Why must every planet be a representative government

[RefusesToElaborate]

I've spoken about this in many ways in many fictions.

Assuming you're a writer, you are a product of the culture you live in. I'm sorry, I don't believe in Death of the Author, I believe that is a cudgel used to guard elitism and discourage curiosity in people that don't match a lit professors ideas. Art belongs to the unwashed masses. I believe everything we produce has ourselves in it.

You read Lord of the Rings, you see Tolkein at war, baring his soul.

You read Mistborn, and you see messages hiding a hidden world-changing historical account engraved in metal. Yeah, I don't know broski but I'm starting to think Sanderson might be a Mormon.

Now, to relate it to Cosmere politics, Sanderson is a product of a Representative Republic living in one of the most religious subcultures in his nation that was born of rebellion. And true to that form, Sanderson writes about the affairs of republics, revolutions and religions. That is the general aura of his fiction, and you know every writer had one.

It does seem to me that Sanderson does Americanize the political landscape of his worlds. Not to the point where a Bald Eagle perches atop Urithiru, looks at the majesty of democracy in action and awed by the beauty, weeps a solitary tear of KFC gravy while reciting the pledge of allegiance and loading a gun. But enough that I as a non-american can feel the "God, Guns, Government and Gravy" pouring off the page more and more as the story goes on.

Is this a criticism of Sanderson? Yes and no. While I do feel it's a bit weird that the Cosmere trends toward democracy, I also feel like an artist producing art that gels with the culture they live in is simply a given. The standard that you should expect. I'm not going to attack Lovecrafts racism when he was a contemporary of the Holocaust, so to am I not going to attack Sandersons idea of representative government when he is a contemporary of late stage democracy. (Late stage democracy = approval rates couldn't be lower and election rates couldn't be higher. A democracy functioning at its most stable.)

I will say that it makes sense Sanderson does this on a geopolitical level. In real life the only stable governments on a large scale are democracies and dictatorships. Democracy at its most allegedly fair, and dictatorship at its most allegedly cruel. In between the most fair democracy and the most cruel dictatorship? That's where the revolution happens and keeps happening. Cruel dictatorsbips are stable because starving illiterates make bad rebels, and in this case revolution only happens because the dictator is being replaced by the army, and democracies are stable because it turns out the majority of people can be categorised into voting blocks, revolutions happen in democracy because the sitting government fails to accurately gauge voting blocks power. It's difficult to justify revolution to yourself when you voted for the guy. This is the kind of thing characters like Elend and Dalinar kind of just intrinsically gel with on a very real level.

[bmcclure7]

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

I am again forced to state the obvious: Jasnah will not determine the political future of Roshar. Retribution's steward, most likely El, will do so most of all.

Renarin and Jasnah are giving up power. It seems quite unlikely to me that the human Rosharans will listen to the losers about how to organize themselves in the long run.
Nor am I convinced Navani or Gavinor, should he survive, will see things her way.

Because the absolute monarch was a Bondsmith, the Bondsmith who was authorized to speak for Honor.

Suppose the elected government sends the police to enforce the law on a Radiant and that Radiant just refuses. Then what?

Exactly the Radiant is effectively a knightly aristocratic class weather they acknowledge it or not 

1 hour ago, Nitpicking said:

Well, by definition ancient city-states didn't have "modern" anything. Roman (Republican) democracy was one of the two main things American democracy, for one, was based on. Why do you think we have a Senate?

Separation of Powers? That was copied, with modification, from Rome, with the Tribal Assemblies and Tribunes elected by the plebes and the Senate elected by the aristocrats. It wasn't identical to any modern state, obviously, but it was more democratic in many ways than, say, Hungary right now (when it was working).

Not quite our separation of powers was based on the Roman design but when we speak of separation of powers and the Roman’s spoke of separation of powers we mean different things 

Edited January 11, 2025 by bmcclure7

[therunner he/him]

11 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

Why would they even have a supreme court? I don't believe anything like this has ever been mentioned by Jasnah or in other governments. If there is anything like it, I suspect it might be like Finland, where the Parliament is explicitly superior to the court. I'm fairly sure the concepts of three branches or checks and balances past the monarch don't really exist on Roshar.

Eh...I was responding to bmcclure7 who brought it up in his proposal:

Quote

Honestly, if I were designing a democratic-ish system for the tower. Here’s what I would do.

I small senate with representatives from each of the orders of knights radiant. A larger Congress with elected leaders. A Bondsmith king or queen that retained executive power not mere figurehead but not an absolute ruler Think the United States presidents if the United States president ruled for life or at least as long as they were able to retain their bond to the sibling. Perhaps they could also have a supreme court system made up of several ardents sepacifically, chosen by the bondsmith

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

I am again forced to state the obvious: Jasnah will not determine the political future of Roshar. Retribution's steward, most likely El, will do so most of all.

We don't know how the rest of the conflict will play out, so commenting on the future of entire Roshar is presumptuous.
For all we know El might be dead at the end book 7.

But we can comment on Alethi-in-exile and Urithiru.

Quote

Nor am I convinced Navani or Gavinor, should he survive, will see things her way.

Young Navani certainly wouldn't, she wanted power.
Present-day Navani wants to lose herself in research, so having less to do as queen is ideal for her. She was already delegating quite a bit.

Quote

Because the absolute monarch was a Bondsmith, the Bondsmith who was authorized to speak for Honor.

Not all believed that, and why does speaking for Honor grant him any special authority?

Why would Windrunner not protect mistreated slaves, only because monarch is Bondsmith? Bondsmiths don't have any special authority over the Ideals of Radiants.

Quote

Suppose the elected government sends the police to enforce the law on a Radiant and that Radiant just refuses. Then what?

Then you do your best to make him comply, possibly with assistance of other Radiants. Or you know, use suppressor Fabrial.  Or if in Urithiru, Tower could likely expel them.

There will always be classes of people who can choose to ignore the law, in capitalist system it is the people with enough money (as numerous corruption scandals can attest to, or even certain recent sentencing).

Edited January 11, 2025 by therunner

[bmcclure7]

21 hours ago, therunner said:

Yeah, Jasnah wants that, but I don't think she will be successful in that.

I mean, she rarely succeeds in her goals:

• Stop Voidbringers from returning - FAIL
• Find Urithiru - overtaken by Shallan
• Remove slavery - will be slow process and is already met with large pushback
• Be last queen of Alethkar - ??? (but already others are making provisions for monarch to stay in place, if diminished)

Large part of that is that her goals are quite ambitious, so failing to match up to them is basically inevitable.
We'll see in few years, if this time it will work out.

Oh yeah, definitely.

Politically, including spren into decision making process of nations will be the next big step for Rosharan politics I think.

Seems mostly reasonable, though I would say supreme court shouldn't be chosen by the Bondsmith, that concentrates too much power into single person (Bondsmith effectively has control over both executive and judicial branches).

Would the Radiants vote for their representatives? Also, would Radiants also be able to vote into Congress?

I would say that if Radiants are represented by their separate chamber of parliment, then they shouldn't be able to be candidates for the other chamber, nor vote into it. That way their will won't be overrepresented.

I agree I would even say that their status should prevent them from even voting in the election. As for how the representative that should be chosen for the orders, best let them decide on their own. Each order is its own distinct entity with its own ideals and ideology there’s no need to come up with a one-size-fits-all approach. 
 

An alternative would be to have the judges pick by the radiance and approved by the representatives of the people

[bmcclure7]

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Eh...I was responding to bmcclure7 who brought it up in his proposal:

We don't know how the rest of the conflict will play out, so commenting on the future of entire Roshar is presumptuous.
For all we know El might be dead at the end book 7.

But we can comment on Alethi-in-exile and Urithiru.

Young Navani certainly wouldn't, she wanted power.
Present-day Navani wants to lose herself in research, so having less to do as queen is ideal for her. She was already delegating quite a bit.

Not all believed that, and why does speaking for Honor grant him any special authority?

Why would Windrunner not protect mistreated slaves, only because monarch is Bondsmith? Bondsmiths don't have any special authority over the Ideals of Radiants.

Then you do your best to make him comply, possibly with assistance of other Radiants. Or you know, use suppressor Fabrial.  Or if in Urithiru, Tower could likely expel them.

There will always be classes of people who can choose to ignore the law, in capitalist system it is the people with enough money (as numerous corruption scandals can attest to, or even certain recent sentencing).

1.I think what he is saying Is that speaking for honor? Give him a lot of soft power, the spren seem to revere honor and the storm father enough that the oath gate spren gave them access to the cognitive realm solely because the storm father requested it. influence over spren means influence the radiance.

There is also the fact that large portions of the world worship honor which gave the bond Smith even more soft power

2. That’s because in a capitalist system, the merchant class is the most powerful class. Just like the bureaucratic class is the most powerful class in a socialist system. In the tower, the most powerful social class for both soft and hard power is the radiant social class.
 

You’re right about the tower, expelling them though. This probably means that no matter what laws they put in place, the power will be an absolute monarchy in a sense. Or at least it will be as soon as the tower and the bond smith wake up.

Edited January 11, 2025 by bmcclure7

[therunner he/him]

57 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

I agree I would even say that their status should prevent them from even voting in the election. As for how the representative that should be chosen for the orders, best let them decide on their own. Each order is its own distinct entity with its own ideals and ideology there’s no need to come up with a one-size-fits-all approach. 
 

An alternative would be to have the judges pick by the radiance and approved by the representatives of the people

Reasonable approach, on both fronts.

43 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

1.I think what he is saying Is that speaking for honor? Give him a lot of soft power, the spren seem to revere honor and the storm father enough that the oath gate spren gave them access to the cognitive realm solely because the storm father requested it. influence over spren means influence the radiance.

There is also the fact that large portions of the world worship honor which gave the bond Smith even more soft power

Maybe that's just me missing it, but in text it didn't seem to me that claiming to speak for Honor gave Dalinar much soft power, if anything it was causing more issues and suspicions. But that can be me simply missing it.

As for spren, Oath gate spren did, however I didn't get the impression that others particularly cared, see e.g. Reachers, or Highspren.

45 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

2. That’s because in a capitalist system, the merchant class is the most powerful class. Just like the bureaucratic class is the most powerful class in a socialist system. In the tower, the most powerful social class for both soft and hard power is the radiant social class.

Yep, agreed.

Which makes it all the more important to take that into account, so as to have at least some checks on them.

Quote

You’re right about the tower, expelling them though. This probably means that no matter what laws they put in place, the power will be an absolute monarchy in a sense. Or at least it will be as soon as the tower and the bond smith wake up.

In a way yes, ultimately any power state has always derives from force, state which is unable enforce its laws is no state at all.

So technically yes, if the Sibling decides something, there is not much anyone can do about it, giving the system certain level of absolutism.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

15 hours ago, RefusesToElaborate said:

Now, to relate it to Cosmere politics, Sanderson is a product of a Representative Republic living in one of the most religious subcultures in his nation that was born of rebellion. And true to that form, Sanderson writes about the affairs of republics, revolutions and religions. That is the general aura of his fiction, and you know every writer had one.

He is aware of the implications of the arcane arts on politics. Kelsier and Sazed speak about it in The Lost Metal.

But I think I better summarize them now.

1. All men are not born equal. Obviously not on Scadrial. On Roshar, Arelon and Nalthis they do not stay equal. The best ideological background for democracy is not present.
2. Secularism is dead on arrival. I guess this needs no explanation.
3. Power does not come almost exclusively from weapons. That is a bit more difficult to explain.

4 hours ago, therunner said:

Which makes it all the more important to take that into account, so as to have at least some checks on them.

All political power comes from the barrel of a gun - Mao Tse Tung (The temptation to use that quote is too big)

Without Arcane Powers power is ultimately exercised by giving commands to groups of armed men. Hence the tools of political power rest on ways of getting these people to do as you want them to.
Jasnah herself schools Shallan in this topic.

I find it ironic that Jasnah in her lesson is teaching the old Roshar from the time before Radiance came back. Now the message is not so clear any more. If Jasnah Kholin wanted to enforce her royal will, she could come after the rebels in person with Plate and Blade and make them find out whether there is a god in the Beyond.

Constitutions (and politicians in political systems) have power because people believe that they have that power. Radiants have power because you cannot defeat them in combat. In Urithiru they have even more power.

If you will, Arcane Powers diminish the relative power of the state, unless the people wielding those powers wield them in the service of the state. The question is how you would make them.
Usually the answer is money. That does not work in Urithiru. They are also the foundation of the econmy.

[Dofurion]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

If you will, Arcane Powers diminish the relative power of the state, unless the people wielding those powers wield them in the service of the state. The question is how you would make them.

Aligning the tendencies of the orders themselves (and the requirements to maintain their powers) with the functions to be performed as a public official.

https://www.17thshard.com/forums/topic/184087-the-ideal-aristocracy-on-roshar/

Edited January 11, 2025 by Dofurion

[bmcclure7]

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

He is aware of the implications of the arcane arts on politics. Kelsier and Sazed speak about it in The Lost Metal.

But I think I better summarize them now.

1. All men are not born equal. Obviously not on Scadrial. On Roshar, Arelon and Nalthis they do not stay equal. The best ideological background for democracy is not present.
2. Secularism is dead on arrival. I guess this needs no explanation.
3. Power does not come almost exclusively from weapons. That is a bit more difficult to explain.

All political power comes from the barrel of a gun - Mao Tse Tung (The temptation to use that quote is too big)

Without Arcane Powers power is ultimately exercised by giving commands to groups of armed men. Hence the tools of political power rest on ways of getting these people to do as you want them to.
Jasnah herself schools Shallan in this topic.

I find it ironic that Jasnah in her lesson is teaching the old Roshar from the time before Radiance came back. Now the message is not so clear any more. If Jasnah Kholin wanted to enforce her royal will, she could come after the rebels in person with Plate and Blade and make them find out whether there is a god in the Beyond.

Constitutions (and politicians in political systems) have power because people believe that they have that power. Radiants have power because you cannot defeat them in combat. In Urithiru they have even more power.

If you will, Arcane Powers diminish the relative power of the state, unless the people wielding those powers wield them in the service of the state. The question is how you would make them.
Usually the answer is money. That does not work in Urithiru. They are also the foundation of the econmy.

I agree, I don’t think money will work on a radiant long-term. The state is much better off trying to use soft power on them. Their ideals make them vulnerable to soft power. Become the mechanism by which they achieve their ideals and thus develop a mutual beneficial relationship.
 

7 hours ago, therunner said:

Reasonable approach, on both fronts.

Maybe that's just me missing it, but in text it didn't seem to me that claiming to speak for Honor gave Dalinar much soft power, if anything it was causing more issues and suspicions. But that can be me simply missing it.

As for spren, Oath gate spren did, however I didn't get the impression that others particularly cared, see e.g. Reachers, or Highspren.

Yep, agreed.

Which makes it all the more important to take that into account, so as to have at least some checks on them.

In a way yes, ultimately any power state has always derives from force, state which is unable enforce its laws is no state at all.

So technically yes, if the Sibling decides something, there is not much anyone can do about it, giving the system certain level of absolutism.

Honestly, I think the best way to control the bond Smith is too soft power create an expectation that the bonds Smith was only supposed to intervene in the case of an emergency and needs to be remained neutral as a symbol of the unity. There are plenty examples of this working in history 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

16 hours ago, Dofurion said:

Aligning the tendencies of the orders themselves (and the requirements to maintain their powers) with the functions to be performed as a public official.

 

14 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Their ideals make them vulnerable to soft power. Become the mechanism by which they achieve their ideals and thus develop a mutual beneficial relationship.

These solutions may get you a stable government, but obviously it means that you'll have to cede a lot of power to the Radiants.

Now, it leaves open how exactly you'd do that? A council of orders? Or a chamber elected by the Radiants as individuals?

 

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

 

These solutions may get you a stable government, but obviously it means that you'll have to cede a lot of power to the Radiants.

Now, it leaves open how exactly you'd do that? A council of orders? Or a chamber elected by the Radiants as individuals?

 

A council of orders would be the way I would lean. We have already seen a system like this work with the fused additionally, if you still want to incorporate some degree of democratic representation in the system, you balance out the power by creating a second chamber of elected individuals who are non-radiant