Why must every planet be a representative government

[bmcclure7]

7 hours ago, rabidhexley said:

The problem with this is that the Radiants evidently never took over the world in the past. They were leaders and ran things during the desolations. But even up to the Recreance when the Radiants had internal strife, the fact of the Oaths seemed to create a degree of self-selection against the types of folks who would create a superpowered ruling class. You have to "join the club"  to get your powers. And anyone can potentially join the club because spren can bond by choice, so there's downward pressure on Radiant powers becoming exclusive (in the sense of societal/hierarchical stratification).

 

And it's not even that all Radiants were good guys, it's just that for them to create organized oppression, the spren and other Radiants would have to be okay with it. A Radiant ruling-class is tough because the spren may very well just start bonding the underclass instead and you end up with a stalemate of power or some kind of civil war/rebellion.

 

So there's a lot of natural pressure to prevent Radiant powers from becoming a dominating force in politics due to the requirements of the Oaths and how the distribution of powers can't be controlled, you can't prevent the underclass or your political opponents from getting Radiant powers, so you might as well ignore them for the purpose of political organization outside of the Radiant Orders themselves. Doing otherwise is just asking for instability.

 

And the rise fabrials and other technology, as well as things like the Unoathed harkens on the democratization of Might.

 

What you're talking about more accurately happened on Scadrial with allomancy being concentrated in the ruling class until the elimination of full mistborn and ferruchemists as well as modern weaponry and a broader distribution of allomantic abilities pushing this down, and now there's the technological democratization of metalborn abilities on the way.

 

On Roshar it did happen with Shardbearers being completely contained in the ruling class. Shareblades and plate are essentially magic powers selected by might is right, and gave so much of a power advantage only those who ruled tended to have them. And it was fine if a member of the underclass occasionally got shards because it was rare and could be contained. That isn't the case for Radiant bonds.

1. We’re not talking about the world we’re talking about the tower, which I would like to remind you the radiance did rule.

2. I think one of us is confused. I was taking it for granted that the radiance did rule the world prior to the recreance and that there sudden absence created the vacuum that was filled by the church until the coming of the sun maker. Is this not so?
 

3. I’m confused. Why would you assume that a radiant ruling class would be oppressive? If anything I would assume the opposite. In many ways, they would be ideal aristocrats, the imagine by Socrates himself. Men of greatness, not just men of wealth. 
 

4. The unoathed are just another aristocratic class same as the radiance but with less restraint and less power. 
 

5 . Fabrails may one day allow the democratization of might, but not today no Fabrail can stand up to an unoathed shard bearer much less a radiant until that day comes win a common man with a fabrial can stand up to one of them then they will continue being well knights that is to say a highly skilled elite class of warriors bound by honor and duty at least theoretically. 
 

6. Actually, if you think about it, it was the loss of the mistborn that made democracy possible in Scadrial the Mistborn were the source of power for the aristocrats without that, and with the rise of firearms the nobleman naturally began to lose power. 

[Voscaia she/her]

On 1/3/2025 at 2:33 PM, Qianweilian said:

What about Germany or Japan after ww2?

Germany only worked because of 45 years of formal occupation. It didn't take my compatriots long to return to an auhtority-craving society with a democracy as defined by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, the major parties having formed an informal socialist bloc and the serious opposition being denounced as far-right. That's one of the reasons I moved to neighbouring Czechia several years ago.

In Japan the emperor stil exists, though he has no power beyond ceremony anymore.

[Qianweilian He/him]

8 minutes ago, Voscaia said:

It didn't take my compatriots long to return to an auhtority-craving society

I'm not sure if that's the fault of the authoritarian regimes being more recent, but instead of the global backsliding in democracy. As an American, we've had democracy for a while, and we're about to inaugurate a rapist and a fascist...for the second time....

[Isilel]

19 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 Radiance do not up and the social order just the opposite they reinforce it. Any dark eyes who becomes Radiant will have his eyes change color to be lighter reinforcing the idea of light eyes being holy and set above Other man.

 

On the contrary, it demonstrates that eye color has nothing to do with worthiness, since so few lighteyes are chosen for Radiance. Not a single one for the Windrunners, for example, but plenty of former slaves. It reveals the eye color hierarchy for the sham it is - yes, lighteyes are descended from worthy people (or killers who managed to grab shardblades), but aren't worthy themselves. As such, why should the population put up with their privileges?

 

19 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 It makes sense that many of the radiance will support the current social system as that system gives them the most power and privileges

 

It is also the system that led to them being oppressed in the first place and would continue to oppress their families and friends. And while iRL, historically most people who rose from nothing usually didn't care about the rest of their original social class and happily integrated themselves into power hierarchies, Oaths of several Orders, such as Windrunners and Edgedancers would prevent it from happening in SA. The system is also not layed out to absorb hundreds of new 4th dahn nobles, which Radiants would become at their 3rd Ideal.

 

19 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

3.Just because dark eyes desire or places in society (a questionable idea best) doesn’t mean that they want a democracy I doubt that even know what that is half of them can’t even read

 

Didn't stop Roman or Athenian citizens, etc. Didn't stop them from inventing democracy and republic in the first place. Didn't stop various Italian medieval city state republics either, though they did turn aristocratic after a few centuries.

 

19 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

There are many other ways, more familiar for them to push for more control of the government that they do not involve the modern democracy.
 

 

You are the one constantly bringing up modern democracies - which also have significant differences from each other, BTW. WaT didn't suggest that Jasnah was planning to establish one and I am talking about historical democracies, elective governments and republics which existed in Classical Antiquity and the Middle Ages.

IMHO, Republic of Venice before the general citizen assembly lost it's political power might provide a decent inspiration, with the Sibling's Bondsmith in the role of the Doge.

 

19 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

It would make more sense to acknowledge this obvious fact and incorporate the orders into the system so that they can be regulated by laws  traditions, and customs.

Absolutely. What makes you think that this won't happen?

[OoklaApologist She/her]

On 1/7/2025 at 12:29 PM, Ripheus23 said:

Also, way too many Euro/American-centric analogies in this thread when we should at least be looking at Jewish, Confucian, and other such analogies as well, and more emphatically.

I don’t know a lot about that history. If you have any examples, I would love to look into them.

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

IMHO, Republic of Venice before the general citizen assembly lost its political power might provide a decent inspiration, with the Sibling's Bondsmith in the role of the Doge.

Seconding this, because that would be really cool

[Ripheus23]

2 minutes ago, KelsierApologist said:

I don’t know a lot about that history. If you have any examples, I would love to look into them.

Blargh, for an example that would probably not help my case much, if at all, I would say look at the emergence of the Kuomintang/Guomindang in China. When Sun Yat-sen was the #1 leader, not Chiang Kai-shek (the latter was a monster who'd make Dalinar-in-the-Rift look almost angelic, arguably).

[bmcclure7]

7 hours ago, Isilel said:

 

On the contrary, it demonstrates that eye color has nothing to do with worthiness, since so few lighteyes are chosen for Radiance. Not a single one for the Windrunners, for example, but plenty of former slaves. It reveals the eye color hierarchy for the sham it is - yes, lighteyes are descended from worthy people (or killers who managed to grab shardblades), but aren't worthy themselves. As such, why should the population put up with their privileges?

 

 

It is also the system that led to them being oppressed in the first place and would continue to oppress their families and friends. And while iRL, historically most people who rose from nothing usually didn't care about the rest of their original social class and happily integrated themselves into power hierarchies, Oaths of several Orders, such as Windrunners and Edgedancers would prevent it from happening in SA. The system is also not layed out to absorb hundreds of new 4th dahn nobles, which Radiants would become at their 3rd Ideal.

 

 

Didn't stop Roman or Athenian citizens, etc. Didn't stop them from inventing democracy and republic in the first place. Didn't stop various Italian medieval city state republics either, though they did turn aristocratic after a few centuries.

 

 

You are the one constantly bringing up modern democracies - which also have significant differences from each other, BTW. WaT didn't suggest that Jasnah was planning to establish one and I am talking about historical democracies, elective governments and republics which existed in Classical Antiquity and the Middle Ages.

IMHO, Republic of Venice before the general citizen assembly lost it's political power might provide a decent inspiration, with the Sibling's Bondsmith in the role of the Doge.

 

Absolutely. What makes you think that this won't happen?

1. Because I doubt Jasnah would make any other than a modern democracy. Do you disagree? 
 

2.No it doesn’t it give proof that that light eyes are better because even if they were dark originally and after becoming radiant they became light eyes 

3. When people go From one class to higher one there is a natural incentive to defend your new status and there the high class position just because they were oppressed as while they were in the lower classes changes nothing. It might be different for some of them but I don’t think so. I am confident that they can find a way to fulfill their oaths without tearing down their own statues.

 

as I have already stated Roman and Greece did not have a modern democracy 

 

If she incorporates the orders into the system then She doesn’t have a representative government which is what she is supposed to be creating. 

 

Edited January 10, 2025 by bmcclure7

[therunner he/him]

4 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

1. Because I doubt Jasnah would make any other than a modern democracy. Do you disagree?

Yes, I do disagree, because the book never says that.
 

The word 'democracy' does not appear a single time in the Stormlight, all that is being talked about is representative government and checks on absolute power. Quotes from WaT

• Or perhaps something like Jasnah has always dreamed of, a more … representational method of governance. You should read some of her essays on the topic
  (Dalinar's opinion)
• Yanagawn was in many ways baffling to Adolin—a figurehead more than a king. Like a Soulcast statue, powerful in station, but somehow personally impotent. Jasnah thought this was a good thing; Adolin had tried to follow her explanations why. It made sense when she talked about checks on absolute power, but Jasnah could make anything sound reasonable.
• Barring that, they wanted him to be Jasnah’s heir until Gav was of age. Though Jasnah would ensure an elected official took her place, they thought Alethkar should have a monarch, even if they didn’t have absolute power.
• Even you, Jasnah, who speak of equality and a representative government, ignored the elected officials today,

So none of the above speak of modern democracy.
And finally, at the end we get this

• “Jasnah, I wish to adopt your system,” Renarin said. “Can we institute a representative government for Urithiru, as you have for the Alethi exiles here?”
  ...
  “My brother and I refuse the throne,” Renarin said. “I won’t stand for a highprince to be elevated. We will have an elected senate and a Ministerial Exemplar.” He stopped, looking back at them. “I think you’ll find Brightness Jasnah’s writings on the topic to be quite thorough."  
  ...
  “When my aunt wakes,” Renarin said, “she’ll accept that the world has progressed, and a queen can lead without being a ruler."

So from what Renarin says, Urithiru will be adopting system Jasnah proposed for Alethi exiles, and the system has

• Elected senate
• Ministerial Exemplar (likely Prime Minister equivalent)
• Queen

So the system Jasnah proposes and that is being adopted is in fact constitutional monarchy analogue, not modern democracy. So the book is in fact doing what you yourself suggested as the better option.

If you have evidence to the contrary, please share.

Quote

as I have already stated Roman and Greece did not have a modern democracy

If she incorporates the orders into the system then She doesn’t have a representative government which is what she is supposed to be creating. 

Limited suffrage does not mean government is not representative, otherwise no government in the world would be representative even today.

Both Roman Republic and (some) Greek city states did have representative governments while not being modern democracies, those two are not equal things.

Likewise, having an element of unelected officials is also fine, even in representative government (see House of Lords in UK), so incorporation of the Orders into the system would also not making non-representative.



Also, Jasnah's reforms on slavery are intended to take place overtime, so political reform would likely do the same, to ensure smooth transition, quote

• There was a lot of general panic about Jasnah’s work to free the Alethi slaves, a decision that Dalinar had copied for Urithiru after some persuasion. It would be a slow process, designed to take effect over time, with social systems in place to facilitate. Jasnah, as usual, had done her research

Edited January 10, 2025 by therunner

[Raven Wilder]

Something that's probably relevant here is that, up until Retribution threw a wrench in things, Roshar was a world undergoing rapid globalization.

We're not told when spanreeds were invented, but they appear to be a fairly recent thing. The introduction of instantaneous long-range communication is a pretty big game changer on its own. Compound that with the Oathgates allowing fast travel across the continent and the Desolation pushing countries into an unprecedented global alliance, and you've got people all over having far more exposure to other cultures and other ways of life than they ever had before. That's a situation that seems prime for social change.

Like, in Way of Kings, Dalinar didn't dare promote Kaladin higher than captain, and used a separate chain of command to ensure that, despite Kaladin's elevation, there wouldn't be any lighteyes getting ordered around by a darkeyed soldier. Flashforward to Wind and Truth, and you have Alethi lighteyes fighting under the command of the Azish, who are an almost entirely darkeyed people, and it's barely even an issue.

[bmcclure7]

42 minutes ago, therunner said:

Yes, I do disagree, because the book never says that.
 

The word 'democracy' does not appear a single time in the Stormlight, all that is being talked about is representative government and checks on absolute power. Quotes from WaT

• Or perhaps something like Jasnah has always dreamed of, a more … representational method of governance. You should read some of her essays on the topic
  (Dalinar's opinion)
• Yanagawn was in many ways baffling to Adolin—a figurehead more than a king. Like a Soulcast statue, powerful in station, but somehow personally impotent. Jasnah thought this was a good thing; Adolin had tried to follow her explanations why. It made sense when she talked about checks on absolute power, but Jasnah could make anything sound reasonable.
• Barring that, they wanted him to be Jasnah’s heir until Gav was of age. Though Jasnah would ensure an elected official took her place, they thought Alethkar should have a monarch, even if they didn’t have absolute power.
• Even you, Jasnah, who speak of equality and a representative government, ignored the elected officials today,

So none of the above speak of modern democracy.
And finally, at the end we get this

• “Jasnah, I wish to adopt your system,” Renarin said. “Can we institute a representative government for Urithiru, as you have for the Alethi exiles here?”
  ...
  “My brother and I refuse the throne,” Renarin said. “I won’t stand for a highprince to be elevated. We will have an elected senate and a Ministerial Exemplar.” He stopped, looking back at them. “I think you’ll find Brightness Jasnah’s writings on the topic to be quite thorough."  
  ...
  “When my aunt wakes,” Renarin said, “she’ll accept that the world has progressed, and a queen can lead without being a ruler."

So from what Renarin says, Urithiru will be adopting system Jasnah proposed for Alethi exiles, and the system has

• Elected senate
• Ministerial Exemplar (likely Prime Minister equivalent)
• Queen

So the system Jasnah proposes and that is being adopted is in fact constitutional monarchy analogue, not modern democracy. So the book is in fact doing what you yourself suggested as the better option.

If you have evidence to the contrary, please share.

Limited suffrage does not mean government is not representative, otherwise no government in the world would be representative even today.

Both Roman Republic and (some) Greek city states did have representative governments while not being modern democracies, those two are not equal things.

Likewise, having an element of unelected officials is also fine, even in representative government (see House of Lords in UK), so incorporation of the Orders into the system would also not making non-representative.



Also, Jasnah's reforms on slavery are intended to take place overtime, so political reform would likely do the same, to ensure smooth transition, quote

• There was a lot of general panic about Jasnah’s work to free the Alethi slaves, a decision that Dalinar had copied for Urithiru after some persuasion. It would be a slow process, designed to take effect over time, with social systems in place to facilitate. Jasnah, as usual, had done her research

Though Jasnah would ensure an elected official took her place. 
 

that doesn’t sound like a constitutional monarchy 

[therunner he/him]

5 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Though Jasnah would ensure an elected official took her place. 
 

that doesn’t sound like a constitutional monarchy 

Way to ignore the more detailed description later on.

So I'll try again

Quote

Jasnah, I wish to adopt your system,” Renarin said.
...
When my aunt wakes,” Renarin said, “she’ll accept that the world has progressed, and a queen can lead without being a ruler."

So Urithiru is adopting Jasnah's system, and queen still exists as a role = constitutional monarchy/.

The fact that elected official took place of a queen in government (as in e.g. UK where Prime Minister is the head of government) does not make it modern democracy.

Edited January 10, 2025 by therunner

[+Oltux72 he/him]

11 hours ago, Isilel said:

 

On the contrary, it demonstrates that eye color has nothing to do with worthiness, since so few lighteyes are chosen for Radiance. Not a single one for the Windrunners, for example, but plenty of former slaves. It reveals the eye color hierarchy for the sham it is - yes, lighteyes are descended from worthy people (or killers who managed to grab shardblades), but aren't worthy themselves. As such, why should the population put up with their privileges?

 

 

It is also the system that led to them being oppressed in the first place and would continue to oppress their families and friends. And while iRL, historically most people who rose from nothing usually didn't care about the rest of their original social class and happily integrated themselves into power hierarchies, Oaths of several Orders, such as Windrunners and Edgedancers would prevent it from happening in SA. The system is also not layed out to absorb hundreds of new 4th dahn nobles, which Radiants would become at their 3rd Ideal.

 

 

Didn't stop Roman or Athenian citizens, etc. Didn't stop them from inventing democracy and republic in the first place. Didn't stop various Italian medieval city state republics either, though they did turn aristocratic after a few centuries.

 

 

You are the one constantly bringing up modern democracies - which also have significant differences from each other, BTW. WaT didn't suggest that Jasnah was planning to establish one and I am talking about historical democracies, elective governments and republics which existed in Classical Antiquity and the Middle Ages.

IMHO, Republic of Venice before the general citizen assembly lost it's political power might provide a decent inspiration, with the Sibling's Bondsmith in the role of the Doge.

 

Absolutely. What makes you think that this won't happen?

Let me put it this way: Germans certainly had had enough of the monarchy. However that need not automatically translate into support for democracy. That view is particular to a certain time and a certain culture.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Likewise, having an element of unelected officials is also fine, even in representative government (see House of Lords in UK), so incorporation of the Orders into the system would also not making non-representative.

There are a few points which make Urithiru different. The orders, respectively their members are bound by oaths. If you see something violating your oath as a Radiant, you cannot just accept it because it was democratically voted in.

Secondly Urithiru is different from almost any state in history in that it does not depend on taxation or military service. The Radiants are the armed forces and the idea of muggles fighting Invested people bearing Plate and Blade is ludicrous. In addition the state, in the form of the queen and her spren are the ultimate source of basic economic activity. She provides the Towerlight. Urithiru in turn cannot feed itself without Soulcasters and Radiants using Progression on crops. Even housing is provided by the state.

[therunner he/him]

5 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

There are a few points which make Urithiru different. The orders, respectively their members are bound by oaths. If you see something violating your oath as a Radiant, you cannot just accept it because it was democratically voted in.

Whether or not Radiants respect the mechanism of governance, has little bearing on what Jasnah (and Renarin) want to establish, which is the subject of discussion.

I do agree that Radiants will make some parts of governance more difficult, however that is something that can be handled by law system (e.g. have special provisions carved out for Radiants).

Plus, Urithiru has functioned for over a year now, even with Edgedancers and Windrunners present, who are the orders most likely to be problematic (seeing people neglected or defenseless hurt).
External actions don't violate Radiants Oaths, only Radiant can violate them by acting against them. But there is latitude in that, as e.g. Lift did not violate her Oaths despite being in Urithiru for over a year now, even when it is absolute monarchy.

Quote

Secondly Urithiru is different from almost any state in history in that it does not depend on taxation or military service. The Radiants are the armed forces and the idea of muggles fighting Invested people bearing Plate and Blade is ludicrous. In addition the state, in the form of the queen and her spren are the ultimate source of basic economic activity. She provides the Towerlight. Urithiru in turn cannot feed itself without Soulcasters and Radiants using Progression on crops. Even housing is provided by the state.

All of that is true, however what does it have to do with system of governance?

State providing housing and food, and being basis for economic activity does not imply much about governmental system.

Edited January 10, 2025 by therunner

[Raven Wilder]

Regardless of what system of government Urithiru uses, they're almost inevitably going to have trouble with the Radiant orders having their own priorities and internal ways of doing things that will clash with the broader law of the tower. Even putting the Radiants in charge doesn't solve that, since the orders can disagree with each other mightily.

That this hasn't been a big deal so far is largely due to the number of Radiants being small, and most of them being Windrunners who are personally loyal to Kaladin, who was personally loyal to Dalinar.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

33 minutes ago, therunner said:

Whether or not Radiants respect the mechanism of governance, has little bearing on what Jasnah (and Renarin) want to establish, which is the subject of discussion.

They are both Radiants and not stupid. They won't go for a system that must collapse.

35 minutes ago, therunner said:

External actions don't violate Radiants Oaths, only Radiant can violate them by acting against them.

Well, no, I am sorry, but if that were strictly true Venli wouldn't have needed to free Lift and Kaladin could have let Moash kill Elhokar. You can violate your oaths by inaction. Possibly not in every order, but in some cases that will happen.

26 minutes ago, Raven Wilder said:

That this hasn't been a big deal so far is largely due to the number of Radiants being small, and most of them being Windrunners who are personally loyal to Kaladin, who was personally loyal to Dalinar.

That is indeed the likely answer.

40 minutes ago, therunner said:

State providing housing and food, and being basis for economic activity does not imply much about governmental system.

It gives those in government providing these benefits power. If the Edgedancers don't get what they feel they need to insist on, they can threaten to pull the plug on farming. Likewise you need the Lightweavers for soulcasting.

Respectively you can give the people power over taxation and it means very little if the bulk of state revenue comes from other sources.

[therunner he/him]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

They are both Radiants and not stupid. They won't go for a system that must collapse.

Yes, hence the system they are actively going for is likely not going to collapse.

If radiants didn't collapse absolute monarchy in more than a year, why would they collapse system that gives more power to citizens?

And again, you can carve out provisions in law system for Radiants. There are existing exception for diplomants IRL, you could do something similar.

Quote

Well, no, I am sorry, but if that were strictly true Venli wouldn't have needed to free Lift and Kaladin could have let Moash kill Elhokar. You can violate your oaths by inaction. Possibly not in every order, but in some cases that will happen.

Yes, the Radiant has to violate them by not acting on them, not by external conditions merely existing. 

But what counts as acting on Oaths depends on perception of Radiant and spren. E.g. in a democratic system, working to change laws could count as acting on the Oaths.

As to the Lift/Kaladin, their Oaths didn't force them to e.g. help free slaves or parshmen. And same for other Edgedancers or Windrunners.

So apparently, slavery existing in a state does not necessarily contradict Windrunner or Edgedancer Oaths. Similarly, Venli didn't seem compelled to free humans in Kholinar from bondage. So there is clearly rather large range of what is 'permissible' for Oaths.

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

It gives those in government providing these benefits power.

Respectively you can give the people power over taxation and it means very little if the bulk of state revenue comes from other sources.

And? Why is that necessarily problematic?

What does this have to do with form of government?

Quote

If the Edgedancers don't get what they feel they need to insist on, they can threaten to pull the plug on farming.

Like farmers could in any other system? How is that different or relevant?

Also, farming is no longer dependent on them, Urithiru is basically working automatically, or they can use the singer method.

Quote

Likewise you need the Lightweavers for soulcasting.

No they don't. They have soulcasters from Shattered plains, where they existed perfectly fine without Lightweavers for over 5 years.

 

Edited January 10, 2025 by therunner

[bmcclure7]

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Way to ignore the more detailed description later on.

So I'll try again

So Urithiru is adopting Jasnah's system, and queen still exists as a role = constitutional monarchy/.

The fact that elected official took place of a queen in government (as in e.g. UK where Prime Minister is the head of government) does not make it modern democracy.

`that quote makes clear that having a queen is never part of her system is a compromise she made in the case of Alithcar . Read your own post again he said I wish to adopt your system Not I wish to adopt the system that was forced upon you

[therunner he/him]

40 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

`that quote makes clear that having a queen is never part of her system is a compromise she made in the case of Alithcar . Read your own post again he said I wish to adopt your system Not I wish to adopt the system that was forced upon you

No, that is not the case at all.

Let's go over what is actually stated about Jasnah's system in the book:

• It is supposed to be representative form of government with checks on absolute power
  • Or perhaps something like Jasnah has always dreamed of, a more … representational method of governance. You should read some of her essays on the topic
    (Dalinar's opinion)
  • Yanagawn was in many ways baffling to Adolin—a figurehead more than a king. Like a Soulcast statue, powerful in station, but somehow personally impotent. Jasnah thought this was a good thing; Adolin had tried to follow her explanations why. It made sense when she talked about checks on absolute power, but Jasnah could make anything sound reasonable.
  • Barring that, they wanted him to be Jasnah’s heir until Gav was of age. Though Jasnah would ensure an elected official took her place, they thought Alethkar should have a monarch, even if they didn’t have absolute power.
  • Even you, Jasnah, who speak of equality and a representative government, ignored the elected officials today,
• It will include elected senate and Ministerial Exemplar
  • Jasnah, I wish to adopt your system,” Renarin said. “Can we institute a representative government for Urithiru, as you have for the Alethi exiles here?”
    ...
    “My brother and I refuse the throne,” Renarin said. “I won’t stand for a highprince to be elevated. We will have an elected senate and a Ministerial Exemplar.” He stopped, looking back at them. “I think you’ll find Brightness Jasnah’s writings on the topic to be quite thorough."
• It will include queen/monarch, and they will retain some power
  • "But if Queen Navani wakes, she’ll discover that most of her power has been stripped away! She’ll be furious.”
    “When my aunt wakes,” Renarin said, “she’ll accept that the world has progressed, and a queen can lead without being a ruler."
• Jasnah's place would be elected
  • “Though Jasnah would ensure an elected official took her place..."

All of the above are statements about Jasnah's proposed system of governance, Renarin does not seem to be referring to any compromise but her writings, and it clearly includes roles of

• Elected Senate
• Ministerial Exemplar
• Monarch

That makes it by definition constitutional monarchy, as there is a monarch (hence monarchy) and has powers limited by other bodies (the constitutional part).

Jasnah's place being elected could mean either that the governmental role that queen currently plays will be elected (i.e. head of government will be elected), or that monarch will be elected by some selected body (as is the case in some constitutional monarchies such as Malaysia or Cambodia).

Finally, even if Jasnah's undiluted thoughts were full abolishment of monarchy, that is clearly not what is setup to actually happen (due to pressures from others). Both Alethkar and Urithiru are setup to be constitutional monarchies, if the reforms take place.

Edit: TLDR: Renarin refers to adopting Jasnah's system that she did/wants to institute for Alethi exiles. That system has elected senate, Ministerial Exemplar (likely prime minister) and monarch. Both Sebarial and Renarin comment on role of queen in such governmental system, so clearly monarch is present, and retains some powers.
As such, the system Jasnah is instuting for Alethi exiles is constitutional monarchy, and so is the system intended for Urithiru.

Edited January 10, 2025 by therunner

[bmcclure7]

42 minutes ago, therunner said:

No, that is not the case at all.

Let's go over what is actually stated about Jasnah's system in the book:

• It is supposed to be representative form of government with checks on absolute power
  • Or perhaps something like Jasnah has always dreamed of, a more … representational method of governance. You should read some of her essays on the topic
    (Dalinar's opinion)
  • Yanagawn was in many ways baffling to Adolin—a figurehead more than a king. Like a Soulcast statue, powerful in station, but somehow personally impotent. Jasnah thought this was a good thing; Adolin had tried to follow her explanations why. It made sense when she talked about checks on absolute power, but Jasnah could make anything sound reasonable.
  • Barring that, they wanted him to be Jasnah’s heir until Gav was of age. Though Jasnah would ensure an elected official took her place, they thought Alethkar should have a monarch, even if they didn’t have absolute power.
  • Even you, Jasnah, who speak of equality and a representative government, ignored the elected officials today,
• It will include elected senate and Ministerial Exemplar
  • Jasnah, I wish to adopt your system,” Renarin said. “Can we institute a representative government for Urithiru, as you have for the Alethi exiles here?”
    ...
    “My brother and I refuse the throne,” Renarin said. “I won’t stand for a highprince to be elevated. We will have an elected senate and a Ministerial Exemplar.” He stopped, looking back at them. “I think you’ll find Brightness Jasnah’s writings on the topic to be quite thorough."
• It will include queen/monarch, and they will retain some power
  • "But if Queen Navani wakes, she’ll discover that most of her power has been stripped away! She’ll be furious.”
    “When my aunt wakes,” Renarin said, “she’ll accept that the world has progressed, and a queen can lead without being a ruler."
• Jasnah's place would be elected
  • “Though Jasnah would ensure an elected official took her place..."

All of the above are statements about Jasnah's proposed system of governance, Renarin does not seem to be referring to any compromise but her writings, and it clearly includes roles of

• Elected Senate
• Ministerial Exemplar
• Monarch

That makes it by definition constitutional monarchy, as there is a monarch (hence monarchy) and has powers limited by other bodies (the constitutional part).

Jasnah's place being elected could mean either that the governmental role that queen currently plays will be elected (i.e. head of government will be elected), or that monarch will be elected by some selected body (as is the case in some constitutional monarchies such as Malaysia or Cambodia).

Finally, even if Jasnah's undiluted thoughts were full abolishment of monarchy, that is clearly not what is setup to actually happen (due to pressures from others). Both Alethkar and Urithiru are setup to be constitutional monarchies, if the reforms take place.

Edit: TLDR: Renarin refers to adopting Jasnah's system that she did/wants to institute for Alethi exiles. That system has elected senate, Ministerial Exemplar (likely prime minister) and monarch. Both Sebarial and Renarin comment on role of queen in such governmental system, so clearly monarch is present, and retains some powers.
As such, the system Jasnah is instuting for Alethi exiles is constitutional monarchy, and so is the system intended for Urithiru.

Well, I certainly hope you’re right, (I doubt it she said that she would be the last queen I take her at her word but as you said, I can’t see the future) though it appears that at best the constitutional monarchy will be a mordern democracy in everything but name. Still it would at least be a new variation, and not Entirely the same as system as Mistborn. 
 

To be quite honest The real ruler of the tower is the tower itself. Ultimately the King parliament Congress or whatever they set up password ever lost they want but if the sibling doesn’t like it then The sibling could just exile them from the tower. 
 

Honestly, if I were designing a democratic-ish system for the tower. Here’s what I would do.

I small senate with representatives from each of the orders of knights radiant. A larger Congress with elected leaders. A Bondsmith king or queen that retained executive power not mere figurehead but not an absolute ruler Think the United States presidents if the United States president ruled for life or at least as long as they were able to retain their bond to the sibling. Perhaps they could also have a supreme court system made up of several ardents sepacifically, chosen by the bondsmith

 

 

[therunner he/him]

41 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Well, I certainly hope you’re right, (I doubt it she said that she would be the last queen I take her at her word but as you said, I can’t see the future)

Yeah, Jasnah wants that, but I don't think she will be successful in that.

I mean, she rarely succeeds in her goals:

• Stop Voidbringers from returning - FAIL
• Find Urithiru - overtaken by Shallan
• Remove slavery - will be slow process and is already met with large pushback
• Be last queen of Alethkar - ??? (but already others are making provisions for monarch to stay in place, if diminished)

Large part of that is that her goals are quite ambitious, so failing to match up to them is basically inevitable.
We'll see in few years, if this time it will work out.

45 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

To be quite honest The real ruler of the tower is the tower itself. Ultimately the King parliament Congress or whatever they set up password ever lost they want but if the sibling doesn’t like it then The sibling could just exile them from the tower.

Oh yeah, definitely.

Politically, including spren into decision making process of nations will be the next big step for Rosharan politics I think.

46 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Honestly, if I were designing a democratic-ish system for the tower. Here’s what I would do.

I small senate with representatives from each of the orders of knights radiant. A larger Congress with elected leaders. A Bondsmith king or queen that retained executive power not mere figurehead but not an absolute ruler Think the United States presidents if the United States president ruled for life or at least as long as they were able to retain their bond to the sibling. Perhaps they could also have a supreme court system made up of several ardents sepacifically, chosen by the bondsmith

Seems mostly reasonable, though I would say supreme court shouldn't be chosen by the Bondsmith, that concentrates too much power into single person (Bondsmith effectively has control over both executive and judicial branches).

Would the Radiants vote for their representatives? Also, would Radiants also be able to vote into Congress?

I would say that if Radiants are represented by their separate chamber of parliment, then they shouldn't be able to be candidates for the other chamber, nor vote into it. That way their will won't be overrepresented.

[alder24]

57 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Well, I certainly hope you’re right, (I doubt it she said that she would be the last queen I take her at her word but as you said, I can’t see the future) though it appears that at best the constitutional monarchy will be a mordern democracy in everything but name.

She said she would most likely be the last absolute monarch of Althekar and she thinks it would be a good thing to learn from the Azish and Taylen forms of government. I'm pretty sure that she won't suddenly establish modern democracy on Roshar just from what she said in RoW alone. RoW ch 50:

Quote

“Both of their governments go back centuries,” Jasnah said. “They’ve had generations to refine their processes. We’d do well to learn from them.” She eyed him, thoughtful. “The days of absolute power in one person’s hands will likely soon pass us by. I wouldn’t be surprised if I’m the last true Alethi monarch.”

 

[Raven Wilder]

I think Jasnah wanted to be the last monarch of Alethkar, but also wanted to remain monarch of Alethkar for a long while yet. Being replaced by an elected representative was a years/decades in the future goal.

[Qianweilian He/him]

4 hours ago, therunner said:

supreme court

Why would they even have a supreme court? I don't believe anything like this has ever been mentioned by Jasnah or in other governments. If there is anything like it, I suspect it might be like Finland, where the Parliament is explicitly superior to the court. I'm fairly sure the concepts of three branches or checks and balances past the monarch don't really exist on Roshar.

Edited January 10, 2025 by Qianweilian
Compared to Elendel, which has separate branches and some checks and balances.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

7 hours ago, alder24 said:

She said she would most likely be the last absolute monarch of Althekar and she thinks it would be a good thing to learn from the Azish and Taylen forms of government. I'm pretty sure that she won't suddenly establish modern democracy on Roshar just from what she said in RoW alone. RoW ch 50:

I am again forced to state the obvious: Jasnah will not determine the political future of Roshar. Retribution's steward, most likely El, will do so most of all.

Renarin and Jasnah are giving up power. It seems quite unlikely to me that the human Rosharans will listen to the losers about how to organize themselves in the long run.
Nor am I convinced Navani or Gavinor, should he survive, will see things her way.

11 hours ago, therunner said:

If radiants didn't collapse absolute monarchy in more than a year, why would they collapse system that gives more power to citizens?

Because the absolute monarch was a Bondsmith, the Bondsmith who was authorized to speak for Honor.

12 hours ago, therunner said:

And? Why is that necessarily problematic?

What does this have to do with form of government?

Suppose the elected government sends the police to enforce the law on a Radiant and that Radiant just refuses. Then what?

[Nitpicking]

23 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

as I have already stated Roman and Greece did not have a modern democracy

Well, by definition ancient city-states didn't have "modern" anything. Roman (Republican) democracy was one of the two main things American democracy, for one, was based on. Why do you think we have a Senate?

Separation of Powers? That was copied, with modification, from Rome, with the Tribal Assemblies and Tribunes elected by the plebes and the Senate elected by the aristocrats. It wasn't identical to any modern state, obviously, but it was more democratic in many ways than, say, Hungary right now (when it was working).