Unity and "We killed you"

[Atlas333]

The ending of Oathbringer had all kinds of juicy tidbits for us to theorize about. The two biggest in my opinion was Dalinar proclaiming "I am Unity" (and Ascending briefly) and Odium's response "we killed you!"

Now with the context of WaT I want to revisit these topics and see if we can get some answers here because frankly, I don't think we're any closer to figuring out what these statements are about.

 

I was in the camp that Unity would be the name Dalinar would use after picking up Honor. As far as I'm aware that isn't what happened. So what's the point of this statement? The three options I see are: that statement was Dalinar swearing an oath similar to the 5th ideal of the skybreakers (I think this is unlikely but worth mentioning), Unity was how Dalinar viewed the shard at the time of his brief ascension (likely) and finally Unity could be a different name to Adonalsium and Dalinar somehow tapped into the original god's power.

Next up, Odium's phrase "We killed you!" doesn't really make sense if we assume he's talking about Honor because he uses "we" instead of "I." We now know that Odium killed Honor singlehandedly unless we count Cultivation refusing to help or Ba-Ado-Mishram being the victim of betrayal as being an accomplice to the killing which doesn't seem likely to me. 

 

This leads me to the conclusion that Unity has to be referring to Adonalsium in some way. That would explain why Odium uses "we" to refer to the other shards that shattered Adonalsium originally. How Dalinar accomplished this I have no idea.

Edited December 13, 2024 by Atlas333

[TheOtherDave]

Wasn’t there speculation that Odium had help killing some of the other shards? Maybe 2 of them combined into “Unity” before they died? Although, as best I can recall, Dominion and Devotion were the only ones together, and I’m not sure “Unity” is the word I’d use to describe a merger between those two.

 

Anyway, could that be the “we”?

Edited December 13, 2024 by TheOtherDave

[alder24]

One mention of "Unite them" in WaT which pick my attention was in ch 99:

Quote

Unite them.
Who he had been.
Who he was.
Who he would become.
Air warped around Dalinar. The threads of the Spiritual Realm unraveling for a moment, then snapping back together. Dalinar breathed in, then out, and when the warping stopped, he was himself.

That makes me think that Unity IS just Dalinar, but including the Dalinar he would become - the Vessel of Honor (even if that lasted for just 5 minutes). We know from the WoB that Odium and the Stormfather saw something different during the Unity moment in OB and I think they saw Honor in Dalinar. 

As for who the "we" was, from all we got in WaT it seems there were no "we." At best he meant it as the Vessel and the power. Unless everything that happened with Mishram was all planned together with Odium and she was working for Odium to make Honor break his promise to her, which I find unlikely judging from Mishram's reaction to all of this. There were no signs of Cultivation's involvement in Honor's death so that theory is out of the window now.

Spoiler

Questioner

Dalinar Ascends, right? Like, right then, there.

Brandon Sanderson

I have RAFO'd that. Whether he is Ascending or not is a RAFO.

Questioner

Okay, because I know he kind of mentions from that, I don't know how to say his name but the older guy who has the Diagram--

Brandon Sanderson

Taravangian, yeah. Whether that deserves to be a capital "A" or not is a matter of argument. It can be disputed.

Questioner

I guess my main question would just be Dalinar's now able to pull Stormlight and give it to people now.

Brandon Sanderson

He definitely can. That is a Bondsmith power, so.

Questioner

That is a Bondsmith power, okay.

Brandon Sanderson

That is specifically a Bondsmith power.

Questioner

Because my roommate was saying well, the Stormfather was surprised he could do that or was the Stormfather surprised that he was able to bridge--

Brandon Sanderson

He was surprised by what was happening to Dalinar as a whole.

Questioner

Oh okay, that's what I thought because I was like, because I felt like the Stormlight, that power would be a Bondsmith power.

Brandon Sanderson

Let's say that the Stormfather and Odium were seeing something in Dalinar that, perhaps, the average person watching even who is knowledgeable about Surges would not completely understand... But he will be able to use that power and Bondsmiths in the past have used that same power.

Footnote: Brandon clarified that he might have been unintentionally misleading in his answers to this question during his Stormlight 4 Update 1.
Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

 

[Acolyte of Radiance]

I believe unity is just nohadon telling Dalinar to unite honor and odium.

[Hayama]

On 12/13/2024 at 11:51 AM, alder24 said:

 At best he meant it as the Vessel and the power.

I can see this as a possibility. We know now that Rayse and Odium weren't the perfect match and their intents weren't always aligned, so Rayse very well could have considered himself to be separate from the power of Odium.

As a side note since we're talking about Dalinar, is anyone else intrigued by the whole "he is claimed by another" that the powers say to Taravangian when he tries to hold onto his soul? I wonder if this is really the last we've seen of ole' Dalinar...

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Hayama said:

As a side note since we're talking about Dalinar, is anyone else intrigued by the whole "he is claimed by another" that the powers say to Taravangian when he tries to hold onto his soul? I wonder if this is really the last we've seen of ole' Dalinar...

Dalinar stretched into the Beyond and he was claimed by the God Beyond. Brandon wrote it in the most straightforward way that makes this issue very clear. He's gone gone. WaT ch 145:

Quote

Dalinar’s soul slipped away from him. Stretched. And vanished into the Beyond.

[Returned he/him]

I've been vaguely wondering if Evi could have claimed Dalinar in some way, though at this point I doubt the mechanics of Dalinar's soul leaving are all that important. I agree that he's gone for good, though with Odium's simulacrum of him I don't think that that is all that meaningful.

[Stigmadiabolicum]

It's funny how he managed to beat Vins high score of shortest time as a shard, she had a day or two he had a few hours tops. 

He could have easily become a CS like Kel since he was invested as a shard, would be nice to see him again, maybe he'll be able to pop up like Nohadon to future bondsmiths regardless.

But since Brandon made it clear well never get confirmation on the god beyond or not so as to not prove Dalinar or Jasnah right or wrong, I think being claimed by the god beyond is just Dalinars own POV on what is occurring, the same thing happened to Kel when he began to stretch and he didn't think of it in any religious context. 

That WoB made it clear spiritual shadow Blackthorn won't be a major factor going forward, but hopefully he can have a face turn and basically just be a replacement Dalinar haha. 

Just on a relisten now that the graphic audio is out I'm still bummed he had such an ignominious blink and you'll miss it death in the storm, even if the whole sun makers gambit with retribution is storming awesome. 

Its just hard to imagine the Voidlight archive back 5 without Dalinar 

[Leuthie]

I don't know why Odium used "we," but it's pretty clear in WaT that Honor never died. Tanavast died after Honor left him. Honor was chillin' with the Stormfather the whole time, hidden from Odium. When Dalinar opened the Perpendicularity, Odium saw that Honor was still alive and bonded to Dalinar. Hence "We killed you"

[Jult]

13 hours ago, Leuthie said:

I don't know why Odium used "we," but it's pretty clear in WaT that Honor never died. Tanavast died after Honor left him. Honor was chillin' with the Stormfather the whole time, hidden from Odium. When Dalinar opened the Perpendicularity, Odium saw that Honor was still alive and bonded to Dalinar. Hence "We killed you"

I'm a big fan of the theory that 'Unity' is the Dor. And that it has gained a sort of self-awareness similar to Honor's (perhaps with some remnants of Aona and Skai's consciousness mixed in).

Then "We killed you" would mean "Autonomy and I killed Devotion and Dominion".

Shu-Keseg, the original religion on Sel that split into Shu-Korath (the Teod/Arelon relgion) and Shu-Dereth (the Fjorden religion), was heavily based in the concept of unity:

Quote

"Keseg taught of unity. But what did he mean? Unity of mind, as my people assume? Unity of love, as your priests claim? Or is it the unity of obedience, as the Derethi believe? In the end, I am left to ponder how mankind managed to complicate such a simple concept."

—Shuden on Keshu's teachings

And Dalinar's vision of the Blackthorn conquering a city with 'high walls' and a 'strange pale moon' in WaT sounds an awful lot like Elantris (we know Sel's moon is pale blue from this WoB). I think this vision is Retribution is retaliating against Unity for interfering with Roshar.

[Atlas333]

It's honestly crazy to me how well Unity works as the name of the Dominion and Devotion shard, but why would this be relevant to Dalinar on Roshar? The only thing I can think of is how a shard's investiture is technically everywhere in the cosmere, not just their planet (like how Nightblood contains some of Ruin)

Quote

Walin

Does Nightblood contain any of Ruin's Investiture? Like, not atium, but...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, technically; and I'm not wiggling around that, because technically, location in the Cosmere and who belongs to what gets really weird, right? Because Ruin's Investiture is everywhere--but I'm not talking that way. I'm talking the way you actually mean it. 

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

I personally very much hope that Dalinar was somehow referring to the Dor here (tapping into their shared intent), but it just seems like such a longshot for such an iconic moment in a different series. Maybe Brandon is foreshadowing stuff in the back half like you said.

[Nitpicking]

On 8/15/2025 at 7:40 AM, Jult said:

I'm a big fan of the theory that 'Unity' is the Dor. And that it has gained a sort of self-awareness similar to Honor's (perhaps with some remnants of Aona and Skai's consciousness mixed in).

The remains of Devotion and Dominion were stuffed into the Cognitive specifically to prevent them from becoming conscious, I thought. Yes, that sounds backwards.

[+Child of Hodor]

I've always thought Odium and Rayse are the "We". The Shard and the Vessel were not the best fit for each other. The Shard had previously tried to ditch Rayse for BAM and subsequently in RoW we see this golden light inside Rayse moving around it is trying to get out. The plural is an indication of the two entities not being aligned. Rayse isn't thinking of them as one singular being in that moment of stress. Rayse also uses "us" and "our army" when talking to Taravangian at the end of OB. It's like losing Dalinar as champion caused even more of a divide between the two entities and changed his self-conception.

[Jult]

On 8/18/2025 at 12:19 PM, Nitpicking said:

The remains of Devotion and Dominion were stuffed into the Cognitive specifically to prevent them from becoming conscious, I thought. Yes, that sounds backwards.

That was Rayse's goal, yes. Or at least part of it. He also wanted to make sure no new Vessels could pick up Devotion or Dominion. WoB:

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Odium locked the Selish Shards in the Cognitive Realm to keep them from achieving sentience or someone Ascending.

Footnote: taken from General Q&A
Arcanum Unbounded Hoboken signing (Dec. 3, 2016)

But we also know that Rayse was improvising and didn't really understand what he was doing. Another WoB:

Spoiler

Argent

I thought, like, at one of the signings you told me that when Odium was on Sel and Splintered the Shards there, the reason he did the Cognitive Realm hack was because he was not yet experienced in Splintering stuff.

Brandon Sanderson

Right. He did not want what happened to happen, but he didn't know that he didn't want what happened to happen.

Argent

What I was getting at is, I could never find a recording of you saying "He was not experienced. He didn't want the power to be taken by anyone, and that's the only solution he could figure out." Does that sound like something you would say?

Brandon Sanderson

That is something I would say, yes... There are better ways to do what he wanted to do, which he later did a better job with. But there's not a lot of experimenting he could do.

Argent

Limited number of subjects, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Mmhmm.

JordanCon 2018 (April 20, 2018)

I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that Rayse's Cognitive Realm hack could have failed to work as he predicted.

On 8/18/2025 at 12:16 PM, Atlas333 said:

why would this be relevant to Dalinar on Roshar?

Well, assuming Unity is the Dor and retains some remnant of Aona and Skai's consciousness (which I realize is a big swing)... Unity has good reasons to hate Rayse. They may have simply been keeping an eye on Roshar and saw a good opportunity to ruin Rayse's day.

[Nitpicking]

25 minutes ago, Jult said:

I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that Rayse's Cognitive Realm hack could have failed to work as he predicted.

I agree.

I don't think the Dor is Unity, mind you. It just feels wrong to me.

[Jult]

9 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

I agree.

I don't think the Dor is Unity, mind you. It just feels wrong to me.

That's a valid standpoint. It's not an airtight theory.

I was thinking about this some more last night. If we ever get an Elantris sequel, I really hope we get to learn more about what happens to spent Investiture on Sel. Does it return to the Dor? Or does it go back to the Spiritual Realm like it would on other planets?

If it's the later, then maybe Sel's people are unknowingly re-creating Unity by slowly returning pieces of their Investiture to the Spiritual Realm?

[Nitpicking]

Drifting toward Sel speculation ... if used Dor returns to the Spiritual Realm it stops being the Dor, meaning that the Elantrians and Dakhor monks and Bloodsealers and the rest are using up the Dor, and it will eventually cease to exist.

OTOH, if Ishar pulled the Dor into the Physical Realm, would it become a bunch of spren-like beings?

[Jult]

Both fun ideas.

8 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

Drifting toward Sel speculation ... if used Dor returns to the Spiritual Realm it stops being the Dor, meaning that the Elantrians and Dakhor monks and Bloodsealers and the rest are using up the Dor, and it will eventually cease to exist.

If the Dor is fully used up, I think Selish MoIs would probably continue to exist in some form, but the rules around them would change. Specifically, the rules around geographic location would probably no longer apply since that's a direct effect of the Dor being in the Cognitive Realm.

8 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

OTOH, if Ishar pulled the Dor into the Physical Realm, would it become a bunch of spren-like beings?

I think that would just be apocalyptic for Sel. WoB:

Spoiler

Questioner

So, Sel: Investiture has been pushed into the Cognitive Realm. Threnody: Has it seen something similar?

Brandon Sanderson

It has not seen... Okay. Yes, something similar. It would count. Something similar, yes.

Questioner

If that's the case, what would happen if you were to push Investiture into the Physical Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

It generally manifests either as a solid, liquid, or gas

Questioner

I thought about that. I was like, "We've seen that," but it seemed like a concentrated form. What if you did for like a whole Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

That would probably have disastrous effects. 

Questioner

That's why I was thinking for Threnody, but if it hasn't been that, then something else happened.

Brandon Sanderson

It hasn't been that. Something else happened.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

 

[Nitpicking]

Yes, but at the same time spren and seons and skaze and the spirits of Komashi are all sentient Investiture.