Mixing and splitting Investiture

[Through The Living Grub He/Him]

Two main examples of mixed Investiture for this post: Harmonium and Warlight.

Harmonium has been specifically defined as NOT a mix of Lerasium and Atium, but something else. HOWEVER, you can SPLIT Harmonium into these two things, so which is it?

I just saw a thread about how Roshar's technology will develop without Stormlight, and someone suggested people can split Warlight, which is Retribution's Investiture, but Retribution is Retribution, not Honor and Odium.

Can someone help clear this up for me?

[Lord Ruler Sylphrena He/Him]

58 minutes ago, Xiahida said:

Two main examples of mixed Investiture for this post: Harmonium and Warlight.

Harmonium has been specifically defined as NOT a mix of Lerasium and Atium, but something else. HOWEVER, you can SPLIT Harmonium into these two things, so which is it?

I just saw a thread about how Roshar's technology will develop without Stormlight, and someone suggested people can split Warlight, which is Retribution's Investiture, but Retribution is Retribution, not Honor and Odium.

Can someone help clear this up for me?

This has been a nightmare for me to try and figure out. I would say it's because you can't make Harmonium by alloying Atium and Lerasium. The metal itself is its own thing but the power is an alloy of Ruin and Preservation. My guess is splitting Harmonium splits Harmony's power which destroys the metal and reforms the remaining investiture into Atium and Lerasium. Warlight is weird but its possible light just works differently the godmetals.

[Ashbringer he/him]

Godmetals are technically elemental metals. I believe there is a WoB that harmonium is indeed its own element and not an alloy, and thus can't be separated into atium and lerasium using normal chemical methods, but can via semi-Invested methods.

We never saw Navani or Raboniel break Warlight back down into Stormlight and Voidlight, but theoretically it should be possible. Based on how easy the method is to create anti-Lights, it should be even pretty simple (perhaps inverting only the Voidlight aspect of the Warlight?).

[Qianweilian He/him]

I think it's something similar to how something like Iron is not a mixture or solution of Helium or Hydrogen, but if you broke it apart, you could use the individual components (protons and neutrons) to make Helium and Hydrogen. My theory is supported by the fact that Trellium-induced splitting of Harmonium causes a reaction similar to a nuclear explosion.

[Returned he/him]

There is magic, so we're always going to run into fundamental differences between Cosmere chemistry and real chemistry. Godmetals do not fit into the periodic table (those slots are already taken, absent magic changing the rules) and so no standard, real-world metallurgy or chemistry is going to explain them or how they behave in physical or chemical processes.

Even to the extent mundane explanations apply, just because something is a combination of two things doesn't necessarily mean that it is only a combination of those two things, or that it can be decomposed only into two particular things. Chemical reactions are full of that: different conditions, different reagents, different steps, and you can turn "one" thing into a variety of combinations of other things. Coal and diamonds are the same stuff, but while you might be able to make coal into a diamond I'm not aware of a way to do the reverse. Coal can be burned, diamonds not so much.

What I think Sanderson has meant when he says that harmonium is not just a combination of lerasium and atium is that you can't just melt the latter two metals then pour them together in some fixed ratio to make harmonium. As you've noted, that doesn't tell us much about what we can do with any of these metals. The decomposition into lerasium and atium can work, as we've seen, but seems to require some magical element in the process-- without the magic, whatever resulting compounds you get aren't lerasium or atium. Or at least not fully those things, and not enough to have their most interesting properties.

I think that the implication is that before Sazed took both Shards (during Final Empire, for example) no one would be able to produce harmonium by any means even though lerasium and atium both existed. The advent of a new Shard has changed reality, physically and metaphysically, in such a way that a totally new thing can exist. There is no real-world analogue that can approach that situation, so magic has to fill in the gaps.

Edited February 26, 2025 by Returned

[AlmightyGir]

I think it's *really* important that we make a distinction between godmetals and investiture for the purposes of this discussion.

Tanavastium and Raysium both exist, and one should imagine that Retributonium(lol) would also exist, in the same manner that Harmonium does. But those are not the same things as Storm, Void, or Warlight.

In theory, Retributions metal could also be split into its components the way Harmonium was. But that's not the same thing as splitting or changing the nature of his investiture.

[Ashbringer he/him]

I think you can actually burn a diamond - it's just far harder than burning coal.

Retributium(?) would probably be split via the same trellium method, unless trellium was specifically made for that purpose, but Rosharans may also find a more Invested and less chemical way of doing so. We haven't seen how Tones interact with the god metals.

Warlight doesn't even have a real life analogue in the form of metal - it acts like a gas but also really doesn't at all. But I think it's the easiest one to solve, based on how antiLights seem to act.

(Also, on the topic, don't forget the Well of Control - liquid Investiture. Wouldn't be surprised if the listeners or Mishram figure out something to do with that.)

 

Honestly, one thing that I hope we see in late cosmere is god metals being valued not for their Invested power but for some inexplicable-but-mundane chemical property they have. Imagine lerasium being a room temperature superconductor or tanavastium being used for bulletproof vests.

[Nitpicking]

It isn't especially hard to burn a diamond. (No pun intended.) You heat it up. Regular fires can turn a diamond completely into gas (carbon dioxide). Not a butane lighter, but a blow torch or very hot house fire. The molecular structure of diamond crystals does make them harder to ignite than the other crystal forms.

Signed, used to teach chemistry.

[Dofurion]

14 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

I think it's something similar to how something like Iron is not a mixture or solution of Helium or Hydrogen, but if you broke it apart, you could use the individual components (protons and neutrons) to make Helium and Hydrogen. My theory is supported by the fact that Trellium-induced splitting of Harmonium causes a reaction similar to a nuclear explosion.

14 hours ago, Returned said:

There is magic, so we're always going to run into fundamental differences between Cosmere chemistry and real chemistry. Godmetals do not fit into the periodic table (those slots are already taken, absent magic changing the rules) and so no standard, real-world metallurgy or chemistry is going to explain them or how they behave in physical or chemical processes.

My personal theory is that the god metal atoms are atoms that are not made of:

• Electrons
• Neutrons (down {2}, up {1})
• Protons (down {1}, up {2})

Instead they are made of:

• Muons
• "Neutrons" (strange {2}, charm {1})
• "Protons" (strange {1}, charm {2})

And that harmonium is precisely the equivalent of Cesium but with this change.

[Qianweilian He/him]

I'm not saying that the god metals are made of atoms, just as an example to how Harmonium is not an alloy of Atium and Lerasium. Though that does beg the question, what would a Lerasium-Atium allow do?

14 hours ago, AlmightyGir said:

Retributonium

It would probably actually be called Taravangium or Taravangianium

[AlmightyGir]

5 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

It would probably actually be called Taravangium or Taravangianium

Why? Harmonium isn't called Sazedium.

[dezaS Hᴇ/Hɪᴍ]

2 hours ago, AlmightyGir said:

Why? Harmonium isn't called Sazedium.

Harmonium isn't called Sazedium because Harmony directly intervened: Sazed didn't like the sound of "Sazedium." Per WoB:

Quote

youshallnotpass

Will there be a metal called harmonium in the mistborn world?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO. But good question.

WeiryWriter

Just an fyi but you have confirmed the existence of harmonium before. (And this is probably a RAFO, but is there a reason you didn't follow the convention of the other "god metals" and call it something like sazedium? "Harmonium" just seems out of place.)

Brandon Sanderson

Sazed didn't like the sound of Sazedium.

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 6, 2015)

 

[Steel Speedster ♂]

On 2/26/2025 at 9:36 AM, Xiahida said:

Harmonium has been specifically defined as NOT a mix of Lerasium and Atium, but something else. HOWEVER, you can SPLIT Harmonium into these two things, so which is it?

Physically, harmonium is a pure element, and so cannot be broken down into letasium and atium, but spiritually, it is a mix of Ruin and Preservation’s powers.

[alder24]

On 2/26/2025 at 4:36 PM, Xiahida said:

Two main examples of mixed Investiture for this post: Harmonium and Warlight.

Harmonium has been specifically defined as NOT a mix of Lerasium and Atium, but something else. HOWEVER, you can SPLIT Harmonium into these two things, so which is it?

I just saw a thread about how Roshar's technology will develop without Stormlight, and someone suggested people can split Warlight, which is Retribution's Investiture, but Retribution is Retribution, not Honor and Odium.

Can someone help clear this up for me?

In Cosmere we don't have atoms, we have Axi, and Axi have a third component to it next to matter and energy - investiture, which is the Spiritual component. Lerasium and Atium are investiture condensed into the physical, solid form, which exists in all three realms at once. For Atium, this investiture is tied only to Ruin, for Lerasium it's tied only to Preservation. Axi of those god metals are therefore investiture turned into matter with a very strong Spiritual component and identity, which pierces through all realms. 

Harmonium is the same as Lerasium and Atium - investiture turned directly into matter, a new element with one new Axon, but the Spiritual part of it is tied to and made out of Ruin and Preservation's investiture. If you take a microscope and look directly at Harmonium's Axon, you won't see Axi of Lerasium and Atium making up Harmonium, you will see one element, one Axon. That's why it's not an alloy, it's not like steel, which is made of atoms of iron and carbon, it's like iron which is just iron atoms. However, Spiritually it's two investitures mixed together, investitures that are very unhappy being together and are pushing against each other. When you separate those investitures apart, they will condense into their own separate physical forms and become Atium and Lerasium, despite those metals not being a part of Harmonium in the first place. This is because that investiture is still mainly in the Physical Realm and investiture in the Physical Realm tends to manifest as gaseous, liquid or solid investiture. 

The same goes with Warlight or Towerlight. They aren't made out of two lights, they are one light Spiritually made out of two kinds of investitures tied to different Shards and when you split them apart, they will become their own lights.

Both Harmony and Retribution hold two Shards, those Shards are merged, their investiture seems to be merged too, but on the very fundamental level they are still distinctly separate. Honor's investiture still exists, it's a part of Retribution's investiture, but it would take an effort to separate it. 

Spoiler

Ironeyes

So harmonium, we have a working theory that the reason it's so volatile is because some of the subatomic particles are associated with Ruin and some of them are [of?] Preservation. Is that true?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, that's basically what's going on is that it's creating a very unstable metal. Now, it is in the nature of the Cosmere not a compound but an element. But, you could call it a subatomic particle sure. It's very volatile because it is in nature spiritually in contrast with itself. And so though it is a single element rather than a compound, the spiritual nature is not happy as it is, and you can set up in the physical realm, through reactivity things that would just rip it apart and really your energy is not, your energy in that is actually pulling from the Spiritual realm, and so that's why it can be so much more explosive than even the chemistry would account for.

Ironeyes

So it's not that the subatomic particles are invested, it's that they have a spiritual identity which causes them to...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Ironeyes

So then it's not creating an oxide because after the spiritual energy goes away from the explosion then it's a different metal, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Right, and...

Ironeyes

So you can't find harmonium oxide in the water afterwards.

Brandon Sanderson

Right right right right. Because it's not, it's, yeah. But you might be able to find something else, which is really relevant to the Cosmere. And to Scadrial.

Ironeyes

So the core elements, the core particles, having extra repulsion causes them to have a nuclear potential.

Brandon Sanderson

I would not call it nuclear because it's not the same exact thing. But there is a Cosmere equivalent. To - I mean, you could do nuclear power just the same in the Cosmere, but since we have a third kind of state of matter, right? Matter, energy, Investiture. You have a third axis that, you know, you can release energy from matter, you can release investiture from matter, and things like that. So it's similar, but following its own rules that I have a little more - that are controlled by me, right, that are built on this idea. So once you add *inaudible*, matter now can exist in this third state, you get all sorts of weird things, which one of the things that happens is, you can get an energy release in sort of the same way. A reaction, I'm not going to call it a nuclear reaction, but of the same vein.

Boskone 54 (Feb. 19, 2017)

 

Spoiler

Viper (paraphrased)

So in cosmere, does physics work the same way in the Physical Realm as it does in our world? Specifically, particle physics; and are atoms made up of protons and neutrons and electrons, and is light photons, etc?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Viper (paraphrased)

So what's at the core of an atom of atium? Ate-teum? Also how do you pronounce it? At-teum?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes. And the matter is just normal matter, but it's wrapped in the Spiritual. The Spiritual DNA [or something] is what makes it magical.

A Memory of Light Milford Signing (Feb. 16, 2013)

[OoklaApologist She/her]

On 2/26/2025 at 9:36 AM, Xiahida said:

NOT a mix of Lerasium and Atium, but something else. HOWEVER, you can SPLIT Harmonium into these two things, so which is it?

Think about it like nuclear fission. Uranium-235 isn't a mix of its fission products, it's its own element. Fission is still possible though, when you create it. It doesn't need to be either a mix or its own substance. 

Alternatively, you can cut the back off of a chair, and turn it into a stool and a piece of wood. Before you do that, though, it's a chair, not a stool.

[AlmightyGir]

26 minutes ago, KelsierApologist said:

Think about it like nuclear fission. Uranium-235 isn't a mix of its fission products, it's its own element. Fission is still possible though, when you create it. It doesn't need to be either a mix or its own substance. 

Alternatively, you can cut the back off of a chair, and turn it into a stool and a piece of wood. Before you do that, though, it's a chair, not a stool.

I'm not sure how valid an example this is. And I should be clear here my knowledge of atomic physics isn't the best, but my understanding is that Uranium is easily splittable, because it's an unstable element, but in theory if you knew what you were doing, you could split Iron and get Magnesium and Silicone. The problem is that Iron is very stable.

If we were to apply this (admittedly back of a beer mat knowledge) to the Cosmere and the idea of Axi, we could consider something along the lines of:

• Each Shard has a "Spiritual Weight", this number is to Axi, what electrons are to Atoms.
  • There is already some evidence for this, with some shards favouring some numbers.
• When Shards combine, the new resulting Shard has a new Spiritual Weight.
• You can split the combined Shard's metal, by specifically splitting it's Spiritual Weight.
  • This is likely what happened when introducing Trellium to Harmonium.
• The resulting reaction is incredibly energetic (as seen in real-world fission), and produces two new Axi, each of the original Shards.

In a lot of ways, this makes some sense. But it also leans me towards the idea that the various God metals likely all have the same Axial structure, except for their Spiritual Weights... Meaning that they could all be iron (for example) at their base, but with differing amounts of Spirit attached to them.

[OoklaApologist She/her]

1 minute ago, AlmightyGir said:

I'm not sure how valid an example this is. And I should be clear here my knowledge of atomic physics isn't the best, but my understanding is that Uranium is easily splittable, because it's an unstable element, but in theory if you knew what you were doing, you could split Iron and get Magnesium and Silicone. The problem is that Iron is very stable.

Valid. I just meant it as an analogy, not a 1-1 comparison. 

 

2 minutes ago, AlmightyGir said:

In a lot of ways, this makes some sense. But it also leans me towards the idea that the various God metals likely all have the same Axial structure, except for their Spiritual Weights... Meaning that they could all be iron (for example) at their base, but with differing amounts of Spirit attached to them.

I like this theory. It's a good explanation for the data we have.

[Ashbringer he/him]

1 hour ago, AlmightyGir said:

I'm not sure how valid an example this is. And I should be clear here my knowledge of atomic physics isn't the best, but my understanding is that Uranium is easily splittable, because it's an unstable element, but in theory if you knew what you were doing, you could split Iron and get Magnesium and Silicone. The problem is that Iron is very stable.

Basically - although sometimes replace "knew what you were doing" with "supply an obscene amount of energy". I'm not sure it's been done before, but the methods I think would have been done would need a particle accelerator or something heftier than that.

1 hour ago, AlmightyGir said:

In a lot of ways, this makes some sense. But it also leans me towards the idea that the various God metals likely all have the same Axial structure, except for their Spiritual Weights... Meaning that they could all be iron (for example) at their base, but with differing amounts of Spirit attached to them.

Maybe possible - but also the god metals we've seen have had different chemical properties or appearances, even excluding the alkali-ness of harmonium. Atium is lustrous (specifically a platinum-esque metal), while raysium is golden and trellium is weird and rusty.

But how much impact the Spirit has on that could depend on several things, and the god metals' chemistry is already impossible (based on the spectrographs Wax made) and strangely inconsistent (harmonium reacting with water but not hydrochloric acid, which is in water)