Roll Call of Heralds at Szeth's Visit To Gavilar

[+robardin he/him]

Is this summary accurate, or am I forgetting or missing anything?

Four were definitely there:

• Jezrien: Drunk at the Beggar's Feast. Busy being "Ahu".
• Nale: Talked directly with Gavilar. Pointed Parshendi to Szeth with Jez's Honorblade. Busy leading Skybreakers.
• Kalak: Talked directly with Gavilar. Noticed Szeth with Jez's Blade. Busy leading Sons of Honor, while hiding at Lasting Integrity.
• Ash: Destroying her Heraldic depictions in the hallway; glimpsed by Kalak. Busy roaming Roshar destroying her images.

Two were definitely Not Present:

• Taln: on Braize, dead since Aharietiam, not breaking. EVER.
• Chana: on Braize, dead since Shallan killed her a few years earlier, but soon to break.
  • When the Stormfather breaks off with Gavilar by saying he senses that "a Herald has died", does that really mean sensing Chana breaking on Braize?

Two may or may not have been busy elsewhere:

• Ishar: In Tukar, being Tezim, Last and First Man. ... Yet?
  • Tezim led Tukar into beginning "Eighty's War" against Sesemalex Dar, which began in 1167, which is the year Gavilar died... So he MAY have only got there after Gavilar's death, if he managed to become their God-King really, REALLY fast.
• Battar: In Kharbranth, being Dova the ardent. ... Yet?
  • We first learn that Battar was "Dova the ardent in Kharbranth" when Taravangian says she "told them (the Diagram" the Desolation was approaching". But the Diagram was only formed after his Day of Divine Intelligence after visiting the Nightwatcher's Vale, which he did AFTER talking to Gavilar on the day of his death. So she may only have gone 

Unknown / Unaccounted for:

• Vedel: ??
  • The fan theory still alive that Liss = Vedel, right? With the symptoms of Heraldric Madness usually seeming to be the opposite of their original Heraldic virtues (possibly affected by Ishar pushing Odium's power through their shared bonds after his visit to his Shardpool), Vedel the Healer becoming Liss the Assassin makes perfect sense.
• Pralla: ??
  • For a while, we had a book signing WoB that Pralla was glimpsed by Shallan while at the Palaneum in Kharbranth with Jasnah in TWoK, but that's never been canonized or mentioned again, right?

 

[Necessary Eagle she/her]

Quote

Chana: on Braize, dead since Shallan killed her a few years earlier, but soon to break.

I think that night actually was when Chana was killed.

[+robardin he/him]

5 minutes ago, Necessary Ookla said:

I think that night actually was when Chana was killed.

Ahh right, of course, that's what I got wrong!

 

[Isilel]

16 hours ago, robardin said:

 

• For a while, we had a book signing WoB that Pralla was glimpsed by Shallan while at the Palaneum in Kharbranth with Jasnah in TWoK,

 

 

But then in RoW art and now in WaT it turned out that Pailiah/Pralla neither looks old, nor was pretending to be an ardent, since her head wasn't shaved.

Re: Battar, Taravangian  lied in RoW  about her warning him about the impending Desolation for some reason. Earlier - in OB? he thought in his PoV that Dova had figured out what the Diagram was doing and forced her way in. There was also previously no hint of them being as close as the WaT scene suggests.

Edited December 13, 2024 by Isilel

[Cocoa he/him]

On 12/12/2024 at 8:26 AM, robardin said:

the Diagram was only formed after his Day of Divine Intelligence after visiting the Nightwatcher's Vale, which he did AFTER talking to Gavilar on the day of his death.

Do we know this for sure? I know that there's a bit in the Diagram about realizing the Shin have the Honorblades and thinking to make a weapon out of Truthless, which would seem to imply that it was written before Szeth killed Gavilar. Likewise, I can't remember anything in Gavilar's prologue that outright prevents Taravangian from having already visited the Nightwatcher. It's possible that he went to her not in response to Gavilar's assassination, but due to knowledge gleaned from death rattles (we know at the very least that his mother had a death rattle related to the coming of the True Desolation).

[Keitea]

On 12/12/2024 at 4:42 PM, Necessary Ookla said:

I think that night actually was when Chana was killed.

I'm curious about Chana mentioning dying again. So Chana died, supposedly the same night Gavilar was killed. She broke shortly after and returned to Roshar. It's unclear what she did then, apart from visiting Shallan. And then she died again.

[alder24]

8 hours ago, Cocoa said:

Do we know this for sure? I know that there's a bit in the Diagram about realizing the Shin have the Honorblades and thinking to make a weapon out of Truthless, which would seem to imply that it was written before Szeth killed Gavilar. Likewise, I can't remember anything in Gavilar's prologue that outright prevents Taravangian from having already visited the Nightwatcher. It's possible that he went to her not in response to Gavilar's assassination, but due to knowledge gleaned from death rattles (we know at the very least that his mother had a death rattle related to the coming of the True Desolation).

Taravangian said in earlier books that he visited the Nightwatcher after Gavilar's assassination and they wanted to use Szeth because of how he killed Gavilar. 

[+robardin he/him]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

Taravangian said in earlier books that he visited the Nightwatcher after Gavilar's assassination and they wanted to use Szeth because of how he killed Gavilar. 

So the Diagram including musing like this, on a floorboard:

Quote

TheyarewiththeShinWemustfindoneCanwemaketouseaTruthless

Canwecraftaweapon

This was done AFTER Gavilar's murder, and so is about realizing that Szeth was a Shinovar Truthless armed with an Honorblade to have done what he did, in which case the Diagram "just" had to figure out who had his Oathstone now and then to go and get it (which is exactly what they did).

That's what "crafting a weapon" meant: not the way that Crazy Ishar "crafted" Szeth from shepherd boy to Honorbearer to Truthless-with-Jezrien's-Blade, but turning "Truthless being used as Makkek the gambling den operator's muscle" into "the means by which we will destabilize Roshar by killing most of its rulers Gavilar-style".

[The Sovereign]

38 minutes ago, Keitea said:

I'm curious about Chana mentioning dying again. So Chana died, supposedly the same night Gavilar was killed. She broke shortly after and returned to Roshar. It's unclear what she did then, apart from visiting Shallan. And then she died again.

Chana is killed the first time by Shallan the night Gavilar is assassinated. Chana breaks around the same time Dalinar frees the Bridgemen from Sadeas. Hoid goes to Kohlinar to "greet" Taln when he returns which is roughly the same time as Dalinar giving up Oathbringer. She would have returned then as well. She then attends Shallan and Adolin's Wedding and then dies again. I would guess this is during the year between Oathbringer and Rhythm of War.

Edited December 18, 2024 by The Sovereign
Correcting a spelling error.

[Chris712]

On 12/12/2024 at 4:42 PM, Necessary Eagle said:

I think that night actually was when Chana was killed.

It wouldn't make any sense I think if The Stormfather was talking about Chanarach. Shallan killed her mother when she was really young and there was 4 years between the death of Gavillar and WoK, if I'm not mistaken. So idk... or am I that wrong about the timelines... ?

[Jult]

1 hour ago, Chris712 said:

It wouldn't make any sense I think if The Stormfather was talking about Chanarach. Shallan killed her mother when she was really young and there was 4 years between the death of Gavillar and WoK, if I'm not mistaken. So idk... or am I that wrong about the timelines... ?

• Shallan was born in Vev (4) of 1156.
• Shallan bonded Testament somewhere around Tanat (9) of 1165 (which would make her around 9 and a half years old).
• The date of Gavilar's assassination was in Ishi (10) of  1167 (which would make Shallan 11.5 when it happened).
• Shallan killed her father in Ishi (10) of 1172 (16.5 years old)
• Shallan reached Kharbranth in WoK on exactly 1173.6.10.3 (17.2 years old)

Note: these are Rosharan years so Shallan would be older in standard years.

So, it's more like 6 years between Gavilar's death and the main events of WoK.

If you haven't checked out the Roshar Map and Timeline as well as the spreadsheet that it's based on, I highly recommend it. It's super useful.