Wind and Truth Full Book Reactions (No Cosmere Edition)

[king of nowhere]

 

On 4/11/2025 at 8:40 PM, Chaos said:

Discussion naturally occurs in reaction threads, and has always been the case. I think this is fine so far. Please report if you feel things progress, and we will make a determination. This seems totally fine so far.

Ok, back to posting them

On 4/11/2025 at 12:58 PM, Nitpicking said:

You're clinging hard to the human perspective. From the point of view of the Singers it looks very different.

No, I am trying a perspective of greater good which accounts for the well-being of both humans and listeners. and that, unsurprisingly, entails coming to an agreement that allows both sides to live, rather than battering one into submission.

if i am focusing on "what else the humans should have done" instead of what the singers could have done, it's because the slaveform singers couldn't have done anything.

I don't care how it looks froom the singer's side. revenge is not justice, especially against people whose wrongdoing were entirely made in ignorance. they have every right to defend their newfound freedom; they have no right to infringe on the freedom of others.

besides, the singers got coopted into mobilizing for war by the voidspren, their lives wasted by the hundreds of thousands. most of them would have taken a truce with the humans, had odium allowed it.

On 4/11/2025 at 10:21 PM, Mason Wheeler said:

And the truly crazy thing?  None of it was necessary.  Far from the callous "let them eat cake" persona that the libelles smeared her as, Marie Antoinette was a kindhearted ruler who gave generously to the poor and to charitable causes helping the most vulnerable.  Yes, there were real problems, but the people in charge were aware of them and were actively working to resolve them.

There is some truth to that, if put properly in context. Luis XVI was trying to fix things. In fact, a more callous ruler may have ordered the army to shoot on the protestors, avoiding the revolution. and it wasn't him who caused the economic crysis, but the large spendings of his ancestors, mostly luis XIV. Not sure about marie antoniette, i heard that she gave charity but also that she spent big time.

regardless, the people in charge kept making a mess of things. so in the end the revolution that started the decline of the monarchies wasn't caused by an evil king, but by an incompetent one. an evil kind would have crushed the revolution under an iron boot.

anyway, if the people had just trusted in the rulers to fix things, we'd still have absolute monarchies and kings by divine right. so i would say, some good did come out of the whole mess.

6 hours ago, Mason Wheeler said:

The Constitution was written 2 years before the French Revolution began, and ratified the next year; in historical terms, they were essentially simultaneous.  In the intervening time, how many times has the government of the USA collapsed and had to be rebuilt from the ground up?

Zero.

Are you simply trolling at this point, or do you legitimately not understand the difference between reform and collapse?

"collapse" is a word used way too often. the economy "collapsed" many times, yet most people got on without problems. I'm hearing the word "collapse" many times per day in my news feed, and yet nothing has collapsed at all. it seems "collapse" is used as synonim with "temporarily inconvenienced". but the media must always exaggerate to sell the story.

I don't know about france, but in italy we have the second republic after the "collapse" of the first... which entailed a large trial for corruption involving all the main political parties, that lost popular support, and within a few years got disbanded and substituted for new ones. Good times, actually. None of that caused any major inconvenience for the citizens. I feel most nations could use some of that "collapse".

Instead, nowadays, when a politician is condemned for embezzling money, his voters defend him. he gains more votes. no, i'm not even talking about any specific politician, it's happened on most democracies in the last decade. I wonder what went wrong with the average voters. We should be happy when the law applied to those in charge. we used to support the judges on that.

Meanwhile, north korea has kept a stable system of government for the last 70 years, without any hint of an institutional crysis. if you value stability by itself, that should make it the best-ruled country on the planet...

 

[Chaos he/him]

Okay, now you all can go into some other topic, since I do think the extensive comparisons with real-world societies, which is clearly where you want to go, can go elsewhere. That's a bit further than just reacts. One of you go do that.

Of course discussion can happen here, that is natural, but the further it goes into the weeds, the less general it is.

Edited April 14, 2025 by Chaos

[king of nowhere]

15 hours ago, Chaos said:

Okay, now you all can go into some other topic, since I do think the extensive comparisons with real-world societies, which is clearly where you want to go, can go elsewhere. That's a bit further than just reacts. One of you go do that.

Of course discussion can happen here, that is natural, but the further it goes into the weeds, the less general it is.

i was refraining from commenting further because it was clear the discussion was going in that direction. i posted because you gave permission.

i will go back to refraining mode, then

[Chaos he/him]

14 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

i was refraining from commenting further because it was clear the discussion was going in that direction. i posted because you gave permission.

i will go back to refraining mode, then

You're all good. I'm not picking on you in particular (or at least, that's not the intent). It can be hard to tell if discussions will go for a bit or sustain for a long time. 

[Vielence She/Her]

On 12/8/2024 at 12:59 PM, mohubb said:

Did anyone else cry when Kaladin stood up at the end?

yes

[Vielence She/Her]

Gahhhhh so I just reread WaT. 

Can somebody gimme a flowchart or something? Bc I am REELING. Help!

[Nitpicking]

2 hours ago, VieB13 said:

Gahhhhh so I just reread WaT. 

Can somebody gimme a flowchart or something? Bc I am REELING. Help!

Sure, here you go:

https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/1195:_Flowchart

[LazarusRises]

Finished the book yesterday. Not in contention for my favorite SLA books, but there was a lot going on and I liked the way many of my favorite arcs in the series concluded. Some general thoughts...

• Pacing was all over the place, this has been my biggest problem with the SLA books since Oathbringer. I started out really excited to explore Shinovar, but it felt weirdly empty. I know Ishar had been hollowing it out for decades, but it didn't feel hollow, it felt... flat. I dunno, maybe I'm too used to the marvels of Rosharan ecology.
• Loved Kaladin's arc. I've seen some commenters online complaining about how heavy-handed the therapy stuff was, and while I see what they mean, I was fully ready for it and thought it communicated the lessons he learned. Stepping through all the people he'd been on his way to ascending was amazing. I was convinced his final Ideal would be "I will help others find ways to help themselves," so I wasn't far off!
• Dalinar. Poor brave Dalinar. I was terrified that he was going to lose the contest and become TOdium's general, a fate far worse than death for him. I had wondered whether "unite them" meant unite the shards, but I was thinking about all 16, not just Honor + Odium--though, who knows, maybe this is the first step to that. I'm also pretty hyped that we get to see Unmade!Dalinar without him having to actually be that.
• I'm fascinated by the fourth moon, and very curious about what it says about Roshar's divine inhabitants. I've seen some theorizing that Reason has been on Roshar all along, hiding from sight, which fits the fragments we have about the shattered moon "hiding" or "shrouding" things from the sight of gods. I've also seen some speculation that the fourth moon is somehow related to Big A... which ties into the next point:
• I'm very curious who had a better claim on Dalinar's soul than Odium/Honor. He literally broke his oaths *while holding Honor*, seems like the shard should have had free reign to do with him what it pleased. Best theory I've seen is that Big A was able to make this claim way ahead of time, or via his cognitive shadow Nohadon, or... who knows.
• I love Jasnah, but she deserved to be taken down a few pegs. Here's hoping she learns from this in the back half.
• Adolin is the best, most golden of boys and he will always be a champion of a hero. What an absolute legend.

[Second Chances]

Does anyone have the page that Holds "you will be warm again" quote from Rhythm of War is from?

[Vielence She/Her]

On 5/7/2025 at 8:30 PM, Nitpicking said:

Sure, here you go:

https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/1195:_Flowchart

OMG THANK YOU!!

Umm I have another question sorry 

Sooo is it me or do we not know exactly what a Dawnshard is?

My brain is tired 

[Elegy he/him]

On 5/12/2025 at 3:44 AM, Second Chances said:

Does anyone have the page that Holds "you will be warm again" quote from Rhythm of War is from?

I don't have the exact page count, but it's in ROW chapter 80 (The Dog and the Dragon). I think towards the end.

[LordRygon]

Just finished read Book 5. Took a while since I started about a year ago by rereading the previous 4 books for the sake of continuity. And wow, lots of ups and downs. It felt epic in a way that few series ever live up to. I can't wait for the second arc. Here are my thoughts.

The good:

1. Like in many of his Cosmere books, Sanderson did his magic trick in the end where the good guys somehow pull off a victory, not because of dumb luck, but by something that was entirely predictable if you'd been paying attention. I think of it like a magic trip because its fun to be tricked and discover something obvious youd missed. But it also feel satisfying when you can see the trick coming from a mile away, but get to watch along with the main characters who have no idea what's going to happen.

For example, when Maya went off for help to get help for Adolin, I also incorrectly thought she would get more spren, like thr honorspren, to bind. In hindsight it made a lot of sense that she would find other forgotten spren. I shared Adolin's excitement when he realized what she had actually done.

On the other hand, I could see Dalinar's betrayal of oaths coming from a mile away, with a parallel to solution at the end of the classic 80's movie, WarGames. But it was still fun to watch Dalinar go through the steps until he reached the same conclusion.

2. Adolin's story arc. Just fantastic epic hero action from beginning to end. Almost a little too perfect at times, but then Sanderson actually forces him to fight with one leg, so I guess it's fair. He still hasn't suffered any real consequences for murdering Sadeas though? I was hoping to see something about that situation wrapping up, but it never happened, and maybe it never will. Jasnah was at least forced to acknowledge her history of casual murder, so that was nice.

3. Development of Sigzil as a character. He needed some experience as a leader, and he got that.

The less good:

1. As others have noted, the insertion of more modern prose really ruined the immersion at times. Phrases like "kick his ***" or Lift's use of "sh*t" felt out of place to me. The word therapist wasn't as big of a deal, at least Wit introduced it. But I would have been fine if they'd stuck to something more in-theme like "mind healing" or similar.

2. I don't understand how Odium was allowed to use his power to just wipe out Kharbranth. This was a monumental use of power, and was done in a casual way. Up to that point, the Odium couldn't just murder people directly, so why could make a tsunami that would wipe out a city? He did it with the Intent of killing his enemies.

Oh and he could instantaneously save his family and friends from the destruction. That seems really convenient and powerful. And if he could do that at any time, why didn't he just pull his family into the Spiritual Realm when Cultivation's agents attacked?

And if he was allowed to just shift the planets tectonic plates to create a tsunami, why didn't he just make an earthquake to bring down Urithiru, or destroy Azimir's defenses? I felt like this was a loose thread that wasn't sufficiently explained.

3. Speaking of which, I had a really hard time following what the gods were allowed to do, couldn't do, or could do with consequences. I know Wit brought it up a lot, which I suspect was Sanderson'd method for explaining these rules to the reader. But the problem with that is we've gotten use to Wit being opaque and deliberately leaving out explanations with his language. Plus, we learn that he has other motives that don't necessarily align with the people of Roshar. So why should we trust anything he says to them?

And last point on this, how was Odium allowed to transport inside Urithiru and just vaporize Wit? Besides just ignoring the protections in Urithiru, wasn't Wit still protected from Odium by the contract? Just because Dalinar broke his part of thr agreement, the Wit part was kind of separate, right? Also, it seems very un-Taravangian to just kill someone who could be a very valuable tool, like Wit. Even if the Powers wanted to do it very badly you'd think he'd at least try to fight the urge?

[king of nowhere]

10 hours ago, LordRygon said:

 Jasnah was at least forced to acknowledge her history of casual murder, so that was nice.

 

Jasnah is a very interesting case; I believe she was implicitly working under a mild version of omniscent morality license: she could make decisions for others, she could take agency from others, she could be an exception to the rules, because she is so much smarter than anyone else, that she knows better. 

And she really is so much smarter than anyone else, and everyone can see it, that everyone just went along.

Still, everything that Jasnah has done, taravangian has done 100 times worse, so if I was Fen I'd have never taken his deal.

Quote

 

2. I don't understand how Odium was allowed to use his power to just wipe out Kharbranth. This was a monumental use of power, and was done in a casual way. Up to that point, the Odium couldn't just murder people directly, so why could make a tsunami that would wipe out a city? He did it with the Intent of killing his enemies.

Oh and he could instantaneously save his family and friends from the destruction. That seems really convenient and powerful. And if he could do that at any time, why didn't he just pull his family into the Spiritual Realm when Cultivation's agents attacked?

And if he was allowed to just shift the planets tectonic plates to create a tsunami, why didn't he just make an earthquake to bring down Urithiru, or destroy Azimir's defenses? I felt like this was a loose thread that wasn't sufficiently explained.

 

karbranth gave itself to taravagian, so he was allowed. just like odium could interfere directly with his people. 

but yes, then he could have just saved his family regardless. besides, the agents of cultivation were also taken in the blast, and they were not his, so nothing should stop T from throwing tsunamis at other coastal cities...
 

Quote

 

3. Speaking of which, I had a really hard time following what the gods were allowed to do, couldn't do, or could do with consequences. I know Wit brought it up a lot, which I suspect was Sanderson'd method for explaining these rules to the reader. But the problem with that is we've gotten use to Wit being opaque and deliberately leaving out explanations with his language. Plus, we learn that he has other motives that don't necessarily align with the people of Roshar. So why should we trust anything he says to them?

And last point on this, how was Odium allowed to transport inside Urithiru and just vaporize Wit? Besides just ignoring the protections in Urithiru, wasn't Wit still protected from Odium by the contract? Just because Dalinar broke his part of thr agreement, the Wit part was kind of separate, right? Also, it seems very un-Taravangian to just kill someone who could be a very valuable tool, like Wit. Even if the Powers wanted to do it very badly you'd think he'd at least try to fight the urge?

 

in general, when it comes to shards, the magic becomes a lot softer than normal sanderson. 

and this is a problem, because the books are hard magic and use magic that the reader understands to drive the plot. I do think sanderson wrote himself in a corner when he introduced too many godlike powers, and "their covenant stops them from interfering directly" can only carry you so much.

 

[LordRygon]

22 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

Jasnah is a very interesting case; I believe she was implicitly working under a mild version of omniscent morality license: she could make decisions for others, she could take agency from others, she could be an exception to the rules, because she is so much smarter than anyone else, that she knows better. 

And she really is so much smarter than anyone else, and everyone can see it, that everyone just went along.

Still, everything that Jasnah has done, taravangian has done 100 times worse, so if I was Fen I'd have never taken his deal.

karbranth gave itself to taravagian, so he was allowed. just like odium could interfere directly with his people. 

but yes, then he could have just saved his family regardless. besides, the agents of cultivation were also taken in the blast, and they were not his, so nothing should stop T from throwing tsunamis at other coastal cities...
 

in general, when it comes to shards, the magic becomes a lot softer than normal sanderson. 

and this is a problem, because the books are hard magic and use magic that the reader understands to drive the plot. I do think sanderson wrote himself in a corner when he introduced too many godlike powers, and "their covenant stops them from interfering directly" can only carry you so much.

 

Agree. The main part of Taravangian's argument was that he could never break the contract because he was a god. Why didn't Jasnah or Fen question that assumption? He was their only source for that assumption, correct? And of course we find out later that they could in fact break contracts, albeit with consequences. I can accept Fen taking the deal though because she was more driven by emotion than logic, and Jasnah ended up having a mid-life crisis in the middle of negotiations. I think most people wouldn't have taken that deal though.

On the soft magic, I hope it doesn't create too many plot holes later in the series where I presume we'll have more gods vs gods situations.

 

[Kadollan]

On 12/10/2024 at 9:44 AM, SchrödingerSpren said:

I am looking forward to the next five books all being centered on Lift, the only Radiant who has consistent access to her powers in the true desolation.

I kow I'm necroposting, but I just realized Lift has just become a true RPG protagonist character. The ability to heal themselves by eating food