Kaladin will redeem Moash in back half

[nova]

Kaladin, Herald of second chances.

This book Kaladin wrestled with helping someone who he wasn't sure deserved it. I think in the back half Kaladin will be forced to confront Moash and will choose to give him a second chance. 

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

5 minutes ago, nova said:

Kaladin, Herald of second chances.

This book Kaladin wrestled with helping someone who he wasn't sure deserved it. I think in the back half Kaladin will be forced to confront Moash and will choose to give him a second chance. 

And then Moash, in true Moash form, will accept that second chance and then use it to kill Bippy or something and we will all hate him even more. storm Moash

[+robardin he/him]

1 hour ago, CognitiveShadow said:

And then Moash, in true Moash form, will accept that second chance and then use it to kill Bippy or something and we will all hate him even more. storm Moash

What? Bippy? BIPPY?!

NOOOOO NOT BIPPPYYYYY

STORMING MOASH

[Master Silver]

I actually think, and this would be great. Seth becomes a Windrunner, with Sigzals spren, and then he kills Moash as Kaladin is unable to get to the Windrunners in time. That would be a super meaningful ending. Kaladin became Radiant because of Moash and Seth. Seth is redeemed and protects those Kaladin cannot protect.

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

3 hours ago, Master Silver said:

I actually think, and this would be great. Seth becomes a Windrunner, with Sigzals spren, and then he kills Moash as Kaladin is unable to get to the Windrunners in time. That would be a super meaningful ending. Kaladin became Radiant because of Moash and Seth. Seth is redeemed and protects those Kaladin cannot protect.

I love this - Kaladin stepped up as a Herald in the place of Szeth so that Szeth could have a second chance at a peaceful life. Then Szeth takes up the sword again to take care of Kaladin's Moash problem to spare Kaladin the pain of having to be the one to deal with it. A debt repaid

4 hours ago, robardin said:

What? Bippy? BIPPY?!

NOOOOO NOT BIPPPYYYYY

STORMING MOASH

I know, I hate to have even put it into the universe but I was trying to think of what else Moash could do to be even worse. It was the worst thing that came to mind.

[clowncarcrash]

I'm for it.

[Argenti he/him]

1 hour ago, CognitiveShadow said:

I know, I hate to have even put it into the universe but I was trying to think of what else Moash could do to be even worse. It was the worst thing that came to mind.

Hey there's a couple spare unimportant bridge four member for him to kill... Hobber? 

[teknopathetic he/him]

I hope Moash does something eventually. Each book he is just such a waste of page space. We know he will kill a Bridge 4 person and then disappear unremarkably every book ...

He is just soooo boring. 

Edited December 12, 2024 by teknopathetic

[RedBlue]

Moash didn’t get a whole lot to do this book, which is unfortunate because I always look forward to him.

I’m very curious to see what will happen with him in the back half. A redemption arc would be great — I like those, and Moash would be a tough nut to crack, which makes it interesting. But I don’t know how likely it is at this point. Moash seemed to hit rock bottom at the end of RoW, and spent WaT doubling down. What could make him want to dig himself out of this pit now?

[ShadowBroker]

I was so on board with Moash redemption right up until this book. At this point, I'm just totally sick of his rust, and I consider his return to Odium here to be the final nail in the coffin of the point "no matter how many chances he's given, he will always make the wrong choice." He really feels like the Padan Fain of the series at this point, just always stooping even lower.

[Alcatur]

8 hours ago, RedBlue said:

What could make him want to dig himself out of this pit now?

Yeah, I think this is the main problem with any Moash redemption.

 

I can buy Kaladin deciding to give him a chance (as in offering one). However I cannot see Moash taking it and I have really hard time imagining anything that would change this state of things. 

[Darvys]

I think Moash should have died in RoW with a spear through his skull after Kaladin swore the 4th, now he feels to me like a character who outlived his usefulness "Oh look it's Moash, time to lose another bridge 4 member. Get mad !" meh, I'm just annoyed at this point.

I don't care how Kaladin deals with him, I don't want him to even get the chance to meet Kaladin, let him suffer while hearing of his former team's heroism before Gav shoves Oathbringer up his ass.

[Aon Tia she/her]

12 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

I hope Moash does something eventually. Each book he is just such a waste of page space. We know he will kill a Bridge 4 person and then disappear unremarkably every book ...

He is just soooo boring. 

This book he certainly was as you said. 

RoW not so much because he was trying to get Kaladin to kill himself just so Moash can say he is right! 

No redemption for Moash! 

He closed that door long long ago!

Can you please, Brandon, kill this guy for good in the next book! He is a total waste of space!

Kaladin the Herald of second chances will take one look at Moash and say "not you" and kill him. 

Edited December 13, 2024 by Aon Tia

[Akeomai]

On 12/13/2024 at 3:15 AM, Aon Tia said:

This book he certainly was as you said. 

RoW not so much because he was trying to get Kaladin to kill himself just so Moash can say he is right! 

No redemption for Moash! 

He closed that door long long ago!

Can you please, Brandon, kill this guy for good in the next book! He is a total waste of space!

Kaladin the Herald of second chances will take one look at Moash and say "not you" and kill him. 

I love this.  I hope he looks at Moash and just says "yeahhhhhhhhhhh   ....  NO"  whoosh vaporize... (reminiscent of Indiana Jones and the swordsman scene - one of my favorite scenes in the genre). No transformative revelations, no drama no confessions.  Just off the guy.  Of course, he's (Moash) probably going to be the mini-me of the new improved  super-villain Taravangian's cosmic domination plot, unless Taravangian chooses El.  I feel like those two, El and Vyre, are destined for some sort of conflict in the far future.  Maybe El will be the death of Vyre.  

 

[XaliaStormblessed she/her]

On 12/13/2024 at 5:15 AM, Aon Tia said:

Kaladin the Herald of second chances will take one look at Moash and say "not you" and kill him. 

Yes, PLEASE.

[Kelsier Kenobi]

If stabbing someone in the face with an honor spear can be considered redemption then I am all for it.

[spootime]

He's the herald of second chances, not third, fourth, fifth, and sixth chances. After the second chance you're getting an honorspear where the stormlight dont shine. 

[Returned he/him]

Moash is barely even a character any more. He doesn't seem to do much of anything or even want anything at this point, so what's the substrate for any possible redemption? Introducing any new details or plotlines for him at this point would be so jarring as to feel totally arbitrary to me. Even in his own POV segments pretty much everything about him as an individual has been boiled away.

[Elsecaller she/her]

I can see it happenening as an end to Kaladin and Moash arc and also as an affirmation of the third Windrunner ideal. 

I feel like redeeming the Heralds and Szeth are all kind of easy mode for Kaladin as they all had good intentions and reasons to "fall" , and Moash would be his toughest case... 

Frankly Moash is unredeemable to me and to Bridge Four, so maybe the story als goes that way. 

[Elsecaller she/her]

I can see it happenening as an end to Kaladin and Moash arc and also as an affirmation of the third Windrunner ideal. 

I feel like redeeming the Heralds and Szeth are all kind of easy mode for Kaladin as they all had good intentions and reasons to "fall" , and Moash would be his toughest case... 

Frankly Moash is unredeemable to me and to Bridge Four, so maybe the story als goes that way. 

[Cocoa he/him]

On the one hand, I dislike writing off any character of being beyond the reach of redemption, and I think the themes of SA support that.

On the other hand, I think WaT did a pretty good job of driving the final nail (or perhaps gemstone spike) into Moash's coffin, and it's gonna take something big to convince me that he's capable of penitence—not even redemption—at this point in time. We've seen the choices he made after getting his revenge on Elhokar and having the option to step away from the fighting, we've seen the choices he made when Odium was actively siphoning off his emotions and letting him think 'logically,' and we've seen the choices that he made when Odium refused to take away his emotions and let him feel the full fallout of his killing Teft. Consistently, he's made the choices that will let him hurt people, be that an old mad Herald, his old friends and brothers-in-arms, or innocent bystanders like Jeber. He's fallen into the same trap that Sadeas did after Urithiru was discovered and Amaram did at Thaylen field; "I'm going to keep doubling down on my current path no matter what, because the alternative is facing up to the fact that I was objectively wrong and that the pain I've caused was ultimately all for nothing." The antithesis of "Journey before destination."

If Moash does get a redemption arc, I suspect it's going to be heavily wrapped up with Gavinor (though that doesn't discount Kaladin from playing a role too, given Moash's status as his foil). Here we have two men that are, at this point, about the same age, who've both sold themselves out to Odium, and who are on opposite sides of a blood feud. Gavinor's driving motivation up to this point has been avenging himself on his father's killer, while Moash's was avenging himself on Elhokar (of whom Gavinor is a splitting image) and by extension his family in exchange for the deaths of his grandparents. If the story themes hold, one of them is going to have to break the cycle, and that's going to either force the other person to confront what they've become and repent, or it's going to cause them to snap and try to kill the one doing the forgiving.

[newindianclassic he/him]

I think Kaladin's Herald of Second Chances is more about his conversation with Wit on the first day, where Wit tells Kaladin; 

Quote

“You know what first drew me to you, Kaladin?” Wit asked. “You did one of the most difficult things a man can do: you gave yourself a second chance.”

They don't really have to be mutually exclusive, but Kaladin already gave Moash more than one second chance. 

Kaladin gave himself a second chance and is slowly going to give the Heralds the courage to do the same for themselves with this new Oathpact. 

Edited December 18, 2024 by newindianclassic
Formatting

[Wanguu He/Him]

17 hours ago, Cocoa said:

If Moash does get a redemption arc, I suspect it's going to be heavily wrapped up with Gavinor (though that doesn't discount Kaladin from playing a role too, given Moash's status as his foil). Here we have two men that are, at this point, about the same age, who've both sold themselves out to Odium, and who are on opposite sides of a blood feud. Gavinor's driving motivation up to this point has been avenging himself on his father's killer, while Moash's was avenging himself on Elhokar (of whom Gavinor is a splitting image) and by extension his family in exchange for the deaths of his grandparents. If the story themes hold, one of them is going to have to break the cycle, and that's going to either force the other person to confront what they've become and repent, or it's going to cause them to snap and try to kill the one doing the forgiving.

Oh wow, what an amazing point. I was wondering what Brandon was going to do with adult Gavinor (poor poor Gavinor, who even knows what Odium had shown gavinor in the years he spent in the spiritual realm) and having Gavinor vs Moash as both servants of Retribution makes sense. Both of these characters have a very strong reason to get revenge against each other! 

[MagicMaggot]

Thinking of a potential redemption for Moash, I can't help but think about the new information we got about Skybreakers. The Words of Radience epigraphs describe the Skybreakers as an order "determined to care for the unwanted, the unguarded", and say that "The Skybreakers, who have always quietly cared for those the law forgets, do still exist, as previously accounted; they merely exist in multiple forms.". While that doesn't really seem to fit with Nale's cuttent order, we'll hopefully see more of that philosophy with Skybreaker dissenters in the future. 

And well... thinking about a best possible version of Moash, that's the direction where I would look. Moash was never about protecting everyone, but all about bringing justice in the name of the oppressed. Getting guidance in doing that while staying true to moral principles, instead of just acting on passion, might be the way to go there. I can't see Kaladin doing that, though, and think Seth or Nale himself would be more reasonable fits for Moash. There could still be interesting meetings with Kaladin, but I just can't see him reaching out here. 

Indeed, Retribution himself might actually start him on that path, by incorporating and communicating concepts of Honor next to his speech about passion. Which might easily be where it stops, though. Being a champion of retribution might just be the better fit for MoashAnd we don't really want to make him Ironeyes 2.0, do we?