Nightblood evolving?

[WindWaker]

In WaT, we are told that large concentrations of Investiture left alone for extended periods can eventually develop sentience. We even see evidence of this with Honor, as Dalinar experiences its growing sentience when he touches it.

Other than that, Nightblood exhibits qualities that resemble a Shard. With its Intent of "Destroy Evil," Nightblood never grasped the meaning behind this, and instead indiscriminately destroys anything it comes into contact with. However, in this book we see Nightblood beginning to evolve. It starts to display self-reflection, questioning its own understanding of what "evil" truly is. Additionally, Nightblood also seems to have a stronger sense of time, improved recall of those around it, and, most notably, the ability to resist the urge to consume Investiture. 

Why now though? Nightblood has existed for at least a couple of centuries at this point, so why now? My theory is that in killing Rayse and coming into direct contact with a Shard may have affected it.

Looking forward, how do you think Nightblood might evolve further? I feel that it would stop stealing Investiture from its wielder, and perhaps even begin to grant Szeth access to Surges. Feeding off only from the investiture of those it killed.

What do you guys think

Edited December 18, 2024 by WindWaker

[The Sovereign]

2 hours ago, WindWaker said:

and perhaps even begin to grant Szeth access to Surges.

Nightblood does this in WaT. Szeth uses Abrasion via Nightblood in the Bondsmith Monastery.

Edited December 18, 2024 by The Sovereign

[MagicMaggot]

2 hours ago, WindWaker said:

Why now though? Nightblood has existed for at least a couple of centuries at this point, so why now? My theory is that in killing Rayse and coming into direct contact with a Shard may have affected it.

There is also the awakened sibling, which is said to have quite the effect on spren and their bonds. Adolin was basically just passing through Urithiru between his shadesmar trip and Azir, but he remarks how much more lively and healthy Maya got, and how much their bond has been strengthened. While Nightblood isn't the same, of course, it was there for a comparable amount of time, and it could have made a difference. 

[+robardin he/him]

47 minutes ago, The Sovereign said:

Nightblood does this in WaT. Szeth uses Abrasion via Nightblood in the Bondsmith Monastery.

I wondered what that meant, that Nightblood had been talking to the Honorblades, then said he had learned from them how to grant Szeth the Lashings, "and more", as "even a spren can give those".

First, the Lashings as we originally learned about them in the prologue to WoK, were the Windrunner terms for Gravitation and Adhesion.

Second, when he became a Skybreaker squire and could fly again with Gravitation, Szeth thought of that as a Lashing, and that "while not all of the Lashings were restored to him" (i.e., not Adhension), this was the one that let him into the sky, which is what he had missed the most.

Third, Nightblood grants him either the Windrunner Lashings or the Skybreaker Lashings for flight (Gravitation)... But had never talked to Jezrien's Honorblade (with Vyre), or with Nale's (not in the wagon/dismissed by Nale)! Along with the "and more" comment,

...is Szeth effectively like Yelig-Nar, with all ten Surges, except he has to have enough Investiture to keep feeding Nightblood?

[The Sovereign]

19 minutes ago, robardin said:

...is Szeth effectively like Yelig-Nar, with all ten Surges, except he has to have enough Investiture to keep feeding Nightblood?

I would guess Nightblood knows how to bestow all of the surges except Adhesion & Gravitation. He learned Division from Chana's blade. He also doesn't interact with Ishar's blade, so I would guess he doesn't bestow the Bondsmith versions of Adhesion or Tension either. Something else to consider regarding Nightblood bestowing Surges is Intent. In this case; Nightblood's intent. It is plausible he was ALWAYS capable of doing it, but simply didn't know how and/or never tried. Once he wanted to and was able to ask the Honorblades about the process, he could do it.

37 minutes ago, MagicMaggot said:

There is also the awakened sibling, which is said to have quite the effect on spren and their bonds. Adolin was basically just passing through Urithiru between his shadesmar trip and Azir, but he remarks how much more lively and healthy Maya got, and how much their bond has been strengthened. While Nightblood isn't the same, of course, it was there for a comparable amount of time, and it could have made a difference. 

The Siblings' effect on Spren seems to only be on those in close proximity with the Urithiru. I don't think the awakening of the Sibling is really related to what is going on with Maya. That is very likely the result of what Adolin shared with Maya in Lasting Integrity and the growing influence (and eventual release) of Ba-Ado-Mishram. 

Edited December 18, 2024 by The Sovereign

[MagicMaggot]

59 minutes ago, The Sovereign said:

The Siblings' effect on Spren seems to only be on those in close proximity with the Urithiru. I don't think the awakening of the Sibling is really related to what is going on with Maya. That is very likely the result of what Adolin shared with Maya in Lasting Integrity and the growing influence (and eventual release) of Ba-Ado-Mishram. 

Well, I'm going by Adolin's and Maya's own perception here.

Quote

She had been changing quickly, ever since their visit to the tower. A living Urithiru appeared to have invigorated her, and had also somehow strengthened whatever was happening between them. She said the Light of the tower made her feel refreshed, and he felt her in his mind stronger now. She could see into the Physical Realm through his eyes, including when he hadn’t summoned her as a Blade, and she’d been responding more and more, even volunteering comments.

While that isn't conclusive, of course, I'd suggest that it's more than enough to speculate that it could have had an effect. Seth and Nightblood were at the awakened Urithiru. Not for long, but neither was Maya. 

Edited December 18, 2024 by MagicMaggot

[+robardin he/him]

58 minutes ago, The Sovereign said:

I would guess Nightblood knows how to bestow all of the surges except Adhesion & Gravitation.

No, he was definitely using Gravitation at the very least, the Surge he'd be most familiar with after so many years of carrying the Windrunner Blade and then being a Skybreaker, while taking down all the Fused-like Shin Honorbearers with Nightblood after releasing his bond to 12124.

He stopped stalling and slid on a Lashing across the ground [this could be sliding via Adhesion, Edgedancer-style, or simply Lashing himself across with Gravitation]. ... Szeth Lashed himself backward -- abruptly -- moving in an unnatural way, to anyone not used to Lashings. ... Szeth landed softly on the stones as a third Blade clanged to the ground at his feet ["landed" = he had been floating, or just did a jump?]

Edited December 18, 2024 by robardin

[The Sovereign]

25 minutes ago, robardin said:

No, he was definitely using Gravitation at the very least, the Surge he'd be most familiar with after so many years of carrying the Windrunner Blade and then being a Skybreaker, while taking down all the Fused-like Shin Honorbearers with Nightblood after releasing his bond to 12124.

He stopped stalling and slid on a Lashing across the ground [this could be sliding via Adhesion, Edgedancer-style, or simply Lashing himself across with Gravitation]. ... Szeth Lashed himself backward -- abruptly -- moving in an unnatural way, to anyone not used to Lashings. ... Szeth landed softly on the stones as a third Blade clanged to the ground at his feet ["landed" = he had been floating, or just did a jump?]

My timeline must be off then, I don't have my copy of WaT in front of me. 

@MagicMaggot I stand corrected. Generally I try to have the source material in front of me when making those kind of posts obviously my memory was off.

Edited December 18, 2024 by The Sovereign

[WindWaker]

1 hour ago, MagicMaggot said:

There is also the awakened sibling, which is said to have quite the effect on spren and their bonds. Adolin was basically just passing through Urithiru between his shadesmar trip and Azir, but he remarks how much more lively and healthy Maya got, and how much their bond has been strengthened. While Nightblood isn't the same, of course, it was there for a comparable amount of time, and it could have made a difference. 

1 hour ago, The Sovereign said:

The Siblings' effect on Spren seems to only be on those in close proximity with the Urithiru. I don't think the awakening of the Sibling is really related to what is going on with Maya. That is very likely the result of what Adolin shared with Maya in Lasting Integrity and the growing influence (and eventual release) of Ba-Ado-Mishram. 

Hmm, I am not sure if the Sibling had any effect, as other deadeyes have not really recovered since the Sibling awakened. I think Sovereign is correct in that the effect is more due to the Ba-Ado-Mishram restoring some of the connection.

Though I do not think either explains the change in Nightblood. I wonder if it has to do with bonds. Maybe Szeth bonded with Nightblood, giving him sentience? But then that would have happened with Vasher who is probably the being that held Nightblood the longest. Or maybe 2 individuals simultaneously saying the 5th oath gave him more sentience. Hmm.

1 hour ago, robardin said:

...is Szeth effectively like Yelig-Nar, with all ten Surges, except he has to have enough Investiture to keep feeding Nightblood?

I think that may be the case, since Nightblood was created with Shardblade as inspiration. What I find interesting is that since Nightblood can steal pretty much any kind of investiture, keyed or not, anyone wielding Nightblood can potentially have the power of a Radiant. 

 

[Isilel]

Vasher has been stifling Nightblood's development. Shashara had insisted from the beginning that Nightblood could evolve, but Vasher never believed this and kept saying that he was just a sword and couldn't change. Perceptions matter for spren-like entities.

IMHO, experiencing  other bearers - Vivenna and Szeth, as well as interacting with Lift, is what allowed Nightblood to progress.

 

[BridgeBoi]

If Nightblood continues to develop (granting surges, not consuming its user's investiture) Imagine how powerful it could be.

Just give Nightblood to Taln and send him into battle.

Retribution's army would probably be destroyed within a day.

[+robardin he/him]

13 minutes ago, BridgeBoi said:

If Nightblood continues to develop (granting surges, not consuming its user's investiture) Imagine how powerful it could be.

Just give Nightblood to Taln and send him into battle.

Retribution's army would probably be destroyed within a day.

This raises an interesting question: how are the Neo-Heralds going to power their Surges, now that they've reclaimed their oaths and their Blades?

They used to have a direct conduit to Honor and didn't need to infuse from spheres of Stormlight, right?

Will that be true after the renewed Oathpact?

In which case yeah... Taln with Nightblood would be TERRIFYING!

 

[Gloomspren she/her]

3 hours ago, Isilel said:

Vasher has been stifling Nightblood's development. Shashara had insisted from the beginning that Nightblood could evolve, but Vasher never believed this and kept saying that he was just a sword and couldn't change. Perceptions matter for spren-like entities.

IMHO, experiencing  other bearers - Vivenna and Szeth, as well as interacting with Lift, is what allowed Nightblood to progress.

I think it can be paralleled with baby honor… Nightblood was imbued with the intent to “destroy evil” and like you said was very much limited to that by vasher who took part in creating him and didn’t think he COULD evolve much past that due to the initial flaw in the command given. 
 

But clearly, interacting with the Honorblades, with Szeth on his personal journey, and Kaladin (and everyone else) he IS growing. His last scene of CHOOSING to stop and not kill his friends was epic not only because of the moment but also because we haven’t seen Nightblood CHOOSE before…

“Evidently someone other than Szeth had listened to the lessons Kaladin had been teaching.”

Obviously his powers are evolving too if Nightblood himself is learning beyond the initial command that was put upon him… I cannot wait to see his character development now, because it seems like he is gaining more spren like qualities from being on Roshar with more “swords” like himself and with carriers exposing him to new experiences changing his understanding of what “destroy evil” MEANS… back to baby Honor being exposed to new experiences to increase its understanding of what Honor means.

[WindWaker]

17 hours ago, Gloomspren said:

I think it can be paralleled with baby honor… Nightblood was imbued with the intent to “destroy evil” and like you said was very much limited to that by vasher who took part in creating him and didn’t think he COULD evolve much past that due to the initial flaw in the command given. 
 

But clearly, interacting with the Honorblades, with Szeth on his personal journey, and Kaladin (and everyone else) he IS growing. His last scene of CHOOSING to stop and not kill his friends was epic not only because of the moment but also because we haven’t seen Nightblood CHOOSE before…

“Evidently someone other than Szeth had listened to the lessons Kaladin had been teaching.”

Obviously his powers are evolving too if Nightblood himself is learning beyond the initial command that was put upon him… I cannot wait to see his character development now, because it seems like he is gaining more spren like qualities from being on Roshar with more “swords” like himself and with carriers exposing him to new experiences changing his understanding of what “destroy evil” MEANS… back to baby Honor being exposed to new experiences to increase its understanding of what Honor means.

Perhaps interacting with other swords gave him more perspective. Before it only with other humans which might not have helped perhaps.

[drunkenbotanist]

Nightblood has also absorbed a great deal of investiture since Warbreaker. Killing Rayse alone. It does seem like the more investigated nightblood gets, the more likely it should be able to grow and adapt, as investiture is basically always reaching towards consciousness 

[+robardin he/him]

2 hours ago, drunkenbotanist said:

Nightblood has also absorbed a great deal of investiture since Warbreaker. Killing Rayse alone. It does seem like the more investigated nightblood gets, the more likely it should be able to grow and adapt, as investiture is basically always reaching towards consciousness 

Well that is kind of the $100,000 question, or should I say, the 100,000 BEU question: where does all that Investiture go?

I mean, Nightblood is always leaking and dripping black smoke, which is apparently "corrupted Investiture". And he does reach a point where no more is drawn and he falls into a stupor, like a food coma. But then later, he wakes up, ready to eat more. It gets "digested"???

It's kind of the same question as with Kirby, right?

[MagicMaggot]

8 hours ago, robardin said:

where does all that Investiture go?

My instinct would be to look at anti-light here, and thus expect most of the investirure to actually be cancelled out/destroyed. Especially with WaT giving us confirmation that Vasher was aware of, and working with, anti-light. No idea how  that would be implemented in Nightblood, and why that would lead to his food coma, but that's a different question.  

Edited December 20, 2024 by MagicMaggot

[listerfeend]

2 hours ago, MagicMaggot said:

My instinct would be to look at anti-light here, and thus expect most of the investirure to actually be cancelled out/destroyed. Especially with WaT giving us confirmation that Vasher was aware of, and working with, anti-light. No idea how  that would be implemented in Nightblood, and why that would lead to his food coma, but that's a different question.  

Ok, so Investiture, like energy, cannot be created or destroyed, so it is definitely not destroyed. Light/Anti-Light interactions mirror matter/anti-matter in our own universe, essentially, the Investiture/Anti-Investiture, when they come in contact, annihilate and release a tremendous amount of energy (thus the explosions in RoW). We don't see this happening with Nightblood at all, Nightblood does not create explosions every time it eats Investiture. I think the generally accepted and prevailing theory is that all of the Investiture that "leaks" out of the sword basically "evaporates" and is reabsorbed into the Investiture Cycle. 

[Argenti he/him]

1 hour ago, listerfeend said:

Ok, so Investiture, like energy, cannot be created or destroyed, so it is definitely not destroyed. Light/Anti-Light interactions mirror matter/anti-matter in our own universe, essentially, the Investiture/Anti-Investiture, when they come in contact, annihilate and release a tremendous amount of energy (thus the explosions in RoW). We don't see this happening with Nightblood at all, Nightblood does not create explosions every time it eats Investiture. I think the generally accepted and prevailing theory is that all of the Investiture that "leaks" out of the sword basically "evaporates" and is reabsorbed into the Investiture Cycle. 

I think it's kinda like a black hole. Anything that hits the "event horizon" (Cut by the blade) is consumed, and absorbed into the blade. While it's in there, the investiture is made superdense, and starts acting weird. It leaks out , much like hawking radiation does a black hole. I bet you could pass between realms with nightblood, much like a perpendicularity. 

[MagicMaggot]

52 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

Ok, so Investiture, like energy, cannot be created or destroyed, so it is definitely not destroyed. Light/Anti-Light interactions mirror matter/anti-matter in our own universe, essentially, the Investiture/Anti-Investiture, when they come in contact, annihilate and release a tremendous amount of energy (thus the explosions in RoW).

You're probably right, I didn't think that through, that was just my first association. And the evaporation never struck me as consistent with the amount of investiture being burned here, especially since it just went away without any effect, as I recall? Whatever, probably inattentive reading on my part.

Concerning the light-cancellation reaction though:
Looking into the text, the severity of the reaction does seem to be dependent on factors like "pressure" - though I honestly don't really get what pressure's magical equivalent is supposed to be in this case, but well, I guess that's higher fabrial mechanics... 

"I thought … I thought the reaction would be calm, like hot and cold water mixing… .”
“Hot and cold water don’t immediately annihilate one another when they meet,” Navani said. “Besides, heat under pressure—­like Light in a gemstone—­is another matter.”
“Yes,” Raboniel said, blinking several times, seeming dazed. “If you use the lightning of a stormform to ignite something under pressure, it always explodes. Perhaps if Voidlight and anti-­Voidlight meet in open air, you’d get no more than a pop. 

When spren, radiants and fused were killed with anti-light-reactions we mostly just got some very localized heat, not greater explosions, while Navani's scholar's did manage to explode a room with one voidlight gem. That's why my mind didn't instantly go to explosions with that, and thought that it might be a viable part of Nightblood's mechanism. Well.. that, and that Vasher brought the first mentioned anti-light, but I guess as an ancient scholar that shouldn't be surprising either was. 

[Qianweilian He/him]

45 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

the Investiture Cycle

Fourth grade Scadrian teacher in Era 4 explaining the Investiture Cycle to his students:

Kill god->take a piece->give investiture to literally everyone who's born->guy steals everyone's breath->makes sword->sword eats breath->????

[+robardin he/him]

17 minutes ago, Qianweilian said:

Fourth grade Scadrian teacher in Era 4 explaining the Investiture Cycle to his students:

Kill god->take a piece->give investiture to literally everyone who's born->guy steals everyone's breath->makes sword->sword eats breath->????

"... Worship sword?"

"No, L'il Wayne, that's not right. Try again."

"... Worship sword?"

"That's not what I meant by 'try again!' That's not the right answer!"

"... Why not?"

"... Class dismissed!!"

[Qianweilian He/him]

L'il Wayne: Wait, if it's a cycle, then doesn't it have to loop back around to "kill god"?

Teacher: ...I guess we're going on a field trip...

Edited December 20, 2024 by Qianweilian

[Dalluminum he/him]

Guys, Nightblood just needed therapy.

 

Also, Investiture cycle? Love it. We need to make a textbook for an Investiture 101 class sometime.

[Qianweilian He/him]

1 hour ago, Dalluminum said:

We need to make a textbook

I totally want a Khriss Cosmere textbook