The future of Gavinor

[bmcclure7]

What do you think Gavinor will do during the time skip.

 

Will he join retribution?

Will retributions corruption, give him access to any abilities?

Will people fear him because of the red eyes?

Will he stay in the tower?

Will he try to become king of Alithcar? 
 

Will he fall in love? If so, with what character?

[RedBlue]

I have been thinking about Gavinor and what will come next for him.

There’s so much we don’t know about his current state. After being raised in the Spiritual Realm by a guy who only planned to use him as a tool, does he even know how to function in the Physical? Will he have to learn to manage daily routines, eating and sleeping and so on, from scratch? Will he have problems navigating real space? How developed are his social skills?

If Gavinor isn’t a functional adult, is that something he can fix in ten years, or is it more difficult than that?

22 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Will he join retribution?

He has been very thoroughly betrayed by Taravangian, and Dalinar — the man he was taught to hate — saved his life. I doubt that Gavinor would willingly work for Taravangian again, although it remains to be seen if Retribution retains his ability to compel Gavinor.

26 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Will people fear him because of the red eyes?

I took the red eyes to mean red-rimmed — as in, he’d been crying. If his eyes are actually the colour red now, that’s a very bad sign. Possibly linked to corrupted Investiture. But I think, based on context, it’s just that he’d been crying.  

27 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Will he stay in the tower?

Will he try to become king of Alithcar?

I doubt he will have an opportunity to leave the tower, and if he does, I don’t know where he would go. Alethkar is a defunct kingdom. I suspect the Alethi land will be governed by Singers going forward, possibly lead by El. I don’t think Gavinor would have an ‘in’ there.

32 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Will he fall in love? If so, with what character?

There are no obvious candidates, so if he does get a love interest, I think it will be a new character. I can only imagine that would be a train wreck of a relationship 

[Storyspren]

People:

A guy with the (stealable) power of RETRIBUTION creates a person with a much closer connection to RETRIBUTION than the original guy ever had.

 

Meanwhile, the original tool used to kill Odium is growing in power and conscience.

The math maths itself.

 

[RedBlue]

4 minutes ago, Storyspren said:

A guy with the (stealable) power of RETRIBUTION creates a person with a much closer connection to RETRIBUTION than the original guy ever had.

I have definitely noted how revenge-y everything about Gavinor is. But if we’re talking specifically about what he’ll get up to during the time skip, I very much doubt that a revenge quest is going to happen off-screen.

7 minutes ago, Storyspren said:

Meanwhile, the original tool used to kill Odium is growing in power and conscience.

I don’t think it’s likely that Nightblood will be used to kill Taravangian. He’s not stupid enough to fall for the same trick he pulled on Rayse. Also, repeating that plot beat would feel repetitive.

[bmcclure7]

11 hours ago, RedBlue said:

I have been thinking about Gavinor and what will come next for him.

There’s so much we don’t know about his current state. After being raised in the Spiritual Realm by a guy who only planned to use him as a tool, does he even know how to function in the Physical? Will he have to learn to manage daily routines, eating and sleeping and so on, from scratch? Will he have problems navigating real space? How developed are his social skills?

If Gavinor isn’t a functional adult, is that something he can fix in ten years, or is it more difficult than that?

He has been very thoroughly betrayed by Taravangian, and Dalinar — the man he was taught to hate — saved his life. I doubt that Gavinor would willingly work for Taravangian again, although it remains to be seen if Retribution retains his ability to compel Gavinor.

I took the red eyes to mean red-rimmed — as in, he’d been crying. If his eyes are actually the colour red now, that’s a very bad sign. Possibly linked to corrupted Investiture. But I think, based on context, it’s just that he’d been crying.  

I doubt he will have an opportunity to leave the tower, and if he does, I don’t know where he would go. Alethkar is a defunct kingdom. I suspect the Alethi land will be governed by Singers going forward, possibly lead by El. I don’t think Gavinor would have an ‘in’ there.

There are no obvious candidates, so if he does get a love interest, I think it will be a new character. I can only imagine that would be a train wreck of a relationship 

It mentioned that he had glowing red eyes before he started crying at the start of the contest didn’t it?

[Shacharma]

no way is he joining retribution, though a revenge quest might be manipulated by taravangian (as by definition it would be retribution against Retribution, which the powermight embrace...)

In terms of love interest, i think the only real candidate is Lift, especially given the setup of a friendship between the two of them before he got sucked into the spiritual realm and now being a similar age. the two of them will definitely be connected, but we'll see if it develops into a relationship...

 

[RedBlue]

5 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

It mentioned that he had glowing red eyes before he started crying at the start of the contest didn’t it?

 

Only mention of Gav having red eyes I could find was chapter 146, after the contest.

Quote

Renarin emerged into the top room of the tower, and from there, took the steps to the roof. Together, he, Rlain, and Jasnah joined a small, solemn group at the railing. Gavinor, somehow fully grown, sat by it with Oathbringer across his lap, his eyes red.

I can’t find anything from the contest about glowing red eyes, unless I’ve missed something?

[TwinStorm He/Him]

I think he will definitely be shunned by the common people, and will likely go into some sort of exile. I would love a redemption arc, involving a Radiant bond. Maybe Skybreaker, though likely Enlightened, since he saw his uncle’s crimes and was determined to punish him.

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

I think that he will be left nearly as broken and depressed as Kaladin, his grandfather died to save him, and his grandmother is stuck in crystal for now.

With Taravangian's betrayal and Dalinar's sacrifice he's been given the ultimate proof that most of his life has been wasted as a tool for a god who doesn't give a damn about him. 

It really is more horrible the more you think about it, he has spent more of his life in a lie than he has ever had with his real family.

People will know that he was the Enemy Champion that cost them the chance to win, so he'll be socially isolated except for the few people that know his true circumstances, who won't always have time to spend with him. 

Renarin and Jasnah will have some very busy years ahead of them, Lift will try and help him as a friend, plus feeling guilty about indirectly causing him being in the wrong place and time, but she can't be around all the time either, as the now sole Radiant who can function outside of Urithiru.

I imagine that when he's alone, he'll be lost in thought, thinking about how everything was so wrong and probably blaming himself for Dalinar's death, for the True Everstorm, for Retribution, for everything that went wrong due to the Contest. Struggling to reconcile everything that happened to him.

20 hours ago, RedBlue said:

There’s so much we don’t know about his current state. After being raised in the Spiritual Realm by a guy who only planned to use him as a tool, does he even know how to function in the Physical? Will he have to learn to manage daily routines, eating and sleeping and so on, from scratch? Will he have problems navigating real space? How developed are his social skills?

I think that he'll be fine in terms of functioning as an adult, Taravangian did educate him over the course of 20 years, and on the chance that Gavinor won the Contest, he'd need to have some education to run a kingdom.

But due to the Spiritual Realm's weird effects on one's sense of time, I could easily see him often losing track of time. 

I think he'll have a big part to play in the back half, in fact he's almost become a parallel to Moash, both being tools for Odium, with Gavinor probably still wanting Retribution on the guy for killing his dad.

Maybe a part of his character development is understanding that his dad made mistakes that led to Moash, maybe he'll have nearly caused another Moash to exist due to negligence like his father, only to learn from the lessons and prevent it.

Either way, they still have some beef to settle one way or another.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

I am very sorry, but somebody has to state the obvious.

He is a traitor. He sided with Odium. He cost much of the inhabitants of Urithiru their homeland. Many people, possibly a majority, will simply demand that he be tried and executed.

Now I don't think that that will happen, him being the scion of House Kholin. But he better never go anywhere without bodyguards. His life will definitely be very unhappy. People will spit at the ground he walked upon.

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

I am very sorry, but somebody has to state the obvious.

He is a traitor. He sided with Odium. He cost much of the inhabitants of Urithiru their homeland. Many people, possibly a majority, will simply demand that he be tried and executed.

Now I don't think that that will happen, him being the scion of House Kholin. But he better never go anywhere without bodyguards. His life will definitely be very unhappy. People will spit at the ground he walked upon.

He was a 5 years old boy when he was stolen from his family and brainwashed for 20 years into obedience by Odium. He made no choices, he had no agency, he doesn't even remember his time spent with Navani and Dalinar in the Tower. He doesn't know anything other than what Taravangian had shown him. He's not a traitor, he's a tragic victim. Some people might view him as a traitor, but that isn't deserved.

[BinarySecond]

On 12/29/2024 at 9:53 AM, Ookla the Irreplaceable said:

I think he will definitely be shunned by the common people, and will likely go into some sort of exile. I would love a redemption arc, involving a Radiant bond. Maybe Skybreaker, though likely Enlightened, since he saw his uncle’s crimes and was determined to punish him.

His redemption will come when he kills Moash in the back half. I want to make a specific book commitment but I'll be happy enough to lock this prediction in now.

Edited December 31, 2024 by BinarySecond

[Soccorro]

41 minutes ago, alder24 said:

He was a 5 years old boy when he was stolen from his family and brainwashed for 20 years into obedience by Odium. He made no choices, he had no agency, he doesn't even remember his time spent with Navani and Dalinar in the Tower. He doesn't know anything other than what Taravangian had shown him. He's not a traitor, he's a tragic victim. Some people might view him as a traitor, but that isn't deserved.

Readers know it but in-world characters might not be so kind. In-world characters should be pissed and it would make sense

But I really think BS will ignore all of it. He isn’t very good at writing characters who suffer consequences of their actions and everything is always swept under the rug. No one cares that Adolin killed Sadeas. No one cares that Kaladin killed Shallan’s brother. No one cares that Kaladin wanted to help Moash to assassinate Elhokar. No one cares that Navani helped their enemy

[MagicMaggot]

On 12/29/2024 at 3:11 PM, JustQuestin2004 said:

I think that he'll be fine in terms of functioning as an adult, Taravangian did educate him over the course of 20 years, and on the chance that Gavinor won the Contest, he'd need to have some education to run a kingdom.

 

I like that thought. Especially since it helps me to rationalize Taravangian's over-the-rop cruelty here from his perspective. If he isn't just creating a weapon, but creating a king in his image, spending 20 years of spirit time on him is quite in character, much more so than just marinating the boy in hatred for 20 years to make a point. And Taravangian's protégé, raised on a mix of his ruling philosophy, and a passion to get what is rightfully his, sounds much more interesting to me as a character than just another abuse victim to send to the Herald of Bumbling Therapies. Heck, if there is actually a Taravangian-formed mind behind the sword, he might even be willing to look beyond the betrayal, understanding Todium's motives. 

I certainly would prefer an arc where he finds his way in Retribution's realm, which he at least somewhat understands, to one where everyone tries to rebilitate him. And having him interact with the Blackthorn's spiritual shadow or whatever it is, sounds interesting. 

[RedBlue]

It’s reasonable for people like Jasnah to want to keep an eye on Gavinor to make sure he’s not trying to undermine them. If it turns out that Gavinor is perpetuating a grudge against his remaining relatives, obviously something will have to be done to stop him.

But punishing him for the events surrounding the Contest would be a horrible perversion of justice. He has no moral culpability for what happened. Anyone who knows who he is can easily understand this, and anyone who doesn’t know who he is won’t know to be mad at him.

[duladen he/him]

What about the other Gavinor? That lump of flesh that Navani thought was a sleeping child. Will it just... slowly rot away? Gain sentience?

[QuantumAce]

6 hours ago, Soccorro said:

Readers know it but in-world characters might not be so kind. In-world characters should be pissed and it would make sense

But I really think BS will ignore all of it. He isn’t very good at writing characters who suffer consequences of their actions and everything is always swept under the rug. No one cares that Adolin killed Sadeas. No one cares that Kaladin killed Shallan’s brother. No one cares that Kaladin wanted to help Moash to assassinate Elhokar. No one cares that Navani helped their enemy

He was actively a traitor for all of 30 seconds, and like most of your other examples, only a handful of in world characters are aware of it. 

People can also care about something without it having a major impact on the plot. Roshar is going through a lot right now, and sometimes otherwise significant events just get bigfooted by the local apocalypse suddenly exploding to threaten the rest of the universe. 

[Nitpicking]

7 hours ago, duladen said:

What about the other Gavinor? That lump of flesh that Navani thought was a sleeping child. Will it just... slowly rot away? Gain sentience?

I'm  hoping it becomes a sort of non-evil doppelganger to the Blackthorn spren, attaining consciousness but not actually being influenced by its creator, Odium. (If I have the sequence right, he's created before Taravangian picks up a second Shard.) The people desperately want a good king (despite now having a representative government forced on them) and he's molded by their Cognitive influence to become that king.

[DSCrankshaw]

I think more people will be angry at Dalinar than Gavinor. They know Gav didn't kill him, but they believe Dalinar failed anyway. His family seems ready to forgive him, but the only ones who show any understanding of what Dalinar did are Wit and possibly the Sibling ("No, he shattered it all. The contract, Honor—all done. All dead. It’s … it’s brilliant. And terrible," they said to Navani.) Considering that a considerable number of readers do sort of understand what Dalinar did and still blame him, I think he'll bear more of the blame than Gavinor.

That doesn't mean Gav won't be ostracized. Considering the people trying to help him will be Jasnah and Renarin rather than Kaladin or Adolin, I have my doubts about how well he'll do. I think the best help he may receive would be from Lift and maybe Zahel.

[Soccorro]

9 hours ago, duladen said:

What about the other Gavinor? That lump of flesh that Navani thought was a sleeping child. Will it just... slowly rot away? Gain sentience?

I don’t think it can be sapient because Odium explained that he can’t create life. Walmart Dalinar became sapient because Dalinar himself brought it to life via some Bondsmith shenanigans with Connection 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

5 hours ago, DSCrankshaw said:

I think more people will be angry at Dalinar than Gavinor. They know Gav didn't kill him, but they believe Dalinar failed anyway.

Dalinar failed. That is true. However, he fought a god. There is a limit to the extent you can blame somebody for thus failing. Gavinor, however, raised a weapon against his own people. I highly doubt that Alethi will take any excuse whatsoever for that.

5 hours ago, DSCrankshaw said:

Considering the people trying to help him will be Jasnah and Renarin rather than Kaladin or Adolin, I have my doubts about how well he'll do. I think the best help he may receive would be from Lift and maybe Zahel.

You mean the same Jasnah who has ... practical views on how to deal with failures in the family? It is impossible to see how she will take her defeat in Thaylenah, but it is possible that in her mind, Dalinar was ultimately weak for failing to kill the one who fought against his own people.

[QuantumAce]

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Dalinar failed. That is true. However, he fought a god. There is a limit to the extent you can blame somebody for thus failing. Gavinor, however, raised a weapon against his own people. I highly doubt that Alethi will take any excuse whatsoever for that.

Dalinar is universally viewed as a power hungry despot, even by those who love him. Many people already had a problem with him challenging a god for the fate of their planet. Even his strongest allies viewed his quest to seize the power of a god as somewhat problematic. Now he manages to seize the power of a god, then chooses to forfeit while giving up that power to the enemy. You really think that is more forgivable than being brainwashed by a god from the age of 5? Highly doubtful.  

[+Oltux72 he/him]

1 hour ago, QuantumAce said:

Dalinar is universally viewed as a power hungry despot, even by those who love him. Many people already had a problem with him challenging a god for the fate of their planet. Even his strongest allies viewed his quest to seize the power of a god as somewhat problematic. Now he manages to seize the power of a god, then chooses to forfeit while giving up that power to the enemy. You really think that is more forgivable than being brainwashed by a god from the age of 5? Highly doubtful.  

Yes. Seeking power is not a negative thing in a king in Alethi culture. It is at worst morally ambiguous. In the end he fought for Roshar in a war he didn't start.

[QuantumAce]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Yes. Seeking power is not a negative thing in a king in Alethi culture. It is at worst morally ambiguous. In the end he fought for Roshar in a war he didn't start.

In the end, Dalinar gave up the power, he refused to kill one person in order to win the contest, he chose to to forfeit. Losing to a more powerful enemy might be understood, but choosing to give up goes against Alethi culture. 

People followed Dalinar because he forced them to. He is gone now. Justifying Gavinor's actions and rehabbbing his image would be far easier than for Dalinar.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

16 hours ago, QuantumAce said:

In the end, Dalinar gave up the power, he refused to kill one person in order to win the contest, he chose to to forfeit. Losing to a more powerful enemy might be understood, but choosing to give up goes against Alethi culture.

Two things

1. They are not absolutely clear on what exactly happened up there. At least not until he Sibling or Navani start talking again.
2. One also does not kill one's kin. Pretty close to a human universal.

So, yes, Dalinar was weak and thus failed. I believe that will be the dominant view in due course. But still he has excuses, like Cultivation telling him to go to the Spiritual Realm.

16 hours ago, QuantumAce said:

People followed Dalinar because he forced them to.

That's what an Alethi leader may do.

16 hours ago, QuantumAce said:

Justifying Gavinor's actions and rehabbbing his image would be far easier than for Dalinar.

Provided there is something to justify. That I doubt. Honor is about oaths. The Alethi are supposed to represent that. Treason is unforgivable. As soon as somebody takes up weapons against his kingdom, it is over. His or her reasons don't matter.