I don't get the big twists at all. Did Brandon Retcon Honor completely?

[KaladinWorldsinger]

35 minutes ago, therunner said:

If the Intent is there he must accept them.

I think Eshonai's death is framed as SF taking mercy on her. He chose to accept her words

36 minutes ago, therunner said:

Cultivation accepts Oaths from e.g. Willshapers, so it isn't just on Honor and his perception.

Oh I know that. I am talking Windrunners, Bondsmiths maybe shybreajers,stonewards, dustbringers for SF

18 minutes ago, Sophrosyne said:

your point is simply that someone holding Honor's power has always accepted the words therefore Honor's Intent matters, The Wind, Dalanar, The Sibling and Cultivation have all accepted words on various occasions, so that's moot.

I'm really not trying to be argumentative for the sake of it I'm just not sure what the root of this is. So I'm having trouble doing much more then, trying, to debunk the last thing you said. What about Radiant bonds makes it so that Honor's intent is a factor? and why is Cultivations intent, seemingly, not one?

SF chose to accept Eshonai's unspoken oaths. That is my point. Are we saying that is not at all connected to Honor the Shard?? Lopen was not making an oath, it was statement of wanting to improve, SF accepted that too. Honor must care about the intent behind the oath too then.

 

I don't see where I am losing you.

Cultivation accepts other oaths, like edgedancers and Willshapers.  

But SF is accepting his share of Radiant oaths

[Nitpicking]

8 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

But SF is accepting his share of Radiant oaths

As of the end of WaT, Sylphrena has stepped into that role. She accepts Kaladin's fifth ideal. Oddly, one of the epigraphs says that it was the Wind who did that.

[alder24]

10 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

I think Eshonai's death is framed as SF taking mercy on her. He chose to accept her words

Oh I know that. I am talking Windrunners, Bondsmiths maybe shybreajers,stonewards, dustbringers for SF

SF chose to accept Eshonai's unspoken oaths. That is my point. Are we saying that is not at all connected to Honor the Shard?? Lopen was not making an oath, it was statement of wanting to improve, SF accepted that too. Honor must care about the intent behind the oath too then.

 

I don't see where I am losing you.

Cultivation accepts other oaths, like edgedancers and Willshapers.  

But SF is accepting his share of Radiant oaths

But those are Radiant Oaths, they are structured to work like this, bound in this way by Ishar. The Stormfather is accepting them according to rules of Knights Radiants, which are a shared system of both Honor and Cultivation. Honor is the Oath aspect of this system, Cultivation is the progression, but they combine together and the Stormfather has to accept Oaths that express progression according to the paths set in stone for every Order. This is how it works for every single order. It doesn't matter that Windrunner are closer to Honor and their Ideals are accepted by the Stormfather, the Cultivation part of the system must be fulfilled and the Stormfather is bound to accept those Oath based on Intent and self-improvement. Pure Honor's aspect doesn't matter here because it has to be used together with Cultivation's aspect at every single instance. You can't just keep focusing on Honor alone when you're talking about Knights Radiant because they are a magic system encompassing two Shards, not just one. 

As for Eshonai, it's not just about saying the Words, it's about living them. She became the embodiment of the second Ideal of Willshapers during her death, she chose freedom, she said it in her mind and that was enough for the Stormfather to accept her Ideal. All in line with how Radiant Ideals work.

Edit:

But outside of the Radiant structure, when Dalinar and Navani asked the Stormfather to accept their marriage Oaths, he said that there are no foolish oaths, because he can now just think of pure Honor, without filtering it through Cultivation's aspect. The meaning of Oaths doesn't matter for Honor on its own, Knights Radiant combine the Oaths with the meaning because it’s a shared system. 

1 hour ago, Nitpicking said:

As of the end of WaT, Sylphrena has stepped into that role. She accepts Kaladin's fifth ideal. Oddly, one of the epigraphs says that it was the Wind who did that.

The Wind accepted Kaladin's 5th Ideal. WaT ch 140: 

Quote

These Words, the Wind whispered to Kaladin, are accepted.
Kaladin came alight with an explosion of power.

Edited December 23, 2024 by alder24

[Nitpicking]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

The Wind accepted Kaladin's 5th Ideal. WaT ch 140: 

My mistake. Syl accepts Kaladin's oath as a Herald:

Quote

 

“I,” Kaladin whispered, walking through that version, “accept this journey.”

The air split with a crack of thunder. When the reply came, it was Syl’s voice. These Words are accepted.

WaT Chapter 144, no page # because I have the ebook

 

Still makes my point that she's stepped into the space the Stormfather vacated.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

12 hours ago, alder24 said:

But those are Radiant Oaths, they are structured to work like this, bound in this way by Ishar. The Stormfather is accepting them according to rules of Knights Radiants, which are a shared system of both Honor and Cultivation. Honor is the Oath aspect of this system, Cultivation is the progression, but they combine together and the Stormfather has to accept Oaths that express progression according to the paths set in stone for every Order. This is how it works for every single order. It doesn't matter that Windrunner are closer to Honor and their Ideals are accepted by the Stormfather, the Cultivation part of the system must be fulfilled and the Stormfather is bound to accept those Oath based on Intent and self-improvement. Pure Honor's aspect doesn't matter here because it has to be used together with Cultivation's aspect at every single instance. You can't just keep focusing on Honor alone when you're talking about Knights Radiant because they are a magic system encompassing two Shards, not just one. 

As for Eshonai, it's not just about saying the Words, it's about living them. She became the embodiment of the second Ideal of Willshapers during her death, she chose freedom, she said it in her mind and that was enough for the Stormfather to accept her Ideal. All in line with how Radiant Ideals work.

Ok, so accepting that Honor the Shard only cares about  the self improvement of Radiants because of the influence of Cultivation (if this is what Brandon intended from the beginning, then he could have easily clarified this in his Tanavast Visions), in the case of Eshonai SF has not yet bonded Dalinar. SF doesn't see Honor in the heralds without bonding Dalinar. And Honor the shard also doesn't understand the intent behind oaths. Then how does SF understand the intent enough to accept Eshonai's oaths?

@Atlas333

Also, now that I am back from life stuff, I do want to revive the discussion on why Honorspren were singled out to be "mostly made of Honor". Honorspren as a whole end up caring about the intent behind an oath(not as rigid)

The answer here was that Honorspren care about intent because Tanavast cared about Intent, not Honor the Shard. But if that was the case, why specify that Honorspren were "mostly made of Honor". What purpose does this information serve?

If the info was that Honorspren were created from tiny pieces of Tanavast's own soul, this would make perfect sense why Honorspren care about intent.

The theory posted earlier was that this also explained why cultivationspren seemed to care about listening and remembering the forgotten. This doesn't exactly mash well with Cultivation's intent, so it must be Koraveri's intent. Again, the info states that cultivationspren are made entirely of the peices of the Shard, which means nothing now.

I think that listening and remembering the forgotten is the only way for Society to grow and be nurtured, which then fits perfectly with Cultivation the Shard in a broader societal way. Also, edgedancers are like therapists to individuals, they recognise the fact that to help a person grow, you have to listen and understand them. How else will they grow?

Remember the forgotten helps a society, points out holes in the structure of that society. It helps people to not make the same mistakes again.

So I fully believe that cultivationspren perfectly embody the shardic intent.

Another food for thought:

Honorspren ,"mostly made of Honor", care about the intent of an oath. Highspren, a mix of Honor and Cultivation, care about only the oath.

I think this is a contradiction 

Edited December 24, 2024 by KaladinWorldsinger

[alder24]

2 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Ok, so accepting that Honor the Shard only cares about  the self improvement of Radiants because of the influence of Cultivation (if this is what Brandon intended from the beginning, then he could have easily clarified this in his Tanavast Visions), in the case of Eshonai SF has not yet bonded Dalinar. SF doesn't see Honor in the heralds without bonding Dalinar. And Honor the shard also doesn't understand the intent behind oaths. Then how does SF understand the intent enough to accept Eshonai's oaths?

Because he is and has been a part of the larger system of Knights Radiants since the very beginning of it. He's obligated to accept it if a Radiant says the correct words with the Intent. The Stormfather does understand intent and meaning, but as an Avatar of Honor and Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow, he normally doesn't care about it. He cares about those things when it comes to Radiants because he must do it as that's part of the system shared with Cultivation. 

[KaladinWorldsinger]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Because he is and has been a part of the larger system of Knights Radiants since the very beginning of it. He's obligated to accept it if a Radiant says the correct words with the Intent. The Stormfather does understand intent and meaning, but as an Avatar of Honor and Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow, he normally doesn't care about it. He cares about those things when it comes to Radiants because he must do it as that's part of the system shared with Cultivation. 

SF did say in Oathbringer that bonding Dalinar gave him understanding about Honor in humans. He says" It makes sense to me now as it didn't before" and "I hated them for their broken oaths, but now I see honor in the poor beings you call heralds"

In the first 4 books there was a strong theme of spren(who were faaar more changeless and uniform than humans, and could not break oaths) not understanding about Honor in Humans. SF clearly had a rigid understanding of oaths too. But the shard itself still cared about the intent behind the oath

[Knuti]

2 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

SF did say in Oathbringer that bonding Dalinar gave him understanding about Honor in humans. He says" It makes sense to me now as it didn't before" and "I hated them for their broken oaths, but now I see honor in the poor beings you call heralds"

In the first 4 books there was a strong theme of spren(who were faaar more changeless and uniform than humans, and could not break oaths) not understanding about Honor in Humans. SF clearly had a rigid understanding of oaths too. But the shard itself still cared about the intent behind the oath

Let us remember, that all lore in SA is POV driven. If the POVs are told half-truths, it is very sift out the facts.

The Stormfather ist the very problem in the picture. He can lie and when he told us, that spren cannot lie, he lied through his teeth. That means, nothing of what the Stormfather has said, can be assumed canon any longer. Furthermore the Stormfather is the mixed entity of cognitive shadow of Tanavast and a splinter of Honor. Features of the Stormfather need not be features of the shard Honor.

To refer to Your original post: We have been conned, certainly, but it is no retcon.

[SOM1else he/him]

I can't remember what book it is in but I'm pretty sure it says that the Radiant Oaths were based on what Nohadon wrote in The Way of Kings. With the vision between Nohadon and Dalinar at the end hinting that Nohadon was more than a regular human it might explain why the Radiant Oaths are focused on self-improvement even though Honor doesn't care about that.

[alder24]

22 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

SF did say in Oathbringer that bonding Dalinar gave him understanding about Honor in humans. He says" It makes sense to me now as it didn't before" and "I hated them for their broken oaths, but now I see honor in the poor beings you call heralds"

Yes, he did. Before he bonded Dalinar he couldn't understand why would Radiatnts and Heralds broke their Oaths. That's the Honor part of him - all Oaths are important and binding, you can't break them. As their bond progressed he started to see why they did that, he started to see from a different point of view. But this doesn't mean that previously he didn't understand the intent behind Radiant Oaths because he has to look at them with Cultivation in mind. Radiants have to nail a very specific intent for their words to be accepted and the Stormfather can't just accept any words they say. That's how the system works. 

22 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

But the shard itself still cared about the intent behind the oath

It's the opposite.

[Asininity]

Retcon 100%
It feels like Honor was reduced to a slimy lawyer, focused on interpretation of words instead meaning behind them. I found no honor in it.
 

[Argenti he/him]

On 12/25/2024 at 8:29 PM, Asininity said:

Retcon 100%
It feels like Honor was reduced to a slimy lawyer, focused on interpretation of words instead meaning behind them. I found no honor in it.
 

That's cause you're thinking about it in the human sense of honor. From what we've seen, none of the shard are "good," in isolation (Maybe devotion?) Preservation would grind the world to a halt, ruin would break it. A shard that believes in "doing the right thing" and "Honesty" is way to good to be true.

[Asininity]

8 hours ago, Argenti said:

That's cause you're thinking about it in the human sense of honor. From what we've seen, none of the shard are "good," in isolation (Maybe devotion?) Preservation would grind the world to a halt, ruin would break it. A shard that believes in "doing the right thing" and "Honesty" is way to good to be true.

Oh, I do get that. Its similar to Odium being described as "divine hatred separated from the virtues that gave it context" but at the same time, he's much more than just that. Rayse could have become something greater, but Odium emerged due to how he and the Shard aligned together. Sazed becoming Discord is a possibility because the vessel shapes and gives the Shard its context. 

I just reject the notion that Honor is solely about upholding the letter of contracts. It should encompass everything that honor is meant to represent.
Like what happened to the Ideals? Bravery, Obedience, Leadership, Confidence - they aren't inherently "good", but power behind Honor resonates with them. This remains true even though Tanavast has been dead for a long time and wasn't exactly an exemplar of those in the first place.

[RedBlue]

This whole conversation is weird to me. I haven’t been expecting Honor to be the uncomplicated good guy for a while, and I hadn’t realised other readers were still seeing him/it that way.

(I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind or say that other readings are invalid, just adding my perspective.)

I think the switch came when I read Secret History. Preservation, which had previously been the ‘good’ Shard, was suddenly deeply suspect. My takeaway from that whole thing, with the added context of Wax & Wayne and Stormlight, was that all Shards are problem Shards. Some may be bigger problems than others, but they are all fundamentally broken and incredibly dangerous.