Sigzil and Oaths

[therunner he/him]

So, in WAT Sigzil breaks his bond to his Honorspren at a point where his 3rd Oath Windrunner.
He later accepts Dawnshard, and we see him meet Aux at the end.

However, in TSM Sigzil recovers plate formed from both Windspren and Gravitation spren, mix of both his Orders.
How can this be, if he never reached 4th Oath as Windrunner?

[timeimp]

This has been bugging me since finishing the book. 

I think it’s an error.

Won’t know for sure until Sig shows up again, or in a WoB. 

[Display-Names-Are-Stupid]

Also if he was off Roshar when he swore his Plate oaths, how did the Spren reach him? I thought there was a WoB that you could take them with you if you swore on Roshar, but if you swore with none of them there they would be unable to form. Maybe this is changed with the end of SA5 being a protection of the Spren. 

[Sheepyshoe]

I assume one of four things.

1- It was a mistake/oversight by Brandon. 

2- Weird progression occurs when you break a bond then reforge a new one (similar to Shallan) which might result in both being sworn. 

3- Now that spren can leave Roshar (it’s mentioned some Windspren are with the Iriali caravan), maybe the armour is formed by whichever are nearby. 

4- He may have been close to the 4th ideal so Windspren may have already started following him, and even though he abandoned his Windrunner oaths, his Windspren may not have abandoned him. 
 

None of these are overly fleshed out theories, but best I can speculate. 

[alder24]

3 hours ago, therunner said:

So, in WAT Sigzil breaks his bond to his Honorspren at a point where his 3rd Oath Windrunner.
He later accepts Dawnshard, and we see him meet Aux at the end.

However, in TSM Sigzil recovers plate formed from both Windspren and Gravitation spren, mix of both his Orders.
How can this be, if he never reached 4th Oath as Windrunner?

This baffles me too. I think it must be an error.

[GamerMilo]

I read Sigzil's arc in WaT as a sped-up version of Kaladin's development, eventually leading to him swearing the 4th Ideal.

From this, we can assume that Sig was already close to the wow-almost-there point in Ideals that Kal was during RoW (and protected him from the power putting all other radiants to sleep). 

WaT basically confirmed that the Ideals aren't a rigid five-step process, with Syl noticing a small step in Kaladin's development.

In addition, Radiants just seem to be really liked by their armorspren, even way earlier than searing the 4th. Kaladin is surrounded by windspren when flying in WoR, Shallan draws a bunch of creationspren often etc.

So what I think, is that Sig was already the 'favorite Radiant ever' of a growing portion of windspren. Maybe he even stayed that way, as he continued to encompass the Windrunner ideals (at least at times). The 4th, then, doesn't amount to a Radiant creating a bunch of armorspren, but them gaining the ability to form Plate from the armorspren that decide to follow them.

[therunner he/him]

10 hours ago, alder24 said:

This baffles me too. I think it must be an error.

Glad I am not the only one. It being just an error would be disappointing.

10 hours ago, GamerMilo said:

I read Sigzil's arc in WaT as a sped-up version of Kaladin's development, eventually leading to him swearing the 4th Ideal.

From this, we can assume that Sig was already close to the wow-almost-there point in Ideals that Kal was during RoW (and protected him from the power putting all other radiants to sleep). 

WaT basically confirmed that the Ideals aren't a rigid five-step process, with Syl noticing a small step in Kaladin's development.

In addition, Radiants just seem to be really liked by their armorspren, even way earlier than searing the 4th. Kaladin is surrounded by windspren when flying in WoR, Shallan draws a bunch of creationspren often etc.

So what I think, is that Sig was already the 'favorite Radiant ever' of a growing portion of windspren. Maybe he even stayed that way, as he continued to encompass the Windrunner ideals (at least at times). The 4th, then, doesn't amount to a Radiant creating a bunch of armorspren, but them gaining the ability to form Plate from the armorspren that decide to follow them.

This sounds plausible. Plus we know now that spren can travel off-world, so some windspren could follow him, and when he 'revives' his Oaths, windspren join in.

He is also a former Exist Dawnshard, so pulling things more into Existence when they shouldn't could also help.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

12 hours ago, Sheepyshoe said:

Weird progression occurs when you break a bond then reforge a new one (similar to Shallan) which might result in both being sworn. 

 

Maybe when Bonding Aux, Sigzil chooses to follow the Windrunner code, which creates very wierd scenarios.

Because in TSM, Sigzil still acts more like a Windrunner than a Skybreaker anyway

[therunner he/him]

5 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Maybe when Bonding Aux, Sigzil chooses to follow the Windrunner code, which creates very wierd scenarios.

Because in TSM, Sigzil still acts more like a Windrunner than a Skybreaker anyway

That is a really good idea, and in WaT Aux does seem like he would be in support of that, with how he seems to grow to admire Kaladin, and envies his and Syl's relationship.

[colibris79]

Thanks for this thread. It was bugging me as well. 

In the Coppermind it also mentions that Sigzil is a Fourth ideal Windrunner (from his bond with Vienta). Does that info comes strictly from TSM? or from somewhere else? Is there any way that in WaT he swears his Fourth ideal and we haven't realized? 

Crazy idea: what if by breaking his oath in order to save Vienta was his ideal? Kind of "I will do whatever is in my hand to protect someone I love, including breaking my oaths" (quite far fetched, I know, but I'd find it very strange for it to be a mistake since Brandon has written a full book about Sigzil and I guess he knows him very very well) 

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

57 minutes ago, colibris79 said:

In the Coppermind it also mentions that Sigzil is a Fourth ideal Windrunner (from his bond with Vienta). Does that info comes strictly from TSM? or from somewhere else? Is there any way that in WaT he swears his Fourth ideal and we haven't realized? 

It's a bit murky, but I don't believe that he ever said he reached the Fourth Windrunner Ideal in TSM, just that that he had some Platespren from his Skybreaker Oaths and some from his Windrunner ones.

He never explicitly swore his Fourth Windrunner Oath in Wind and Truth, but Platespren follow their Radiants even before they swear the Fourth Ideal, and I don't believe it's a coincidence that a bunch of Windspren just happen to be following the Iriali. They're most likely following Sigzil.

[colibris79]

20 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

He never explicitly swore his Fourth Windrunner Oath in Wind and Truth, but Platespren follow their Radiants even before they swear the Fourth Ideal, and I don't believe it's a coincidence that a bunch of Windspren just happen to be following the Iriali. They're most likely following Sigzil.

That makes sense

In TSM it says somewhere that he wore plate with both of his sprens or something like that? I think the Coppermind may have taken it from there? (I've just read it once so may not remember it correctly)

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

25 minutes ago, colibris79 said:

That makes sense

In TSM it says somewhere that he wore plate with both of his sprens or something like that? I think the Coppermind may have taken it from there? (I've just read it once so may not remember it correctly)

I think it's intentionally vague, in fact I have a theory.

I think it's possible that if you break your Bond to your Radiant Spren, it won't completely break your Bond to your Platespren.

Things have been happening that can't be fully explained yet, the Unoathed, Szeth apparently 'Skipping' an Oath, Adolin healing Maya even before BAM was freed.

I think that it may be possible that, due the extenuating circumstances that have occured, his Windrunner Platespren have chosen to keep following him despite Sigzil breaking his Oaths, which in and of itself was to save his Spren's life, which could be a bit of an interesting paradox in his Oaths, as he broke his Oaths to save people in order to save someone.

Edited December 30, 2024 by JustQuestin2004

[Treamayne]

On 12/15/2024 at 12:49 PM, therunner said:

So, in WAT Sigzil breaks his bond to his Honorspren at a point where his 3rd Oath Windrunner.
He later accepts Dawnshard, and we see him meet Aux at the end.

However, in TSM Sigzil recovers plate formed from both Windspren and Gravitation spren, mix of both his Orders.
How can this be, if he never reached 4th Oath as Windrunner?

Copied from the other thread, same topic. My current theory:

On 12/25/2024 at 8:26 AM, Treamayne said:

So, if we assume that it is not an error (seems like the kind of thing Dragonsteel would catch and correct if the contradiction were this big), then what does that tell us?

• We see in WaT that Kaladin's Plate Spren follow him around - so forming plate does not come from the ambient spren of the correct type, but from those that a Radiant has gathered to them over the course of their Oaths.
• We see in Oathbringer that Kaladin had already gathered Windspren (that would eventually form his plate), and even had some measure of control with them even before the Fourth Oath
  • Kaladin directed the Windspren to form a Windbreak at Revolar to protect the humans running for the Stormshelter
  • Kaladin's Platespren even slightly manifested in Shadesmar, while they travelled with Notum's ship - because they were following his Shadesmar journey

Based on this, I would suspect that Sig had already found a gathering of Windpren following him - he's had the Third Oath for a while. So, it could be that by the time he reaches Fouth Ideal with Aux, his plate will become a combination of the Windspren already following his radiance, and the GravitationSpren he will eventually attract as he progresses his Skybreaker Oaths. Since a change in Radiant Order is so rare (if it ever happened before Sigzil), this could just be an uncommon interaction (resonance?) of Sigzil's Surge of Gravitation interacting with Adhesion from his time as a Windrunner, and Division when he becomes a Skybreaker-in-fact - and Brandon wanted us to see this interaction at least once.

Also, please note that Aux mentions Windspren have joined the same caravan as Sigzil . . .