Long Game 104: The Flame of Tar Valon

[Aeternum]

Stilling allows TUF to be voted out now. That's why we wanted him Stilled during the night, so that now he can get voted out.

[Terrisman]

Retracting my vote for TUF and voting for ThatOneWorldhopper. This is such a crazy NK it makes me think we need to look at the rookies

Spoiler

Yeah I know I’m a rookie but I don’t think any of you would think I would make a mistake like that

 

[Steeldancer he/him]

Tsk killing the brand new player? Especially one I was fairly certain was village, and hadn't had a real opportunity to play yet due to IRL stuff? Not cool, elims. I'm genuinely OOG a bit disappointed in you guys. 
Also, if TUF is elim, we do still need to kill him. That is the village win condition, to kill all the Black Ajah. While he might not be an immediate threat, he will still need to be dealt with permanently if that is the case. 

Edited March 25, 2025 by Steeldancer

[Through the Living Hopper He/Him]

2 minutes ago, Terrisman said:

This is such a crazy NK it makes me think we need to look at the rookies

Like I said, I'm worried by this kill. If you think about it logically, why would I kill a new player? I wouldn't want the same for myself, and honestly, I don't think that this was a rookie that did this. I'm worried about doing this game right (how many questions have I asked?), and I've mostly been trying to learn the rules. Look at my past posts. I've known all about this rule of not killing the newbies, and I think any newbie would be very focused on the rules. But the experienced players would just be trying to win, and the most experienced ones might have forgotten how it felt to be a new player. It's between Terrisman and TUF.

6 minutes ago, Terrisman said:

Yeah I know I’m a rookie but I don’t think any of you would think I would make a mistake like that

This is your argument? I vote Terrisman. I'm kind of leaning toward TUF, though, so if @Terrisman  can come up with a better argument than this, I'll vote TUF.

[Steeldancer he/him]

1 minute ago, ThatOneWorldhopper said:

But the experienced players would just be trying to win, and the most experienced ones might have forgotten how it felt to be a new player. It's between Terrisman and TUF.

I disagree with this sentiment. Most of us older players aren't just playing to win. I hope. The general consensus among more experienced players is to let new players survive so they can have a good time as well, and stick around in the community. Killing them N1 is actively antithetical to that. All of us have had our first game, and having that one be a fun one is a good way to keep this community alive and well. 

[Through the Living Hopper He/Him]

You're right, I just can't figure it out, because it seems unlikely that either group would do this. I thought that the older players would be more likely, though.

Perhaps... When in school, I remember that as 8th graders, we would always tease the seventh graders, calling them sevvies. Maybe the perp is someone who has played one or two games and has won them, leaving them feeling like they're good at this game and, like we thought the sevvies were a waste of space, feeling like new players are worthless and corrupting the game. 

Does anyone else want to look through all of the past games for me? I'll give you an online high-five!

[Steeldancer he/him]

Thankfully for the sanity of us all, we aren't middle schoolers 
Edit: Maybe I can sort of think of a reason for the kill? It's possible that the kill was decided to be pointed towards a player not in any documents the elims were in. Which I will happily claim, is my own. 
YOU KILLED MY (checks notes) MY AJAH SISTER. THERE WILL BE RETRIBUTION. Before John flees from the tower anyway. He still has a sense of justice and responsibility!

Edited March 25, 2025 by Steeldancer

[Through the Living Hopper He/Him]

It was more symbolistic, giving an example of that mindset. 

I'm not suggesting anything else from that, sorry elims! Even they don't deserve that insult.

[Steeldancer he/him]

John frowned at the body of his Ajah sister. She had actually been against voting for him, worried about the infiltration of the Black Ajah. Weirdly, he had trusted her for that conviction. 
And now she was dead. 
Perhaps... perhaps fleeing could wait. Sure, he didn't want to be in charge. He didn't ask to be a channeler, or to hide among the Aes Sedai. But these women... they had trusted him. Perhaps their trust had been misplaced, since he was hiding his true identity as a man. But he still wanted to do right by them. 
He straightened, and spoke up, using his most commanding, but still feminine, voice. 
"This is an outrage. This is now war within the tower. I want to believe that none among you would have done this to their sister." He looked at their eyes, seeing a measure of hope in them that he could solve this. He laughed a little at himself. As if he'd be able to fix anything. But, well, he'd do his best to not let them down. "We're going to find the rest of those Black Ajah, and then we're going to make them wish they had never started worshipping the Dark One over the bonds of us within the Tower. We're supposedly the best at logic; so then let's get to it. We find the traitors, no matter what lengths we must go to in order to do so."
The Aes Sedai before him let out a small cheer, breaking their normally taciturn expressions. It was time to fight back. 
And then after that, hopefully everyone would be a bit too busy cleaning up to notice when John made his rapid escape from the city. 

[Through the Living Hopper He/Him]

Alkarii bowed his head. All lives meant something. He wept, not just for the fallen Aes Sedai, but for the exiled Black Ajah member, for had their life gone differently, they wouldn't have suffered this fate, though deserved.

But the others, those within the tower...

Alkarii lifted his tear-cleaned face to the forlorn sky.

Vengeance, he thought. They will pay.

And with this solemn promise, made to the indifferent heavens, he raised his fist to the dead Aes Sedai.

You have done us a service, oh honored one. 

He swept his cloak and stalked inside.

You have given me a reason to fight.

Edited March 25, 2025 by ThatOneWorldhopper
Last few paragraphs and grammar.

[Terrisman]

41 minutes ago, ThatOneWorldhopper said:

Like I said, I'm worried by this kill. If you think about it logically, why would I kill a new player? I wouldn't want the same for myself, and honestly, I don't think that this was a rookie that did this. I'm worried about doing this game right (how many questions have I asked?), and I've mostly been trying to learn the rules. Look at my past posts. I've known all about this rule of not killing the newbies, and I think any newbie would be very focused on the rules. But the experienced players would just be trying to win, and the most experienced ones might have forgotten how it felt to be a new player. It's between Terrisman and TUF.

This is your argument? I vote Terrisman. I'm kind of leaning toward TUF, though, so if @Terrisman  can come up with a better argument than this, I'll vote TUF.

I’m a sitter. 

[Through the Living Hopper He/Him]

I can't do this.

This has happened thrice already.

Terrisman

[Ashbringer he/him]

Well... haven't seen that happen since a certain mechanical incident. And this is not that, likely.

I will note, just because I've had the thought myself - sometimes it's hard for returning players like me or Steel (or to a much greater degree, Joe/Gaea) to tell who's a brand new player versus a somewhat-newer-but-not-brand-new player vs something else. I thought Mark was a newer player myself, instead of a greatly-returning player.

... that doesn't really hold when Teldris had seven posts, though.

 

Hmm. Let's try to do the thing that I'm allegedly good at, then 

Wiz, TwinStorm, Aeternum, Ash, Steel, Kas, TUF, Worldhopper, Drake, Mark, BridgeBoi, Terrisman, Sart, STINK, Gaea, Jo

I'm going to kick a few out here - if it's E!Kas I'll eat my hat, and Drake fully wasn't on this Night turn despite the game having inactivity penalties - and also I think fundamentally neither would kill a new player (more on that later though).

Wiz, TwinStorm, Aeternum, Ash, Steel, TUF, Worldhopper, Mark, BridgeBoi, Terrisman, Sart, STINK, Gaea, Jo

That's a lot of people! So let's sort people into some arbitrary buckets.

In terms of experience, Wiz, Ash, Steel, TUF, Sart, and STINK (and Kas/Drake) are experienced players. TwinStorm, Worldhopper, BridgeBoi, and Terrisman are much newer players. Mark, Gaea, and Jo are returning players. (Aeternum is... I think experienced/returning? But in a similar space as Mark where I'm not really sure how much in either category.)

In terms of other things - Wiz, TwinStorm, Ash, Steel, Kas, TUF, and Worldhopper all commented on how weird it is to kill a brand new player D1. Aet, Sart, and BridgeBoi instead commented on the kill being a notable low-info or unexpected without directly commenting on the new-player aspect. Terrisman didn't comment at all at first, then noted that they wanted to go for the rookies / interacting with Worldhopper who's been defensive about this. (Mark and STINK haven't been online, and Gaea and Jo instead just haven't posted yet.)

I could make a reads bucket, but that wouldn't be arbitrary, would it.

Teldris shares an Ajah with Gaea, voted for STINK, and trusted Sart above Terris/BB/Steel. Not a lot to go off of; not exactly the most direct way for Terris/BB/Steel to get themselves elected to the Amrilyn, and one vote shouldn't be enough to scare off STINK.

So who stands out?

The trick here is to try and make sure I'm not subconsciously going for my own suspects. But of the two newer players commenting on the kill of a newer player - TwinStorm's is much more an echo of other player's comments, while Worldhopper's are much more self-defensive. Aeternum also feels like someone who would comment more on these.

I want to go into some older games to see how some of the more experienced players actually act around newer players while Elim. I do know that, despite other things, it's pretty easy for Elims to try and use new players' newness to their own gain (read: my first game I got PMed by 2 elims asking for claims). But for now... I'm honestly inclined to believe Wiz, Steel, and TUF. Steel's was a bit over the top but also he's a Sitter lol. TUF is still suspicious from D1, IMO, but this... I don't think for this unless he honestly is going for Randomness and got a bad draw twice.

TwinStorm, Aeternum, Worldhopper, Mark, BridgeBoi, Terrisman, Sart, STINK, Gaea, Jo

Honestly, again, Worldhopper feels genuine. Gaea I'm not so certain - depends somewhat how dead their doc was - but I don't think Gaea would kill a new player and their Docmate without a good reason. (Whoever's Gaea's Sitter, if you think there is a reason, would be good to know). And STINK, honestly, doesn't seem the type for now.

TwinStorm, Aeternum, Mark, BridgeBoi, Terrisman, Sart, Jo

I like this divide. Jo doesn't seem the type either, but low-info would help him if getting Amrylin is the plan. The others could do a few things.

I'll vote Aeternum.

 

Also because NKA relies a lot on player lists, and it's still there - @|TJ|, the player list is still pinging Exp and not Aeternum.

[Aeternum]

53 minutes ago, ThatOneWorldhopper said:

Like I said, I'm worried by this kill. If you think about it logically, why would I kill a new player? I wouldn't want the same for myself, and honestly, I don't think that this was a rookie that did this. I'm worried about doing this game right (how many questions have I asked?), and I've mostly been trying to learn the rules. Look at my past posts. I've known all about this rule of not killing the newbies, and I think any newbie would be very focused on the rules. But the experienced players would just be trying to win, and the most experienced ones might have forgotten how it felt to be a new player. It's between Terrisman and TUF.

This is getting into wolfy self awareness imo.

Would like to note I do not think the NK is clearing for anyone who would say they would not make that kill. I agree that it's a bit disappointing to kill a new player and know that it's a bit of an unspoken rule that the veteran players likely know, but... it's a) just not clearing lol, and b) really should not be read into in that way.

In terms of elim motivation behind the kill - I can think of several reasons (wifom, fine with threadstate, etc) and don't really know how I'd read into the NK off of that. There is a very high possibility the NK was chosen to throw us off and keep our focus on that, shrugs.

In my opinion, it is pure wifom to argue "well I would never make that kill for xyz reason". Unless you'd like to argue it is clearing because they strongly townread you, which no one can argue here.

3 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

Aeternum is... I think experienced/returning?

I play extensively offsite. This is like my vacation home from a busy city job 

[Ashbringer he/him]

10 minutes ago, Aeternum said:

I play extensively offsite. This is like my vacation home from a busy city job 

Ah. That makes sense with what I’ve seen, yeah. (And is also it’s own weird category of mafia-experienced but perhaps in a different meta… maybe. Not hunting new players feels fairly universal?)

[Kasimir he/him]

4 hours ago, Sart said:

I view killing as a respectful gesture. If you've done something worthy of killing, that means you're doing great in your first game. However, this wasn't my doing. It would be flattering if this was an attempt to frame me. I'm wondering if this was a mechanical kill. Surprised they didn't go after Gaea at that point though.

This is just such a strange response. Why is it mechanical - was Teldris somehow mechcleared? How would Teldris be mechcleared? Moreover, considering how bleargh Raven felt about getting C1ed by you, I'm surprised you can deflect the fact it's a player who got N1ed on his first game and just focus on the idea it's an honour. That's directly against what SE is supposed to stand for.

4 hours ago, The Wandering Wizard said:

Going to vote TUF, feels well within his meta to me.

This is also such a weird response. Wiz because it's too early to lock on anyone. TUF is notoriously a threat killer, minus the odd Winzik QF. I don't know he'd go for Teldris of all people.

2 hours ago, The Unknown Flame said:

Really? You think I would kill a newbie? @Kasimir can back me on at least this. I'm very attentive about not killing newbies and returning players.

Oh okay. Honestly I think you could've been overridden by a teammate on this. I know you're willing to yield the kill. But I would definitely not say the kill points to you. I kinda think it doesn't. 

1 hour ago, Steeldancer said:

Especially one I was fairly certain was village

Why does everyone make me want to vote them? I'm curious why you're fairly certain Teldris was Village, given Teldris didn't give anyone much to work off. This just...feels so weird and makes me wonder if that's TMI overcredencing.

12 minutes ago, Aeternum said:

Would like to note I do not think the NK is clearing for anyone who would say they would not make that kill. I agree that it's a bit disappointing to kill a new player and know that it's a bit of an unspoken rule that the veteran players likely know, but... it's a) just not clearing lol, and b) really should not be read into in that way.

Worked pretty good in MR67 ngl. Knowing who respects that in general and who doesn't, not based off what they say but their track record with it helped us narrow down to the Elims via NKA.

Edited to add:

With the way some of you are going on, I'm legit wondering if Teldris posted his GM PM to the thread or something and I missed the drama.

[Aeternum]

2 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

Ah. That makes sense with what I’ve seen, yeah. (And is also it’s own weird category of mafia-experienced but perhaps in a different meta… maybe. Not hunting new players feels fairly universal?)

(Not as much as here from what I've seen, kind of depends on the site - people elsewhere do like giving newbies space, but will still ruthlessly murder them )

6 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Worked pretty good in MR67 ngl. Knowing who respects that in general and who doesn't, not based off what they say but their track record with it helped us narrow down to the Elims via NKA.

Not against NKA in that form mhm.

I do think the kill is kind of wifom meant to distract because it's likely just a low info kill.

[Steeldancer he/him]

1 hour ago, Ashbringer said:

Steel's was a bit over the top but also he's a Sitter

He was also IN MY AJAH. 

1 hour ago, Kasimir said:

Why does everyone make me want to vote them? I'm curious why you're fairly certain Teldris was Village, given Teldris didn't give anyone much to work off. This just...feels so weird and makes me wonder if that's TMI overcredencing.

Because he was IN MY AJAH. Sorry I thought I made this clear earlier. His behavior in the document was hyper villager. He deliberately created a 50/50 between Gaea and I in order to reduce the chances of a black ajah becoming sitter, which I totally missed until later on. That, and I also weirdly trusted him for not being totally willing to trust me? So when I listed the two members of my Ajah as being major trusts, he was the one I listed as fairly certain being village, and Gaea being probably village unless they're pocketing me and bussing so hard that I... well it's improbable. 
Edit: note that I also mentioned IRL stuff which he didn't mention in thread, I think. He was on a vacation and was planning on being more active when he got back. So, I feel a mild amount of anger is justified. 
Also, I'm always over the top. Please, please stop thinking its alignment indicative. It's not, its just me being me. I would think if you'd played with me before you'd know this... 

Edited March 25, 2025 by Steeldancer

[Kasimir he/him]

30 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

Because he was IN MY AJAH.

Oh, okay. Actually that's interesting as a NKA dimension—this means the kill hit White Ajah rather than Green. Might imply infiltrated Green or that the Elims simply don't care very much about Green. Am feeling like it might point to low Elim presence in White though I wouldn't bet the farm on it.

Something to consider about the psychology of the kill on top of what @Ashbringer said: theoretically, killing a new player should point away from a regular player here because they understand it's taboo. At the same time, making a low info kill when being down one Elim is actually pretty cold-blooded—it's not the kind of kill a new and inexperienced player makes. I feel you can get a suspect pool from this profile, just don't have the time to do it this instant. 

33 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

Also, I'm always over the top. Please, please stop thinking its alignment indicative. It's not, its just me being me. I would think if you'd played with me before you'd know this... 

I said overcredencing, not overdramatic. That is, you claimed to have a solid V read on Teldrin despite Teldrin saying little in thread. It made me wonder if that came from an Elim who knew Teldrin's alignment and forgot the thread doesn't know crem.

[Steeldancer he/him]

1 hour ago, Kasimir said:

I said overcredencing, not overdramatic. That is, you claimed to have a solid V read on Teldrin despite Teldrin saying little in thread. It made me wonder if that came from an Elim who knew Teldrin's alignment and forgot the thread doesn't know crem.

That was directed at Ashbringer, not you, you're all good. That post was meant to subtly indicate I was in the same Ajah, then I gave up on that almost immediately since gaea and teldrin had already discussed claiming white lmao

[STINK he/him]

Well there goes my Steel voting idea smh

[Kasimir he/him]

@Steeldancer - I'm curious. If there was seemingly a lot of conversation and trust in your Ajah, how did the tiebreaking onto Polly happen? I note that you and Gaea seemed to be at cross-purposes slightly when voting. 

I am looking at the votes and kill as I have a bit of time tonight but am now considering whether it's worth just voting Drake. Comes down to whether a theory I have about the votes has legs or not.

[TwinStorm He/Him]

7 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

Honestly, again, Worldhopper feels genuine. Gaea I'm not so certain - depends somewhat how dead their doc was - but I don't think Gaea would kill a new player and their Docmate without a good reason. (Whoever's Gaea's Sitter, if you think there is a reason, would be good to know). And STINK, honestly, doesn't seem the type for now.

just confused, didn't Gaea vote for Polly?

[Kasimir he/him]

@|TJ| - Bhai, incredibly lazy question, but will you be sharing the raw votecounts from N1? Presume you have the ones pre-manip or anything.

Edited to add:

@Steeldancer - Apologies for second @. Can you walk me through how this post of Teldris's matches up with his attitude towards you within the Ajah doc?

Just chasing some theories atm.

Edited March 25, 2025 by Kasimir

[|TJ| he/him]

12 hours ago, Sart said:

Working on vote analysis, but noticed something that needs fixing.

@|TJ| Fix your player list please. It still has Experience listed instead of Aeternum.

My bad, I'll edit it thanks!

11 hours ago, TwinStorm said:

@|TJ| can I still use my Ajah ability if TUF gets executed and I'm the only one left?

A player can use their Ajah ability if they are the last person in their doc yes. 

VC from N1: 

Steeldancer (3): Ashbringer, Sart, Joe
Terrisman (3): Aeternum, Steeldancer, BridgeBoi
Joe (3): Kasimir, Mark IV, xxGaea
Sart (2): Terrisman, Teldris Anuar
BridgeBoi (1): TwinStorm