Modern Language?

[Captain Coffee]

So, in the reviews that are out, one criticism I see a lot of is that Brandon is using too much modern language. But, no one is giving examples. The only example that sticks out to me is the use of the word therapist, which seemed like a great way of showing how Hoid influences the development of cultures and languages (also just a good joke). Are there others I missed?

 

Either way, I don't think the use of modern language would be an issue. It just doesn't seem like there are a lot of facts to even support the claim. Unless I've forgotten stuff.

[Szeth Pancakes he/they]

There's nothing that stood out to me, but that might be because I come from the world of YA fantasy, in which modern language is much more normalized.

[Hayama]

I also didn't see it, but then again I'm not one to care about the prose argument, either.

[Aredor]

There's the classic example of "Syl, however, would Syl," for one. 

I'm not typically one to complain about prose, but my main complaint is with the sentences being interspersed with "honestly" and "literally," even when the statement is supposed to be taken seriously.

[Silverblade5 he/him]

It's mostly people in recovery from Concord and Dragon Age being on hair-triggers for the things they thought were wrong there. I personally thought it was fine.

[frozndevl]

The use of "data" and "troubleshooting" stood out to me and not in a good way.

Edited December 15, 2024 by frozndevl

[TheOtherDave]

The sudden (aside from once or twice in RoW) switch to modern swearing for some characters kinda takes me out of it.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

The Cosmere is entering its modern age. Elantris II and Hoid's origin stories aside the books from now on will have tech levels of the second half of the 20th century at least (or be about cultures in significant contact with cultures that have it).

[Forged Herald]

I didn't write all the examples down, but there were some that stood out:

Aladin calling May his "ex" is the one that jarred me the most. From courting to dating to "ex".

Obviously the modern swearing (even if it's explained in book) interjections like a f*cking Herald using the word "basically" in the middle of a sentence. I don't care about modern language in characters like Wayne or Hoid, but when characters change the way they speak (like Szeth's unique way of talking) it's a great loss.

Also it's not just modern language. I don't remember when, but there was a really obvious latin word that also stood out to me like a sore thumb.

[eriwancoselyn]

To me, it's a fair issue to raise.

Way of kings sets the tone of the story as vaguely medievalist. I'm not going to say it was hard medievalist like GoT but most of the characters used a formal register. But, as time has gone on, the register has become more and more informal with each passing book.

The issue people see in this is that, first off, none of the characters would be changing the way they talk in such a short amount of time. Second off, it's starting to get to the point where it's a tone killer. It's just harder to take things seriously when characters use words like kinda and sorta.

Shallan is a good example of this change. 

Book 1:

Quote

 "When reading these books, scholarship and ignorance feel much alike to me." Shallan said. "Ignorance may reside in a man hiding from intelligence, but scholarship can seem ignorance hidden behind intelligence." 

  "And what of intelligence without ignorance? Finding truth while not dismissing the possibility of being wrong?"

  "A mythological treasure, Brightness, much like the Dawnshards or the Honorblades. Certainly worth seeking, but only with great caution."

  "Caution?" Jasnah said, frowning.

  "It would make you famous, but actually finding it would destroy us all. Proof that one can be both intelligent and accept the intelligence of those who disagree with you? Why, I should think it would undermine the scholarly world in it's entirety."

 

Book 5:

Quote

Do you often do this?” he asked.

“Sketch people?” she said, then blushed. “Yes, I kind of do it all the time. When I’m feeling like myself, at least.”

“Not simply sketching, child. Do you often draw upon Fortune? Glimpse someone’s possible selves, and pull one forth… touch, in some small way, what could have been. What might still be…” He glanced to her, and must have seen the utter confusion in her eyes, as he sighed. “Is this a skill commonly employed by Lightweavers during your time?”

“Not that I know of,” she said. “But I don’t exactly understand what you’re saying.”

He glanced toward Pattern and Testament. “Two spren. Of course… you’ve bonded two. Strange things happen when the Nahel bond is imbricated. There were rules against it once, I believe. How long have you had them both?”

“For some time,” she said, “though I didn’t know it—didn’t remember it—until recently.”

Her dialogue in this book is much more glib and modern than book one Shallan. It's lost its mediaeval flavor.

Edited December 15, 2024 by eriwancoselyn

[XaliaStormblessed she/her]

16 hours ago, Forged Herald said:

Aladin calling May his "ex" is the one that jarred me the most. From courting to dating to "ex".

Totally agree with this one. It took me right out haha.

[Subvisual Haze]

So many frequently talk like Marvel characters or highly updooted Reddit posters.  Very quippy and unserious.  It's less the specific words (which could be attributed to "translation") than the lack of seriousness/distinct voice/worldview of the people expressing themselves.  Theoretically fantasy is supposed to be a pre-modern environment and thus inhabited by people with a worldview/voice distinct from an internet poster circa 2015-2024.  If it was just one person doing this (Wit would be ideal), then it wouldn't be quite so noticeable because they could serve as a contrast.  Instead we have Kaladin talking about being a therapist, Adolin being a slut, Shallan squeeing like a fujoshi etc.

It's weird because earlier Sanderson books didn't have this quality.  I have to wonder if its not an intentional change to cater to broader/more YA audience.

[drunkenbotanist]

"It was difficult to even speak. Kaladin wasn’t lying; he had felt this before—but whatever Ishar had done to him was worse than most of his days. It was like all of the worst days Kaladin had known distilled into 200 proof awfulness. The Horneater white of misery."

 

This completely threw me out of a really dramatic scene. If he just left out "200 proof awfulness" it would have worked. "...worst days Kaladin had known distilled. The Horneater white of misery."

 

It failed for me by failing the worldbuilding (we had a chart of all the different wines in book one, and never did it discuss proof)

 

It failed because of the tone stuff and less formal language 

 

This bit has stuck with me since the end of the book because it's a really simple fix. I feel like either it becomes impossible to edit a book this size, or less people are willing to tell him no?  Largely I didn't have a problem with the language in the book, and I don't feel like this is the harbinger of something terrible. But dang this part bothered me.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

2 hours ago, drunkenbotanist said:

It failed for me by failing the worldbuilding (we had a chart of all the different wines in book one, and never did it discuss proof)

We had that. We also had Shallan going slumming in a low class bar. There they didn't bother with dyes and just told it like it is. At the risk of repeating myself, wars cut away fluff. Compare the fashions of 1913 to the fashions of 1920. This goes further. If you had seriously proposed dadaism in 1913 you would have been taken to an asylum.

Brandon had been breaking the setup since Oathbringer. Most of what we'd been seeing of Roshar up to Words of Radiance was, to put it bluntly, a decadent culture. Half your population kept illiterate. The other half unable to use both hands fully. Wages set by law. We already saw signs of the strain. Stormwardens inventing a new script. Women using gloves and learning archery. The nihilism of Au-Nak. It took one big push and the house of cards collapsed.
Eastern Roshar was deliberately set up as in sort of a culture on the precipe of seeing what happens when a system is extended past its natural limits. Sort of 18th century Venice. Beautiful but rotten.

Britain before the war was having ideological discussions. Come the war they socialized medicine without as much as a blink of an eye and unceremoniously went to universal health care in 1946. They were not alone. Germany expanded the public health insurance scheme for blue-collar workers to almost everybody in 1941 and nobody thought of protesting or changig it back after the war. Big wars are an enormous driver of change.

[therunner he/him]

I would also add that the perception of Roshar as somehow medieval is widely off mark.

Alethi is probably culturally closest to that, but even they are making large strides in sciences (fabrials), have reasonably advanced knowledge of e.g. biology and ecology, culturally already had post-modern art, have fashion trends with catalogues/folios (which is surprisingly modern thing). They increasingly interact with other cultures (Azish and Theylen primarily) which are more 'advanced', moving them further.

Technologically, they basically lack knowledge of advanced metallurgy and firearms...because they never needed those, since they have superior options in Soulcasters, and Shards. Early rifles would be utterly pointless in a battle when Shardbearer would break their line in seconds. However, otherwise they have by early RoW, early quantum observations (from spren), indoor heating and start of modern plumbing, powered lifts prototypes, powered flight etc. And most of these had early versions back in first two books.

Basically, Roshar was never pseudo-medieval setting, they were always at least early modern with surface veneer of medieval culture due to us seeing it from cultural 'backwater' nation first.

TL;DR: Roshar was never medieval, but more like 19th century since the first book, but Alethi perspective made it seem less 'advanced'.

[ALAKA]

Kaladin being a "therapist" is actually called out in the book when he's talking to Ishar

Kaladin - "I'm his therapist",

Ishar - "what's that"

"no idea"

[Forged Herald]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

I would also add that the perception of Roshar as somehow medieval is widely off mark.

Alethi is probably culturally closest to that, but even they are making large strides in sciences (fabrials), have reasonably advanced knowledge of e.g. biology and ecology, culturally already had post-modern art, have fashion trends with catalogues/folios (which is surprisingly modern thing). They increasingly interact with other cultures (Azish and Theylen primarily) which are more 'advanced', moving them further.

Technologically, they basically lack knowledge of advanced metallurgy and firearms...because they never needed those, since they have superior options in Soulcasters, and Shards. Early rifles would be utterly pointless in a battle when Shardbearer would break their line in seconds. However, otherwise they have by early RoW, early quantum observations (from spren), indoor heating and start of modern plumbing, powered lifts prototypes, powered flight etc. And most of these had early versions back in first two books.

Basically, Roshar was never pseudo-medieval setting, they were always at least early modern with surface veneer of medieval culture due to us seeing it from cultural 'backwater' nation first.

TL;DR: Roshar was never medieval, but more like 19th century since the first book, but Alethi perspective made it seem less 'advanced'.

I agree it isn't medieval, and it never felt medieval (excepting Syl at some points). But it definitively felt classic (maybe more Three Musketeers vibe than something really medieval), like you said somewhere in 18th-19th century.
But the last book felt a lot like 21st century YA, and thats what felt really jarring to me. I get language evolves, but the change felt to brusque for just a year or two in a society without internet.

I don't think it's justified, even when Brandon tries to explain it in-book.
 

[therunner he/him]

1 minute ago, Forged Herald said:

I agree it isn't medieval, and it never felt medieval (excepting Syl at some points). But it definitively felt classic (maybe more Three Musketeers vibe than something really medieval), like you said somewhere in 18th-19th century.
But the last book felt a lot like 21st century YA, and thats what felt really jarring to me. I get language evolves, but the change felt to brusque for just a year or two in a society without internet.

I don't think it's justified, even when Brandon tries to explain it in-book.
 

While they don't have internet, they do have spanreeds, and people we follow do spend a lot of time in rather diverse groups.

But fair enough, to me it mostly didn't feel that different compared to e.g. Oathbringer, except at some moments.

[Forged Herald]

6 minutes ago, therunner said:

While they don't have internet, they do have spanreeds, and people we follow do spend a lot of time in rather diverse groups.

But fair enough, to me it mostly didn't feel that different compared to e.g. Oathbringer, except at some moments.

I thought about Spanreeds. I agree that they allow instant communication, but only for a small part of the population and only peer to peer. Also people like Kaladin or Adolin can't read, so I don't think language would advance nearly as fast as it does today (and even if it did, it feels like too great of a change anyway).

[+Oltux72 he/him]

50 minutes ago, Forged Herald said:

But the last book felt a lot like 21st century YA, and thats what felt really jarring to me. I get language evolves, but the change felt to brusque for just a year or two in a society without internet.

It would again say that you do not have language change. You have a prestige way of speaking "Alethi lighteye posh", if you will, dieing out. What you are getting is not language change but everybody switching to preexisting "street language". Something they at least understood perfectly well all the time.

[eriwancoselyn]

2 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

It would again say that you do not have language change. You have a prestige way of speaking "Alethi lighteye posh", if you will, dieing out. What you are getting is not language change but everybody switching to preexisting "street language". Something they at least understood perfectly well all the time.

but none of that's ever covered in the books tho.

[Forged Herald]

14 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

It would again say that you do not have language change. You have a prestige way of speaking "Alethi lighteye posh", if you will, dieing out. What you are getting is not language change but everybody switching to preexisting "street language". Something they at least understood perfectly well all the time.

I disagree, they don't sound like bridgemen either and bridgemen weren't precisely Alethi posh.

[+Child of Hodor]

On 12/15/2024 at 4:32 AM, eriwancoselyn said:

To me, it's a fair issue to raise.

Way of kings sets the tone of the story as vaguely medievalist. I'm not going to say it was hard medievalist like GoT but most of the characters used a formal register. But, as time has gone on, the register has become more and more informal with each passing book.

The issue people see in this is that, first off, none of the characters would be changing the way they talk in such a short amount of time. Second off, it's starting to get to the point where it's a tone killer. It's just harder to take things seriously when characters use words like kinda and sorta.

Shallan is a good example of this change. 

Book 1:

Book 5:

Her dialogue in this book is much more glib and modern than book one Shallan. It's lost its mediaeval flavor.

Quote

Do you often do this?” he asked.

“Sketch people?” she said, then blushed. “Yes, I kind of do it all the time. When I’m feeling like myself, at least.”

“Not simply sketching, child.

Shallan is super glib in every book. In fact, a ton of Brandon characters do this taking what another person is saying literally to have a glib response. It comes up so much I have a name for it "I meant a real ____"
I'm not saying it's good, but it is prevalent throughout Stormlight. 

Oathbringer:

Quote

"Were you ... thinkin' you'd fight them all on your own" Lift said. "With a book?"
...
"Do you have a weapon?" he asked.
"Nope. Can't read."
"Can't ..." Dalinar looked down at his book. "I meant a real weapon, Lift." 

Way of Kings Ch. 3

Quote

"I can see you are a woman of discriminating taste." ...
"I am," Shallan said, "I do like my meals prepared very carefully"
"I meant that you have discriminating tastes in books"
...
"you're like a morning sunrise, you are!"
"Like a sunrise? By that you mean entirely too crimson" ... "and prone to making men grouchy when they see me?"
...
"I believe you stray into sarcasm."
"Funny. I thought I'd run straight into it, screaming at the top of my lungs."

Way of Kings Ch. 29 Errorgance (ugh)

Quote

"The Assuredness Movement?" Shallan asked, holding up one of her books. "I guess I could get behind that."
"Oh?"
"Yes. Much easier to stab it in the back from that position."

Words of Radiance Ch. 1

Quote

"This is madness!"
"No, this is scholarship!"
...
"Oh they are fond of me. But I don't have your weight, Jasnah"
"I will assume that did not have implications toward my girth."

Oathbringer Ch. 21

Quote

"Shallan, being guarded isn't always about safety. It's about prestige."
"I've got plenty. Prestige is practically leaking out of my nose these days, Adolin."
"That's not what I meant."

Oathbringer Ch. 64

Quote

"And your order?"
"More food."
"I meant your order of Knights Radiant"

Edgedancer Ch. 10

Quote

"I'm not a nose," Lift said. "I was being cheeky."
"Nose, cheek. Both are on the face."
Lift rolled her eyes. "That's not what I meant either."

Words of Radiance Lift interlude:

Quote

"The Bronze palace itself." ...
"Looks like a bunch of breasts."
...
Wow. Well then, Gaw. I don't talk to myself because I'm crazy."
"No?"
"I do it because I'm awesome."
...
"It seems I performed a miracle or something."
"Good for you," Lift said. "Can I eat your dinner."

This is just me looking up particularly glib characters from memory and keyword searching the books for "I meant". 

[eriwancoselyn]

46 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

Shallan is super glib in every book. In fact, a ton of Brandon characters do this taking what another person is saying literally to have a glib response. It comes up so much I have a name for it "I meant a real ____"
I'm not saying it's good, but it is prevalent throughout Stormlight. 

Oathbringer:

Way of Kings Ch. 3

Way of Kings Ch. 29 Errorgance (ugh)

Words of Radiance Ch. 1

Oathbringer Ch. 21

Oathbringer Ch. 64

Edgedancer Ch. 10

Words of Radiance Lift interlude:

This is just me looking up particularly glib characters from memory and keyword searching the books for "I meant". 

Abolutely 100% agree that the jokes have always been there. I'd say that some of those quotes are a cut above the example from book 5. The madness/ scholarship one is at least decently witty. To me, this is something that's always been a bit of a thing in BS books. I actually enjoy the ones in Way of Kings because they usually show up in more personal or lighthearted moments to contrast the normal tone of seriousness. I'm not saying that jokes aren't allowed. But don't you think the more glib dialogue has been getting more and more prevalent in later books?

Could you go through wind and truth and find me a quote that matches the quality of my errogance quote? And, if you did, what would you do when I put up another fantastic monologue or high quality piece of dialogue? I guarantee you'll run out of examples before I do, even though WaT is 300 pages longer than WoK.

But I understand what you're trying to say. I'm happy to debate it if you think I'm wrong.

Edited December 16, 2024 by eriwancoselyn

[+Oltux72 he/him]

1 hour ago, eriwancoselyn said:

but none of that's ever covered in the books tho.

It is. It is mentioned that Alethi peasants stress words differently. Among them Kaladin's name.