I don't get the big twists at all. Did Brandon Retcon Honor completely?

[KaladinWorldsinger]

So my main disappointment might be... I don't really get any of the main twists and revelations of the book.

So Honor sent a vision of the radiants destroying the planet using the surges. He did this "in a moment of weakness". But why was it weakness? He knows that Surgebinders would get extremely powerful after Honor dying, and he saw the same thing happen on Ashyn apparently. So isn't sending the visions totally the right idea? I guess the Stormfather being created somehow made sure that the Radiants didn't get powers with no limits, but Tanavast didn't know that when he was dying, did he?

Also, what exactly was Tanavast's character flaw? Koraveri tells him to not fight Odium many times, but then admits that Rayse is dangerous each time. Basically Tan had her agreement almost everytime. So then why did she react with "disgust and revulsion" in his death? Where did he actually go wrong? We know he didn't intend to lobotomize the Singers.

He betrayed BAM, but his reasoning was perfect right? Yes BAM could have killed Rayse, but that would have simply delayed the problem of Odium. BAM would have been the next Rayse sooner or later. Was Tanavast just naive(because he was tricked by Rayse)? Careless(because he didn't forsee the effect that BAM imprisonment would have)? Is that his flaw?

Because Rayse did need to be faught right? Letting Rayse run amok in the cosmere, killing more shards would have been wrong, right?

So every Knight Radiant ever (except Skybreakers) decided to give up their powers just because of a vague vision? Every single one? No one said the reason out loud? Why? Because seeing the future is forbidden?

It just feels like a series of events where no one did anything too wrong, but everything went to hell anyway. But Tan seems to believe that it was his fault. I felt that this was inevitable.

The Retcon

Was the shard of Honor always only about oaths???? I feel like that definitely was not true in the first four books.  Tanavast states that the shard Honor should not have been seperated from the love of Adonalsium (which is Devotion), but I feel like Honr the shard was always more than just oaths.

There is a direct line that states that the shard Honor doesn't care about self improvement. Really???? I feel like this is blatantly not true in the first 4 books. Evidence:

1) While Highspren look at the written oaths, Honorspren look at the intent behind them. That is the ideological divide between them. Notum addresses this in Oathbringer. If the shard Honor doesn't recognise self improvement, then Skybreaker Spren would be called Honorspren wouldn't they??? It is because Honorspren look at the intent behind the oaths that Windrunners deal with Protection over the law. That is not, apparently, the intent of the shard from the very beginning..... Heck even Skybreakers become the law at the 5 the ideal. How does that work if Honor doesn't care about self improvement?

We know before Stormfather, it was Honor accepting words after all

2) In words of Radiance, Kal nearly kills Syl because of his two conflicting oaths. Syl tells him that the only way to fix this is with a higher oath. But that doesn't make sense with what we know Honor is like. Kaladin swearing the third ideal would now just be a third conflicting oath.

3) We know the Windrunner 4th ideal has a theme of accepting your limits. That does not make sense with Honor, again.

More importantly, the Retcon is that in the first four books, we learned that Honor was about the intent of the oath most of the time, until near the death of Tanavast and the recreance, where Tanavast started raving about broken oaths. We know the radiants had talked to honor because stormfather said that Honor at this time told them that their war was not justified (humans were invaders). A radiant even theorizes that Honor was changing.

This timeline is now completely flipped. And I feel retconned.

Honor the shard used to be only about oaths(even if Tan understood humans), then as Tan was listening through the storms till the recreance.

It doesn't look like he was interacting at all with the Radiants to rave at them.

How did that Radiant know that Honor was changing at all? 

Why does stormfather say that that Honor told the radiants their war wasn't justified. When did Tanavast ever speak of the Dawnshards at all?

This feels like a massive Retcon so that the book's arc works( Adolin being unoathed, Szeth)

I feel like Honor was always about the intent behind the oaths, never just the oaths themselves 

[Soccorro]

I posted this in megathread already, I think BS completely rewrote the end of Dalinar/Honor/Odium plot because old vision of Honor didn't fit in "progressed themes of the plot" anymore + some fan pandering since a lot of people complained about Dalinar being a bad person that needs to die, so BS decided to get rid of problematic character

"I will say, oftentimes, I was actually talking about this to some people in the line just recently, characters will reach a point of decision. And at that point the outline usually will say "have them do this." But I will have written them for months at that point to be who they are at that point and I give them the opportunity to make different decisions. And someone at the end of Wind and Truth made the opposite decision. It's not magical where I'm like "oh the character is alive", no, it's just that who I wrote them to be and how the themes of the plot progressed I realized that at that point they can't make this decision. And so I rewrote their part and revised it to have the opposite decision get made. Once Wind and Truth is out I can tell you what that is. But you will have to read it and see if you can guess who, in the outline, was making a very different decision."

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/538/#e16658

[therunner he/him]

1 hour ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

I feel like Honor was always about the intent behind the oaths, never just the oaths themselves 

More importantly, the Retcon is that in the first four books, we learned that Honor was about the intent of the oath most of the time, until near the death of Tanavast and the recreance, where Tanavast started raving about broken oaths. We know the radiants had talked to honor because stormfather said that Honor at this time told them that their war was not justified (humans were invaders). A radiant even theorizes that Honor was changing.

That was the external perception of Honor, because Tanavast cared about the intent behind the Oaths, but the Shard itself never did.

It is mentioned that shortly before dying Honor cared less about intent and spirit of the Oath, and more about Oath itself, which we now know was Tanavast trying to placate the power that was increasingly unhappy with him. Heralds breaking their Oaths, seeing Radiants also break their Oath, over time it wore on the power (we even see parts of this in Stormfather, whose perspective is very against humans because they break oaths...now we know exactly why).

So I don't think this was a retcon in any way, previously we only had external perception of Honor as controlled by Tanavast, and now we saw the Tanavast perception of the power directly.

1 hour ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

There is a direct line that states that the shard Honor doesn't care about self improvement. Really???? I feel like this is blatantly not true in the first 4 books. Evidence:

Surgebinding is Invested Art of Honor+Cultivation, the Bond and Oaths are of Honor, but the progression is of Cultivation.
Basically, Radiants can be more and better than just Honor, because they have that added context making allowance for growth. All spren are also mix of Honor and Cultivation, granting them that ability.

Dalinar hopes that with time, Honor can learn to be more refined in its Intent, by observing example of peoples of Roshar. (Personally, I think Adolin is probably the best candidate for what refined Honor could be, with shift from rigid Oaths to Promises).

1 hour ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

It doesn't look like he was interacting at all with the Radiants to rave at them.

How did that Radiant know that Honor was changing at all? 

Why does stormfather say that that Honor told the radiants their war wasn't justified. When did Tanavast ever speak of the Dawnshards at all?

The raving could be before and after Recreance, he did start talking to Melishi some time before it happened. The chapters are a quick summary of years to hundred of years of events (one paragraph effectively describes Tanavast observing manking for hundreds of years, or early he forgot himself on Ashyn for nearly a century, but it was described in few sentences).

So Radiants could certainly have context to see Honor is changing.

On the war not being justified, he told them that sometime after he started talking to Melishi, and before Recreance. When Skybreakers leave the tower in one of the flashbacks, they do mention that they know they are the true voidbringers, I think.

Tanavast likely mentioned Dawnshards as part of the vision he sent to Radiants.

 

[KaladinWorldsinger]

1 hour ago, Soccorro said:

I posted this in megathread already, I think BS completely rewrote the end of Dalinar/Honor/Odium plot because old vision of Honor didn't fit in "progressed themes of the plot" anymore + some fan pandering since a lot of people complained about Dalinar being a bad person that needs to die, so BS decided to get rid of problematic character

The wierd thing is, Dalinar giving up power has been foreshadowed since atleast book 2, where Amaram criticizes Dal by saying

"At some point, you will have to give away power and let it stay given Dalinar" and Dal gets ashamed cuz it's true.

And Brandon did say that Dalinar was written to embody the best and worst of both Honor and Odium

We know that Taravangian becoming Odium was a book 4 decision 

Which makes me wonder if the original ending was Dalinar becoming Retribution, and realising that this was a bad idea, so chooses to give up that power.

Essentially Democratizing access to investiture. But who knows?

40 minutes ago, therunner said:

That was the external perception of Honor, because Tanavast cared about the intent behind the Oaths, but the Shard itself never did.

Then why does the Honorspren vs Highspren debate exist? Why are the Honorspren themed around protection over the law? Why aren't the Skybreaker spren called Honorspren if they are indeed closer to Honor?

Even Highspren realise the law isn't everything, which lets Skybreakers choose to become the law at the 5th ideal.

If Tanavast was so far from the intent of his shard, how was he not immediately booted out when Tanavast accepted oaths like the Windrunner's 4th ideal(which would just look like a contradiction to Honor the shard)

40 minutes ago, therunner said:

All spren are also mix of Honor and Cultivation, granting them that ability.

Honorspren are explicitly called out to be almost entirely of Honor, which means that Highspren are more mixed with Cultivation.

Which I think proves my point that Honor the shard used to be more about the intent than the oath itself

40 minutes ago, therunner said:

Basically, Radiants can be more and better than just Honor, because they have that added context making allowance for growth

It is still Tanavast accepting the oaths of Windrunners, Skybreakers, Bondsmiths, Willshapers and maybe more. The power would have rebelled at the concept of self improvement  every single time for every radiant. That sounds very messy

Edited December 16, 2024 by KaladinWorldsinger

[therunner he/him]

38 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Then why does the Honorspren vs Highspren debate exist? Why are the Honorspren themed around protection over the law? Why aren't the Skybreaker spren called Honorspren if they are indeed closer to Honor?

Because they have different takes on what Honor actually is? They are different cultures with different perspectives.

Not sure what it has to do with Honor itself.

Quote

If Tanavast was so far from the intent of his shard, how was he not immediately booted out when Tanavast accepted oaths like the Windrunner's 4th ideal(which would just look like a contradiction to Honor the shard)

Accepting that someone has made an Oath is not a contradiction.

The Power hates that Tanavast is breaking Oaths and/or bending them. It dislikes that humans do it to, but the primary problem is Tanavast doing it.

Quote

Honorspren are explicitly called out to be almost entirely of Honor, which means that Highspren are more mixed with Cultivation.

Which I think proves my point that Honor the shard used to be more about the intent than the oath itself

Why would it prove that?

Honorspren are rather varied in behaviors, compare Syl vs Notum vs Council in Lasting Integrity, they are people not a Shard. We see that spren can grow and change, something power of Honor cannot do, until very recently.

Literally entirety of the WaT goes against Honor being about intent of Oaths, we see it being about Oaths themselves. And I'll note again, this is the first time we actually see the Shard directly, everything else were second and third hand accounts at best, and filtered through Tanavast controlling the Shard.

There is zero direct evidence power of the Shard ever had the nuance to care about intent of the Oath, and not merely the Oath itself, and a lot of direct evidence that Shard actually never cared about it (see literally all of Tavanast flashbacks).

Quote

It is still Tanavast accepting the oaths of Windrunners, Skybreakers, Bondsmiths, Willshapers and maybe more. The power would have rebelled at the concept of self improvement  every single time for every radiant. That sounds very messy

Power likes Oaths, Raidants swears Oaths = Happy Power.

Plus we don't know how exactly the Oath system works, it is entirely possible that latter Oaths supersede previous ones in such a way Honor is mostly satisfied (i.e. Bondsmith shenanigans).

Power not being about self-improvement does not mean power dislikes self-improvement, it simply does not care about it, because self-improvement alone has nothing to do with Oaths.

Edited December 16, 2024 by therunner

[KaladinWorldsinger]

48 minutes ago, therunner said:

Why would it prove that?

Honorspren are called out to be made mostly of Honor.

They care more about the intent of an oath than the oath.

Hence, Honor the shard cares more about the intent of an oath.

Other Reasons:

Highspren, who care more about the oath, are not called "Honorspren" and are not "mostly made of Honor". 

Honorspren choose people who care more about protection(intent) than the law(oaths)

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Literally entirety of the WaT goes against Honor being about intent of Oaths

 

1 hour ago, therunner said:

see literally all of Tavanast flashbacks).

Exactly why I am calling it a Retcon

 

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Power likes Oaths, Raidants swears Oaths = Happy Power.

Plus we don't know how exactly the Oath system works, it is entirely possible that latter Oaths supersede previous ones in such a way Honor is mostly satisfied (i.e. Bondsmith shenanigans).

If self improvement as a concept is foreign to Honor, then there is no Higher oath. "I will protect those who can't protect themselves" and "I accept that I can't protect everyon" can't coexist.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

The Power hates that Tanavast is breaking Oaths and/or bending them. It dislikes that humans do it to, but the primary problem is Tanavast doing it.

Then it would also hate Tanavast for accepting oaths that Honor would not like(Windrunner 4th ideal, Skybreaker 5th ideal for example). If he accepts for thousands of Radiants over generations and millennia, then the power would have a million offences against Tanavast, and Tan would have lost his shard early.

[a Faceless Immortal he/him]

The Honorspren are influenced by people's perceptions of Honor and what it means to be honourable (and are also sentient; they aren't confined to what the Shard wants), and the Ideals were made by Ishar. I believe that the Highspren claim that they are closer to Honor than the Honorspren, and it's a source of their rivalry.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

16 minutes ago, a Faceless Immortal said:

The Honorspren are influenced by people's perceptions of Honor and what it means to be honourable (and are also sentient; they aren't confined to what the Shard wants), and the Ideals were made by Ishar. I believe that the Highspren claim that they are closer to Honor than the Honorspren, and it's a source of their rivalry.

If that was the case then it would have been fine to say that all spren were a mix of Honor and Cultivation. By specifically pointing out that Honorspren were"made mostly of Honor", Brandon is saying something. 

Honorspren still chose their ideals that they liked, not Ishar. Honorspren care about protection over the law, that is not something that Ishar thrust upon them.

 

[alder24]

4 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Honorspren are called out to be made mostly of Honor.

They care more about the intent of an oath than the oath.

Hence, Honor the shard cares more about the intent of an oath.

Other Reasons:

Highspren, who care more about the oath, are not called "Honorspren" and are not "mostly made of Honor". 

Honorspren choose people who care more about protection(intent) than the law(oaths)

The intent of Splinters doesn't have to be a mirror reflection of the Shardic intent - spren can and do have their own Intents. Spren are also autonomous - they are people, with their own mind and their own interpretation, they are separate from a Shard. They can change and act dishonorable (Sekier), they can be even evil as nothing prevents them from being evil. Just because they are made mostly out of Honor, doesn't mean they have to have the same intent as Honor. Spren are also investiture that came alive, which makes them susceptible to perception of other people.

This discussion between Highspren and Honorspren is kind of pointless because there is no ultimate truth there. It's more philosophical in nature. Those two groups of spren disagree on the interpretation of what Honor is and now we know that even Tanavest and the power disagree on this as well. 

Spoiler

Josh

Do Splinters have their own Intent, in addition to the Shards'?

Brandon Sanderson

Splinters often have their own intent.

West Jordan signing (Aug. 4, 2011)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

It was mentioned that there are 16 gods in your Cosmere.

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on your definition of god.

Questioner

Shards. Are the ten orders of the Knight Radiants related to specific gods? Because Honor, child of Honor-Kaladin

Brandon Sanderson

So all the magic on Roshar, all the surgebinding on Roshar, is going to have its roots in Honor and Cultivation. Um... There is some Odium influence too, but that’s mostly voidbinding, which is the map in the back of the first book.

Questioner

I was wondering how much-

Brandon Sanderson

But, but even the powers, it’s, it’s really this sort of thing. What’s going in Stormlight is that people are accessing fundamental forces of creation and laws of the universe. They’re accessing them through the filter of Cultivation and Honor. So, that’s not to say, on another world you couldn’t have someone influence gravity. Honor doesn’t belong to gravity. But bonds, and how to deal with bonds, and things like this, is an Honor thing. So the way Honor accesses gravity is, you make a bond between yourself and either a thing or a direction or things like that and you go. So it’s filtered through Honor’s visual, and some of the magics lean more Honor and some them lean more Cultivation, as you can obviously see, in the way that they take place.

Questioner

The question kind of rooted because, Wyndle in the short story is always saying that he’s a cultivationspren, he doesn’t like [...]. I kind of got the idea that each order had a different Shard.

Brandon Sanderson

That is a good thing to think, but that is not how it is. Some of them self-identify more in certain ways. Syl is an honorspren, that’s what they call a honorspren, they self-identify as the closest to Honor. Is that true? Well, I don’t know. For instance, you might talk to different spren, who are like, no, highspren are like “We’re the ones most like Honor. We are the ones that keep oaths the best. Those honorspren will let their people break their oaths if they think it’s for a good cause. That’s not Honor-like.” There would be disagreement.

Questioner

Are you saying that the spren’s view of themself influences how they work?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh yeah, and humans’ view of them because spren are pieces of Investiture who have gained sapience, or sentience for the smaller spren, through human perception of those forces. For instance, whether or not Kaladin is keeping an oath is up to what Syl and Kaladin think is keeping that oath. It is not related to capital-T Truth, what is actually keeping the oath. Two windrunners can disagree on whether an oath has been kept or not.

Boskone 54 (Feb. 18, 2017)

 

4 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Exactly why I am calling it a Retcon

Not really. OB ch 56:

Quote

“Honor cared only for bonds. Not the meaning of bonds and oaths, merely that they were kept."

EDIT:

Even the Stormfather shares his view. OB ch 4:

Quote

I respect all oaths, the Stormfather responded.
“What about foolish oaths? Made in haste, or in ignorance?”
There are no foolish oaths. All are the mark of men and true spren over beasts and subspren. The mark of intelligence, free will, and choice.

 

8 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

So then why did she react with "disgust and revulsion" in his death? Where did he actually go wrong? We know he didn't intend to lobotomize the Singers.

Just because he didn't mean it doesn't absolve him from blame. He caused all of this because he did not listen to Kor when she told him not to engage with Rayse. His action led to a genocide of every Singer on Roshar, which also hurt every spren on Roshar and everything that belong to Roshar. Her position was very clear and reasonable. Tanavest himself agreed with her and Honor's power - he knew he did something terrible. WaT ch 124:

Quote

AND … THE BEING WHO HAD BEEN TANNER …
AGREED.

 

8 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

So every Knight Radiant ever (except Skybreakers) decided to give up their powers just because of a vague vision? Every single one? No one said the reason out loud? Why? Because seeing the future is forbidden?

Add to this all the disagreements they had, the abandoning of the Tower, lobotomizing the native species of Singers and the vision all of they got directly from Honor, which told them they will destroy Roshar (not might). All of them felt the tragedy of Mishram imprisonment, the Rhythms of Roshar stopped for a few painful moments, they all knew they'd made a terrible mistake. WaT ch 87:

Quote

In that instant, something ripped within the world itself. Roshar’s rhythms and tones froze. Like a heart suddenly stopped. Three terrible seconds.

 

8 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Why does stormfather say that that Honor told the radiants their war wasn't justified. When did Tanavast ever speak of the Dawnshards at all?

Here WaT ch 87:

Quote

A vision. Injected directly into Dalinar’s mind. Of Radiants burning Roshar, of the sky on fire, of people dying and withering to dust. Of Garith himself, glowing with power, leaving thousands—human and singer alike—dead. Navani gasped—and the Windrunners cried out in pain. Even Melishi and the Radiants who had come with him howled.
They all saw it. Every Radiant on Roshar. What could be. A reminder that their powers could utterly lay waste to an entire world. It had happened before.
“You,” Honor said, “are destruction incarnate. You are as Dawnshards. You will soon become Surges unbounded, as I cannot watch you any longer. The Radiants will end this planet.”
His words thundered through Dalinar’s heart, and he finally understood the Recreance. All these years, and now he understood. Garith would walk away from his oaths, as would most of the others, because what were words like those after a tragedy like this? After God abandoned you, and you saw what you believed was the future?

In my opinion it's clear why Recreance happened and it's not contradicting knowledge we had from previous books.

Edited December 16, 2024 by alder24

[Atlas333]

1 hour ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

If that was the case then it would have been fine to say that all spren were a mix of Honor and Cultivation. By specifically pointing out that Honorspren were"made mostly of Honor", Brandon is saying something. 

Honorspren still chose their ideals that they liked, not Ishar. Honorspren care about protection over the law, that is not something that Ishar thrust upon them.

Just want to throw my two cents into this discussion. When talking about forming radiant spren they say 

Quote

We decided to form ten varieties. Ten because my power loved the
symmetry. Ten, because Kor loved me, and knew this made me happy. We
started with the first seven, then one variety was born of Kor alone. In
counterpoint, and at her urging, I created one variety almost entirely on
my own. My angels of Honor.
They loved the wind, for reasons even I could not fully fathom. (ch 104)

There isn't a lot of new information here but it reinforces what we already know (7 orders are mixes of cultivation and honor, then each shard has an order "of their own" and then the final order are bondsmiths).

Now to prove my point, which is cultivation's order? If we're going off the name of the spren it should be the edgedancers because they have cultivation spren, right? But what does caring for the forgotten have to do with growth? If anything don't the elsecaller oaths align more with grown?

To me, this makes it seem like the "pure orders" aren't the pure intent of the shard but rather the intent filtered through the vessel. Cultivation itself may not care about kindness but Kor sees kindness as something worth cultivating. Similarly, Honor cares about oaths but Tanavast sees protecting people as the most honorable thing you can do.

Edited December 16, 2024 by Atlas333

[therunner he/him]

6 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Exactly why I am calling it a Retcon

New information being revealed is most certainly not a retcon. We never had perspective of Tanavast or Honor itself, only third and second hand accounts.
So even without the previous mentions alder provided, it would not be retcon, merely new information.

If we had previous direct accounts from either Tanavast or Honor (or even Cultivation) that Honor the Shard/Power cared about intent behind the Oaths, then it would be retcon. We don't, hence it isn't.

6 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

If self improvement as a concept is foreign to Honor, then there is no Higher oath. "I will protect those who can't protect themselves" and "I accept that I can't protect everyon" can't coexist.

Why not? 4th is about accepting that protecting everyone is impossible and that Windrunner will fail, second is about striving to protect those who cannot protect themselves.
There is no conflict, 4th does not stop Windrunner from trying to protect everyone, it is personal realization and admittance.

"I accept that there will be those I cannot protect!" is the Oath, nowhere does it state however that Windrunner would stop trying to protect.

Quote

Then it would also hate Tanavast for accepting oaths that Honor would not like(Windrunner 4th ideal, Skybreaker 5th ideal for example). If he accepts for thousands of Radiants over generations and millennia,

There are no oaths Honor would not like, Honor is literally just about oaths. It does not judge the oath just that it exist. See the about quote from Stormfather.

Quote

then the power would have a million offences against Tanavast, and Tan would have lost his shard early.

Radiant breaking Oath is not Tanavast's offence, so no he would not lose Shard early.

The Power quite explicitly is angry with Tanavast for breaking Oaths Tavanast made. Separately it also generally dislikes people breaking Oaths, hence its unwillingess to be picked up.

Edited December 16, 2024 by therunner

[Sophrosyne He/any]

Piping in to mention, that it's shown pretty often that people can revise their oaths with eachother and it not be an issue with the power, see the direct conflict clause.

 

11 hours ago, Atlas333 said:

There isn't a lot of new information here but it reinforces what we already know (7 orders are mixes of cultivation and honor, then each shard has an order "of their own" and then the final order are bondsmiths).

Now to prove my point, which is cultivation's order? If we're going off the name of the spren it should be the edgedancers because they have cultivation spren, right? But what does caring for the forgotten have to do with growth? If anything don't the elsecaller oaths align more with grown?

To me, this makes it seem like the "pure orders" aren't the pure intent of the shard but rather the intent filtered through the vessel. Cultivation itself may not care about kindness but Kor sees kindness as something worth cultivating. Similarly, Honor cares about oaths but Tanavast sees protecting people as the most honorable thing you can do.

I'm not sure I follow you here Atlas. are you saying the "pure orders" (Edgedancers and Windrunners?) are aligned with Kor and Tanner instead of Cultivation and Honor?

[JPGU]

12 hours ago, Atlas333 said:

To me, this makes it seem like the "pure orders" aren't the pure intent of the shard but rather the intent filtered through the vessel. Cultivation itself may not care about kindness but Kor sees kindness as something worth cultivating. Similarly, Honor cares about oaths but Tanavast sees protecting people as the most honorable thing you can do.

Most of the things I think have already been said, but to add my two cents I want to say that I totally agree with this, the honorspren are not formed directly from the intention of the shard but are shaped more by the perception of Tanavast, even the youngest honorspren (and the only ones we have seen alive and have as an example of their behavior) were created by the stormfather not by honor.

[Atlas333]

11 hours ago, Sophrosyne said:

I'm not sure I follow you here Atlas. are you saying the "pure orders" (Edgedancers and Windrunners?) are aligned with Kor and Tanner instead of Cultivation and Honor?

Yep. That's the only way the "pure orders" make sense to me. If we're going off of oaths/ideals skybreakers and elsecallers make more sense as the pure order of honor and cultivation respectively. But I think we can all agree that isn't the case of elsecallers (they don't even get regrowth) meaning that the "pure order" is recognizable by the spren, not the oaths/ideals. Then it stands to reason that the vessels are why those orders are the "pure orders" rather than the ones closer to the shard's intent.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

I had extra questions so I am necroing my post.

When Lopen says his third ideal, he did it completely accidentally and Stormfather accepted them anyway. Ok, maybe Radiant oaths have some concept of Self improvement because of Cultivation, but Stormfather shouldn't really. But he chooses to accept them anyway. Same with Eshonai. Eshonai wasn't even trying to become Radiant, but Stormfather saw her Intent and made her a Radiant.

Even more damning example I feel: Why didn't Gavilar's words matter? He was saying the right things, even though he didn't mean them. But if Honor the shard didn't care about intent much, then Gavilar would have been totally fine with Stormfather right?

It feels like a Huge Retcon in the story to me still.

[Sophrosyne He/any]

I think you're making false comparisons here. The shard Honor cares only about the oaths. This is new information. but Radiant oaths are Honor's power. They're a system set up by Tanner and the True spren. The system makes it so the Nahel bond is super charged by oaths. the whole, having to be ready and an external force accepting the words are a sign of this.

As for Why Gavilar's words didn't work. I've no clue but it's important to note that just because the Stromfather is of honor doesn't mean he has the same rules or thought process. 

[alder24]

2 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

I had extra questions so I am necroing my post.

When Lopen says his third ideal, he did it completely accidentally and Stormfather accepted them anyway. Ok, maybe Radiant oaths have some concept of Self improvement because of Cultivation, but Stormfather shouldn't really. But he chooses to accept them anyway. Same with Eshonai. Eshonai wasn't even trying to become Radiant, but Stormfather saw her Intent and made her a Radiant.

Even more damning example I feel: Why didn't Gavilar's words matter? He was saying the right things, even though he didn't mean them. But if Honor the shard didn't care about intent much, then Gavilar would have been totally fine with Stormfather right?

It feels like a Huge Retcon in the story to me still.

Because they are Radiants, Radiants are of both Honor and Cultivation and Ideals are the core element of the Orders. Swearing Oaths with meaning to self-improve is a necessity. The Stormfather or even Honor's opinion doesn't really matter that much, because it's a system shared with Cultivation. Syl said it so when Kaladin swore the 3rd Ideal. As long as both the spren and their knight believe in the words they had spoken (Lopen believed in them when he said them, he lived them protecting wounded from depression), they will be accepted, even if they didn't actually know what they were doing (Eshonai), or the Stormfather forbids this. WaR ch 85:

Quote

The Words, Kaladin. That was Syl’s voice. You have to speak the Words!
I FORBID THIS.
YOUR WILL MATTERS NOT! Syl shouted. YOU CANNOT HOLD ME BACK IF HE SPEAKS THE WORDS! THE WORDS, KALADIN! SAY THEM!

You said it yourself why Gavilar's words didn't matter - he had no Intent behind them. They were empty words, not Ideals, not Oaths. Gavilar was just guessing, the one time he wasn't guessing he had the Intent, but those weren't the right Words to become Radiant/Herald/Honor's champion, or whatever he was meant to be. 

Also, I think the intent and meaning are a different thing. Intent is not of Honor, it's the fundamental mechanic of Cosmere to which all are bound, Shards included. Honor doesn't care about the meaning of Oaths - it can be for good or bad, it doesn't matter to him - but the Intent to say them must be there all time as that's something else, something above Honor.

Not a contradiction. 

[KaladinWorldsinger]

5 hours ago, Sophrosyne said:

I think you're making false comparisons here. The shard Honor cares only about the oaths. This is new information. but Radiant oaths are Honor's power. They're a system set up by Tanner and the True spren. The system makes it so the Nahel bond is super charged by oaths. the whole, having to be ready and an external force accepting the words are a sign of this.

I will be honest, i didn't understand what you were saying here at all.

My point was Lopen or Eshonai never meant to make an oath, but Stormfather accepted them anyway. He only looked at their intent. Lopen especially shows that I feel, since it was sooo accidental.

 

5 hours ago, Sophrosyne said:

Accidental quote 

 

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

even if they didn't actually know what they were doing

I will say that in Eshonai's case, the framing is that SF chose to accept Eshonai's unspoken words, as an act of mercy(out of guilt, sure, but still a choice) rather than SF being forced to recognise Eshonai. Similarly, even for Lopen I feel SF wasn't forced into accepting it, rather Stormfather himself chose that moment.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

You said it yourself why Gavilar's words didn't matter - he had no Intent behind them. They were empty words, not Ideals, not Oaths

Why would that matter to Honor? Gavilar can say the words, then lose whatever he gains when it is probable that he is breaking his oath. Isn't that enough?

 

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

but the Intent to say them must be there all time as that's something else, something above Honor.

An oath is an oath. The difference between an oath and a promise is the intent. Lopen never had the intent to make an oath, he just stated his intent to change. Eshonai has no intent to make an oath, she just had an intent to fight for her freedom. 

[drunkenbotanist]

Also, it's relevant here I think that we find out that honor was about the negative emotional aspects...such as the pride of not breaking an oath.

 

The Honor shard intent wasn't just that it was about oaths free of the actual content of the oath, but that honor/pride wrapped up into it as well 

 

"The power accepted those definitions of it. It was the power of oaths and the pride that men bore at being thought of as men of oaths. As Dalinar had witnessed: thousands of years of warfare to prove who was right, and who deserved this land. The power didn’t care about self-improvement, but it cared deeply about being right." -chapter 142

 

And this I think was well earned from the text. Adolin's whole arc fit into this. Szeth also breaks his bond to save his spren's life. The honorspren exemplify this misplaced pride very well during RoW. So many of them cannot accept the Recreance.

 

We knew that Maya and the recreance knights broke their bonds on purpose, to do something good. The Honor intent being actually potentially harmful wasn't a retcon, it was the direct implication of the plot twist of the Recreance that we had four books to build up to.

 

Edited December 22, 2024 by drunkenbotanist

[KaladinWorldsinger]

13 minutes ago, drunkenbotanist said:

Also, it's relevant here I think that we find out that honor was about the negative emotional aspects...such as the pride of not breaking an oath.

 

The Honor shard intent wasn't just that it was about oaths free of the actual content of the oath, but that honor/pride wrapped up into it as well 

 

"The power accepted those definitions of it. It was the power of oaths and the pride that men bore at being thought of as men of oaths. As Dalinar had witnessed: thousands of years of warfare to prove who was right, and who deserved this land. The power didn’t care about self-improvement, but it cared deeply about being right." -chapter 142

 

And this I think was well earned from the text. Adolin's whole arc fit into this. Szeth also breaks his bond to save his spren's life. The honorspren exemplify this misplaced pride very well during RoW. So many of them cannot accept the Recreance.

 

We knew that Maya and the recreance knights broke their bonds on purpose, to do something good. The Honor intent being actually potentially harmful wasn't a retcon, it was the direct implication of the plot twist of the Recreance that we had four books to build up to.

This fits very Thematically into the themes of Tormlight Archive and I don't disagree with any of it.

What I do think is that the shard of Honor also had the positive aspects of caring about the intent of an oath too. 

[Sophrosyne He/any]

What I was saying before is that Honor's power means very little when discussing Radiant oaths.

15 hours ago, Sophrosyne said:

but Radiant oaths [aren't] Honor's power. They're a system set up by Tanner and the True spren.

so what the power wants is irrelevant to the system that was made. Preservations Intent means nothing to an Allomancer right?

 

So I guess my question is: Why is Honor's intent important to this conversation but Not Cultivations? Or the many fragments of gods running around?

 

 

[Kitch]

Personally my take on the Honor twist was that Tanavast/Tanner was a weak vessel and person. He was constantly striving to be something greater, obsessed with being a God, and hated to be reminded that he came from common origins.  We had this image of The Almighty as this all knowing individual that had a plan for everything and was honorable above all else and was betrayed by Rayse

 

When in actuality, it seems like Tanner was bumbling from 1 situation to another without a grander plan. He wanted to be worshipped, but didn't want to put in the effort....the disappearing for decades at a time. He blamed Rayse for everything, but Tanner interfered first with Rayses planet. He seemed dependent on Kor....it almost seemed like a codependent relationship...and didn't offer much to the relationship, constantly putting her in this grander light.

If anything, I see Tanavast as a villain here.  He was a mess. I wouldn't be surprised if we find out he was one of the weaker individuals once we get the Shattering story. 

[KaladinWorldsinger]

7 hours ago, Sophrosyne said:

What I was saying before is that Honor's power means very little when discussing Radiant oaths.

I disagree because it is the stormfather and Honor accepting these oaths. Then, I think the intent of the Shard does matter. As I said before, I don't think SF is mindlessly forced to accept every oath a Radiant and his spren decide to make. The SF has to look at the intent and accept them.

 

7 hours ago, Sophrosyne said:

So I guess my question is: Why is Honor's intent important to this conversation but Not Cultivations

I am only talking about Honor's intent because SF accepts radiant Oaths(like Honor before him) and now I feel Honor the shard's intent has been retconned.

 

[therunner he/him]

47 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

I disagree because it is the stormfather and Honor accepting these oaths. Then, I think the intent of the Shard does matter. As I said before, I don't think SF is mindlessly forced to accept every oath a Radiant and his spren decide to make. The SF has to look at the intent and accept them.

If the Intent is there he must accept them.

Quote

I am only talking about Honor's intent because SF accepts radiant Oaths(like Honor before him) and now I feel Honor the shard's intent has been retconned.

Cultivation accepts Oaths from e.g. Willshapers, so it isn't just on Honor and his perception.

[Sophrosyne He/any]

1 hour ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

I disagree because it is the stormfather and Honor accepting these oaths. Then, I think the intent of the Shard does matter. As I said before, I don't think SF is mindlessly forced to accept every oath a Radiant and his spren decide to make. The SF has to look at the intent and accept them.

If your point is simply that someone holding Honor's power has always accepted the words therefore Honor's Intent matters, The Wind, Dalanar, The Sibling and Cultivation have all accepted words on various occasions, so that's moot.

I'm really not trying to be argumentative for the sake of it I'm just not sure what the root of this is. So I'm having trouble doing much more then, trying, to debunk the last thing you said. What about Radiant bonds makes it so that Honor's intent is a factor? and why is Cultivations intent, seemingly, not one?

I mean look at sand mastery. What does that have to do with Autonomy?