more instead of just being said, with Dusk meeting a Trapper or two who were out of work and blamed Dusk for it, with them at the end of the book now having their purpose back.

[+robardin he/him]

1 hour ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Well, it's not as though old Kel has a very bad history with Empires or anything. ...

Perhaps history has repeated, and Kel just might be the head of a new rebellion against the current rulers of his world? That'd be pretty cool, Era 1-esque but in the far future, with all sorts of new advancements for both the good guys and bad guys.

All they need to do is continue the Trapper traditions, which is good because since the knowledge of how Aviars are given Talents was learned, Trappers had been quickly outdated, but now, they're vital to their people. 

I kind of wish that aspect was shown more instead of just being said, with Dusk meeting a Trapper or two who were out of work and blamed Dusk for it, with them at the end of the book now having their purpose back.

Yeah, I was thinking along the lines of "Kelsier/GBs are holding back from, or even opposed to, the Malwish leadership" as well, we shall see!

As for "continuing the Trapper traditions", that's what I was getting at: if living on the Pantheon Islands is now just like living on the homeisles, more or less, would that still confer the Connection to Patji which was based on that act as "proving oneself" to Patji, as it once did?

Or are they going to have to set aside "nature preserves" on the Pantheon Islands, so that people can live the "Trapper Way" for long enough, and more importantly "for real" enough, to be able to develop into worm-paste-eating Navigators?

[Isilel]

2 hours ago, robardin said:

But if the Ghostbloods not only knew about Aviar but acquired them

 

Iyatil/Mraize acquired _one_ Aviar, somehow. Doesn't mean that they knew where it was from. Mraize, after all, by his own admission has never visited another planet. They likely got it off some worldhopper in the Cognitive. Gereh, the master of the red Aviar, wasn't a Ghostblood, that's why they killed him. And, of course, Iyatil had her secrets from Kelsier, so even if she knew something, she might not have shared it.

Kelsier was also fine with helping Gavilar cause a Desolation, so I am not sure how much he cares about the planets that his Ghostbloods interfere with. What the Mawlish are doing aligns with his "every star a threat" and "protect Scadrial at all cost" stances in TLM. He was also stressing how they needed other means of accessing alien worlds than travel through Shadesmar...

But IIRC some WoBs also hinted at an upcoming schism among the Ghostbloods on Scadrial, possibly in the Era 3 books, and this may be the result? Just like Kelsier is indirectly responsible for existence of the Set and his meddling on Roshar likely was one of the causes of hostility between the 2 planets in the future, Mawlish interstellar imperialism could be another unintended consequence of his actions.

 

3 hours ago, robardin said:

Now that even Patji itself (the island) is now "tamed", where will the next generation of Navigators come from?

 

They now have an excellent reason to preserve the rest of the Pantheon islands as they are. Most of the trappers didn't work on  Patji itself, after all. So, people who want to become Navigators would still have to go through traditional sailing without technical aids training and trapper experience, with attendant risks, to become able to use the worm paste. 

[lacrossedeamon]

On 7/16/2025 at 1:30 PM, Isilel said:

Why was Cakoban so sure that his children and sister would even still be alive? Granted, Japo having the power of "mindshield" (Coppercloud), which, presumably, some of the Eelakin back on the Pantheon also had, would have protected them from telepathic predators for as long as they still had investiture to power it, even before they learned to use Aviar, but there are so many other dangers, that could only be learned about at the cost of many lives.

I think its possible that Autonomy/Patji wasn't as invested in FotS until the arrival of Cakoban so the wildlife might not have been quite as dangerous with the cognitive abilities developing more over time after the fact.

[alder24]

18 hours ago, robardin said:

And, if Dusk and most of the other trappers are able to become Navigators by ingesting "worm paste" due to a gift or stronger Connection to Patji from having "proven themselves" by surviving on the Patheon Islands for so long, ... Now that even Patji itself (the island) is now "tamed", where will the next generation of Navigators come from?

IotE Epilogue:

Quote

As per Patji’s words, this was a gift only to them. Ed had an explanation—close proximity to a perpendicularity could change people’s souls. He was confident nobody but those from First of the Sun would have this talent unless they spent time living on Patji or the other Pantheon Islands, close to the power of the pool.
Dusk didn’t need such explanations, as he had the word of the god himself. But it was good to hear, so they knew who to test for the talent. They hoped that some of the guards posted at the pool might develop it—though they needed to devise proper tests. Perhaps a training protocol in wayfinding and survival . . .
Also, he wondered at the few trappers who hadn’t manifested the ability. They were strong and capable. Why not them? Were there . . . other powers they could give their birds instead?

 

[+robardin he/him]

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

IotE Epilogue:

Ed had an explanation—close proximity to a perpendicularity could change people’s souls. He was confident nobody but those from First of the Sun would have this talent unless they spent time living on Patji or the other Pantheon Islands, close to the power of the pool. Dusk didn’t need such explanations, as he had the word of the god himself. But it was good to hear, so they knew who to test for the talent. They hoped that some of the guards posted at the pool might develop it—though they needed to devise proper tests. Perhaps a training protocol in wayfinding and survival . . .

So this is surmised by "Ed" the Arcanist, who wasn't there when any of it happened, and they are "hoping" that some of the guards posted at the pool might develop the talent, that proximity and duration were the only requirements, along with training in how to "navigate by feel of current" the traditional trapper way.

But is that enough? Let's revisit the words of "the god himself" after Dusk first sensed the Current (from eating the skullsnake meat), and ingested some of the "worm paste" from Patji:

Quote

Welcome, a far-off, masculine voice said, my son. ... It is the final step of your training.

"All along," [Dusk] said. "If we'd eaten the worms... If anyone eats the worms..."

Anyone? The voice laughed. Do I bless anyone?

"No," Dusk whispered. "Only those who are tested."

And who survive, Patji said. ... For no victory is warranted unless it is earned...

Tested, and earned, by learning to survive the deadly challenges of the Pantheon Isles, which are no longer threats, except in zoological displays. The islands themselves have basically been cleared of such threats, with civilian workers and research bases made possible, as Vathi discusses with Dusk in Ch. 13:

Quote

"...Your expertise was essential in clearing out Patji, to make it safe for workers."

"Any trapper could have done that job. You could have done that job, if you'd been able to spare the time. Besides, it is done now. Deathant nests smoked out, cutaway vines chopped to pieces and their roots salted. The island has been conquered."

And then at the end, in Ch. 61, Dusk reflects on how:

Quote

Patji, which had once been a proving ground for trappers, then a center for research, was to become a spaceport. He no longer felt bad about that, for this was his Father's will. Proven in the tests that Dusk had survived. Those, at long last, were through.

It's Dusk's tests that at long last, were through, not his people's (at least, that's one way to view it). The tests that had "earned" him and the other trappers the "blessing of Patji that allows them to Navigate.

I'm sure the Eelakin will figure out exactly what might be required to create more Navigators after the Golden Age of Trapping, which is no longer possible in the same way with all the Pantheon Isles "conquered". But I would be surprised (disappointed, in fact) if it really were as simple/easy as having people hang out near the Shardpool on Patji for a few months, along with some current-feel training.

For it is not truly a test of survival if there is no threat of non-survival, right?

Or were all those threats simply to make prolonged human proximity to the Shardpool extremely difficult, as a challenge to discovering this in the first place (along with harvesting Aviar); that once overcome, is like "OK, achievement unlocked" for the Eelkin "as a people" and not just for specific trappers any more?

Edited July 19, 2025 by robardin

[Isilel]

1 hour ago, robardin said:

with all the Pantheon Isles "conquered"

 

There is no indication in the text that all the 40+ islands of the Pantheon have been cleared? There is only talk of and Dusk's thoughts of it having been done on Patji.

It is just that with industrial raising of Aviar, old-style trapping was no longer economically viable on the other islands either, IMHO.

So there remains plenty for the would-be users of worm investiture to test themselves against.

Though, population of  sea monsters is likely eradicated or severely depleted, since they would have endangered the shipping to Patji. 

I wonder what would happen, if random Eelakin tried to use unkeyed Dor. After all, their ancestors already had invested abilities before arriving on the First of the Sun - both Seeker-like navigators, like Cakoban and people who could produce Coppercloud-like "mindshields", like his companion Japo. So, the trapper trials likely just attune them to Autonomy's investiture, rather than bestow new powers...

 

[+robardin he/him]

29 minutes ago, Isilel said:

 

There is no indication in the text that all the 40+ islands of the Pantheon have been cleared? There is only talk of and Dusk's thoughts of it having been done on Patji.

It is just that with industrial raising of Aviar, old-style trapping was no longer economically viable on the other islands either, IMHO.

So there remains plenty for the would-be users of worm investiture to test themselves against.

Though, population of  sea monsters is likely eradicated or severely depleted, since they would have endangered the shipping to Patji. 

I wonder what would happen, if random Eelakin tried to use unkeyed Dor. After all, their ancestors already had invested abilities before arriving on the First of the Sun - both Seeker-like navigators, like Cakoban and people who could produce Coppercloud-like "mindshields", like his companion Japo. So, the trapper trials likely just attune them to Autonomy's investiture, rather than bestow new powers...

Indeed, the "conquering" of the Pantheon Isles is a step forward for Dusk's people.

But while there are quite a few Pantheon Islands, I thought Patji was the most dangerous one of them all? So I kind of assumed if they'd set up a base and cleared out deathant nests, etc., on Patji, it'd be the capstone move. But maybe not.

And yes, I forgot to bring that up as an "unanswered question": the origin of the Eelakin people (where did Cakoban and his folk come from across the Emberdark, where they have stories of cities, etc.,?), and the fact that he evidently already could Navigate and even had a jar of investiture ready to use in that flashback?

I like how you put it, that it was Autonomy's way of "attuning" their investiture to the Eelakin rather than bestowing a completely new ability to them (which could also explain why the few trappers who ate the pate did not feel the Current like Dusk and the others do, but may have instead "unlocked" some other ability).

It would fit in with how we see Autonomy somehow "hijacking" the power of another magic system in Mistborn Era 2, accessing and modifying access to Hemalurgy with "trellium" (bavadinium?) in a way that serves her (though Patji as one of her avatars is male).

Perhaps that even means that Patji was originally was one of Cakoban's people, the way that Telsin sought to become an Avatar of Autonomy on Scadrial? And whatever Investiture they used to use to gain Navigation and "mind clouding" being no longer available, is now re-enabled with these tests/trials forming a Connection to Autonomy's Investiture through Patji.

Edited July 19, 2025 by robardin

[bmcclure7]

On 7/18/2025 at 10:57 AM, robardin said:

So, the Malwish are the dominant expansionist Scadrians in this era of the Cosmere...

...yet they didn't know about Aviar, and only had recorded history about in retrospect, how some of them were on Roshar in the past (Mraize having one, for example, and the one belonging to the Feruchemist who was killed in Urithiru in RoW), with means of access unknown.

But if the Ghostbloods not only knew about Aviar but acquired them, and they were obviously run by Kelsier, and he's the Sovereign of the Malwish who was also seen returning to Elendel from there in TLM by airship... Does that mean whoever's in charge of the Malwish Empire or whatever, is NOT aligned with the Sovereign / Kelsier / Ghostbloods?

And, if Dusk and most of the other trappers are able to become Navigators by ingesting "worm paste" due to a gift or stronger Connection to Patji from having "proven themselves" by surviving on the Patheon Islands for so long, ... Now that even Patji itself (the island) is now "tamed", where will the next generation of Navigators come from?

Or is simply residing for a while on the Pantheon Islands enough, like sending kids to go to Camp Patji for a semester? Will they have to at least undergo exposure to threats like the deathants, in a Wild Patji Preserve type of proving grounds?

 Yes, it could be the ghost blood could no longer be aligned with any forces inside the Malwish .However, it is far more likely that the ghost bloods are simply a secret organization, and don’t share what they know with the government of their home planet. Consider this the ghost bloods knew about the birds and how to make aluminum prior to lost metal yet they did not share this with any government on their home planet. I doubt that this policy will change.

 

[+robardin he/him]

6 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 Yes, it could be the ghost blood could no longer be aligned with any forces inside the Malwish .However, it is far more likely that the ghost bloods are simply a secret organization, and don’t share what they know with the government of their home planet. Consider this the ghost bloods knew about the birds and how to make aluminum prior to lost metal yet they did not share this with any government on their home planet. I doubt that this policy will change.

So, reading Era 2 (esp. TLM) it was clear the GBs avoided notice from the leadership of Elendel, but I have always thought Kelsier as “The Sovereign” had a greater and more direct hand in manipulating the events and leadership of those in the Southern Hemisphere.

Like, why was it they (the Malwish) had legends and stories of The Sovereign teaching them about the Metallic Arts, gifting them the Excisors (whatever they were/are), creating the Bands of Mourning and leaving a trail of info to it with them (and not to anyone from the Basin)? We never found out.

And in TLM we see him returning by airship from the South — what was he doing there? And with an airship, which is hardly secretive. Maybe not the Malwish, though (they are one group among several, possibly the dominant group especially by this Era 4, but maybe not the one Kelsier was more directly interacting with even at the time)?

It would be just like Kelsier to simply adopt different personae to do different things with different groups, but when he said via seon to the Ghostbloods in Bilming that he was “on an airship twelve hours away” and commenting on how he “shouldn’t have left for the South… I thought Saze would stop it before it got this far”, they didn’t seem surprised that he had gone there.

That said, I agree that the GBs are certainly not “sharing information” with the Malwish leadership by any means. Kelsier may be a Splinter from having held Preservation (via forced Connection), but he really does have a lot of Ruin to him, and Autonomy as well! More that, what the Malwish are doing, might be in some way what Kelsier wants by proxy. Though it may be he now feels they’ve “gone too far” in some ways, we shall see about that as well!

[QuantumAce]

7 hours ago, robardin said:

That said, I agree that the GBs are certainly not “sharing information” with the Malwish leadership by any means. Kelsier may be a Splinter from having held Preservation (via forced Connection), but he really does have a lot of Ruin to him,

 

Yeah, I've been wondering if the books will ever revisit Kelsier's connection to Ruin. What if Discord results in Saz completely losing control of Ruin, with Kelsier just hanging out nearby? A cognitive shadow shouldn't be able to pick up a shard, but even a Kelsier shaped hole in the ground would make a perfect vessel for Ruin. 

[bmcclure7]

15 hours ago, robardin said:

So, reading Era 2 (esp. TLM) it was clear the GBs avoided notice from the leadership of Elendel, but I have always thought Kelsier as “The Sovereign” had a greater and more direct hand in manipulating the events and leadership of those in the Southern Hemisphere.

Like, why was it they (the Malwish) had legends and stories of The Sovereign teaching them about the Metallic Arts, gifting them the Excisors (whatever they were/are), creating the Bands of Mourning and leaving a trail of info to it with them (and not to anyone from the Basin)? We never found out.

And in TLM we see him returning by airship from the South — what was he doing there? And with an airship, which is hardly secretive. Maybe not the Malwish, though (they are one group among several, possibly the dominant group especially by this Era 4, but maybe not the one Kelsier was more directly interacting with even at the time)?

It would be just like Kelsier to simply adopt different personae to do different things with different groups, but when he said via seon to the Ghostbloods in Bilming that he was “on an airship twelve hours away” and commenting on how he “shouldn’t have left for the South… I thought Saze would stop it before it got this far”, they didn’t seem surprised that he had gone there.

That said, I agree that the GBs are certainly not “sharing information” with the Malwish leadership by any means. Kelsier may be a Splinter from having held Preservation (via forced Connection), but he really does have a lot of Ruin to him, and Autonomy as well! More that, what the Malwish are doing, might be in some way what Kelsier wants by proxy. Though it may be he now feels they’ve “gone too far” in some ways, we shall see about that as well!

@So, reading Era 2 (esp. TLM) it was clear the GBs avoided notice from the leadership of Elendel, but I have always thought Kelsier as “The Sovereign” had a greater and more direct hand in manipulating the events and leadership of those in the Southern Hemisphere.“

 

I don’t possibly see how you come to such a conclusion. The survivor is in no way less revered than the sovereign. Why would a completely different relationship with the Southerners ? 
 

“And in TLM we see him returning by airship from the South — what was he doing there? And with an airship, which is hardly secretive. ”

1. We know that he is lying to the Ghost bloods to hide the fact that he doesn’t have his powers. I assume the airship was all part of the lie that there was never an airship, and he was never in the south. 
 

2. Even if he was on airship, why do you think this wouldn’t be in secret? It’s not like he has to use one of the large military grade airships could use a smaller one man craft . 

[+robardin he/him]

10 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

@So, reading Era 2 (esp. TLM) it was clear the GBs avoided notice from the leadership of Elendel, but I have always thought Kelsier as “The Sovereign” had a greater and more direct hand in manipulating the events and leadership of those in the Southern Hemisphere.“

 

I don’t possibly see how you come to such a conclusion. The survivor is in no way less revered than the sovereign. Why would a completely different relationship with the Southerners ? 
 

“And in TLM we see him returning by airship from the South — what was he doing there? And with an airship, which is hardly secretive. ”

1. We know that he is lying to the Ghost bloods to hide the fact that he doesn’t have his powers. I assume the airship was all part of the lie that there was never an airship, and he was never in the south. 
 

2. Even if he was on airship, why do you think this wouldn’t be in secret? It’s not like he has to use one of the large military grade airships could use a smaller one man craft . 

Hmm. Curious how we read the same stuff and came to very different images/conclusions in our heads.

To the first point, when Allik talks about "The Sovereign" (before the big reveal at the conclusion of BoM that it was Kelsier), he says the Sovereign told them he had come from the Northern Hemisphere "where he had been your god before becoming ours" while wielding all 16 powers for both Allomancy and Hemalurgy, leading Wax and Co. to think it was somehow Rashek reincarnated, trying to "do better" than he had as The Lord Ruler with a new group of people.

Who then left them with legends (oral stories) about the Bands of Mourning that could grant those powers to any who "wore" them, that he'd put in a temple with his priests, etc.

The reason I pictured Kelsier thereby having a "direct hand" is by Allik's own account of his people's history with The Sovereign, is that the Sovereign ruled them like TLR had done in the North, for around a hundred years, right? That's a lot more direct than what he did as "The Survivor", which was to inspire the skaa to stand up to the Inquisitors and to TLR, and then to die for them, and have a kandra reappear as him.

(Of course it has crossed my mind that "The Sovereign" in the South was also a kandra, but let's take things at somewhat face value for now...)

I don't think he's lied to the GBs about "not having his powers" (of a Mistborn), or indeed any Invested powers, other than knowledge. Maybe he has, but on screen, we haven't seen any GB seem to expect him to "do something" other than give direction.

Or perhaps he DOES wield some kind of Invested power from being a Splinter of Preservation and having that spike through his eye, we don't know, except that he's not an Allomancer any more/at present as of the end of TLM when he meets with Harmony.

Since he DOES arrive to the GB safehouse to meet with Marasi later in TLM, and he seemed pretty frustrated with not being able to be there in person "for another 12 hours"  in that seon chat, I see no reason to doubt his statement, and again the other GBs didn't seem surprised that he'd be coming from the South via airship ("he went WHERE?", "He's in a WHAT now?"). I think, or at least we're supposed to think (and I do think), that they DID know he was there, if not the 100% accurate reason why, and that it's not an isolated event.

And finally, yes I did assume the airship he was on, was one of the large military grade ones capable of long flight. We've only ever seen those as being capable of trans-hemispheric flight, smaller ones like Wilg in BoM were not capable of that. So on top of imagining him in such a large airship, I also imagined there being at least a small, trusted crew flying it (that he wasn't operating solo). And that probably couldn't take off without being noticed, unless it was disguised as a ship doing something else (though with the state of relationship between the Malwish and the Basin leadership, it seemed like all civilian or mercantile flights from the South had been grounded).

If you thought his final comment on how he couldn't get there any faster because saying "I'm traveling over water, and so can't go much faster than I currently am. Dropping things off to Steelpush off doesn't do much with an ocean underneath you" implied he personally was or could be flying with Steelpushing, no, I read that as the airships flying via mechanical Steelpushing (which we already saw in BoM was in part how they functioned, using "ettmetal" and "primer cubes").

(We should probably take this discussion over to the Mistborn forum though, it's getting way tangential to "Open Questions from Isles of the Emberdark", LOL.)

Edited July 22, 2025 by robardin

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, robardin said:

Hmm. Curious how we read the same stuff and came to very different images/conclusions in our heads.

To the first point, when Allik talks about "The Sovereign" (before the big reveal at the conclusion of BoM that it was Kelsier), he says the Sovereign told them he had come from the Northern Hemisphere "where he had been your god before becoming ours" while wielding all 16 powers for both Allomancy and Hemalurgy, leading Wax and Co. to think it was somehow Rashek reincarnated, trying to "do better" than he had as The Lord Ruler with a new group of people.

Who then left them with legends (oral stories) about the Bands of Mourning that could grant those powers to any who "wore" them, that he'd put in a temple with his priests, etc.

The reason I pictured Kelsier thereby having a "direct hand" is by Allik's own account of his people's history with The Sovereign, is that the Sovereign ruled them like TLR had done in the North, for around a hundred years, right? That's a lot more direct than what he did as "The Survivor", which was to inspire the skaa to stand up to the Inquisitors and to TLR, and then to die for them, and have a kandra reappear as him.

(Of course it has crossed my mind that "The Sovereign" in the South was also a kandra, but let's take things at somewhat face value for now...)

I don't think he's lied to the GBs about "not having his powers" (of a Mistborn), or indeed any Invested powers, other than knowledge. Maybe he has, but on screen, we haven't seen any GB seem to expect him to "do something" other than give direction.

Or perhaps he DOES wield some kind of Invested power from being a Splinter of Preservation and having that spike through his eye, we don't know, except that he's not an Allomancer any more/at present as of the end of TLM when he meets with Harmony.

Since he DOES arrive to the GB safehouse to meet with Marasi later in TLM, and he seemed pretty frustrated with not being able to be there in person "for another 12 hours"  in that seon chat, I see no reason to doubt his statement, and again the other GBs didn't seem surprised that he'd be coming from the South via airship ("he went WHERE?", "He's in a WHAT now?"). I think, or at least we're supposed to think (and I do think), that they DID know he was there, if not the 100% accurate reason why, and that it's not an isolated event.

And finally, yes I did assume the airship he was on, was one of the large military grade ones capable of long flight. We've only ever seen those as being capable of trans-hemispheric flight, smaller ones like Wilg in BoM were not capable of that. So on top of imagining him in such a large airship, I also imagined there being at least a small, trusted crew flying it (that he wasn't operating solo). And that probably couldn't take off without being noticed, unless it was disguised as a ship doing something else (though with the state of relationship between the Malwish and the Basin leadership, it seemed like all civilian or mercantile flights from the South had been grounded).

If you thought his final comment on how he couldn't get there any faster because saying "I'm traveling over water, and so can't go much faster than I currently am. Dropping things off to Steelpush off doesn't do much with an ocean underneath you" implied he personally was or could be flying with Steelpushing, no, I read that as the airships flying via mechanical Steelpushing (which we already saw in BoM was in part how they functioned, using "ettmetal" and "primer cubes").

(We should probably take this discussion over to the Mistborn forum though, it's getting way tangential to "Open Questions from Isles of the Emberdark", LOL.)

1. He may have been more involved sitting up their government then he was the government then he was sitting up the government in a post Lord ruler. But I didn’t get any indication from that that he was still involved in it. He seemed like a legendary figure one talked about in my myth anything else. 
 

2. You may not have a read the wob but Brandon Sanderson was very clear. He is lying to the ghost bloods about not having his power.

 

3. Given that he lied to them in that very conversation about being able to travel via coins I have no reason to think that he was telling the truth about being in the south. More likely this is an excuse made up to. He was probably closer by, but had to come up with an excuse as to why he didn’t just use his powers to get there since they don’t know he doesn’t have his powers.

 

 

4. “We've only ever seen those as being capable of trans-hemispheric flight, smaller ones like Wilg in BoM were not capable of that.”

We have? I don’t remember them saying anything like that in bands in morning but then again it’s been many years since I’ve read the book. 

5. It just doesn’t make sense for the ghost bloods to be so secretive for 1/2 of Scadrial and so open with the other one.

6. Back to ember dark though. I would like to also point out that we don’t know the effects of the ghost blood civil war it could easily be that Ghost bloods are dramatically, reduced by the time of era 4 

[+robardin he/him]

4 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

2. You may not have a read the wob but Brandon Sanderson was very clear. He is lying to the ghost bloods about not having his power.

3. Given that he lied to them in that very conversation about being able to travel via coins I have no reason to think that he was telling the truth about being in the south. More likely this is an excuse made up to. He was probably closer by, but had to come up with an excuse as to why he didn’t just use his powers to get there since they don’t know he doesn’t have his powers.

Ha, no, I do not recall any such WoB, and that's certainly not something obvious from the text

Interesting, guess I'll look in the WoB archive in the Arcanum

EDIT: and there is is, whoah

Quote

Sethcran

When Kelsier said in The Lost Metal that he couldn't Steelpush over water, do the Ghostbloods think that Kelsier has his Allomantic powers, and is he lying to them about it?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, they think he has Allomantic powers still.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

 

Edited July 22, 2025 by robardin

[bmcclure7]

4 hours ago, robardin said:

Ha, no, I do not recall any such WoB, and that's certainly not something obvious from the text

Interesting, guess I'll look in the WoB archive in the Arcanum

EDIT: and there is is, whoah

 

The big mystery of course is why And how he is doing this.

 

Going back to ember dark I wonder if the Ghost bloods were in the book and we just didn’t realize it. Like what if some randoms that were introduced and then disappeared. We really ghost blood agents too paranoid maybe

[Nitpicking]

On 7/21/2025 at 4:36 PM, QuantumAce said:

Yeah, I've been wondering if the books will ever revisit Kelsier's connection to Ruin. What if Discord results in Saz completely losing control of Ruin, with Kelsier just hanging out nearby? A cognitive shadow shouldn't be able to pick up a shard, but even a Kelsier shaped hole in the ground would make a perfect vessel for Ruin. 

Yeah, a Cognitive Shadow can't pick up a Shard. That's why Taravangian failed to pick up Odium and went directly to the Beyond.

And why Kelsier totally failed to pick up Preservation between the Leras' death and Vin's becoming available and didn't wield Preservation's power against Ati and Ruin at all. Don't forget that Kelsier is already a Sliver.

[QuantumAce]

17 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

Yeah, a Cognitive Shadow can't pick up a Shard. That's why Taravangian failed to pick up Odium and went directly to the Beyond.

And why Kelsier totally failed to pick up Preservation between the Leras' death and Vin's becoming available and didn't wield Preservation's power against Ati and Ruin at all. Don't forget that Kelsier is already a Sliver.

I don't think most of that is accurate, which is why I never said a cognitive shadow cannot pick up or temporarily hold a shard under any conditions. I could have worded it better, but "I know someone who has been an established cognitive shadow for several hundred years and temporarily held an opposing shard and is currently held together with duct tape and hemalurgic spikes should not be able to pick up a shard and wield its power as effectively as someone with an undamaged and unmodified physical body...", but that felt clunky. 

Was Taravangian a cognitive shadow at the moment he killed Rayse? I thought Odium pulled him into the spiritual realm before Taravangian actually died, but I do not remember anything definite either way. 

Kelsier had trouble holding the power pf Preservation, but I wasn't sure whether it was the cognitive shadow thing, or his connection to Ruin. I wonder if being a sliver of Preservation would now interfere with his ability to hold Ruin. 

[alder24]

14 hours ago, QuantumAce said:

Was Taravangian a cognitive shadow at the moment he killed Rayse? I thought Odium pulled him into the spiritual realm before Taravangian actually died, but I do not remember anything definite either way. 

No, he's not considered a Cognitive Shadow.

Spoiler

R'Shara (paraphrased)

Would Szeth, Wax, and Taravangian be considered fully alive, or are they considered Cognitive Shadows?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They would be considered alive.

R'Shara (paraphrased)

Even with what happened when Taravangian Ascended?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, he still counts as a fully alive person holding the Shard. He won't have the same trouble as a Cognitive Shadow holding a Shard.

The Most Boring Book Ever release party (Sept. 24, 2024)