Why must every planet be a representative government

[bmcclure7]

I love living in a democracy but read about democracy in fiction can get boring fast.

It would be much more interesting if we had multiple different forms of government across the cosmere.

aditionally trying to force a democracy on a people who did not choose a democracy almost always backfires weather it be the wiemar Republic or Afghanistan Democracy can not be implemented from the top down.

additionally the tower is supposed to be the base of the orders so shouldn’t the orders decide how it should be ruled? Your thoughts anyone?

Edited December 29, 2024 by bmcclure7

[Argenti he/him]

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

I love living in a democracy but read about democracy in fiction can get boring fast.

It would be much more interesting if we had multiple different forms of government across the cosmere.

aditionally trying to force a democracy on a people who did choose a democracy almost always backfires weather it be the wiemar Republic or Afghanistan Democracy can not be implemented from the top down.

additionally the tower is supposed to be the base of the orders so shouldn’t the orders decide how it should be ruled? Your thoughts anyone?

Well, the orders are going to decide how it's ruled. Via a democracy. Traditionally, they're ruled over by a bondsmith, not anyone else. The common radiant won't do (my order is better than yourrrss) and you can't have a normal person in power. that's just silly. Their only good option is a democracy, or at most like an oligarchy. By merit of the radiant orders, you have a bunch of groups of people with very different ideas all in some objective power. You can't favor one over the other.

I do like reading about non-democracies, but here at least it makes sense.

[bmcclure7]

26 minutes ago, Argenti said:

Well, the orders are going to decide how it's ruled. Via a democracy. Traditionally, they're ruled over by a bondsmith, not anyone else. The common radiant won't do (my order is better than yourrrss) and you can't have a normal person in power. that's just silly. Their only good option is a democracy, or at most like an oligarchy. By merit of the radiant orders, you have a bunch of groups of people with very different ideas all in some objective power. You can't favor one over the other.

I do like reading about non-democracies, but here at least it makes sense.

No they could have ever order decide on a leader based using there on methods and then have each leader form a council that rules think a radiant form of the 9 

26 minutes ago, Argenti said:

Well, the orders are going to decide how it's ruled. Via a democracy. Traditionally, they're ruled over by a bondsmith, not anyone else. The common radiant won't do (my order is better than yourrrss) and you can't have a normal person in power. that's just silly. Their only good option is a democracy, or at most like an oligarchy. By merit of the radiant orders, you have a bunch of groups of people with very different ideas all in some objective power. You can't favor one over the other.

I do like reading about non-democracies, but here at least it makes sense.

You could form council with the leaders of each order like the radiants version of the 9 that makes much more sense than a democracy .
 

The people already respecting the radiance so it makes more sense then instituting a democracy that no one asked for

Edited December 29, 2024 by bmcclure7

[AlmightyGir]

Well, Roshar has just become a theocratic dictatorship so... Have at it?

[Argenti he/him]

3 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

No they could have ever order decide on a leader based using there on methods and then have each leader form a council that rules think a radiant form of the 9 

4 hours ago, Argenti said:

That's an oligarchy / representative democracy. And all this means is that there's gonna be at least one elected official: Do you really think the edge dancers are gonna be okay with an oligarchy? Listen to the forgotten?

 

2 hours ago, AlmightyGir said:

Well, Roshar has just become a theocratic dictatorship so... Have at it?

I suppose? Though it's more  a theocratic oligarchy. The fused rule, not so much tarvavangium, he's busy.

[bmcclure7]

22 hours ago, Argenti said:

That's an oligarchy / representative democracy. And all this means is that there's gonna be at least one elected official: Do you really think the edge dancers are gonna be okay with an oligarchy? Listen to the forgotten?

 

I suppose? Though it's more  a theocratic oligarchy. The fused rule, not so much tarvavangium, he's busy.

1. No, it’s not an oligarchy are ruled by the rich. This is an old-fashioned aristocracy with elements of theocracy. 
 

2. In either case neither an oligarchy or an aristocracy our representative governments by definition. 
 

3. The orders will be deciding on their leaders, not the people. so in either case the system will not be a democracy, except for maybe within the individual orders even in that case only in some cases.
 

4. Listen to the forgotten doesn’t immediately translate to Democratic representative government, especially given that this world has almost no examples of such a thing. Well it would make sense for the edge dancer become advocate for the people that doesn’t mean that they would support representative government, especially since the people themselves don’t even know what a representative government is at this point. 
 

5. Again, you’re confusing Oligarchy (rule of the rich typically merchants or land owners) with aristocracy (rule of the best typically warrior/land owners) these two are similar, but very different things

6. Agreed it doesn’t look like retribution war be ruling Roshar directly, so this will be much more like an aristocracy at least for those who did not directly surrender and so still maintain some form of independence.

[Nitpicking]

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

1. No, it’s not an oligarchy are ruled by the rich. This is an old-fashioned aristocracy with elements of theocracy.

It's a small point, but I did take the username "Nitpicking", so ... Rule by the rich is plutocracy. Oligarchy is rule by a group of people, generally not as representatives of the people in general. Oligarchy is usually contrasted with dictatorship.

[bmcclure7]

17 minutes ago, Nitpicking said:

It's a small point, but I did take the username "Nitpicking", so ... Rule by the rich is plutocracy. Oligarchy is rule by a group of people, generally not as representatives of the people in general. Oligarchy is usually contrasted with dictatorship.

Thank you for clarifying 

[Nitpicking]

I mean, I'm literally an ex-teacher, you have to expect pedantry. (Somehow, Eric [Chaos] manages to avoid it despite being a teacher.)

[Argenti he/him]

On 12/30/2024 at 8:31 PM, bmcclure7 said:

1. No, it’s not an oligarchy are ruled by the rich. This is an old-fashioned aristocracy with elements of theocracy. 
 

As nitpicking said, that's simply not true. Oligarchy breaks down to "rule of few" and is defined as "a small group of people having control of a country, organization, or institution."

Aristocracy isn't really a government system. It's more of a social classification. An aristocracy is a type of oligarchy, as is a theocracy. 

The radiant orders aren't really an aristocracy. Blood and breeding very explicitly don't matter, and there's no barrier to entrance, other than being picked by a spren, which is random(ish).

On 12/30/2024 at 8:31 PM, bmcclure7 said:

4. Listen to the forgotten doesn’t immediately translate to Democratic representative government, especially given that this world has almost no examples of such a thing. Well it would make sense for the edge dancer become advocate for the people that doesn’t mean that they would support representative government, especially since the people themselves don’t even know what a representative government is at this point. 

Well, yes, but jasnah has yapped about it before. The edgedancers had heard about it, and a democracy is not that complex a concept. While it may be alien to the alethi, with their strict command structures, the whole tower isn't just alethi, and I'm sure many of the azier have at least heard about it. (I'm almost certain one wrote about it at some point.)

[Dofurion]

I've already mentioned it in another post, given the intrinsic characteristics of Roshar, a good form of government would be what I call 'Nahelcracy' (government of the bond with the divine).
A system based on trust in the impartiality of the Nahel. But given how the situation ends in the fifth book, it was not a good time to implement it either.

[Qianweilian He/him]

10 hours ago, Dofurion said:

A system based on trust in the impartiality of the Nahel

That seems like a bad idea. The oaths are vague enough, and the people and spren varied enough, that it seems like it would result in a military dictatorship/oligarchy with extra steps.

[Argenti he/him]

51 minutes ago, Qianweilian said:

That seems like a bad idea. The oaths are vague enough, and the people and spren varied enough, that it seems like it would result in a military dictatorship/oligarchy with extra steps.

Yup! A Nahelcracy is a type of oligarchy! Might end up as a junta, honestly.

[Nitpicking]

1 hour ago, Qianweilian said:

That seems like a bad idea. The oaths are vague enough, and the people and spren varied enough, that it seems like it would result in a military dictatorship/oligarchy with extra steps.

In fact, isn't it nearly the same as the Hierocracy? That worked so well ...

[Isilel]

I really hope that the government they create isn't going to be a true democracy, that wouldn't make sense with largely illiterate and ignorant population. Athenian "democracy" wasn't really such if seen objectively either. However, it never made any sense to me that Urithiru should be an autocratic kingdom and from the glimpses of in-book WoR and bits of visions, it hadn't been in the past. It looked to me like it had some kind of elective government, in which only Radiants had a voice. This would need to be remedied to involve normals too, in some way, maybe with using the traditional "right of travel", i.e. the right to chose whom to follow as a logical foundation.

There were historically a number of states with a somewhat elective government, which would provide a better model, IMHO. And it would be more plausible if Jasnah as a historian took some Rosharan historical examples as a basis as well. IIRC, a couple have been mentioned in the series - Tova, etc. And, of course, Urithiru effectively being a city state now actually makes it more likely for such endeavour to succeed, if RL precedents are any guide. 

I do wonder if it is really a good time for such experiments, though. But since fundamental changes are inevitable anyway  maybe?

Edited January 3, 2025 by Isilel

[Qianweilian He/him]

We have historical evidence that democracy is the superior form of government. You may have a benevolent dictator, the current generation of radiants in fact probably would make effective governors, but you cannot guarantee that their successors will either be a competent or as dedicated to helping. There is no way to keep rulers accountable in this system and corruption will inevitably set in. 

On 12/29/2024 at 4:20 PM, bmcclure7 said:

democracy in fiction can get boring fast.

It would be much more interesting if we had multiple different forms of government across the cosmere.

I would disagree. Democracy in fiction can be extremely interesting. The conflicts in the Basin in TLM and the government turmoil was an example of democracy in fiction done well.

On 12/29/2024 at 4:20 PM, bmcclure7 said:

additionally the tower is supposed to be the base of the orders so shouldn’t the orders decide how it should be ruled?

It's more than that now. It's where a significant portion of the Alethi population call home.

On 12/29/2024 at 4:20 PM, bmcclure7 said:

trying to force a democracy on a people who did not choose a democracy almost always backfires

What about Germany or Japan after ww2?

On 12/29/2024 at 4:20 PM, bmcclure7 said:

weather it be the wiemar Republic

Germany literally had a revolution during ww1. If that doesn't show popular support, I don't know what does. Part of the reason that the Weimar republic failed was resentment from the Treaty of Versailles, which had nothing to do with "forcing democracy on a people." Democracy is objectively better.

[Nitpicking]

12 hours ago, Isilel said:

There were historically a number of states with a somewhat elective government, which would provide a better model, IMHO. And it would be more plausible if Jasnah as a historian took some Rosharan historical examples as a basis as well. IIRC, a couple have been mentioned in the series - Tova, etc. And, of course, Urithiru effectively being a city state now actually makes it more likely for such endeavour to succeed, if RL precedents are any guide.

The Alethi are based on the real-world Mongols, I have read. The Mongols had a sort of Holy Roman Empire-style democracy. The royal house would vote on a successor when the king died.

Representative popular democracy, not so much. That first started to be possible when literacy became general, IMO. The Vorin rule against literate men would make democratization harder to succeed at. Keep in mind, England didn't get the popular vote until the 20th Century.

[jamskinner]

On 12/29/2024 at 3:33 PM, Argenti said:

Well, the orders are going to decide how it's ruled. Via a democracy. Traditionally, they're ruled over by a bondsmith, not anyone else. The common radiant won't do (my order is better than yourrrss) and you can't have a normal person in power. that's just silly. Their only good option is a democracy, or at most like an oligarchy. By merit of the radiant orders, you have a bunch of groups of people with very different ideas all in some objective power. You can't favor one over the other.

I do like reading about non-democracies, but here at least it makes sense.

Or they could be dysfunctional and break into tribes like before. Much more likely especially now. 

[Ripheus23]

The front half Archive was a very thorough examination of the moral/political philosophy of dictatorship, if not totalitarianism. Unfortunately for Team Towerlight, Roshar is now going to be dominated by a totalitarian system. This in spite of the fact that Dalinar himself was able to expertly resist Odium's machinations on this score, since Retribution went and took a shadow of Dalinar anyway  But so Hoid, for example, at one asked about the possible need for a hard ruler in some circumstances. He did not expect Dalinar to surrender Honor to Odium, he half-expected Dalinar to hold the Shard of Honor against Odium and in the imposition of a dictatorship on Roshar, alongside the possible destruction of Roshar (since Hoid said something to the effect of being willing to watch that happen, if it came to it). So even Hoid was confused/mistaken about the ethics of dictatorship.

Dalinar was not, in the end. He knew, flat out, that becoming a murderous dictator of the world would be evil, so evil that no matter what else, he could not become that. He could not trust himself to have become so redeemed that he merited holding a Shard. No human mortal ought to think themselves uniquely trustworthy for the task of being the ultimate ruler of humankind. No one should be this universal, terrible king. No one is good enough to be worthy of ruling everyone else. Virtue is not a competition, and trying to make it out like it is will actually lead to a drastically worse situation, physically and morally, than if a more conciliatory strategy were pursued.

Sidebar: part of the allegory of Roshar and the True Desolation is ecological desolation, as a symbol for environmental destructiveness on Earth. On either planet, the cumulative evil of history has desecrated the structure of the atmosphere, to the point where there has been "climate change" at threshold levels of impact. This is not the reason for the subplot I am about to predict will arise in the back half, but I mean it's illustrative of Sanderson's familiarity with political and environmental science.

Theory (not crackpot): the ostensible Big Bad's power is, by name, Warlight. His tone is the tone of War. War is the enemy. So what are Kaladin and Co. gonna do, go to war with War? That seems like it might not work, like it would be a self-defeating process. Besides which, and Sanderson being the pathbreaker that he is, it would be a quite nifty aspect of the back half, for Sanderson to depict the philosophy and history of nonviolent resistance, restorative justice, and similar themes, reprising his depiction of the philosophy of authority in the front half. Having a theological totalitarian regime in place, where the evil god is actually provably real to boot, is a great opportunity to showcase how some processes of nonviolent resistance have interacted with destructive systems in the real world, except then clad in the raiment of the cosmere here.

IOW, what if, during the Last/True Return(???), Kaladin and Co. lead, not a rebel army that repeats the fantasy that has consumed so many fantasy-genre fans for decades, the one about being an armed rebel against the evil regime that effectively rules the whole world, but instead they nonviolently resist Retribution's system, including by being in Jesus-inspired scenes of literal Physical healing through divine power? (There's a moderately reasonable case that can be made, I think, that the Christian movement that lived under the Roman Empire, i.e. prior to Constantine and Nicea, was engaging in a long-term, and apparently quite effective, strategy of nonviolent resistance to that empire. That they did not, with their victory, establish then a freer state than they did, not by a long shot, is frustrating (to say the least), but we don't have to absolutely idealize nonviolent resistance movements any more than we already do various sides during various historical wars. Still, I don't see why Sanderson has to reject his religious background as a source of thematic inspiration, not by any means whatsoever, and so though there are other ancient narratives of divine healing, and Sanderson might very well be confirmed to know many of those besides the Christian one, I do think that having Kaladin as a healer, say, would be meant so that we would look at him as the effective counterpart to our concept of Jesus, but on Roshar.)

[Nitpicking]

@Ripheus23 makes an interesting point. Another potential name of Odium+Honor would be "War", wouldn't it? Hating someone(s) enough to kill them, in defense of one's stated principles?

[coolsnow7]

Clearly you’re not a Fukuyamist (see The End of History and the Last Man) but clearly Brandon is!

[bmcclure7]

On 1/2/2025 at 6:56 PM, Argenti said:

As nitpicking said, that's simply not true. Oligarchy breaks down to "rule of few" and is defined as "a small group of people having control of a country, organization, or institution."

Aristocracy isn't really a government system. It's more of a social classification. An aristocracy is a type of oligarchy, as is a theocracy. 

The radiant orders aren't really an aristocracy. Blood and breeding very explicitly don't matter, and there's no barrier to entrance, other than being picked by a spren, which is random(ish).

Well, yes, but jasnah has yapped about it before. The edgedancers had heard about it, and a democracy is not that complex a concept. While it may be alien to the alethi, with their strict command structures, the whole tower isn't just alethi, and I'm sure many of the azier have at least heard about it. (I'm almost certain one wrote about it at some point.)

1. No most of tower as of now is Alethi

2. While I’m sure some one in azure knows about democracy the fact that they don’t use this system seems to indicate that it isn’t widely known or popular system among them.

3. Even if Jasnah spent all off screen time yapping about democracy it would take years if not generations for the idea to spread and gather enough support to justify this kind of change

4. Edge dancers are the most religious order so I don’t there big fans of Jasnah 

 

5. Actually a effort representing government is far more complex than other systems 

6 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

Clearly you’re not a Fukuyamist (see The End of History and the Last Man) but clearly Brandon is!

?

Edited January 5, 2025 by bmcclure7

[bmcclure7]

On 1/3/2025 at 7:33 AM, Qianweilian said:

We have historical evidence that democracy is the superior form of government. You may have a benevolent dictator, the current generation of radiants in fact probably would make effective governors, but you cannot guarantee that their successors will either be a competent or as dedicated to helping. There is no way to keep rulers accountable in this system and corruption will inevitably set in. 

I would disagree. Democracy in fiction can be extremely interesting. The conflicts in the Basin in TLM and the government turmoil was an example of democracy in fiction done well.

It's more than that now. It's where a significant portion of the Alethi population call home.

What about Germany or Japan after ww2?

Germany literally had a revolution during ww1. If that doesn't show popular support, I don't know what does. Part of the reason that the Weimar republic failed was resentment from the Treaty of Versailles, which had nothing to do with "forcing democracy on a people." Democracy is objectively better.

1.A military coup is not the same as a popular revolution. And the coup was just to remove the Kizer not established a republic that came afterwards it was a decision made by the elites not the people. 

2. No democracy is literally designed to be as boring as possible a good thing to because when politicians get interesting people die 
 

3. Japan and German had a foreign military power that support them for the first generation of you want to see what happens when a foreign power leaves in such a circumstance I refer you to Afghanistan 

4. I can’t speak for you by I skip all the political parts of AOL because they were boring 

 

5. There are a lot of other types of government then democracy and dictatorship. This isn’t a binary choice 

 

6.  I strongly prefer Democracy over other forms of government in this world but to say that we have historical proof that it is superior form of government is just wrong.

Our mordern democracies are only a few hundred years old far to early to make such a judgement and how would you even measure such a thing anyway?

Edited January 5, 2025 by bmcclure7

[bmcclure7]

On 1/3/2025 at 8:37 PM, jamskinner said:

Or they could be dysfunctional and break into tribes like before. Much more likely especially now. 

Democracy doesn’t protect from that possibility 

[Dofurion]

On 1/3/2025 at 7:54 AM, Qianweilian said:

That seems like a bad idea. The oaths are vague enough, and the people and spren varied enough

I think I already made my points clear in that other thread, but to be clear. I built the nahelcracy based on intercepting the points where each order can lose its spren with the points where they would be a bad public servant.

On 1/3/2025 at 8:47 AM, Argenti said:

Yup! A Nahelcracy is a type of oligarchy! Might end up as a junta, honestly.

In political theory, all forms of government generate oligarchies, including democracies and anarchies. The difference lies in how closely the interests and incentives of these oligarchies align with the demands of the governed population and their medium- and long-term well-being.