Cognitive Shadow Revelations

[nehalem]

So the Heralds are cognitive shadows right?

So its been an open question whether a cognitive shadow is actually the original person or merely a copy of them.

For instance Vasher tells, I believe Kaladin(which is actually hilarious now), that cognitive shadows are basically a fossil of the original person.

Well guess who just became a Herald, and hence a cognitive shadow: Kaladin!

So if Vasher is right that is super awkward, because that would mean Kaladin is now dead

And we would only get a fossil Kaladin in the back 5.  Also awkward for Syl.  Do you think Syl would realize the real Kaladin is dead?

So basically I think the simpler explanation is that a cognitive shadow is the original person, and Vasher was just wrong.

[Corgen]

A person is his memory; it is what defines us.

[Argenti he/him]

Syl would have no idea. Kaladin as a person is the same. But yeah we have no idea, Brandon wants to keep it ambiguous. It should be the same person, if your spirit web was just made more fancy, or if your "soul" (whatever goes to the beyond) was put into a new framework.

Or the soul passes on and he's just a copy who thinks he's kaladin, but is just a replica of a dead man. Ask star trek.

[Lord Ruler Sylphrena He/Him]

I think each method produces a slightly different type of Cognitive shadow. The way they describe becoming a Herald it seems the only you lose is your body a you receive a new one made of investiture. Given this fact it seems that Herald's keep their soul/spirtual realm aspect. Honestly who knows though.

[Treamayne]

On 12/24/2024 at 4:33 PM, nehalem said:

For instance Vasher tells, I believe Kaladin(which is actually hilarious now), that cognitive shadows are basically a fossil of the original person.

Yes, that is what Vasher tells Kaladin (RoW Ch 15). However, this is tied to one of Sanderson's "Big No-No's" - WoBs:

Spoiler

Quote

Questioner

I think there's a flaw in my understanding of Cognitive Shadows. I assume that... they would have more visibility into the Cognitive Realm, like a Herald would be able to see spren more easily, that kind of thing. Is that incorrect?

Brandon Sanderson

That is incorrect. A Cognitive Shadow simply means a copy of the Cognitive side made by a deep amount of Investiture. And everybody has a Cognitive side. Basically it's a fake soul. Or, fake is the wrong term. Fake is the wrong term. Even in-world they don't know if it's really them or not. It is Investiture has replaced the Investiture that is fleeing from them as they die, or enhancing it in some way to keep it around. So some Cognitive Shadows trapped on the Cognitive Realm are going to be-- have a lot of Cognitive-- I mean, they're there, right? But some Cognitive Shadows inhabiting a body in the same way that your mind inhabits your body, the way the cosmere works... So a Herald is going to feel like they are alive just like-- but their soul has been somehow transformed. It's not really transformed, it's been reproduced or copied by an injection of Investiture...

And I'll say for the purpose of the recordings, I haven't canonized any of that terminology that I just used about Cognitive Shadows. I'm just talking about it, I'm not necessarily saying that this is how you are supposed to refer to it. You can refer to it however you want. I've often used the metaphor of how fossils get made. When a fossil is made there is a pattern and it is slowly replaced with another substance that is stronger and more endurant, and has the shape of it, but is it still the bone? When you have a fossil bone is it the dinosaur bone? In most cases no, but yes. It's the ship of Theseus sort of thing again. Is this the bone or is it not? Is this the soul? Is this the person or is it not? That's the same sort of thing is happening with Cognitive Shadows. And it's happening on all three Realms to an extent, though of course the body is not. The body stays. It's happening on two Realms. It's happening Spiritually, mostly Cognitively.

Orem signing (March 10, 2018)

Quote

Khyrindor

You've said that Returned count as Cognitive shadows "stapled" back into their bodies, and that the Heralds are at least similar. Would I be right in assuming that Elantrians could be considered as Cognitive Shadows as well, or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Brandon Sanderson

Elantrians are something different. They don't actually "die" to be created.

Recognize that the term Cognitive Shadow is an in-cosmere theory, which I'm not going to comment on as the creator of the setting. The theory is this:

Investiture seeks sapience. It looks for someone to control it or, in some instances, spontaneously adopts personality.

A mind (Cognitive aspect of a person) can become infused with Investiture. This acts a little like minerals with petrified wood, replacing the mind and personality with investiture.

When the actual person dies, this investiture imprint remains behind. A copy of the soul, but not the actual soul.

Others disagree with this, and think the soul itself persists. Still others reject the theory in its entirety.

Stormlight Three Update #6 (Jan. 20, 2017)

 

And, most especially - WoB:

Spoiler

Questioner

In Stormlight, Dalinar mentioned that <if he can die, he's no longer a god>, so to speak. And throughout the cosmere, gods died *inaudible*. Is there an omniscient, omnipotent, actual God in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Is there an omniscient, omnipotent God in the cosmere? Some people believe that there is. You guys laugh about this, but I don't mean it to be a laughing thing. There are certain questions I will not answer in the cosmere, specifically because it would too much undermine some of the characters' beliefs. And I want to treat characters respectfully. So whether there is life after you pass into the Beyond, and whether there is a God of gods, an omnipotent, as we would define "monotheistic God," are questions that I don't answer, and I let the characters deal with. Because if I answer that, then the character discussions about this are meaningless. Not really, but they kind of are. So there are a couple things I won't answer about the cosmere, because the characters don't have these answers.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

Brandon has categorically said he will never answer this question - because it is tied to the nature of the soul and the Beyond and a possible afterlife. To answer this question would be to negate the beliefs of many/most of his characters and his fans. The only answer we will ever get is that this is a question debated in the Cosmere - Vasher does believe the Fossil theory (Soul goes to the Beyond, and a Fake Soul made of investiture remains and thinks it's the person). Others (possibly Nazh, since he was so distraught when meeting Kelsier the first time) beleive it is the actual Soul held in the Cosmere by Investiture.

Both are valid arguments, and we will never have a definitive answer from the books - he wants each of us to decide for ourselves. 

Hope that helps.

Edited December 26, 2024 by Treamayne
SPAG

[alder24]

On 12/24/2024 at 10:33 PM, nehalem said:

So the Heralds are cognitive shadows right?

So its been an open question whether a cognitive shadow is actually the original person or merely a copy of them.

For instance Vasher tells, I believe Kaladin(which is actually hilarious now), that cognitive shadows are basically a fossil of the original person.

Well guess who just became a Herald, and hence a cognitive shadow: Kaladin!

So if Vasher is right that is super awkward, because that would mean Kaladin is now dead

And we would only get a fossil Kaladin in the back 5.  Also awkward for Syl.  Do you think Syl would realize the real Kaladin is dead?

So basically I think the simpler explanation is that a cognitive shadow is the original person, and Vasher was just wrong.

I believe both explanations are valid and real in Cosmere. You can make a Cognitive Shadow in two ways - either make a copy of their soul out of investiture, or invest them so heavily that they will resist the pull into the Beyond (as we know having more investiture allows one to remain longer in CR). From what WaT showed us, it looks like Kaladin just got insanely invested by a Splinter of Honor, thus he didn't die and left a copy behind, he already was invested enough to become a Cognitive Shadow before he died. But as I said, that's what I believe in. 

Spoiler

Questioner

Because Zahel was especially Invested when he died, he became that other soul. Does that mean that Elend wasn't actually...?

Brandon Sanderson

Zahel is a special case. What happened with him is, on his planet, he was specifically chosen by the Shard to be Returned. That happens, you don't have to be specifically Invested for that. The god gives them that. Now, to become a Cognitive Shadow, which is what certain people in the cosmere are, you need a powerful amount, an enormous amount.

Questioner

So not the bead?

Brandon Sanderson

Not just being a Mistborn, not just... he wasn't even close to being where he needed to be, if you want to end up as a Cognitive Shadow. You need to do some special hoops. We're talking, drawing forth the power of a Shard, or being endowed with the power of a Shard, or a certain number of Breaths would do it. There is a threshold that you could get, you're gonna end up as a Cognitive Shadow.

FanX 2021 (Sept. 17, 2021)

 

[TayschrennSedai]

On 12/24/2024 at 4:33 PM, nehalem said:

So the Heralds are cognitive shadows right?

So its been an open question whether a cognitive shadow is actually the original person or merely a copy of them.

For instance Vasher tells, I believe Kaladin(which is actually hilarious now), that cognitive shadows are basically a fossil of the original person.

Well guess who just became a Herald, and hence a cognitive shadow: Kaladin!

So if Vasher is right that is super awkward, because that would mean Kaladin is now dead

And we would only get a fossil Kaladin in the back 5.  Also awkward for Syl.  Do you think Syl would realize the real Kaladin is dead?

So basically I think the simpler explanation is that a cognitive shadow is the original person, and Vasher was just wrong.

I think what I just read is Syladin is now Canon because Cognitive Shadow + Spren = MoreHonorSpren?!

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

Isn't this a bit moot at this point? Is it the original soul or isn't it? Well the SprenThorn has all of Dalinar's memories, minus about 5 minutes and will have all of those experiences within him, and he is essentially a clone of Dalinar. Lets, for the sake of argument, say that the SprenThorn is Dalinar. Then there is a soul of Dalinar in the beyond and there is a (now made physical) Dalinar in the PR..presumably also with a soul. Splintering is a canonical mechanic for Shards..is SprenThorn a splinter of Dalinar? Is Kaladin a splinter of himself? His whole self? Or an entirely different entity with everything that makes Kaladin, Kaladin?

This is honestly the part of Brandon wanting to be "hands off" about the Beyond that bothers me. Not the philosophical aspects of it, but the mechanics. If the idea of splintering a soul, and that Cognitive Shadows are (to borrow from the Iriali) pieces of the one, then that's fine. Makes sense. We are all different people throughout our lives. We are all the Ship of Theseus at any given points. I am most certainly not the person I was 10 years ago, even less so 20 years ago. I get that Brandon has made a choice, and that we can all think whatever we want and that's equally valid, it's just that for a universe that has so many set rules, it would be nice to know the rules.

[AlmightyGir]

In my mind, it works essentially like the point of singularity... If/when we ever get to the stage that we can upload our consciousnesses, we're not uploading *us*, we're uploading a copy of us in that moment. That copy will then live on and have its own experiences, while we finish up our lives (assuming we survive the process) and have another set of experiences.

To the copy, they might as well be us, because as far as they're concerned, they're us up until the point of the copy and beyond, including the experience of being copied and whatever comes after.

Kaladin died to become a Herald. Ishar made that quite clear when it happened. Ishar created a copy of him and filled it with enough investiture that it has an imprinting on all three realms. It has a spirit, in so much as it is invested heavily enough to have a presence on the spiritual realm, but Kaladin's actual spirit is gone, what is left is not him. But it will believe it's him, act like him, make decisions like him... Until, eventually, it won't anymore, just like the other Heralds.

I'm not convinced that their madness is purely due to their torture. I think at least a part of it is the fact that their human memories only stretch so far, and as the investiture that keeps them "alive" is just energy, it cannot process human thought, emotion, etc. In the same way an actual human mind can. It's an imitation of humanity that eventually must fail, otherwise the path to immortality in the cosmere is relatively straightforward.

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

1 minute ago, AlmightyGir said:

Kaladin died to become a Herald. Ishar made that quite clear when it happened. Ishar created a copy of him and filled it with enough investiture that it has an imprinting on all three realms. It has a spirit, in so much as it is invested heavily enough to have a presence on the spiritual realm, but Kaladin's actual spirit is gone, what is left is not him. But it will believe it's him, act like him, make decisions like him... Until, eventually, it won't anymore, just like the other Heralds.

You say that, but we also got to "see" Dalinar go to the Beyond, same as we have with just about every other main character who has died in the Cosmere. With Kaladin, that was suspiciously absent, and that was certainly an editorial choice that was made. To be fair, it was probably made so that we can all sit around and debate it forever.

[AlmightyGir]

Fair. I suppose that's speculation on my part, but I do think Ishar made the outcome obvious.

[Rhaenys She/Her]

On 12/24/2024 at 7:20 PM, Treamayne said:

Khyrindor

You've said that Returned count as Cognitive shadows "stapled" back into their bodies, and that the Heralds are at least similar. Would I be right in assuming that Elantrians could be considered as Cognitive Shadows as well, or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Brandon Sanderson

Elantrians are something different. They don't actually "die" to be created.

Recognize that the term Cognitive Shadow is an in-cosmere theory, which I'm not going to comment on as the creator of the setting. The theory is this:

Investiture seeks sapience. It looks for someone to control it or, in some instances, spontaneously adopts personality.

A mind (Cognitive aspect of a person) can become infused with Investiture. This acts a little like minerals with petrified wood, replacing the mind and personality with investiture.

When the actual person dies, this investiture imprint remains behind. A copy of the soul, but not the actual soul.

Others disagree with this, and think the soul itself persists. Still others reject the theory in its entirety.

Stormlight Three Update #6 (Jan. 20, 2017)

To me it sounds like the process Elantrians and Heralds go through is at least somewhat similar. 

[Treamayne]

1 minute ago, Rhaenys said:

To me it sounds like the process Elantrians and Heralds go through is at least somewhat similar. 

Except that Elantrians are not cognitive shadows, and they have not died. The Reod Elantrians (during that book) believed themselves to be dead because they were mid-transformation; so their bodies were in a partially-changed unchangeable transformation state (hence your bolded part about them not dying).

We should get more information in the Elnatris sequels, but from known data, they are more like a Surgebinder with permanent access to Investiture (Dor) that sustains them (agelessness, quickened physical traits, healing, etc.) as well as fueling AonDor. 

[QuantumAce]

18 hours ago, AlmightyGir said:

Kaladin died to become a Herald. Ishar made that quite clear when it happened. Ishar created a copy of him and filled it with enough investiture that it has an imprinting on all three realms. It has a spirit, in so much as it is invested heavily enough to have a presence on the spiritual realm, but Kaladin's actual spirit is gone, what is left is not him. But it will believe it's him, act like him, make decisions like him... Until, eventually, it won't anymore, just like the other Heralds.

Ishar is clear that Kaladin's body died, and his future bodies will be copies.  Then Ishar says "Your soul will be pulled with us, leaving the body behind". That leads me to believe he was invested enough that to resist the pull of the beyond, instead of being a copy. I feel like Ishar would understand the difference as well as anyone, but its possible he was just trying to keep the explanation simple. 

 

[Marcidus]

On 2/6/2025 at 8:41 AM, QuantumAce said:

Ishar is clear that Kaladin's body died, and his future bodies will be copies.  Then Ishar says "Your soul will be pulled with us, leaving the body behind". That leads me to believe he was invested enough that to resist the pull of the beyond, instead of being a copy. I feel like Ishar would understand the difference as well as anyone, but its possible he was just trying to keep the explanation simple. 

 

This interpretation matches what Kalak says in RoW:

"Regardless, I write now. Because I know they are coming for me. They got Jezrien. They’ll inevitably claim me, even here in the honorspren stronghold. And so, I’ll die. Yes, die. If you’re reading this and wondering what went wrong—why my soul evaporated soon after being claimed by the gemstone in your knife—then I name you idiot for playing with powers you only presume to understand. The bond is what keeps us alive. You sever that, and we will slowly decompose into ordinary souls—with no valid Connection to the Physical or Spiritual Realms. Capture one of us with your knives, and you won’t be left with a spren in a jar, foolish ones. You’ll be left with a being that eventually fades away into the Beyond."

It seems like the Heralds' souls are augmented by investiture, not replaced by it. 

 

[Returned he/him]

"Death" is an underspecified term in the Cosmere, and will remain so (by WoB). For the vast majority of characters the experience of dying will be essentially the same in the Cosmere as it would be in the real world but for others the differences will be material enough that words like "dead" and "death" don't carry much specific meaning.

The Heralds died often but their "souls" persisted, along with all of their memories, until the weight of time made all that memory unmanageable. The Returned died once and their "souls" came back without any memories at all but they retained a specific purpose they conceived before their death went all the way through. Kelsier died, kept his memories, and his "soul" didn't go anywhere. Ashravan's body never died but some aspect of him did, and that aspect was sort of replaced by a stamp. Szeth died, and his "soul" almost left but didn't quite go to completion and was placed back into his body, and while he kept his memories he lost at least some of the spiritual connections that we know death (and almost nothing else) forcibly severs.

Even if all of these cases are internally consistent with one another somehow (which they may not be), death in the Cosmere doesn't seem directly analogous to death in the real world. Short of the soul (or whatever) going to the Beyond I'm not sure describing any in-Cosmere event as a death is appropriate, accurate, or meaningful. It's just fundamentally more complex and abstract than the common meanings of that word can express.

Edited February 12, 2025 by Returned

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

On 12/24/2024 at 4:33 PM, nehalem said:

So the Heralds are cognitive shadows right?

So its been an open question whether a cognitive shadow is actually the original person or merely a copy of them.

For instance Vasher tells, I believe Kaladin(which is actually hilarious now), that cognitive shadows are basically a fossil of the original person.

Well guess who just became a Herald, and hence a cognitive shadow: Kaladin!

So if Vasher is right that is super awkward, because that would mean Kaladin is now dead

And we would only get a fossil Kaladin in the back 5.  Also awkward for Syl.  Do you think Syl would realize the real Kaladin is dead?

So basically I think the simpler explanation is that a cognitive shadow is the original person, and Vasher was just wrong.

This question is more of a philosophical one. Vasher probably wouldn't admit it, but he's a very philosophical person - he questions everything and analyzes even whether he can trust that he is still the same person he used to be, even though it feels fo rhim like he is.

Essentially, it's like the question of Last Thursdayism. What if everything we know to exist didn't actually start until last Thursday and it was all created (our memories and historical records, etc.) at that time. Is there any way to know? If that is true.. well all of our lives up to that point weren't real but are just fabricated memories.

Similarly, what if we have souls and our souls move into a different body each day but inherit those memories? No way to know if that's true or not true. But if it is, we are technically not who we think we are. But even then, we are still ourselves for that day.

You can think up a ton of different questions like this, but at the end of the day it doesn't have a practical or observable application in the real world or in the Cosmere. So it's not really awkward for Syl or for anyone else. Even if Vasher is absolutely correct, he is still who he is and still feels like he is the same person he originally was, even if the technically 'pure' original version of him went off into the Beyond long ago. Same is true for Kaladin. Same is true for all the other Cognitive Shadows out there. 

Brandon has said that this is a question he won't answer - probably because it doesn't actually make a difference. The only exception here where it makes things different that I can think of is the new spren of the Blackthorn - he has all of Dalinar's memories, but was crafted from the spiritual realm by Dalinar himself. Essentially, he is the same as Dalinar, but he received all those memories at a time when he was not ready for what they might mean for him. Therefore, he rejects them and claims he will take his own path. Time will tell whether he eventually accepts the lessons that OG Dalinar was trying to pass on, but in the meantime he will likely have some very awkward interactions with Navani, Adolin, Renarin, etc. Probably trying to kill them.

We also know that Cognitive Shadows can be influenced by others' perceptions of them. They are kind of like spren in that regard - since they are made purely of investiture, the general populous having particular expectations of them can mold them a little bit over long periods of time. So it's fair to say that eventually they will change enough that they are different from the person they used to be. But who is to say whether the original person would or would not have made the same changes over time if they were also immortal and placed in the same situations? Again, no way to know any of these answers for certain.

But definitely fun and interesting to consider the implications and explore them!

[Argenti he/him]

9 minutes ago, CognitiveShadow said:

This question is more of a philosophical one. Vasher probably wouldn't admit it, but he's a very philosophical person - he questions everything and analyzes even whether he can trust that he is still the same person he used to be, even though it feels fo rhim like he is.

Essentially, it's like the question of Last Thursdayism. What if everything we know to exist didn't actually start until last Thursday and it was all created (our memories and historical records, etc.) at that time. Is there any way to know? If that is true.. well all of our lives up to that point weren't real but are just fabricated memories.

Similarly, what if we have souls and our souls move into a different body each day but inherit those memories? No way to know if that's true or not true. But if it is, we are technically not who we think we are. But even then, we are still ourselves for that day.

You can think up a ton of different questions like this, but at the end of the day it doesn't have a practical or observable application in the real world or in the Cosmere. So it's not really awkward for Syl or for anyone else. Even if Vasher is absolutely correct, he is still who he is and still feels like he is the same person he originally was, even if the technically 'pure' original version of him went off into the Beyond long ago. Same is true for Kaladin. Same is true for all the other Cognitive Shadows out there. 

Brandon has said that this is a question he won't answer - probably because it doesn't actually make a difference. The only exception here where it makes things different that I can think of is the new spren of the Blackthorn - he has all of Dalinar's memories, but was crafted from the spiritual realm by Dalinar himself. Essentially, he is the same as Dalinar, but he received all those memories at a time when he was not ready for what they might mean for him. Therefore, he rejects them and claims he will take his own path. Time will tell whether he eventually accepts the lessons that OG Dalinar was trying to pass on, but in the meantime he will likely have some very awkward interactions with Navani, Adolin, Renarin, etc. Probably trying to kill them.

We also know that Cognitive Shadows can be influenced by others' perceptions of them. They are kind of like spren in that regard - since they are made purely of investiture, the general populous having particular expectations of them can mold them a little bit over long periods of time. So it's fair to say that eventually they will change enough that they are different from the person they used to be. But who is to say whether the original person would or would not have made the same changes over time if they were also immortal and placed in the same situations? Again, no way to know any of these answers for certain.

But definitely fun and interesting to consider the implications and explore them!

...A cognitive shadow claims it's the real person?

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

37 minutes ago, Argenti said:

...A cognitive shadow claims it's the real person?

hahah or claim's that it's at least indistinguishable from the real person 

Another good example for those who have seen the Prestige (warning, major spoilers though I tried to be somewhat vague. If you haven't seen it you absolutely should cause it's amazing)

Spoiler

The guy makes copies of himself in order to do a transportation 'trick'. The copies are real, and he sets a trap so that one of them - likely the original - drowns and dies. Then the copy version shows up on the other side of the theater.

Is it still the same guy? Or is it a copy? Does it matter? The copy continues doing what the original one would do.... and as far as they know they just continue to survive the trick. But that's because they are created brand new each time the trick is done. So they have no memory of being dropped into a glass cage full of water and drowning each time.

So - still the same even though it's a copy. But also not the original. But does it matter? That's where it becomes more of a philosophical question than one relevant to observable reality

 

Edited February 13, 2025 by CognitiveShadow
punctuation