QF75: Aftermath: ■■■■■■■■■

[StrikerEZ he/him]

58 minutes ago, ThatOneWorldhopper said:

That would be great, thanks!

I am very sad I didn't get to role-playing this time, though. 

It’s alright. Most of the time I tell myself I’ll RP more during the next game and never do lmao. I get too focused on trying to solve the game or trying to not get exed.

3 hours ago, The Unknown Order said:

Reading the elim doc, and only just now realized Striker was making accurate and detailed vcs for the elim doc and just happened to post them for us too.

You’re welcome for that by the way. I was hoping that would give me subconscious village points because why would an elim put all that effort in and help the village?

2 hours ago, BigBadBagsworth said:

That'd be awesome.

over the course of 9 days, I have fallen in love with SE

I’m glad you love it! This was definitely a great game for your first one. I look forward to seeing you in future games! It was fun to play with you!

[Kasimir he/him]

11 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

You’re welcome for that by the way. I was hoping that would give me subconscious village points because why would an elim put all that effort in and help the village?

It didn't give you subsconscious Village points with me. The bro points were doing the heavy lifting

Actually I was like "do I really wanna exe him and lose the vote counts."

[StrikerEZ he/him]

24 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

It didn't give you subsconscious Village points with me. The bro points were doing the heavy lifting

Actually I was like "do I really wanna exe him and lose the vote counts."

You know what, I’ll take it

[Aeternum]

Subs in -> has 2/3 PoE -> calls PoE 1/3 at best -> calls e!Iced town -> dies

ggs! Hope everyone had fun, and I hope to see all of you around again in future games! Thanks for GMing!

[StrikerEZ he/him]

3 minutes ago, Aeternum said:

Subs in -> has 2/3 PoE -> calls PoE 1/3 at best -> calls e!Iced town -> dies

ggs! Hope everyone had fun, and I hope to see all of you around again in future games! Thanks for GMing!

Lmao, but I’m glad you got to play!

[Lord Spirit he/him]

5 hours ago, Kasimir said:

 I think we seem destined to be on opposite sides a lot, but watching your Elim game develop has been impressive and I think we'll both feel excited when the day comes when E!you just dogwalks V!me.

I keep getting elim. I’ve only gotten normal town once, so I’m not very good at acting like it. 

There was actually a mistake that resulted in me not getting a PM at the start of the game, so I messaged Jo and said “I’m assuming I’m village, right?” Nope. I’m a bit torn because I do like being an elim, but it’s less stressful when I’m village and don’t have to worry about dying.

Nice to know I’ve progressed from “suspicious, vote him out” to “PoE, he hasn’t done enough to help”. 

I kept wanting to give advice that would help the town, then stopping myself because it would mess up the elims plans.

[KaladinsSenseOfHumourSpren He/Him]

That was a nice game! Even though I was only in it for 1 turn. 

[Jo and the Bush all/any]

56 minutes ago, Lord Spirit said:

There was actually a mistake that resulted in me not getting a PM at the start of the game, so I messaged Jo and said “I’m assuming I’m village, right?” Nope. I’m a bit torn because I do like being an elim, but it’s less stressful when I’m village and don’t have to worry about dying.

I should have doublechecked the names. LordSpirit =/= Lord Spirit

Such a tiny difference.

[Jo and the Bush all/any]

I never really know how to type up my thoughts at the end of a game. I really liked running this game. It was a blast to run, and to test various ideas in. 

What did we learn?

I learned that tie-massacres are amazing. 5 people executed in a single cycle is wonderful, but also massively balance affecting. I’m not certain if it actually changed the path the game took, or simply sped it up by 4 cycles, but losing that many players at once, some of them who had very little analysable interactions, was definitely a blow to the village. 

One of the reasons I like ties working like this, is the lack of RNG. I don’t people to live or die based on a coin flip. I want it to be completely predictable. I don’t actually like RNG outside of the initial boundaries of the setting up the game. It makes it harder to plan or predict, and it feels worse (to me) to lose or win based on luck. I prefer my games to either have all RNG, or no RNG. Give me hyper chaos or give me determinism.

But I don’t actually want a 5 way tie to kill 5 players. Something I mused about in the Spec doc was a tie triggering a sudden death round. If an execution ends in a tie, there is a 24 hour mini round without powers or roles, in which votes can only be cast for the tied contestants. If there is a tie in this round, everyone does still die, but at least now the player base chose it, instead of it being manipulated by soothers. I think this bears experimenting with. Expect to see it in a game I run eventually, unless someone wants to test it for me. 

What else did I learn?

I learned that clear inactivity filters are a must. I didn’t like having to judge halfway through a game when to replace someone. YEVAD and THE DEMON (Cool band name btw) both lost the ability to access the 17th Shard due to internet restrictions. Because the possibility of them getting access back existed, I didn’t immediately replace them. I had pinch hitters lined up, but I really didn’t want to use them and risk the Capital bros coming back and being disappointed. So I delayed for as long as I thought reasonable, and Demon got executed, and Aeternum came into the game with enough votes on them to immediately get caught up in the amazing Penguin Massacre. Thank you for stepping in Aeternum, your actions did alter the course of the game, even though you were in it for 24 hours. I wish you could have played longer, and I wish that Hoid Slayer could have played with you, but Demon got executed. It was the right play, but it was rude.

If I had had objective criteria with which to replace inactive players, a lot of my stress about interfering would have been gone. I don’t like making judgement calls about that kind of thing in the middle of play.

Also, on the topic of the Massacre and inactivity, I do need to apologize to Aster publicly. Aster is new to this forum. They didn’t know how to get from thread to thread. I had been linking the next thread in the previous every turn, up until 3/4 or 4/5 or so. Aster would have been active, and absolutely would have voted, potentially preventing the Massacre completely, except that I had forgotten I had established a precedent. Partially that is on me, partially that is on Aster, and partially that is really not something to be blamed on anyone, just a weird circumstance. I’m not sure how I would prevent such occurrences in the future, except to not add Quality of Life improvements to my game? IDK.

What else did I learn?

I confirmed my theory that the Eliminators do not need a kill to be powerful or findable. They just need some way to affect the game that is obviously them. I don’t think they ever felt weak or impotent due to the lack of kill, and I also really like how it completely changed the dynamic of who lived or died. There is no way Kas would be among the survivors if the Elims had a kill. I absolutely want to have more games without an Eliminator kill. 

The Eliminators also didn’t feel very strong. I had thought that their power would grow as the game went on, erasing 1 vote in the first cycle, 2 in the next, until they were erasing 10 at once in the endgame. I failed to properly simulate a game while balancing it, or I would have realized that. When I was running the numbers in the Elim doc before the game, my numbers were hyper idealized. I even adjusted them at one point to be more realistic, and they were still hyper idealized. I’m glad the elims did this good, but I’m not certain they were properly balanced against the village. I’ll need you all to replay this game at least 15 more times to be sure.

Finally, I learned that I really like experimenting with Votes.

I really liked how votes accumulate. It never got as bad as I had assumed it would, but it still made each execution a little bit different. When I had first planned out this game, I had pictured people accumulating a dozen votes by the time they were eventually executed, without really doing the math or simulations to realize that it was always going to be only a handful at most, since whoever had the most votes would die and take them out of the game. 

(Side note, run off execution game? If the person you want to execute doesn’t make the cut, your vote instead goes towards your second most sussed player? I’ll need to run that next.)

What did end up happening was most executions having some clear choices to them. It was rarely a case where anyone could be executed, it was usually ‘who has enough votes already to be in danger’. And that was delightful to me, especially at the end, when Kasimir and Lord Spirit had one and none votes respectively, though Kas was never a suspect. Man got a single vote on Turn 1, then never again.

I do think that the idea of mandatory voting is interesting, but I wouldn’t combine it with cumulative voting again. It caused inactivity problems, which I will discuss later.

I think next time I run an experimental voting game, I will instead have votes carry over, in that if you vote for Alvron, but he lives, your vote remains on Alvron until you move it or he dies. There is still some staying power, but not accumulative power. That also feels more true to the situation.

Post-Script

I am still terrible at not talking in my player’s PM’s. I need to chill. I don’t think I affected the course of the game at all, but I did type up and then erase a lot of PM’s.

I wanted to transcribe Kas and TUO’s PM for people to read, but I can’t find a good way to do that.

Post-post-Script

I just realized that canonically, Striker is still alive. He got put in a cell instead of squished or forgotten. lol.

[Through the Living Hopper He/Him]

What a speech. I'm honestly kind of sad that the game's over. I genuinely feel like I made some true Shardbuddies over these few days. I would say that I'll miss all of you, which I will, but I'll definitely talk to you a lot more.

[Kasimir he/him]

6 hours ago, KaladinsSenseOfHumorSpren said:

That was a nice game! Even though I was only in it for 1 turn. 

RIP, sorry, should've saved you, just really wanted Polly dead that turn

1 hour ago, A Jo in the Bush said:

I am still terrible at not talking in my player’s PM’s. I need to chill. I don’t think I affected the course of the game at all, but I did type up and then erase a lot of PM’s.

I've got the same problem. There's a balance I think. Though I know some players think it's a highlight of the specific GM. I didn't find your commentary distracting, and it was pretty funny.

1 hour ago, A Jo in the Bush said:

I wanted to transcribe Kas and TUO’s PM for people to read, but I can’t find a good way to do that.

It's thankless yeah. Hreo just c/ped each message as a quote and put them in a Google Doc for QF6. You might remember that one, you were a god-tier Seeker and we had a team-up since I was the Tineye

But anyway for the benefit of everyone else - it was probably 90% PtV calculations, some 'can we save Polly yeah no sorry she's dead' and some screm when I was tired and lazy and told TUN "I bussed the mfer" forgetting that TUN would probably reasonably read it as referring to this game and giving him an unnecessary heart attack

1 hour ago, A Jo in the Bush said:

I learned that clear inactivity filters are a must.

Honestly I think TUN and I and everyone in that committee PM can take responsibility for this - a QF usually has a standard inactivity filter and we forgot to check for that because we were a bit too preoccupied with the voting segment of your ruleset.

1 hour ago, A Jo in the Bush said:

It was the right play, but it was rude.

Sorry  I just kind of really V!read Aster so wanted to roll the dice for Demon.

1 hour ago, A Jo in the Bush said:

I confirmed my theory that the Eliminators do not need a kill to be powerful or findable. They just need some way to affect the game that is obviously them. I don’t think they ever felt weak or impotent due to the lack of kill, and I also really like how it completely changed the dynamic of who lived or died. There is no way Kas would be among the survivors if the Elims had a kill. I absolutely want to have more games without an Eliminator kill. 

The Eliminators also didn’t feel very strong. I had thought that their power would grow as the game went on, erasing 1 vote in the first cycle, 2 in the next, until they were erasing 10 at once in the endgame. I failed to properly simulate a game while balancing it, or I would have realized that. When I was running the numbers in the Elim doc before the game, my numbers were hyper idealized. I even adjusted them at one point to be more realistic, and they were still hyper idealized. I’m glad the elims did this good, but I’m not certain they were properly balanced against the village. I’ll need you all to replay this game at least 15 more times to be sure.

Yeah, that's partly the dynamic I was a bit concerned about though I'm not sure how well the Mercy worked. I don't think my performance in this game was particularly good for a bunch of reasons including ongoing health woes and I guess just not being in the zone (came off a disaster game before this too) but I think, like, on paper, if the Elims can't just exe IDK, peak Aman, and peak Aman stays alive to endgame, that's automatically pressure on the Elim team, and that's something that as you say, shifts the dynamic of the game, but I also then feel that the Elim team just needs the thread skills to deal with that pressure with one of their key tools for dealing with problem Villagers gone. And that can be a tough ask depending on who you've got.

I do think the ties helped in combination with the cumulative votes due to the ability to carry out the Penguin Night Massacre. My read is that their best PtV was a bit off because of Spirit's timing, tbf so in the end, I don't know it was super imbalanced. I do think it was swingy to some extent but that's the nature of the beast when ties kill and it coming down to the wire is usually a good thing.

1 hour ago, A Jo in the Bush said:

I’m not sure how I would prevent such occurrences in the future, except to not add Quality of Life improvements to my game? IDK.

Tbf I think this was...like almost everyone made it (including Triple B, KSauce, etc.) But I do feel bad for not PMing Aster to check in on what was happening since we already had a PM anyway. I was just kind of overwhelmed with RL hospital woes so I forgot about that and just assumed Aster would show up eventually.

[The Unknown Medallion he/him]

1 hour ago, A Jo in the Bush said:

wanted to transcribe Kas and TUO’s PM for people to read, but I can’t find a good way to do that.

I could do this if you'd like, or you could with this technique.

It looks ugly as all get out, but using the little quote button, the plus next to the word, you can collect a whole bunch. These collected quotes will stay with you through thread changes. So you can just go down the convo clicking the button, then go to the thread and click "Quote X Posts"

[KaladinsSenseOfHumourSpren He/Him]

It's time to finish what I started

The universe is mostly deterministic, except on quantum scales. Quantum mechanics is the only randomness.

Free will is an illusion either way. Everything any of us ever do or think, including me posting this, was decided by a quantum dice roll.

 

Also, I just gained 6 rep overnight... playing SE has made me a Babsk. Although I don't think I qualify as one, seeing as I've only played one game...

Edited May 30, 2025 by KaladinsSenseOfHumorSpren

[Kasimir he/him]

3 hours ago, The Unknown Order said:

It looks ugly as all get out, but using the little quote button, the plus next to the word, you can collect a whole bunch. These collected quotes will stay with you through thread changes. So you can just go down the convo clicking the button, then go to the thread and click "Quote X Posts"

Pretty sure he'll hit the post limit so he'd have to split it up. But yeah.

[Jo and the Bush all/any]

2 minor issues with attempting that, 1, when you quote a post, it doesn't include the quotes already in the post, and 2, I had been hoping to put it in a doc, but IDK. I'll try it.

 

Inside this spoiler is the last 50 messages of that PM, where they analyze their path to victory,

Spoiler

On 5/27/2025 at 12:35 PM, The Unknown Order said:

There's no way for that to happen. Striker is done for unless literally everyone voted for me.

I just redid everything, will post in thread in a bit, but you and me both need to vote Spirit for a foolproof PtV.

 

On 5/27/2025 at 4:59 PM, Kasimir said:

Mind showing your working?

 

On 5/27/2025 at 9:23 PM, The Unknown Order said:

So votes are currently me, TOW, Spirit, you

2-1-0-1

There are 4 votes today (there's actually Striker to contend with too, which I forgot about originally. We might be screwed if he votes me with Spirit)

We can assume the elim candidates vote for each other, asking them to do otherwise (them voting themselves would actually be better for vote erasure) likely wouldn't work. 

I'll only show the world I found to be winning for brevity. You and me vote Spirit.

2-2-3-1

A vote is erased. The most that can be erased from anyone is 1. Assume e!Spirit soothing self for now.

2-2-2-1

There are still 4 votes available. Me and TOW are actually functionally the same here but I'll assume votes on TOW.

2-3-3-1

You and me vote just Spirit.

2-3-5-1

Two votes can be soothed.

2-3-3-1

Both are exed, resulting in a win. (After recalculating that, I think we're safe if Striker votes me, that just means you're last man standing)

Now let's back up to the start of next cycle.

2-2-3-1

Assume e!Spirit still, frames TOW with the Soothe.

2-1-3-1

They vote eachother (Spirit voting me here would reveal himself leading to an easy 2-1-5-1)

2-2-4-1

We double up on TOW because we think he's elim.

2-4-4-1

Spirit has to sooth self or die. TOW dies.

2-2-1

You and me both vote Spirit, Spirit votes me.

3-4-1

Spirit soothes, we both die, you're last one standing. (In this scenario, a Striker me vote would result in you v Spirit, but you'd win because it would be 3-2)

Back once again.

Assume TOW elim, assume he soothes himself for now.

2-1-3-1

They vote each other, exactly zero reason to do otherwise here, unlike the other one.

2-2-4-1

You and me double up on TOW for the tie.

2-4-4-1

One vote can be removed.

2-3-4-1

Spirit is exed

2-3-1

Three votes. It's clear who's elim

3-5-1

Win. (Spirit on me results in you being LMS again)

Let's back up to the start of next turn again, assume e!TOW, assume frames Spirit.

2-2-3-1

2-2-2-1

They vote each other, me and Spirit functionally the same but assumes votes go to Spirit for simplicity. 

2-3-3-1

You and me vote both for the tie.

2-4-4-1

TOW self soothes to stay alive.

2-3-4-1

Spirit dies.

2-3-1

You and me vote TOW, TOW votes me.

3-5-1

TOW can soothe two votes 

3-3-1

We both die, you're last man standing. (Striker on me results in you v TOW, but you still win as long as we alternate votes properly)

I'll also add that Jo has given a tentative v!win to everyone dies, which thankfully does come up in this scenario. It did in the other one.

Real quick because it scares me and I didn't think it through previously, what if Spirit is e and last minute votes me?

2-1-0-1

3-1-3-1

Spirit can soothe at most one vote

3-1-2-1

We know Spirit is e because of their treachery ( ) and they continue to vote me

4-1-5-1

Best they can soothe is two.

4-1-3-1

I die.

1-3-1

You both vote Spirit.

1-5-1

They can soothe two again.

1-3-1

Victory. 

Let's assume e!TOW swaps onto me for completions sake.

2-1-0-1

3-2-2-1

TOW can soothe themselves. 

3-1-2-1

We still have four votes available. We know TOW is elim. TOW votes me.

4-3-2-1

TOW can soothe one vote at most.

4-2-2-1

I die.

You pile on TOW.

4-3-1

TOW can soothe two.

2-3-1

Spirit dies.

2-1

You vote for TOW, I think they can only soothe one.

2-2

Both die, tentative win. But just in case, at least one of us should be ready at rollover to switch. Assuming we both can (I can for sure)

2-1-0-1

3-3-0-1

TOW can soothe one.

3-2-0-1

I die.

2-0-1

You both pile onto TOW

4-0-1

TOW votes you and self soothes two votes 

2-0-2

Spirit is last one standing.

Now lets see what happens if TOW switches and only one of us catches it.

2-1-0-1

3-2-1-1

Soothe

3-1-1-1

We know it's TOW, TOW votes me

4-4-1-1

TOW can soothe two.

4-2-1-1

I die.

2-1-1

You pile on, TOW votes you so I don't have to worry about vote erasure edge cases that would only be good for us.

4-1-2

TOW can erase two.

2-1-2

Spirit is last man standing.

And I think that's it. Wow. It's hard to juggle those terms. I might have gotten the names confused a few times, but the numbers should be right.

There's only one potentially dangerous world in all of those, and Jo said tentatively it's a win for us.

Glad I went through those though, means we have them as a guide (like, us switching which of the two we vote for each turn matters a lot)

I could probably post this to the thread, but I'll wait for you to okay that. I'm going to post that an elim voting me is the only PtV for them (it isn't really, but maybe they'll believe and do it early, and it will discourage the v!one voting me).

Ninja'd by TOW so that might have been prophetic.

Edit: it wasn't thank goodness

Edit 2: Wait shoot Striker

Okay okay

2-1-0-1

Striker and TOW both vote me, you and me don't switch.

4-2-2-1

They soothe TOW.

4-1-2-1

I die.

1-2-1

You both vote TOW.

3-2-1

Two votes can be soothed.

1-2-1

Spirit dies.

1-1

That's a loss. Uh. That's not good. 

We better be online let's calculate that.

2-1-0-1

Striker and TOW vote me, one of us switches. 

4-3-1-1

One can be soothed.

4-2-1-1

I die.

2-1-1

You both vote TOW.

4-2-1

Two can be soothed.

2-2-1

Both die for the win.

So as long as one of us can switch in time we're good. I think that's everything now. E!Spirit switch scenario has tolerance for a Striker vote.

 

On 5/27/2025 at 9:32 PM, Kasimir said:

Ninjaed how? Sorry, still processing. Do you feel you prefer to post this or not? I'm trying to follow the moves but may need to take a nap first as I'm exhausted and the hospital crap was draining. I'd say exercise your best judgement on whether to or not but I will be on in two hours' time, just need some recovery first. 

@The Unknown Order - Btw why is this true? I could see Striker voting even if it softclears one player for us as there are still two others. Also with what's been said in thread, I doubt there will be more Striker votes so how does Spirit, who has zero, get to three votes?

 

On 5/27/2025 at 9:36 PM, The Unknown Order said:

Yeah, sorry about the legibility. 

I'm going to opt for not showing the elims their PtV, since one does exist if we get unlucky.

I'll see you in morning, good luck getting better. I find hospitals draining even when they say there's nothing wrong, so godspeed. 

Well, I did consider them not voting for each other later, but there's no reason for a v!Spirit/TOW to vote anyone but their counterpart. 

The three comes from you, me, and the other villager.

Striker is only ever actually counting in some of the last scenarios, as he doesn't affect anything outside of those edge cases.

 

On 5/28/2025 at 6:15 AM, A Jo in the Bush said:

I'll hard confirm this now. Araris has agreed with my reading of the rules. If no one is alive, that is a victory for the Village.

 

On 5/28/2025 at 6:18 AM, Kasimir said:

Thank you. Then technically all I have to do is make sure I'm the last to die or take the last Elim down with me in true pyrehawk fashion

 

On 5/28/2025 at 7:19 AM, Kasimir said:

Which world are you playing for at the moment?

 

On 5/28/2025 at 7:27 AM, The Unknown Order said:

A TOW is soothed world. It's not necessarily e!indicative for TOW, but we play it the same either way.

Specifically, this section of the scenarios. 

Striker did vote me so it's 

3-1-3-1

3-2-4-1

3-4-4-1

3-2-1

4-4-1

3-2

Or it's 

2-1-3-1

3-2-4-1

3-4-4-1

3-3-4-1

3-3-1

3-5-1

4-4-1

Win.

 

On 5/28/2025 at 7:30 AM, Kasimir said:

This assumption being that say, E!Spirit soothes:

for example instead, yeah?

I'm leaning to an E!Spirit world for the record, but I assume you suggest this play because it's longer but theoretically mech-guarantees a victory as long as you're not maf.

Well, maybe. If you're Elim you would have to switch at EoD, I might or might not catch you, then we go 2-1 and you win.

Though I've already rethought it and still feel you're more Villagery than the other two, so I'm just going to have to commit.

 

On 5/28/2025 at 7:36 AM, The Unknown Order said:

If I'm elim, I do none of these calcs outside of the elim doc and advocate voting the player with the highest votes always.

Uh, dunno. The new numbers were just the old numbers with one added to my train.

It shouldn't matter, cause it would go

3-4-4-1

3-2-1

4-4-1

2-2

Mutual destruction.

I'm least confident with my who can be soothed assessments, since I was essentially juggling everything else in my head while playing hackysack with who can be soothed.

 

On 5/28/2025 at 7:39 AM, Kasimir said:

I'm guessing:

We both vote TOW, they vote each other. We look at a 4/4 tie.

TOW (4): Spirit, Spirit, Kas, TUN
Spirit (4): TOW, TOW, Kas, TUN

Elim Soothes two votes off themselves I'm supposing.

Say for the sake of argument it's E!Spirit. TOW gets exed.

World One:

Spirit has 2 votes. 

TUN (3): Striker, Striker, Spirit
Spirit (2): TUN, Kas
Kas (1): Tinwatcher

I and TUN vote Spirit, Spirit votes TUN and Soothes two of our votes.

TUN (4): Striker, Striker, Spirit, Spirit
Spirit (2): TUN, Kas, Kas, TUN
Kas (1): Tinwatcher

TUN is exed. I vote Spirit.

Spirit (3): TUN, Kas, Kas, TUN, Kas
Kas (2): Tinwatcher, Spirit

Am I drunk or does this world already immediately lead to an E!Spirit win? Spirit just Soothes TUN here. We lose.

World Two:

Spirit Soothes one vote for supposition.

Spirit has three votes.

Spirit (3): TOW, TOW, Kas, TUN,
TUN (3): Striker, Striker, Spirit
Kas (1): Tinwatcher

TUN and I vote Spirit. A cancel here still leads to TUN being exed.

Spirit (3): TOW, TOW, Kas, TUN, TUN, Kas
TUN (4): Striker, Striker, Spirit, Spirit
Kas (1): Tinwatcher

Spirit (3): TOW, TOW, Kas, Kas
Kas (1): Tinwatcher, Spirit

The crossvote here means we both die and the Village wins.

 

On 5/28/2025 at 8:14 AM, The Unknown Order said:

TUN: Striker, Striker

TOW: Spirit

Spirit: TOW, Kas, TUN

Kas: Tin

~

TUN: Striker, Striker

TOW: Spirit, Spirit, Kas, TUN

Spirit: TOW, TOW, Kas, TUN

Kas: Tin

~

TUN: Striker, Striker

TOW: Spirit, Spirit, Kas, TUN

Spirit: Kas, TUN

Kas: Tin

~

TUN: Striker, Striker

Spirit: Kas, TUN

Kas: Tin

~

TUN: Striker, Striker, Spirit

Spirit: Kas, Kas, TUN, TUN

Kas: Tin

~

TUN: Striker, Striker, Spirit

Spirit: Kas, Kas, 

Kas: Tin

~

Spirit: Kas, Kas

Kas: Tin

That's worst case world. But I think we can fix it by

TUN: Striker, Striker

TOW: Spirit

Spirit: TOW, Kas, TUN

Kas: Tin

~

TUN: Striker, Striker

TOW: Spirit, Spirit, Kas, TUN

Spirit: TOW, TOW, Kas, TUN

Kas: Tin

~

TUN: Striker, Striker

TOW: Spirit, Spirit, Kas, TUN

Spirit: Kas, TUN

Kas: Tin

Me voting myself here, counterintuitive as it may sound.

~

TUN: Striker, Striker, Spirit, TUN

Spirit: Kas, Kas, TUN, 

Kas: Tin

Well no that wouldn't work either.

That's not good.

Let's back it up.

What if you vote for Spirit today.

TUN: Striker, Striker

TOW: Spirit, Spirit, TUN

Spirit: TOW, TOW, Kas, TUN, Kas

Kas: Tin

So Spirit dies either way, if e TOW dies too, assume TOW elim now

~

TUN: Striker, Striker

TOW: TUN

Kas: Tin

~

TUN: Striker, Striker, TOW

TOW: TUN, TUN, Kas

Kas: Tin

Or 

TUN: Striker, Striker

TOW: TUN, TUN, Kas

Kas: Tin, TOW

Soothe for the win.

So it kinda looks like we need to pick right here.

We can exe e!Spirit, or we can exe e!TOW.

Wait can we even exe e!TOW

TUN: Striker, Striker

TOW: Spirit

Spirit: TOW, Kas, TUN

Kas: Tin

~

TUN: Striker, Striker

TOW: Spirit, Spirit, Kas, TUN

Spirit: TOW, Kas, TUN, TOW

Kas: Tin

~

TUN: Striker, Striker

TOW: Kas, TUN

Kas: Tin

Shoot

What if we tell Spirit not to vote 

~

TUN: Striker, Striker

TOW: Spirit, Kas, TUN

Spirit: TOW, Kas, TUN, TOW, Spirit 

Kas: Tin

~

TUN: Striker, Striker

TOW: Kas, TUN

Kas: Tin

~

TUN: Striker, Striker, TOW

TOW: Kas, Kas, TUN, TUN

Kas: Tin

Okay back back what if we get Spirit to vote you 

~

TUN: Striker, Striker

TOW: Spirit, Kas, TUN

Spirit: TOW, Kas, TUN, TOW 

Kas: Tin, Spirit 

~

TUN: Striker, Striker

TOW: Spirit, Kas

Kas: Tin, Spirit

~

TUN: Striker, Striker, Kas

TOW: Spirit, Kas, TUN

Kas: Tin, Spirit

Okay so we're kinda screwed in an e!TOW world.

I'd have to get him to do some last minute voting to get him to soothe you instead of me to give you a chance in the endgame.

 

On 5/28/2025 at 8:25 AM, Kasimir said:

Where does this come from? You currently have three votes on you.

 

On 5/28/2025 at 8:37 AM, The Unknown Order said:

Me being stupid.

God.

I need to take a break and come back later.

This is why I was using numbers.

 

On 5/28/2025 at 8:39 AM, Kasimir said:

Yeah, fair enough. Until then, I'm going to holding vote on Spirit as my leading E!read - I think the fact you have three votes makes this tricky as an endgame.

 

On 5/28/2025 at 9:19 AM, The Unknown Order said:

@The Unknown Order [ 3 ]:  Negative_Null (T1), BigBadBagsworth (T2), Lord Spirit (T2), StrikerEZ(T4), Lord Spirit (T4), StrikerEZ (T7)
@ThatOneWorldhopper [ 1 ]: IcedOutPenguin (T1), Lord Spirit (T7)
@Lord Spirit [ 3 ]: Negative_Null (T3), The Unknown Order (T7), ThatOneWorldhopper (T7), Kasimir (T7)
@Kasimir [ 1 ]: Tinwatcher

Simplify

TUN 3 Striker, Striker, Spirit

TOW 1 Spirit

Spirit 3 TUN, TOW, Kas

Kas 1 Tin

What if

~

TUN 3 Striker, Striker, Spirit

TOW 3 Spirit, TUN, Spirit

Spirit 4 TUN, TOW, Kas, Kas

Kas 1 Tin

~

TUN 3 Striker, Striker, Spirit

TOW 3 Spirit, TUN, Spirit

Spirit 2 TUN, TOW, 

Kas 1 Tin

And that's a win because we die and

~

Spirit 2 TUN, TOW

Kas: Tin, Spirit

Mutual death.

So with our votes how they are currently, it leads to a win in case of e!Spirit, what about e!TOW

TUN 3 Striker, Striker, Spirit

TOW 3 Spirit, TUN, Spirit

Spirit 4 TUN, TOW, Kas, TOW

Kas 1 Tin

~

TUN 2 Striker, Striker, 

TOW 1 TUN, 

Kas 1 Tin

~

TUN 3 Striker, Striker, TOW

TOW 3 TUN, TUN, Kas

Kas 1 Tin

Loss.

So it seems like no matter what we do, e!Spirit dies and e!TOW can win with perfect play.

So if your credences are right, we win. If not, we likely lose. Unless e!TOW makes a mistake.

 

On 5/28/2025 at 9:24 AM, Kasimir said:

Do we then just smite Spirit or TOW and hope for the best?

 

On 5/28/2025 at 9:44 AM, Kasimir said:

If we hardcommit today, we can exe the Elim even if it's TOW, I believe?

 

On 5/28/2025 at 10:56 AM, The Unknown Order said:

That's not what I'm seeing. E!TOW would have to mess up, which isn't impossible I suppose.

If Spirit is the last elim, it doesn't matter what we do. Go after TOW, vote Spirit, split the votes, Spirit always dies sooner or later. But even if we go after TOW full tilt, he would have to miss play.

If we want to have a chance at getting an e!TOW, we have to vote TOW this turn, but if we vote TOW, e!Spirit lives for an extra turn.

I'll put the decision in your hands, my vote is on TOW. I'm not willing to put all of my chips in on Spirit when he dies either way.

 

On 5/28/2025 at 11:01 AM, Kasimir said:

I think your plan assumes V!TOW is on board. There's a world where you have just managed to so successfully spook TOW that TOW votes you no matter what.

Edited to add:

My judgement from TOW's posts is that you're getting to that point because TOW is simply not willing to accept dying for the team (or because he's Evil.)

 

On 5/28/2025 at 11:05 AM, The Unknown Order said:

If TOW's v and votes me, and you vote TOW, that makes it...

4-4-3-1, no?

2-1-0-1

3-1-3-1

4-4-3-1

Yeah it does. Tbh, that's a fully acceptable world. That might even be fine in a e!TOW world...

4-2-3-1

2-3-1

4-4-1

2-4-1

2-1

Not sure about the Soothe there but that might be a win.

Same as any other e!TOW world tbh.

 

On 5/28/2025 at 11:07 AM, Kasimir said:

But then my voting TOW doesn't help us in E!Spirit worlds, no? I feel like we're becoming way too fancy at this point and are overlooking something.

 

On 5/28/2025 at 11:13 AM, The Unknown Order said:

E!Spirit always dies.

Look

3-1-3-1

We vote TOW and TOW votes Spirit

3-4-4-1

E!Spirit soothes two.

3-4-2-1

TOW dies

3-2-1

Oh, yeah. If we want Spirit dead we have to decide now. Okay then. I'm going to switch. 

 

On 5/28/2025 at 11:16 AM, Kasimir said:

3-2-1

You and I vote E!Spirit, but this means E!Spirit has two votes from one of us remaining, I'd assume? So net difference is still two. You die.

2-1 

E!Spirit and I crossvote. 3-2, Spirit Soothes, if that's a 2/2 world then we win, if it's 2/1, E!Spirit wins?

 

On 5/28/2025 at 11:18 AM, The Unknown Order said:

Yeah, I didn't play it out because I didn't track who voted who, but there's no reason Spirit can't soothe two there.

You know when you do a math problem twice to double check, and you get different results, then you do it again to figure out which one was correct, and you get a third, different answer?

That's how I feel rn.

 

On 5/28/2025 at 11:22 AM, Kasimir said:

Yeah, same ngl.

 Let me work through the flow a bit more.

Matches.

We vote TOW, TOW votes Spirit. (I'm wondering here what happens if Spirit and TOW both converge on you but I'll worry about that later.)

Spirit has to Soothe TOW here.

You and I vote Spirit. Spirit votes you.

Spirit Soothes either your vote or mine. Let's assume yours.

You die, Spirit is on 2 votes.

I then lose the face-off because Spirit has three Kas votes so the Soothe removes all of them at once.

 

On 5/28/2025 at 11:26 AM, The Unknown Order said:

There is some hope with those endgames, since they pop up several times. If I hold my vote back until last minute, and they get scared and soothe your vote instead, you could win with a tie I think, but it would require trickery from us and a missplay from them.

I think you can still win in an e!Spirit world, but have no chance in an e!TOW world.

 

On 5/28/2025 at 11:28 AM, Kasimir said:

Hold back for today, yeah?

Would've been nice if the Elims'd had the courtesy to have just killed me early, so much for bros  I'm starting to get a headache from this, hbu  

 

On 5/28/2025 at 11:33 AM, The Unknown Order said:

No, the cycle before... lylo let's call it. The penultimate cycle. 

To think, Jo could have just given them a normal kill and we wouldn't have to deal with this nonsense.

I don't think I even had to think this hard for Fifth’s chess game. This is insane.

 

On 5/28/2025 at 11:38 AM, Kasimir said:

Lylo-1? Lol.

Lol. Well, I guess we really should've kept Polly alive, but yeah that's just rough since to do that we'd've to vote Triple B I think. We picked up on the Soothing rule too late.

Are you gonna be upset if, in the world TOW is just too paranoid about you to do much, I just focus on driving everyone onto Spirit? I do have E!Spirit credences, am not sure if this loses the game for us, but basically I'm trying to avoid a world where they go into paranoia overdrive and try to kill you. 

I'm trying to game this one out if I can, yeah.

Edited to add:

Gaming it out.

Suppose I vote Spirit, you vote TOW, and they both vote you.

Natural place here is to Soothe the Kas votes I guess.

So suppose TOW and I vote Spirit. Spirit votes TOW? 

Natural Soothe point here is TOW. So TOW dies.

Then:

We cross-vote. Spirit Soothes me to win.

Let's go back to the beginning and assume E!TOW.

TOW Soothes the TUN vote IMO. Better to leave the Spirit vote for a bigger Soothe.

You die, we go into the next Turn.

Spirit and I vote TOW (this assumes I cotton on, which I may not as I still don't believe E!TOW and am not sure a Soothe there would change my mind.) Suppose also TOW votes me (may not happen tbf.)

Then, TOW Soothes the two Spirit votes for a single Kas vote left. This is endgame. I'm screwed.

Take a step back. Suppose Spirit votes E!TOW and I vote V!Spirit. 

Spirit dies and TOW self-Soothes. We lose.

Take another step back. Suppose TOW votes Spirit due to not being able to justify a vote on me and hammer.

Same problem. Spirit dies, TOW goes down to two Spirit votes which can be Soothed next cycle, while I still have a Tinwatcher vote.

 

On 5/28/2025 at 12:07 PM, Kasimir said:

Tbh this game is just cursed

It's one of my all-time worsts and I'm sitting through a lylo no matter what? Get outta here

 

On 5/28/2025 at 12:16 PM, A Jo in the Bush said:

I'm so glad I ran this game instead of playing it.

 

On 5/28/2025 at 12:27 PM, The Unknown Order said:

And you thought I was wrong for thinking the elims couldn't exe you

I would be happiest with this, period. It's not technically optimal I think, but the scenario it's not optimal in is the scenario in which we're pretty much screwed anyways.

How did you manage to make this more complicated than the KKC with two paragraphs!?!?

 

On 5/28/2025 at 12:33 PM, Kasimir said:

I do think I was exeable, I just also think it condemns me to deal with this lylo now

Why so?

ikr.

Reminds me of Drake's multiverse time travel game which fits onto one page.

 

On 5/28/2025 at 12:42 PM, The Unknown Order said:

E!TOW is worst case, and voting for Spirit makes it worse, but making a near automatic loss worse isn't really that bad. 

To be fair to KKC, the actually complicated parts could fit on one page, there's just a lot of fluff.

 

On 5/28/2025 at 1:09 PM, Kasimir said:

Ah, fair.

And brokenness...

 

On 5/28/2025 at 1:46 PM, A Jo in the Bush said:

I think I can actually answer this to be honest.

I limited the number of variables, and removed all random chance. That means that, technically, this game is completely ordered. Every option can be predicted, controlled for, or planned for. 

Technically, all games can be plotted for, but the sheer number of variables makes it untenable to do so.

Curently, you all have 5 variables this turn to account for. Who each of the 4 players will vote for, plus who the eliminators will sooth. 

The actual number of outcomes of this cycle is high, but the plausible ones that you can control for are low enough that it is actually worth the effort to attempt to do what you are doing. (It is unlikely for any player to self vote, it is unlikely for the eliminators to sooth a player who has not voted on a living player. (4 players, each with 2 to 3 options of whonthey mught vote for. 1 eliminator, with 6 plausible option of who to vote. Call it 6*2.5^4 possible outcomes, or 234))

In games with lots of moving parts, chaos and player choice create too many permutations. This game is simpler, from a mathematical perspective, but it feels more complocated because it's simple enough to create true desicion trees.

 

I'm not actually certain of the factual logic of this, but it is what I relaized a few turns ago when I started simulating the likely outcomes of this game prior to the Penguin Massacre. 

 

On 5/28/2025 at 3:30 PM, Kasimir said:

@A Jo in the Bush TUN and I have found some scenarios where E!TOW would need to play imperfectly to lose.

Your wincon states that the Village loses if we cannot win through perfect play on our parts. How would you rule about those scenarios?

@The Unknown Order - I think this point is really crucial because if it requires perfect play, then we might very well lose the moment this scenario materialises, in which case the chance TOW screws up doesn't matter.

 

On 5/28/2025 at 4:00 PM, The Unknown Order said:

I think if the answer here is yes, we just go all in on Spirit. Which I kinda want to do anyway tbh.

 

On 5/28/2025 at 4:01 PM, A Jo in the Bush said:

Getting a Eliminator to engage in Imperfect play is a valid strategy on the Village's part. The village loses basically when the votes are too stacked for it to be possible to even execute an inactive Elim. Right now, there are still worlds in which you win, ergo, you have not lost.

 

On 5/28/2025 at 6:55 PM, Kasimir said:

Ah, okay, got it, thanks!

 

On 5/28/2025 at 8:25 PM, Kasimir said:

Are you willing to switch if TOW refuses to vote by EoD? Does this alter the scenarios?

 

On 5/28/2025 at 9:16 PM, The Unknown Order said:

It does, but I don't think e!TOW actually doesn't switch here. It would be insane. 

I'll switch in the morning, probably regardless of what TOW does. 

 

On 5/28/2025 at 9:21 PM, Kasimir said:

Doesn't switch...?

 

On 5/28/2025 at 9:48 PM, The Unknown Order said:

There's no way e!TOW leaves his vote on himself.

Kas, you're digging a tunnel to America ( ), but I'm 73% sure you're also correct in your tunnel.

 

On 5/29/2025 at 12:21 AM, Kasimir said:

Fair, yeah to the first, which means if there's no switch, we should probably pre-empt that.

Yeah, that's my worry, I kind of am afraid I'm tunnelling. My reads this game have been... well. 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

23 hours ago, Kasimir said:

I'm actively surprised still no TOW vote.

I'm also entertained that I forwent a TJ and Striker bro arc to do one with you instead this game.

 

23 hours ago, The Unknown Order said:

They betrayed the village, what could you do?

It's confirming e!Spirit for me.

 

23 hours ago, Kasimir said:

Well we were due a Village bros arc sometime so I'm not complaining.

Agreed. Watch TOW hammer right after I say this...

 

 

[Kasimir he/him]

On 5/29/2025 at 3:07 AM, Kasimir said:

Tbh this game is just cursed

It's one of my all-time worsts and I'm sitting through a lylo no matter what? Get outta here

I was cooking here

[The Unknown Medallion he/him]

Of course you chose the last fifty where I couldn't plan out votes to save my life

Couldn't you have done the section where I pegged TJ and Striker and convinced Kas they were elim?

[Jo and the Bush all/any]

First off, you can always add quotes yourself. Feel free to post the receipts for your bragging rights

Second off, I was posting the bit that was actually interesting with regards to the mechanics of this game, plotting a path to victory,

Third off, well done, you've very smart. Have a kudos.

[The Unknown Medallion he/him]

15 minutes ago, A Jo in the Bush said:

First off, you can always add quotes yourself. Feel free to post the receipts for your bragging rights

Second off, I was posting the bit that was actually interesting with regards to the mechanics of this game, plotting a path to victory,

Third off, well done, you've very smart. Have a kudos.

This feels angry for some reason. 

[Jo and the Bush all/any]

51 minutes ago, The Unknown Order said:

This feels angry for some reason. 

Now see, i was smiling when I wrote the first two lines, then reread it, and also felt that it sounded angry. So I added the third line, hoping that would be enough to make it sound amused instead of angry.

So you're not the only one that feels that way. I think it is the phrase "feel free", combined with the "First off, second off," because both of those phrases are most often used when angry, but in this case, it was genuinely just chill.

[|TJ| he/him]

Firstly, I had a lot of fun plotting with my docmates, and I wanna thank Joe for running the game. 

I'll come back to this again when I'm less busy to talk about how I felt as an elim about the rules. 

Loved seeing so many new faces and I hope to see you all again soon! 

[al_lan_mandragoran]

Hi - I noticed this is the most recent Quick fix

I've been wanting to join Sanderson Elimination - does anyone know when the next Quick fix will be?

[Kasimir he/him]

25 minutes ago, al_lan_mandragoran said:

Hi - I noticed this is the most recent Quick fix

I've been wanting to join Sanderson Elimination - does anyone know when the next Quick fix will be?

Currently a Long Game is ongoing. The Quick Fix and Mid-Range game formats alternate, so once the Long Game ends, the next game is likely to be a Mid-Range. Claincy and I are on top of the list for that, but if we're not ready, it'll be someone else. 

Something like LG -> MR -> LG -> QF. We don't really have the numbers to overlap them too much right now so we're aiming to just reduce gaps. If you only want to play in a QF, do you want someone to ping you when a QF is ready to run?

[al_lan_mandragoran]

I'll play a MR or a QF. I'd prefer a QF, but either is fine.

3 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

do you want someone to ping you when a QF is ready to run?

If someone could ping me when the next MR or QF is, that would be great. Or perhaps you could tell me if there is a way to set up that kind of notification.

Also, where do the SE signatures come from?

[Kasimir he/him]

1 minute ago, al_lan_mandragoran said:

If someone could ping me when the next MR or QF is, that would be great. Or perhaps you could tell me if there is a way to set up that kind of notification.

There's a notification on Discord, but you mentioned not doing Discord, so it's fine, we'll just ping you. It's possible to subscribe to the forum, but then it's a pain because you'll get pinged with every post from the ongoing game which isn't ideal.

3 minutes ago, al_lan_mandragoran said:

Also, where do the SE signatures come from?

The signatures come from this post on the art/memes thread.