Diverse and interesting protagonist powers becoming more prominent going forward

[radren]

Off the top of my head, here are those that have non-stormlight fueled powers that can fight against Retribution:

• Adolin and the Unoathed
• Lift
• Vasher and Vivena
• Szeth with Nightblood
• The Heralds (it wasn't clear to me what they can and can't do using old magic, but they can obviously do some things as evidenced by the fight between Nale and Kaladin)
• World hoppers (I'm hoping for a special ops squad from Scadrial)
• Maybe Rlain and Renarin since they have corrupted spren. I'm not certain.
• Kaladin seems to have new powers with his bond to The Wind (can he listen in on conversations all across Roshar? Can he control the weather?)

My question is will there will be champions for the Stone and Night? If so, who could they be? Venli seems like a possibility for Stone. The Night got very little mention in WaT, and neither did the Midnight Mother. That seems intentional and I suspect we see more with those in the second arc. Who are some other beings that can fight back without the aid of stormlight?

[Szeth Pancakes he/they]

What if there's a Nightwatcher Bondsmith that ends up being a champion of the Night, or something similar? It's gotta be a major PoV character, but not one with flashbacks, so maybe Gavinor? That means all three Bondsmiths end up being Kholins, though, which I'm not sure I like.

Shallan might get a chance to develop her Old Magic stuff more. She got some closure with Chana at the end of WaT, but it might be cool to see them get to a point where they can team up. 

I'm pretty sure Renarin and Rlain can run on Warlight.

Some Unmade might join the fight against Retribution -- probably Mishram and Sja-Anat, but I wouldn't be surprised if we see some others, even the less-sapient ones, switch sides too.

[wormotif]

I'm pretty sure any Radiant can run on Warlight. Radiants can run on Towerlight just fine, so we know non-Stormlight can work. And we actually see Venli using Warlight to fuel her Willshaper powers in the end of WaT:
 

Quote

Venli ran past him to the building where, using Retribution’s gifted Light, she’d secretly made a passage downward, and had found the underground pool to be empty.

While Venli is a Singer, there's no particular indication to my knowledge that that should make a difference. She's got a perfectly normal Nahel bond with a lightspren.

And, story-wise, Retribution has a bunch of loyal Skybreakers & Dustbringers that he might as well hang onto given that he can't absorb their spren. He's also got a lot of human kingdoms that may continue to produce Radiants as well (a PoV new Radiant from a Retribution-ruled human kingdom would be a really interesting way to explore the new Roshar under Retribution in the second half!). If these have no access to their surges, they're not that useful, so presumably they'll be able to use warlight.

[FollowYourMuse she/her]

5 minutes ago, wormotif said:

I'm pretty sure any Radiant can run on Warlight. Radiants can run on Towerlight just fine, so we know non-Stormlight can work. And we actually see Venli using Warlight to fuel her Willshaper powers in the end of WaT:
 

While Venli is a Singer, there's no particular indication to my knowledge that that should make a difference. She's got a perfectly normal Nahel bond with a lightspren.

And, story-wise, Retribution has a bunch of loyal Skybreakers & Dustbringers that he might as well hang onto given that he can't absorb their spren. He's also got a lot of human kingdoms that may continue to produce Radiants as well (a PoV new Radiant from a Retribution-ruled human kingdom would be a really interesting way to explore the new Roshar under Retribution in the second half!). If these have no access to their surges, they're not that useful, so presumably they'll be able to use warlight.

The problem is it is specifically gifted from Retribution, I doubt that he will be gifting it to those that do not worship or agree to his rule. 

 

[wormotif]

41 minutes ago, FollowYourMuse said:

The problem is it is specifically gifted from Retribution, I doubt that he will be gifting it to those that do not worship or agree to his rule. 

 

Agreed. Trying to get hold of investiture for the Radiants in Azir (and for those in Urithriu, should they find a way out of the tower) should be an interesting plot point. 

[feruchemicalrockband]

Adding to what everyone else has said, but I'm willing to bet Stormlight itself can still be made.

Urithuru is still full of tower light, which Radiants can use to invest spheres. There's no reason to assume they can't make Stormlight from Towerlight using the methods Navani figured out in Rhythm of War. It just heavily limits how much they can make, as it requires vacuum tubes and what not.

Edited December 13, 2024 by feruchemicalrockband

[MagicMaggot]

Two points on that...

1. The way Retribution will get his investiture into circulation isn't necessarily finalized yet. If he has to stand against most of the Cosmere, he can't really be stingy with his power, and once it's out there, there will be ways to use it. 

2. He is the sole god of Roshar now. The most important enemies are outside, not inside. He might well seek a kind of peace within Roshar. And he might just get it, considering whatever the cosmere sends his way doesn't necessarily care about collateral damage on Roshar. So he might not really have to try to keep power out of radiant hands, since they might still be his ally against the foes that count. 

 

Considering that Roshar is now likely in the crosshairs of pretty much every shard, we'll certainly see a lot of resistance against Retribution that isn't natively Rosharan, but I don't think the oathed surgebinders running on Roshar's plentyful investiture will be a thing of the past.

 

[QuantumHarmonix he/him]

I don't see Retribution being able to forgive those that opposed him.  A saying along the lines of his honor demands satisfaction to the slight comes to mind. So I don't see him letting them get warlight easily. I hadn't thought about them using the harmonics trick to blank towerlight and then tuning it so that it lasts outside. I'm also thinking there might be something with the natural tones of Roshar being able to give them access to surges now that the agreement between Honor, Odium, and Cultivation to limit access is broken. 

[MagicMaggot]

Well. we haven't really had much detail on Retribution's Intent. The closest we probably got was "Retribution would keep his promises. Oaths were important. And Retribution would destroy anyone who believed differently", which doesn't really sound as if it is directed at personal slights, yet. Honor itself seemed mostly interested in the upholding of rules, and I don't see any rulebreaking-implications in opposing Taravangian, and when he only held Odium, Taravangian, as opposed to Rayse, seemed not to have much of a problem with opposition to him, personally. So I don't really see why Taravangian as Retribution would have to be about that. If we wanted that kind of pettyness in our antagonist god, we wouldn't have had to get rid of Rayse in the first place. 

 

[Qianweilian He/him]

On 12/11/2024 at 11:32 PM, radren said:

Brandon nerfed Stormlight

You mean by destroying all of it? I would say that's a bit more that a "nerf"

[+Oltux72 he/him]

41 minutes ago, Qianweilian said:

You mean by destroying all of it? I would say that's a bit more that a "nerf"

Did he also get that stored in Ire devices?

[Nitpicking]

Stormlight has to come back or be replaced, because the Back Five has to highlight five Radiant Orders that haven't had "their" books yet.

In the Cosmere's Space Age, (spoiler warning):

Spoiler

We see a Skybreaker on First of the Sun, so some source of Investiture that looks like Light is present.

 

[alder24]

9 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

Stormlight has to come back or be replaced, because the Back Five has to highlight five Radiant Orders that haven't had "their" books yet.

In the Cosmere's Space Age, (spoiler warning):

  Hide contents

We see a Skybreaker on First of the Sun, so some source of Investiture that looks like Light is present.

SP5 spoilers:

Spoiler

That Skybreaker's plate is glowing with a blue-violet light - looks like Warlight to me. I think Stormlight is not coming back, but Warlight will be usable by Radiants. SP5 ch 3:

Quote

This creature stood seven feet tall, and was encased entirely in steel. Armor of a futuristic cast, smooth and bright, soft violet-blue at the joints. The helmet glowed at the front from a slit-like visor with an arcane symbol—reminding Dusk vaguely of a bird in flight—etched into the front of the breastplate.

 

 

[StanLemon]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

SP5 spoilers:

  Hide contents

That Skybreaker's plate is glowing with a blue-violet light - looks like Warlight to me. I think Stormlight is not coming back, but Warlight will be usable by Radiants. SP5 ch 3:

 

 

Spoiler

I'm not exactly sure that counts. Plate doesn't glow the color of the Investiture but based on the order of the Radiant 

 

[alder24]

16 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

  Hide contents

I'm not exactly sure that counts. Plate doesn't glow the color of the Investiture but based on the order of the Radiant 

 

SP5 spoilers:

Spoiler

The problem is no Radiant Order has this color, Skybreakers has a grey one. This also isn't an Unoathed plate because it has a glyph on it. The only logical explanation left is that it's Warlight and maybe it's leaking because maybe the plate is damaged in way or something changed since Retribution Ascension.some 

 

Edited December 15, 2024 by alder24

[StanLemon]

21 minutes ago, alder24 said:

SP5 spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

The problem is no Radiant Order has this color, Skybreakers has a grey one. This also isn't an Unoathed plate because it has a glyph on it. The only logical explanation left is that it's Warlight and maybe it's leaking because maybe the plate is damaged in way or something changed since Retribution Ascension.some 

 

Spoiler

The closest thing we have to official art of Skybreakers gives them a violet coloration glow. Additionally Warlight is a black blue color, not violet. And it would be a little weird for them to randomly start glowing the color of the Investiture instead of the color of the order. 

 

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

On 12/13/2024 at 3:56 PM, wormotif said:

I'm pretty sure any Radiant can run on Warlight. Radiants can run on Towerlight just fine, so we know non-Stormlight can work. And we actually see Venli using Warlight to fuel her Willshaper powers in the end of WaT:
 

While Venli is a Singer, there's no particular indication to my knowledge that that should make a difference. She's got a perfectly normal Nahel bond with a lightspren.

And, story-wise, Retribution has a bunch of loyal Skybreakers & Dustbringers that he might as well hang onto given that he can't absorb their spren. He's also got a lot of human kingdoms that may continue to produce Radiants as well (a PoV new Radiant from a Retribution-ruled human kingdom would be a really interesting way to explore the new Roshar under Retribution in the second half!). If these have no access to their surges, they're not that useful, so presumably they'll be able to use warlight.

We *do* know Venli is special, actually. Not because she's a Singer, per se, but because she's specifically a Regal. This gives her the ability to fuel her surgebinding with even pure voidlight (as well as stormlight like normal radiants), so even if most radiants can't use warlight, I would still expect her to be able to.

Towerlight being useable by radiants is definitely better precedent, since it like Warlight is a Stormlight mixture. So if we assume that the two work the same, then yes it would make sense for Radiants to be able to use Warlight. But there's not, necessarily, reason to think they are the same. Knights Radiant aren't purely of honor, they're also of cultivation. And Towerlight is specifically associated with the hometower of the radiants. So it could certainly be that Radiants can use pure Stormlight and Towerlight but not other stormlight mixtures. It doesn't *have* to be like that, but it's plausible that it could be.

I think ultimately, it doesn't come down to a question of in-world mechanics cause those could point either way; it's a question of narrative. And looking at it that way, I'm inclined to go with the idea that Warlight *can* fuel radiants, but Retribution will be stingy with who he gives it to. That lets you have a story where Radiants have to make moral sacrifices in service of Retribution if they want power, or be constantly on their backfoot and having to take or trade from people who he is willing to bless. Which means protagonist Radiants can have cool moments where they go all-out using a bunch of Warlight, but aren't always at that same powerlevel and can be threatened by weaker things

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

The Radiants can probably run on Warlight. TR has two entire Orders under his direct sway and it would be a shame if he could not use them. Radiants will have Stormlight. Navani already wrote the book on how to get it from alternative light sources. It's probably gonna be expensive but not unobtainable. Further, TR himself could probably provide either light individually or the blend. My question isn't for existing Radiants, they'll be fine for power, or at least not totally empty. My question is who is verifying the Oaths or initiating new bonds? They can't all be UnOathed, right? And if they are, do they get more than just power armor and mutable sword eventually?

[AlmightyGir]

On 12/15/2024 at 1:08 PM, alder24 said:

  Hide contents

Spoiler

That Skybreaker's plate is glowing with a blue-violet light - looks like Warlight to me. I think Stormlight is not coming back, but Warlight will be usable by Radiants. SP5 ch 3:

Quote

Spoiler

This creature stood seven feet tall, and was encased entirely in steel. Armor of a futuristic cast, smooth and bright, soft violet-blue at the joints. The helmet glowed at the front from a slit-like visor with an arcane symbol—reminding Dusk vaguely of a bird in flight—etched into the front of the breastplate.

 

This sounds an awful lot like Sigzil to me... Doesn't his plate have a combination of wind spren (blue) and gravitation spren (violet, presumably)?

Edited January 2, 2025 by AlmightyGir

[WordOfBrandon]

@AlmightyGir Warlight is described as black-blue and also the creature in sixth of the dusk speaks in rhythms.  I'm pretty sure its a Parshendi.  I think the violet-blue light will be something from stormlight 6-10.  

[Raven Wilder]

I don't think Retribution can afford to be "stingy" with Warlight. With the Everstorm blanketing almost the whole continent, food production is almost entirely dependent on using Warlight infused gemstones to grow crops. This means not only will there need to be a lot of infused gemstones floating around, just waiting to be acquired, but that the distribution of Warlight will need to run more or less on autopilot - Retribution's attention is often pulled away from micromanaging Roshar, and they can't afford to have their subjects starve just 'cause Taravangian was too busy to infusing anything today.

I do think stormlight is going to come back in a big way, though, simply because the title of the series is The Stormlight Archive - it'd be weird to have the thing it's named after disappear halfway through.

[BinarySecond]

I think it will behoove Retribution to allow relatively free movement of Warlight. And to provide it with anyone who prays for it. It's a war of propaganda at this stage.

 

I personally believe that when Syl returns the Highstorm will return. The Heralds now bring the Highstorm during a Desolation.

 

 

[Nitpicking]

12 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

The Radiants can probably run on Warlight. TR has two entire Orders under his direct sway and it would be a shame if he could not use them. Radiants will have Stormlight. Navani already wrote the book on how to get it from alternative light sources. It's probably gonna be expensive but not unobtainable. Further, TR himself could probably provide either light individually or the blend. My question isn't for existing Radiants, they'll be fine for power, or at least not totally empty. My question is who is verifying the Oaths or initiating new bonds? They can't all be UnOathed, right? And if they are, do they get more than just power armor and mutable sword eventually?

The Wind accepted Kaladin's Fifth Ideal, for what that's worth. The Stormfather was made specifically to replace the Wind, so maybe she'll step back into her old job. I'm assuming that the Nightwatcher is also still operational somewhere, like the Sibling. Retribution can't absorb and Unmake the spren because of the new Oathpact.

Edited January 2, 2025 by Nitpicking

[KalKel]

On 12/13/2024 at 5:05 PM, feruchemicalrockband said:

Adding to what everyone else has said, but I'm willing to bet Stormlight itself can still be made.

Urithuru is still full of tower light, which Radiants can use to invest spheres. There's no reason to assume they can't make Stormlight from Towerlight using the methods Navani figured out in Rhythm of War. It just heavily limits how much they can make, as it requires vacuum tubes and what not.

Second! RoW foreshadows what you have mentioned and then other books talk about unkeyed investiture, I look for both to be part of SA phase 2.  

Having Urithiru as a source (assuming it can be sustainable with their defenses they setup and the sibling in a coma) to convert to stormlight with be key to recharging in Book 6.  

[+Bzhydack he/him]

I think Radiants can run on Warlight, and also they can get Stormlight either from Towerlight or from Warlight, but problem is Retribution can simply absorb this Light in any time. So they need to figure out how to blank its Identity and cut off from his influence.