But what can a 5th Ideal Windrunner Do?

[Vin(Diesel)]

Kaladin attained the 5th Ideal, got stuffed full of Stormlight, and then became a Herald and left. 

Why on earth couldn't we have seen what powers a 5th Ideal Windrunner has? All the fans were speculating about it, he reached the 5th Ideal, and bang, he's gone. 

What the hey, Brandon? 

I guess we know he can hold a lot of Stormlight, but that was obvious.

For that matter, we don't really know what a 5th Ideal Skybreaker can do, despite Szeth reaching the 5th Ideal, because Nale is a Herald, not just a 5th Ideal Skybreaker, so we don't know what abilities of his are from his Ideals, and Szeth renounced his bond immediately after reaching the 5th Ideal.

Why don't we get to know what the 5th Ideal does?

[logicless.bt]

I think that -- like the Blackthorn spren -- it's Brandon having his cake and eating it too. The readers WANT to see a fifth ideal Radiant, and it's the fifth book. Someone has leveled up every book. It's clearly time.

But Brandon wants to save the true reveal for later on down the line. So he writes that 2-3 Radiants hit the 5th Ideal (imo Shallan hit the 5th, we just couldn't tell in the spiritual realm) but they all do so under circumstances where the changes are invisible until the book ends. Readers get the satisfaction of seeing characters complete their journeys but the real secrets get saved for 10 years later.

[EdgedancerJacob he/him]

I think it's likely just a much, much stronger storing of Investiture. Essentially no new abilities, but a much higher power level. 

[Ninth of the Night]

I was a little disappointed about that as well, but I think we were just expecting more from the 5th Ideal when in actuality it doesn't offer anything more than an increase in power/proficiency. The Blade, Plate, and Surges are all unlocked by the 4th Ideal for every order, so there's not really much left to gain for the 5th.

Still, it feels like we got cheated on some displays of power, not just with 5th Ideal Radiants, but also with the Heralds. We got some snippets that were most certainly intriguing, and I know the rest has to be saved for the back half when there will be more focus on the Heralds... I just really wish we could have at least gotten the full scene of Taln and Ash dominating the Fused.

Also I'm a little sad that we didn't get much more exposure to Kaladin's armor. Why do his windspren barely speak to him? It was so cute whenever Shallan's or Adolin's plate called out to them, would have been sweet for Kaladin to get the same treatment. Guess we'll learn why that is later... In a decade or so

[WordOfBrandon]

Its possible the 5th Ideal does more, but Kaladin basically didn't demonstrate it.  He basically watched Szeth fight for a few minutes and then nightblood consumed all stormlight.

[Blackroot]

I thought that it mentioned in passing in WaT that the 5th ideal meant immortality. Can't find the quote, it was around the time Kaladin and Szeth both said it.

Matches other top tier invested entities.

Kinda boring in isolation.

Feel like we should have heard about it already if that's the case.

[Forged Herald]

28 minutes ago, Blackroot said:

I thought that it mentioned in passing in WaT that the 5th ideal meant immortality. Can't find the quote, it was around the time Kaladin and Szeth both said it.

Matches other top tier invested entities.

Kinda boring in isolation.

Feel like we should have heard about it already if that's the case.

It's right after Szeth forswears his oaths. 

 

Edited December 22, 2024 by Forged Herald

[Ewery1]

1 hour ago, Forged Herald said:

It's right after Szeth forswears his oaths. 

 

I feel like this is due to Szeth rejecting Heraldness, not the 5th Ideal specifically. I find it hard to believe that all 5th Ideal Radiants would’ve broken their bonds if this was the case.

[StanLemon]

Based on Honor's comments, I'm assuming it's significant increased usage of the Full usage and strength of their two Surges

[MagicMaggot]

I kinda feel like that is the same problem we have had for quite some time now, where non-pov orders, radiants and powers are around, but we don't really get to see their powers and power progression like we did with our first radiants. I mean TaW was basically the first time we saw the division surge or some current stonewards in action, for example, although they were around for some time. If there is no special reason to go into it, the books are too crowded already to do so. Reaching the fifth ideal was similar this time, because while it was supposed to be an important character moment, it wasn't a situation that could be solved with radiant powers, since they were up against a herald here, so we didn't get to see much of the powers. 
I share the frustration, though.

And in general I feel reaching the 5th ideal didn't live up to the difficulty I expected of it. Especially for Kaladin, it seemed more like a small addendum and not a new relevation, after his grueling way towards the 4th. Felt more like just finishing up that chapter than like the character progress I had come to expect. With Seth it was a bit better, but mostly because he was still so very broken that daring to decide for himself could actually be sold as an epiphany. 
They certainly didn't hype me like ideals often gave me before, even from less central characters.

Edited December 22, 2024 by MagicMaggot

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

The extra power they gain is finishing their character arc.

[Localconfusi0n]

4 hours ago, Ewery1 said:

I feel like this is due to Szeth rejecting Heraldness, not the 5th Ideal specifically. I find it hard to believe that all 5th Ideal Radiants would’ve broken their bonds if this was the case.

That makes the most sense. Alternatively, the 5th ideal could make them a perfect vessel for Stormlight, no more leaks. If that's the case, then so long as they remain as Invested as someone at the 5th heightening constantly, they'd be immortal. Atleast I think the 5th heightening is the one that stops aging, idk haven't read Warbreaker in a minute. 

[KingWindrunner]

10 hours ago, Ewery1 said:

I feel like this is due to Szeth rejecting Heraldness, not the 5th Ideal specifically. I find it hard to believe that all 5th Ideal Radiants would’ve broken their bonds if this was the case.

I seen in the coppermind that the bond is so strong at the 5th ideal that there's no way to break it except by death

[alder24]

4 hours ago, KingWindrunner said:

I seen in the coppermind that the bond is so strong at the 5th ideal that there's no way to break it except by death

WIthout killing thier spren. But because Highspren don't bond this deep, they can break their bonds without becoming a Deadeye. OB ch 108:

Quote

“Regardless,” Kaladin said, “you’re about half a year too late. So you might as well accept it.”
“Not too late. Killing you would free her—though it would be painful for her. There are other ways, at least until the Final Ideal is sworn."

 

16 hours ago, Forged Herald said:

It's right after Szeth forswears his oaths. 

I also think this is because Szeth rejected Ishar's order to become a Herald when he swore the 5th Ideal. If all 5th Ideal Radiants were suddenly immortal, there would be no need for new Radiants between Desolations as eventually all would reach the 5th Ideal. WaT ch 133:

Quote

“Disobedient!” Ishu’s voice somewhere. “Szeth, all you have to do is obey!”

 

[Forged Herald]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

WIthout killing thier spren. But because Highspren don't bond this deep, they can break their bonds without becoming a Deadeye. OB ch 108:

 

I also think this is because Szeth rejected Ishar's order to become a Herald when he swore the 5th Ideal. If all 5th Ideal Radiants were suddenly immortal, there would be no need for new Radiants between Desolations as eventually all would reach the 5th Ideal. WaT ch 133:

 

How is rejecting to be a Herald foolish?

Rejecting an eternity of torture sounds pretty rational.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Forged Herald said:

How is rejecting to be a Herald foolish?

Rejecting an eternity of torture sounds pretty rational.

Correction, rejecting eternity is rational. But Ishar was not rational, he was insane so he can say whatever he wants.

[Master Silver]

On 12/22/2024 at 5:42 PM, SwordNimiForPresident said:

The extra power they gain is finishing their character arc.

Now that was funny. We had been going back and forth on whether the 5th ideal granted "functional" immortality as in you don't age, sort of like the fifth heightening. I am almost certain that the aluminum cage or fabrils we see used on Kaladin in Rhythms of War and also how they put the Radiants to sleep wouldn't work on a fourth ideal radiant. I am still very surprised that no Windrunner swore the 4th ideal during the battle. Getting back to the fifth ideal, I suppose it would make sense that they no longer leaked Stormlight and that they are capable of holding a great deal of it. I believe it would also make sense if swearing the fifth ideal gave them a perfect gem heart (those have to come from somewhere). Do you age while holding stormlight? Endowments investiture seems to be better at sticking around and if it must be said investing an individual. Logic says you still grow, age, and change while holding life light or tower light. We also know that the Skybreakers at this time had zero 5th ideal Radiants, so it is unlikely that you become functionally immortal. Although, with the dissident Skybreakers it could be that all who have the capacity to swear the fifth ideal chose differently than those loyal to Nale. Additionally, it must be only a very small number that make it to the fifth ideal, and Nale likely killed most of them I would think. Then again, the Heralds seem to have been going crazy only more recently. Depending on how you read the reveal

[Rockgod]

I feel like the 5th ideal is much more symbolic to the individual. The words matter less than the individual’s journey to them. In Kaladins case his journey led him to self-appreciation, and admitting his happiness and self worth came before his other ideals. I believe for example Lopen and other windrunners would have the same or very similar first 4 ideals, but the heart behind the last one would be shaped by that persons personal experience of what the first 4 meant to their journey/destination.
This is backed up by the end of WaT when Kaladin assumes his place as a herald. He did not have to speak the exact oath, it mattered what was In his heart and spirit when he spoke the words he did. He exuded the same intent with different words than the heralds did.

the powers that come with the 5th ideal tho. I think again it’s creative and slightly geared to the individual. The most important thing I think that comes with any 5th ideal no matter what order you are a part of is acceptance of oneself and true nature. I think understanding that naturally lends itself to increasing your power underneath whatever order you are a part of.