The future of Gavinor

[QuantumAce]

On 1/1/2025 at 5:58 AM, Oltux72 said:

They are not absolutely clear on what exactly happened up there. At least not until he Sibling or Navani start talking again.

Exactly, there were very few witnesses to Gavinor's actions. Everyone knew Dalinar was there to face Odium's champion, and everyone can see that he failed to win. Nobody expected Gavinor to show up 20 years older, and very few witnessed it. I know Renarin has been told, but I don't think it is widespread knowledge at this point. 

 

On 1/1/2025 at 5:58 AM, Oltux72 said:

On 12/31/2024 at 1:18 PM, QuantumAce said:

People followed Dalinar because he forced them to.

That's what an Alethi leader may do.

You cropped off the key point, Dalinar is no longer there to enforce his will. The Alethi would hate the fact he gave up power and chose to forfeit, but he might have been able to maintain control through his power and strength of will. Unfortunately, the evil men do lives after them while the good is soulcast with their bones. 

 

On 1/1/2025 at 5:58 AM, Oltux72 said:

Provided there is something to justify. That I doubt. Honor is about oaths. The Alethi are supposed to represent that. Treason is unforgivable. As soon as somebody takes up weapons against his kingdom, it is over. His or her reasons don't matter.

Treason, or reclaiming his rightful throne? Just spit balling here, but maybe something along the lines of: Dalinar personally beat Elhokar into submission, got Elhokar killed on a secret mission, then moved the entire Alethi power structure to his personal kingdom. He lost the Alethi homeland, then forfeited the chance to reclaim it. Gavinor was trying to save his people from the broken old man who was running them into the ground.  

There are plenty of ways to spin it, but the point it there is a plausible redemption path for Gavinor. He could also make a solid villain. Either way, I hope we see his character fleshed out a little more. 

[RedBlue]

I’m not sure why Alethi cultural norms are being used as a basis for this discussion.

Who is in a position to be making decisions about what to do with Gavinor and also subscribes to traditional Alethi culture? Jasnah and Renarin are famously critical of Alethi culture. Navani is in a coma. Dalinar is dead. Sebarial doesn’t care. The representative government that Jasnah and Renarin want to install seems unlikely to be mired in Alethi tradition.

Aladar is the last remaining traditionalist who still has enough power to be important. Is he going to advocate for punishing Gavinor? He seems to have his hands full trying to navigate the deteriorating class boundaries among Alethi in Urithiru. Moving against a member of the Kholin family (who is in the line of succession, no less) will not help his case.

On that note, it is true that Jasnah has a history of considering the assassination of family members. It is also true that she has a history of not going through with it. She didn’t order a hit on Aesudan despite her suspicions. She didn’t kill Renarin when he displayed abilities linked with an enemy. Jasnah is deeply emotionally invested in her family, and I expect her to be protective of Gavinor unless he gives her a very good reason to consider him an active threat.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

21 hours ago, RedBlue said:

I’m not sure why Alethi cultural norms are being used as a basis for this discussion.

Because that is what the majority of the population of Urithiru comes from. It was first crewed by the Alethi armies fleeing the battle of Narak. Now they've added the population fleeing from the Shattered Plains. If you are moving to a representative government in Urithiru, it will be Alethi. And it will be composed of people who have personally lost everything and whose relatives are now serfs in Alethkar. They are not going to be happy with their leadership.

21 hours ago, RedBlue said:

Aladar is the last remaining traditionalist who still has enough power to be important. Is he going to advocate for punishing Gavinor?

Sure he is. A man raised for two decades by Taravangian, their enemy, in the line of succession? That is a nightmare. He has to die. If he also can serve as a scapegoat, the better it is.

[TheoreticalMagic]

Personally, I can't help but compare Gavinor's forced premature aging to the power of Honor being depicted as a young child who needs to learn certain lessons in order to become a better Honor....with Dalinar essentially betraying the power (in its eyes) to send it to learn from Taravangian....the very person who "taught" Gavinor during his own supernaturally-affected adolescence.

Like the parallels are very much there, IMO.

And especially when you consider how much importance the power placed on wanting to be understood....it could be argued that who better to understand this young, newly aware Honor...and be understood by it in turn....than Gavinor, a child forced to grow up before his time due to being thrust into the heart of a conflict he had no agency in starting, and wrestling with feelings of at different times both identifying with Taravangian and feeling betrayed by him, and with the same also holding true of his feelings about Dalinar?

I could easily see a potential future in which GAVINOR actually ends up becoming a Vessel for part of Honor, maybe whatever he's able to pull back from Taravangian as the power is torn between wanting to be part of Retribution and punish Oathbreakers, and growing to understand that Taravangian lacks key aspects of Honor and limits how fully the power of Honor is able to remain true to itself as just part of Retribution.

Also, I couldn't help but notice how often the word redemption gets thrown around in the last few chapters of the book. The Heralds wanting to redeem themselves, Venli, Dalinar, Szeth, even Renarin and Rlain "making right a wrong that had long been festering" by freeing Bo-Ado-Mishram could be seen as a kind of redemption for the Radiants....the concept of redemption is HUGELY centered in the very same segment that talks about parts of Honor splitting off before the power merged with Odium and became Retribution.

And since redemption conceptually can be framed as reclaiming a sense of honor.....I wonder if those parts of Honor that split off before joining Odium did so because they were the parts of the newly aware power that resonated with the lessons Adolin was learning about the distinction between promises and oaths, being honorable to oneself vs being performatively honorable, the way the Heralds were actively reclaiming their Honor with the reforged Oathpact....

Idk, just spitballing here, but Brandon's talked before about the possibility that a large or significant enough Splinter of a Shard could form its own mini-Intent.

What I'm wondering is if ENOUGH of Honor split off before the main core of it joined with Retribution....that those pieces could in theory have their own Connection with the bits of Honor present in his spren and in the reforged Oathpact and Heralds protecting them....

And possibly act as a new Shard of Redemption, to oppose Retribution, even if its not as powerful as Retribution, or even the other original sixteen Shards....but still powerful ENOUGH to have its own distinct Intent, perhaps.

If so....I could definitely see Gavinor/Redemption vs Taravangian/Retribution being a very interesting narrative to pursue, thematically speaking.

Edited January 8, 2025 by TheoreticalMagic

[Leuthie]

Does anyone alive besides Taravangian actually know who Gavinor is? Seriously. Only Dalinar, Odium, Stormfather and Gavinor were up there. Dalinar and Stormfather are dead. Who else knows who Gavinor is much less what he said (he didn't actually do anything). Dude has no parents, one dead grandparent, one frozen grandparent, and no one knows who he is except a god, the only being he actually knows. 

The only other major relationship that could affect Gavinor is Lift. I think that's where Brandon will go in the break. Lift and Gavinor 

[Nitpicking]

7 hours ago, Leuthie said:

Does anyone alive besides Taravangian actually know who Gavinor is? Seriously. Only Dalinar, Odium, Stormfather and Gavinor were up there. Dalinar and Stormfather are dead. Who else knows who Gavinor is much less what he said (he didn't actually do anything). Dude has no parents, one dead grandparent, one frozen grandparent, and no one knows who he is except a god, the only being he actually knows.

He does look almost exactly like Elhokar.

[Soccorro]

9 hours ago, Leuthie said:

Does anyone alive besides Taravangian actually know who Gavinor is? Seriously

Gavinor is in Urithiru with Renarin and Jasnah in the end of the book and both of them know who he is and also somehow know that he’s Odium champion

«Renarin emerged into the top room of the tower, and from there, took the steps to the roof. Together, he, Rlain, and Jasnah joined a small, solemn group at the railing. Gavinor, somehow fully grown, sat by it with Oathbringer across his lap, his eyes red.
It was so much to take in. Gavinor had been Odium’s champion? Add that to Navani being comatose, and … storms, Renarin had barely explained about Ba-Ado-Mishram. It was too much to deal with at the moment. Now … now he needed to deal with what was ahead of him. A few others had come to see the body, and they parted for Renarin.»

[Nitpicking]

On 1/9/2025 at 12:18 AM, Soccorro said:

Gavinor is in Urithiru with Renarin and Jasnah in the end of the book and both of them know who he is and also somehow know that he’s Odium champion

I think he told them.

[Subvisual Haze]

Redeemed by the power of love and friendship by Navani, Dalinar's ghost and Lift (who makes an inappropriate comment).  Elhokar's ghost saying something inspirational is 50/50.  

[TheoreticalMagic]

I do think that while significantly younger than him at this point, Oroden might be a major factor in what happens with Gavinor going forward. I have a hunch that Oroden might occupy a narrative niche similar to Lift's presence in the first five books....ten years from Stormfall, he'll be a young teenager. Still too young to be a major driving narrative force, I imagine, but old enough by then to be a sort of interlude or support character that's well connected enough to the major players to drive some character beats forward in significant subplots. And he and Gavinor might have an interesting if weird dynamic, because they SHOULD be around the same age, only a year or two apart, but they're obviously not. Might he be a reminder to Gavinor of what he would have been if not for Taravangian's plot, or a glimpse of the kind of life, kind of person he could have become if the supernatural shenanigans hadn't happened to him? And thus, perhaps serve as a kind of guidepost or lodestone to a potential path forward that veers away from where Taravangian attempted to direct him and tries to course correct down a path of more natural development?

I think it potentially makes for a very interesting dynamic, having the little brother of the Herald of Second Chances, the former Champion of Odium and Lift, the biggest remaining connection to a non-Retribution related divinity, being a kind of next generation of major characters. (And while Oroden at age fourteen or whatever probably can't drive too much of the plot, we only know the INITIAL intended time skip, the ten year gap before Roshar catches up to the rest of the cosmere by the time of Book Six. There could easily be a year or two time skip somewhere in the mix after that point to get Oroden in his later teens and more "protagonist-aged.")

Edited January 11, 2025 by TheoreticalMagic

[SirrMelvin]

On 12/28/2024 at 12:17 PM, RedBlue said:

I have been thinking about Gavinor and what will come next for him.

There’s so much we don’t know about his current state. After being raised in the Spiritual Realm by a guy who only planned to use him as a tool, does he even know how to function in the Physical? Will he have to learn to manage daily routines, eating and sleeping and so on, from scratch? Will he have problems navigating real space? How developed are his social skills?

If Gavinor isn’t a functional adult, is that something he can fix in ten years, or is it more difficult than that?

He has been very thoroughly betrayed by Taravangian, and Dalinar — the man he was taught to hate — saved his life. I doubt that Gavinor would willingly work for Taravangian again, although it remains to be seen if Retribution retains his ability to compel Gavinor.

I took the red eyes to mean red-rimmed — as in, he’d been crying. If his eyes are actually the colour red now, that’s a very bad sign. Possibly linked to corrupted Investiture. But I think, based on context, it’s just that he’d been crying.  

I doubt he will have an opportunity to leave the tower, and if he does, I don’t know where he would go. Alethkar is a defunct kingdom. I suspect the Alethi land will be governed by Singers going forward, possibly lead by El. I don’t think Gavinor would have an ‘in’ there.

There are no obvious candidates, so if he does get a love interest, I think it will be a new character. I can only imagine that would be a train wreck of a relationship 

Lift would be a candidate for a relationship no? Similar ages now I think + Lift's immaturity might line up with Gavs inevitable immaturity due to not really being raised normally 

[RedBlue]

3 hours ago, SirrMelvin said:

Lift would be a candidate for a relationship no? Similar ages now I think + Lift's immaturity might line up with Gavs inevitable immaturity due to not really being raised normally 

After the time skip, Lift will be in her mid-twenties and Gav in his mid-thirties. I suppose that’s not an unworkable age difference, but it’s large enough that I don’t consider it an ‘obvious’ pairing, especially when there’s not really anything else to suggest they would be good together.

And Lift is immature right now because she’s a child. I don’t know how mature she will be as a young adult.