Rosharan Technology

[Cosmer]

With Stormlight's fate tbd...do we anticipate this forcing Rosharans to innovate without the use of Fabrials? Thinking they will need to develop more traditional technology now. But I don't know how their fear / distrust of open flame and fire will slow that process at all. 

 

Harmony clearly is thinking about this issue with Scadrial, so I would think it's going to be massively important for Roshar as well. 

 

Curious if anyone else has already thought through this...

[Entr0pic He/him]

I have a feeling retribution might give nations that serve him some stormlight or voidlight fabrials, (like the ones the fused used in RoW), and let those who don’t invent new tech. Some offworlder groups might get involved, this is probably unlikely. 

[alder24]

Most likely Warlight would be used as a replacement without any issues. However it's possible that to use it you might need Corrupted Spren or something like that, or you might need to use Navani's method to separate Warlight into Voidlight and Stormlight and use Stormlight. Fabrial technology will definitely develop further as Brandon often said that Roshar will develop alternative technology based on Fabrials and magic, while Scadrial follows a more Earthly tech tree.

[bmcclure7]

20 hours ago, Cosmer said:

With Stormlight's fate tbd...do we anticipate this forcing Rosharans to innovate without the use of Fabrials? Thinking they will need to develop more traditional technology now. But I don't know how their fear / distrust of open flame and fire will slow that process at all. 

 

Harmony clearly is thinking about this issue with Scadrial, so I would think it's going to be massively important for Roshar as well. 

 

Curious if anyone else has already thought through this...

Fabrils can still be used in the tower 

[Entr0pic He/him]

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

Most likely Warlight would be used as a replacement without any issues. However it's possible that to use it you might need Corrupted Spren or something like that, or you might need to use Navani's method to separate Warlight into Voidlight and Stormlight and use Stormlight. Fabrial technology will definitely develop further as Brandon often said that Roshar will develop alternative technology based on Fabrials and magic, while Scadrial follows a more Earthly tech tree.

The thing is, how would they get warlight? I assume that the everstorm still gives voidlight, not warlight. 

16 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Fabrils can still be used in the tower 

Still, what about the azish? While the tower could probably fill a part of azir, i would doubt it could hold every azish citizen.

[Knuti]

I do not think that that will be a problem. Fabrials work just fine with Towerlight, so they should work with Warlight too. So everybody has to pray at midnight to Retribution. Only Azir will be cast off. That means they have to trade. They have no rain either, but if I am reading the map correctly, there shóuld be lots of new rivers running through Azir. So they have to invent irrigation very fast and plants should grow much better outside the gloom. Meaning they will have to trade plant products for charged gems.

[OoklaApologist She/her]

7 hours ago, alder24 said:

Scadrial follows a more Earthly tech tree.

To my knowledge, Scadrial doesn't have coal or oil. Their tech tree may be different as well

[dezaS Hᴇ/Hɪᴍ]

5 hours ago, KelsierApologist said:

To my knowledge, Scadrial doesn't have coal or oil. Their tech tree may be different as well

They have coal and oil: they mention gasoline in their cars and Wayne's mother died in a coal mining accident.

[alder24]

21 hours ago, Entr0pic said:

The thing is, how would they get warlight? I assume that the everstorm still gives voidlight, not warlight. 

It gives Warlight now. Every midnight Retribution infuses gemstones left outside by people asking him for light. It was said in Venli's last chapter and Taravangian thought that he still needed to give light to Roshar. 

But because this time it's Retribution who distributes the light, he might choose not to give it to factions not under his control, like Azir or Urithiru. Urithiru still have Towerlight, so they will be fine and their fabrials are still working, Azir however may be left with no light at all. 

19 hours ago, KelsierApologist said:

To my knowledge, Scadrial doesn't have coal or oil. Their tech tree may be different as well

They have oil, just not crude oil, but they are using biodiesel. There were mentions of coal and coal mines in the book so they have some coal deposits, probably created with the world. Scadrial is Earth analog and it will progress technologically very similar to Earth's tech, Roshar will be a magic-tech world.

Spoiler

Cadmium (paraphrased)

You're in Houston, questions of Oil & Gas and energy sources will be naturally be bandied about.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Naturally.

Cadmium (paraphrased)

Is the gasoline on Scadrial a fossil fuel or biodiesel?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Oh. Hmm. Well It's fossil fue... No. What they're using now is mostly biodiesel, I think. It's not something we really talked out.

Cadmium (paraphrased)

Ok, we had a whole thread on 17th Shard and even discussed how scientifically fossil fuels could have been put into place during the Catacendre.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well, fossil fuels are possible, and I don't want to seem like I'm clearly giving credence to those that believe in a Young Earth, but Scadrial is a relatively young planet. Relatively.

Cadmium (paraphrased)

Young Earth doesn't bother me, though I know I'm not the majority.

Cadmium (paraphrased)

Where on Scadrial is it being produced? No mention of refineries in Elendel or the Roughs.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Where on Scadrial... Well it's... I'm going to have to RAFO that for now. It starts to touch on questions of the future as they will need more fuels for travel and they'll need to look for different sources.

Calamity Houston signing (Feb. 24, 2016)

 

Spoiler

Chaos

How much do you plan in the cosmere? There were a few things in Rhythm of War [that went in] a different direction, like anti-Investiture, that black sphere Gavilar had in the prologue being anti-Investiture, and Testament and Shallan, were those always part of the plan or options?

Brandon Sanderson

Those were always options. Anti-Investiture has been pretty core for a long time, there are a couple reasons for this. Number one I need to get certain resources into the cosmere for use in the future, and anti-Investiture is one of those. Another reason is I want to push Stormlight Archive more towards magic-tech, because I'm pushing Mistborn more towards Earth analog with Earth technology and then some cool fantastical things thrown in, but when you're using the technology. When you're using a radio on Scadrial, it's a radio. You know what a radio is. It works based on radio principles, and maybe you can do some wacky things with weight, but an airship is kind of an airship to them where as I want Roshar which is on the opposite end of that spectrum. Where an airship on Roshar is not an airship like you would imagine. Its not being propelled in normal ways it's working off all these weird magical things. And anti-Investiture was an important thing to get into the series for the future for that reason.

From book one I knew I needed magical healing for Roshar, [for] the stories I wanted to tell to work. And I needed some really powerful magical healing. Particularly for the Knights Radiant, because of the stories I wanted to tell, this meant I was going to be very much under cutting the danger of physical violence in The Stormlight Archive as we move forward as the characters became Radiants. It is really hard to kill a Radiant in combat and there need to be foils to that. 

Beyond that from the first chapter of the first cosmere novel Elantris, death has not been the end. [hosts laugh] We start the first book with someone being resurrected. That's one of the main themes of the cosmere is a second chance at life. This is Raoden's story, this is Lightsong's story, this is Kelsier's story, this is a major theme of the cosmere, and I needed to be introducing into the cosmere a "dead is dead" mechanic. And I considered Shardblades for that for a while, before I even released Stormlight. No, it can't be Shardblades, because I can't have every battle - once lots of people have Shardblades then there's no purpose to the magical healing. So I needed another tool for the late part of the cosmere, when people have figured out Cognitive Shadows; How do you destroy a Cognitive Shadow? Well there are ways, but throw some anti-Investiture at them and that's guaranteed, you are gonna kill that Shadow, and I'd been pushing towards where to get this in, and this book felt like the right place. It was either this book or book five, and where it settled into this book is where I finally made the decision that I was gonna let Navani be a main character, which she had been pushing to be for a while, and I'd been pushing back. No, I deserve to have a scientist, an actual straight up scientist main character in The Stormlight who can dig into some of this stuff. I can self-indulge by doing that, as long as I balance it with Kaladin behind enemy lines fight sequences and things, for a more traditional structure. Because Navani's scenes do not have a traditional structure. They're like "we're going to do science now! But we're making up the science also?!"

Shardcast Interview (Jan. 23, 2021)

 

[OoklaApologist She/her]

I remembered wrong. Thank you!

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 2/25/2025 at 8:43 PM, KelsierApologist said:

To my knowledge, Scadrial doesn't have coal or oil. Their tech tree may be different as well

They have coal. Spook agitated among coal miners in Era 1. Probably they do not have oil.

[OoklaApologist She/her]

9 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

They have coal. Spook agitated among coal miners in Era 1. Probably they do not have oil.

Thanks for reminding me!

[+Oltux72 he/him]

Now, for your question, fabrial technology depends on a source of Investiture. Currently on Roshar that means Retribution or the Sibling. If you are talking about outside Urithiru only Retribution. Hence the question you need to answer first would be about the political future of Roshar. Do they collaborate with Retribution causing Retribution to be generous with Warlight? If so, fabrial technology is likely to continue. If not, it seems quite unikely and we are looking at a collapse of civilisation including the death of most of the human population..

[RedBlue]

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Do they collaborate with Retribution causing Retribution to be generous with Warlight? If so, fabrial technology is likely to continue. If not, it seems quite unikely and we are looking at a collapse of civilisation including the death of most of the human population..

Could you elaborate on why a lack of Light would cause mass death? As far as I recall, humans don’t rely on fabrials for food, water or to protect themselves from the elements. Long distance communication will be hit hard, which will likely result in big political and administrative problems, but not on the scale of wiping out most of the human population.

The Listeners use Light to grow food, but nobody else uses that technique as far as I remember.

[Corgen]

2 hours ago, RedBlue said:

Could you elaborate on why a lack of Light would cause mass death? As far as I recall, humans don’t rely on fabrials for food, water or to protect themselves from the elements. Long distance communication will be hit hard, which will likely result in big political and administrative problems, but not on the scale of wiping out most of the human population.

The Listeners use Light to grow food, but nobody else uses that technique as far as I remember.

Without storms, there would be no crem for plant growth.

[RedBlue]

45 minutes ago, Corgen said:

Without storms, there would be no crem for plant growth.

Killing off the plant life would cause total ecosystem collapse, which I’m pretty sure Retribution can’t do without breaking his agreements with various nations. A mass extinction event wouldn’t respect political borders.

[Nitpicking]

8 hours ago, RedBlue said:

Could you elaborate on why a lack of Light would cause mass death? As far as I recall, humans don’t rely on fabrials for food, water or to protect themselves from the elements. Long distance communication will be hit hard, which will likely result in big political and administrative problems, but not on the scale of wiping out most of the human population.

The Listeners use Light to grow food, but nobody else uses that technique as far as I remember.

Post-Retribution, there is no sunlight. The True Everstorm blankets the planet. Plants will only grow through the Surge of Progression. That is: without Warlight, everyone starves. Exceptions: Azir, the floating islands, and Urithuru.

[Cosmer]

8 minutes ago, Nitpicking said:

 That is: without Warlight, everyone starves. Exceptions: Azir, the floating islands, and Urithuru.

Kinda what I was getting at with the original question…feels like they have to have a non Investiture-based technological revolution. Unless the “free” states make a deal with Retribution (which maybe they are more willing to do now that Honor is a part of the equation). 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

16 hours ago, RedBlue said:

Could you elaborate on why a lack of Light would cause mass death?

1. No crem
2. Fields much harder to work during constant bad weather
3. Ecological disruption from species dieing out due to maladaption
4. Crops not adapted to the new weather pattern
5. Shipping is severely impeded
6. Resistances dropping without being flooded in Stormlight

Rosharan crops are adapted to an environment where they become very wet for a short time. They'll probably just rot if it keeps raining for weeks.

Something will be needed to overcome those deficiencies. If that is not Singer growth magic, there will be an issue.

 

[Ashbringer he/him]

I think "plants can't grow without sunlight" is the biggest issue.

However, Retribution also gains very little from having several nations starve to death. I'd expect that anyone can gain Warlight by asking for Retribution's blessing, and the non-Azir nations are all ruled by the singers now anyway, so they'd have growth magic to use as well.

The humans in those nations might have some issues, though.

[bmcclure7]

On 2/25/2025 at 11:02 AM, Entr0pic said:

The thing is, how would they get warlight? I assume that the everstorm still gives voidlight, not warlight. 

Still, what about the azish? While the tower could probably fill a part of azir, i would doubt it could hold every azish citizen.

Given that Retribution is both odium and honor how would his storm not produce anything other than warlight

[Dofurion]

17 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Given that Retribution is both odium and honor how would his storm not produce anything other than warlight

Hybrid Shards can still manifest properties of their components, for example: Harmony can manifest Lerasium and Atium if he so chooses.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 3/3/2025 at 7:36 PM, Ashbringer said:

I think "plants can't grow without sunlight" is the biggest issue.

It is even worse. Rosharan plants retract into shells during a storm. No photosynthesis during a storm. even if some ambient light gets through.

On 3/3/2025 at 7:36 PM, Ashbringer said:

However, Retribution also gains very little from having several nations starve to death.

Several probably not. But making a horrible example of one of them may be attractive an idea to Retribution or his deputy.

On 3/3/2025 at 7:36 PM, Ashbringer said:

The humans in those nations might have some issues, though.

Exactly. Intent matters. You need to praise Retribution to charge your spheres. You probably need to meet a minimum of sincerity in that praise.

1 hour ago, Dofurion said:

Hybrid Shards can still manifest properties of their components, for example: Harmony can manifest Lerasium and Atium if he so chooses.

He has no incentive to do so.

[therunner he/him]

12 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

It is even worse. Rosharan plants retract into shells during a storm. No photosynthesis during a storm. even if some ambient light gets through.

They react to pressure change preceding the storm, it is described in one of the books.

True Everstorm is more "light drizzle" than 'superhurricane', so plants are likely still out. In fact, if all the plants were just gone, you would expect someone from Listeners to comment on that.

Quote

Several probably not. But making a horrible example of one of them may be attractive an idea to Retribution or his deputy.

He has incentive not to do that, as Honor would likely see it as violating the agreement (starving nation to submission can constitute an attack).

Quote

Exactly. Intent matters. You need to praise Retribution to charge your spheres. You probably need to meet a minimum of sincerity in that praise.

Azir can trade for spheres, Listeners are at least neutral, and also have access to Warlight.
 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

2 hours ago, therunner said:

They react to pressure change preceding the storm, it is described in one of the books.

Yes, but they also react to touch. So every time a twig blown on the wind hits a plant there will be a gap in photosynthesis.

2 hours ago, therunner said:

True Everstorm is more "light drizzle" than 'superhurricane', so plants are likely still out. In fact, if all the plants were just gone, you would expect someone from Listeners to comment on that.

Indeed. The question here is crops. Crops are less fit in the wild than wild variants. They depend on humans removing weeds, herbivores and parasites. It also raises the question how Rosharan plants do fertilization and how the fertilizers do under altered conditions.

Also crops are far fewer species. That means there is a higher impact on crops than on wild plants.

EDIT:
Look at how they plant Lavis. They basic glue the spores to a rock.
Is that going to work on permanently wet rock?

Or look at lait, I think they call them. All of Roshar now has a lot less wind. More weeds will grow. More work for weeding. And so on.

Edited March 5, 2025 by Oltux72
added examples