Kelsier VS. Taravangian

Going_North_cal · December 4, 2024

So here's a thought I just had.

In Secret History, when Leras dies, Kelsier (as a Cognitive Shadow) Ascends to Preservation. However, the power doesn't... suffuse/infuse with him as a Shard normally would during a new Ascension. The Coppermind says it's because he wasn't intended to take it. In the story itself, it states:

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- Preservations power resisted him still. It shied away from his murderous intent.

- He could see himself now, in the spiritual Realm- and those black lines were still there, tying him to Ruin. The power he held didn't like didn't like that at all.

However, in Rhythm of War, when Taravangian ascends, it's also somebody who was never intended to take it. Who intended who to take what Shards is obviously impossible to quantify or qualify, but I can imagine that it was at the very least unexpected.

But with Taravangian, he easily Ascends, taking up the mantle of Odium much easier than Kelsier did. The Coppermind, using RoW as a reference point, cites that it's because it was one of his less intelligent/more emotional days. This communicated to the Shard that this new Vessel had the proper Intent to Ascend. Even still, Taravangian would have had that Connection to the Nightwatcher and to Cultivation, right? Would that have not gotten in his way, that seeming disconnect or separation from the Passion that allowed him to Ascend?

This is mostly word vomit, I think I mostly understand the mechanics of what Taravangian Ascended fully, and Kelsier did not, but I'm curious about other peoples views on this.

JustQuestin2004 · December 5, 2024

1 hour ago, Medium said:

This is mostly word vomit, I think I mostly understand the mechanics of what Taravangian Ascended fully, and Kelsier did not, but I'm curious about other peoples views on this.

It's exactly what it is on the tin, you have to be in line with a Shards Intent in order to pick it up, if you aren't then your out of luck unless you cheat like Kel did with the Connection Juice.

A coward probably couldn't pick up Valor.

An anarchist probably couldn't pick up Dominion.

And someone with no appreciation for artistry whatsoever couldn't possibly pick up Virtuosity.

Treamayne · December 5, 2024

2 hours ago, Medium said:

However, in Rhythm of War, when Taravangian ascends, it's also somebody who was never intended to take it.

Actually, it's the opposite. The whole point of Cultivation's "gift" was to have a vessel that would have a day of "supreme emotionality" making him the perfect vessel for Odium, as long as Rayse could be killed. RoW Ch 113:

Spoiler

Taravangian awoke late in the day. He barely remembered falling asleep. He barely … could …

Could barely … think.

He was stupid. Stupider than he’d ever been before.

That made him weep. Stupid weeping. He cried and cried, overwhelmed by emotion and shamespren. A sense of failure. Of anger at himself. He lay there until hunger drove him to stand.

His thoughts were like crem. Thick. Slow. He stumbled down to the window, where they had left his basket of food. Trembling, he clutched it, weeping at his hunger. It seemed so strong.

That day was the opposite of the day he wrote the Diagram - as far left on the graph Adrotagia made to chart frequency vs intelligence as his Diagram day was to the right of that graph.

Conversely, Kelsier not only had too much Connection to Ruin to become a proper vessel, the Shard already had a partial Connection to Vin through her burning mists twice - so the Shard had a competing Connection and the Vessel had a different competing Connection. Two strikes meant he could hold it temporarily (by cheating with the Orb), but not do much with it.

Going_North_cal · December 5, 2024

2 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Actually, it's the opposite. The whole point of Cultivation's "gift" was to have a vessel that would have a day of "supreme emotionality" making him the perfect vessel for Odium, as long as Rayse could be killed.

This is new information to me; despite my many reads of both Stormlight and other cosmere novels, I always have failed to read between the lines. And yet somehow, when it's revealed to me, it always makes sense. It also makes click in my head the reasons that Koravellium was so chatty/tutor-y right after Taravangians Ascension.

1 hour ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

A coward probably couldn't pick up Valor.

An anarchist probably couldn't pick up Dominion.

And someone with no appreciation for artistry whatsoever couldn't possibly pick up Virtuosity.

Every time I think I understand something... and then it turns on my head. Of course this makes sense, and of course I didn't see it before lol.

I wonder, though:

What if Taravangian had been having an intelligent day? Unlikely as it is, what with the smart days dwindling in frequency as time went on. Would the memory of his more emotional moments have been enough? Or is Ascension more spur-of-the-moment thing?

For example: A coward couldn't pick up Valor. But could he if he had suddenly had a powerful bout of confidence brought on by a loved one saying something positive?

An anarchist couldn't pick up Dominion. But humans are constantly changing (assuming the new Vessel is human), could they Ascend if they suddenly realized the power that was in their grasp?

Someone who didn't appreciate or understand art, could they pick up Virtuosity if they suddenly understood a certain piece of art, if they suddenly realized the power behind creativity?

I imagine yes, because it's making that Connection with something similar to the Shards Intent.

Treamayne · December 5, 2024

15 minutes ago, Medium said:

What if Taravangian had been having an intelligent day? Unlikely as it is, what with the smart days dwindling in frequency as time went on.

With no discrete data, my personal Interpretation is that as long as he was on the left side of the 50/50 balance he could have taken up the Shard. The difficulty doing so would have increased the closer to IQ Positive/EQ Negative he was on the spectrum.

Basically, it was this easy because it was such an EQ day - which is likely why Sja Anat chose that day to send her children and draw Odium's attention.

alder24 · December 5, 2024

13 hours ago, Medium said:

In Secret History, when Leras dies, Kelsier (as a Cognitive Shadow) Ascends to Preservation. However, the power doesn't... suffuse/infuse with him as a Shard normally would during a new Ascension. The Coppermind says it's because he wasn't intended to take it. In the story itself, it states:

It's not about intention and Intent, it's about Connection and understanding of the nature of the Shard. Kelsier lacked proper Connection to Preservation, it was trivial compared to his Connection to Ruin and that's why he needed Ire's orb filled with Connection to Ascend in the first place. Secondly he also lacked proper understanding of what is the Shard of Preservation and what it represents - the very first thing he tried to do was to attack Ruin, which was against Preservation's Intent and its nature and that's why it resisted him so much throughout his time as a Vessel. Plus, he was a Cognitive Shadow, merely a memory without a valid Connection to the Physical Realm which made him impotent as the Vessel.

Leras told Kelsier that Preservation was not intended for him because in his plan it was Vin who was meant to Ascend, not Kelsier. But yes, the power of Preservation had already chosen Vin as its new Vessel so that mattered as well. Yes, the Shard, the power itself, chooses its new Vessel. Preservation's power chose Vin, Odium's power chose Taravangian because of his passions. He was perfect for Odium in the power's mind. Kelsier stepped up and took power that didn't want him as its Vessel and that was problematic.

Sazed on the other hand had both equally strong Connections to Ruin and Preservation and most importantly, he understood the nature of both Shards and the need for their existence. Something that Kelsier didn't have.

In the day of Taravangian's Ascension he didn't just understand emotions, he was them. He was the Passion, he felt every single emotion and was overwhelmed by them, he understood them - that's why he was perfect for Odium. Plus over years he developed a valid Connection to Odium, which together with his understanding of the nature of the Shard, allowed him to fully Ascend and control Odium.

SH ch 6-4:

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“Like hell he will,” Kelsier said, dropping his pack. He reached inside, gripping the glowing orb filled with liquid.
It’s not for you, Kelsier, Preservation said. It’s not yours. It belongs to another.
[...]
Then, full of borrowed light, Kelsier seized the threads spinning around him and Pulled. The power resisted. He didn’t know why—he had only a rudimentary understanding of what he was doing. Why did the power attune to some people and not others?
[...]
Kelsier’s grin widened, and he imagined—with delight—the sensation of ripping apart this monster that had killed Preservation. This useless, outdated waste of energy. Crushing it would be so satisfying. He willed his boundless power to attack.
And nothing happened.
Preservation’s power resisted him still. It shied away from his murderous intent, and push though he would, he couldn’t make it hurt Ruin.
His enemy vibrated, quivering, and the shaking became a sound like laughter. The churning dark mists recovered, transforming back into the image of a deific man stretching through the sky. “Oh, Kelsier!” Ruin cried. “You think I mind what you have done? Why, I’d have chosen for you to take the power! It’s perfect! You’re merely an aspect of me, after all.”
Kelsier gritted his teeth, then stretched forth fingers made of rushing wind, as if to grab Ruin and throttle him.
The creature merely laughed louder. “You can barely control it,” Ruin said. “Even assuming it could harm me, you couldn’t accomplish such a task. Look at you, Kelsier! You haven’t form or shape. You’re not alive, you’re an idea. A memory of a man holding the power will never be as potent as a real one with ties to all three Realms

SH ch 6-8:

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“How?” he whispered. “How is he Connected to them both, so evenly? Why not just Preservation?”
“He has changed, this last year,” Elend said. “Ruin is more than death and destruction. It is peace with these things.”

RoW ch 114:

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Passion. Hatred. Today, Taravangian was only passion. Hatred, fear, anger, shame, awe. Bravery. The power loved these things, and it surged around him, enveloping him.
His soul vibrated.
Take me, the power pled, speaking not in words, but in emotion. You are perfect. I am yours.
Taravangian hesitated briefly, then thrust his hands into the well of power.
And Ascended to godhood, becoming Odium.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Seventy-Nine

The Mists Chose Someone

There's a lot more going on behind the scenes than even the author of these epigraphs knows. Reasons why Vin was chosen, and why the power of Preservation needed a new mind to control it.

The author is right in that Preservation did need someone to control its power, and it did seek for a host in which to invest itself. It began this search with what mind it had left about sixteen years before the return of the power to the Well of Ascension, just as it began a search for a new host before the return of the power the previous time.

Unfortunately, just as Ruin took control and manipulated Alendi, he took control and manipulated Vin.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (May 13, 2010)

scientificmotif · December 5, 2024

10 hours ago, Treamayne said:

With no discrete data, my personal Interpretation is that as long as he was on the left side of the 50/50 balance he could have taken up the Shard. The difficulty doing so would have increased the closer to IQ Positive/EQ Negative he was on the spectrum.

Basically, it was this easy because it was such an EQ day - which is likely why Sja Anat chose that day to send her children and draw Odium's attention.

Mostly agree. In theory, T's other emotions increase with his Odium-associated emotions, so he shouldn't really be an especially good vessel for Odium (In the sense that he isn't as compatible). Obviously, reading the book, T is pretty obviously the perfect Vessel for Odium, so my logic must be wrong, and it describes how Odium "loves" his passion. I know that Rayse described Odium as Passion, but when T picks up the Shard, he is immediately influenced to destroy and hate, so it just feels strange to me.

I also want to point out that Ati was a terrible match for the Shard Ruin, and yet he was able to pick it up. We just don't understand Ascension enough yet.

teknopathetic · December 5, 2024

4 hours ago, scientificmotif said:

I also want to point out that Ati was a terrible match for the Shard Ruin, and yet he was able to pick it up. We just don't understand Ascension enough yet.

I imagine that the 16 Shards were not fully "awake" right after the shattering. It probably took a bit for the shards to wake-up after they first bonded a vessel. Once things settled, more connection to the intent would be needed to change vessels. Or possibly, seeing as the 16 Vessels were connected to Adonalsium, that let them skip over the intent connection requirement. Or the dawnshards helped? There's a lot there to work with.

Edited December 5, 2024 by teknopathetic

scientificmotif · December 5, 2024

1 hour ago, teknopathetic said:

I imagine that the 16 Shards were not fully "awake" right after the shattering. It probably took a bit for the shards to wake-up after they first bonded a vessel. Once things settled, more connection to the intent would be needed to change vessels. Or possibly, seeing as the 16 Vessels were connected to Adonalsium, that let them skip over the intent connection requirement. Or the dawnshards helped? There's a lot there to work with.

I was just pointing out one of many examples of how we don't have a solid understanding of Ascension and Shards. I wasn't trying to present it as a silver bullet proving anyone can take up any Shard.

I can provide another few examples:

What's stopping world hoppers from using a connection sphere thing and taking up the Dor?

Why are Cognitive Shadows so poorly equipped to control Shards?

Why are you able to take up a Shard from the previous Vessel's corpse in the first place?

Etc.

(BTW, I wonder if someone was there where Leras's corpse appeared whether or not they could have taken up Preservation in the same way that Sazed took up Preservation and Ruin. I assume so...)

Edited December 5, 2024 by scientificmotif
missing period

+Oltux72 · December 5, 2024

2 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

I imagine that the 16 Shards were not fully "awake" right after the shattering. It probably took a bit for the shards to wake-up after they first bonded a vessel.

Those people presumably still wielded the dawnshards. Hence all bets are off.

Going_North_cal · December 5, 2024

1 hour ago, scientificmotif said:

What's stopping world hoppers from using a connection sphere thing and taking up the Dor?

Didn't Shai do this with a soulstamp in TLM?

scientificmotif · December 5, 2024

2 hours ago, Medium said:

Didn't Shai do this with a soulstamp in TLM?

Not just "Dor" but the Dor. As in the whole thing.

Treamayne · December 5, 2024

9 hours ago, scientificmotif said:

I also want to point out that Ati was a terrible match for the Shard Ruin,

Ati was not a terrible match for Ruin. Ruin is not Evil - so Ati being a "good person" is not a factor. Ati took up Ruin, presumably, because he was one of the few who understood it enough to control and channel the Shard less destructively - focusing on Entropy (than other possible paths that Ruin could take). WoBs:

Spoiler

Quote

Alvaro Lopez

Why Odium is stronger and worst evil than Ruin?

Brandon Sanderson

One reason is that Ruin had a person in control of it who, for many years, fought against the impulse to destroy--and in the end, channeled it toward entropy and decay, necessary elements of the universe. Odium represents something else entirely.
General Twitter 2018 (June 6, 2018)

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Karthikeyan Eswaran

For a person to ascend as a [Vessel], is it enough to have a Connection with the Shard, or does their general intent/mindset have to align with the Intent of the Shard (like Rayse and Odium have both shown similar mindsets)? If the intent needs to be similar, how did Ati, who was described as a kind person, pick up a Shard like Ruin? And if the intent doesn't need to be similar, how did the people at the Shattering manage to ascend, as the Shards had just been created? Did they have to go through some process to create a Connection? Or did they all somehow already have a Connection with Adonalsium (and thus with all the Shards) which made it easier to Ascend?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, there did need to be some Connection created--there was a lot going on with this. But it is possible for intents to not align and someone to take a Shard. It's way easier if intents do align, but humans don't tend to align 100% to any specific intent.
Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 5, 2018)

3 minutes ago, scientificmotif said:

4 hours ago, scientificmotif said:

What's stopping world hoppers from using a connection sphere thing and taking up the Dor?

Not just "Dor" but the Dor. As in the whole thing.

Because the Dor is in the Cognitive Realm - that was Odium's whole point of doing what he did - to prevent the power from Seeking a Vessel or gaining Sapience. Now, if they could find a way to restore the Dor to the Spiritual Realm. . .

Spoiler

Quote

<Edited for Length and Relevance>

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, it would work the same way.

The only magic that is location-dependent-- The ones who aren't interested in this, just hum to yourself, okay? *laughter* You don't need to know any of this stuff to enjoy the books, okay? I write them so that you could just-- each series can be read independently, and enjoyed. There is behind the scenes stuff, and if you want to dig, it goes pretty deep.

So on Sel, we have AonDor. AonDor is based on the fact that the Dor, which is an amalgamation of Dominion and Devotion, has been pressed together and stuffed into the Cognitive Realm by Odium who didn't want it to gain sentience, as Investiture will do if it is left alone. It will either seek someone to be its Vessel or it will gain sentience. He pressed it in there; he pressed it together, which creates the violent reaction, because those two intents are opposed. And that is the foundation of the magic. Because it's stuck in the Cognitive Realm rather than the Spiritual Realm (the Spiritual Realm is location-independent; Cognitive Realm is location-dependent), it makes the magic on Sel only work in close proximity to what is keyed through there to the location they're keyed to. This has to do with Identity and Connection. Mostly Connection. So that means you can't do AonDor on another planet, but you can do other magics works anywhere, because they're drawing the magics specifically through either the place, or they're end-neutral, like Breath is, and you don't need any extra power.
Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

Not to mention that the Ire Connection Orb was made of Dor, so I would not expect to be able to use Dor to hack Dor.

scientificmotif · December 5, 2024

28 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Ati was not a terrible match for Ruin. Ruin is not Evil - so Ati being a "good person" is not a factor. Ati took up Ruin, presumably, because he was one of the few who understood it enough to control and channel the Shard less destructively - focusing on Entropy (than other possible paths that Ruin could take). WoBs:

Reveal hidden contents

Because the Dor is in the Cognitive Realm - that was Odium's whole point of doing what he did - to prevent the power from Seeking a Vessel or gaining Sapience. Now, if they could find a way to restore the Dor to the Spiritual Realm. . .

Hide contents

Not to mention that the Ire Connection Orb was made of Dor, so I would not expect to be able to use Dor to hack Dor.

1. If Ati wanted to channel the Shard less destructively, then he's rather against the Shard's Intent. I meant "bad vessel" as someone who would have lots of trouble picking the Shard up.

2. Just because the power isn't seeking a Vessel doesn't mean it can't be picked up? I mean, Kell was definitely not sought out by Preservation. How would the Dor being in the Cognitive Realm stop them?

3. Why not? You can use Lerasium (Preservation's essence) to increase your Connection to Preservation's Investiture. Why couldn't the Dor increase your Connection to the Dor?

Treamayne · December 6, 2024

15 minutes ago, scientificmotif said:

1. If Ati wanted to channel the Shard less destructively, then he's rather against the Shard's Intent. I meant "bad vessel" as someone who would have lots of trouble picking the Shard up.

2. Just because the power isn't seeking a Vessel doesn't mean it can't be picked up? I mean, Kell was definitely not sought out by Preservation. How would the Dor being in the Cognitive Realm stop them?

3. Why not? You can use Lerasium (Preservation's essence) to increase your Connection to Preservation's Investiture. Why couldn't the Dor increase your Connection to the Dor?

We just do not have these answers - but based on available evidence:

He was not against the Shard's intent - he just was able to focus that intent.
Because the Dor no longer has a SR connection - that was the whole point.
- At least, there are no indications of any level of Investiture (Shard, Splinter, Avatar) having a Vessel without the Power being in the SR first.
- From the Cognitive Realm bonds become possible, but that's not the same as a Vessel either.
It's not just about Connection.
- The Orb Worked because an Elantrian on Scadrial would need Connection to take up the Shard. (it worked for Kelsier, because he also needed Connection) That's not the missing component for the Dor.
- I believe part of the equation is Intent. What is the Dor's actual Intent now that it is a forced mixture of Devotion and Dominion?

I realize you really really want a Vessel for the Dor, but I doubt it can happen until the Dor returns to the SR (at least partially) - though Brandon has said that there are some Worldhopper Realmaticians who would define the Land's Connection to the Dor as a version of being a Vessel.

Spoiler

Questioner

Would it be possible for an inanimate object that was Invested to the point of sentience Ascend to Shardhood?

Brandon Sanderson

To become a Vessel of Adonalsium, or become a Shard through...? This is a tricky question because the power left alone will become sapient. And at that point, the distinction between being a Shard and a Vessel is fine but still extant. And I would say the power could not become a Vessel in the same way because it's defined as something different. But it is possible for the power to be left alone and to gain sapience on its own.

Questioner

The example we were thinking of was Sel. It was stated in Arcanum that the landscape itself was Invested to the point of... Could the planet of Sel be the Vessel of Devotion?

Brandon Sanderson

At this point, it's playing semantics, and I would say no. But there are people in-cosmere that would argue that the semantic distinction is irrelevant and that it is the same.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

Hope that helps

Going_North_cal · December 6, 2024

52 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I believe part of the equation is Intent. What is the Dor's actual Intent now that it is a forced mixture of Devotion and Dominion?

Much like Ruin and Preservation became Harmony, I feel like Devotion and Dominion would become something like Monarchy or Sovereignty. Perhaps something fancier like Fiducia.

I'm curious if Rysn could do something like this using the Change Dawnshard... Use it somehow to give the Dor back it's connection to the SR.

scientificmotif · December 6, 2024

43 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

We just do not have these answers - but based on available evidence:

He was not against the Shard's intent - he just was able to focus that intent.

Because the Dor no longer has a SR connection - that was the whole point.

At least, there are no indications of any level of Investiture (Shard, Splinter, Avatar) having a Vessel without the Power being in the SR first.

From the Cognitive Realm bonds become possible, but that's not the same as a Vessel either.

It's not just about Connection.

The Orb Worked because an Elantrian on Scadrial would need Connection to take up the Shard. (it worked for Kelsier, because he also needed Connection) That's not the missing component for the Dor.

I believe part of the equation is Intent. What is the Dor's actual Intent now that it is a forced mixture of Devotion and Dominion?

I realize you really really want a Vessel for the Dor, but I doubt it can happen until the Dor returns to the SR (at least partially) - though Brandon has said that there are some Worldhopper Realmaticians who would define the Land's Connection to the Dor as a version of being a Vessel.

Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Would it be possible for an inanimate object that was Invested to the point of sentience Ascend to Shardhood?

Brandon Sanderson

To become a Vessel of Adonalsium, or become a Shard through...? This is a tricky question because the power left alone will become sapient. And at that point, the distinction between being a Shard and a Vessel is fine but still extant. And I would say the power could not become a Vessel in the same way because it's defined as something different. But it is possible for the power to be left alone and to gain sapience on its own.

Questioner

The example we were thinking of was Sel. It was stated in Arcanum that the landscape itself was Invested to the point of... Could the planet of Sel be the Vessel of Devotion?

Brandon Sanderson

At this point, it's playing semantics, and I would say no. But there are people in-cosmere that would argue that the semantic distinction is irrelevant and that it is the same.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

Hope that helps

EXACTLY. I wasn't really looking for answers for the questions. I was just pointing out that full Shard mechanics are not fully understood.

I don't particularly want the Dor to have a vessel. It's just that the power of not one but two godlike beings that can fling around planets like ping-pong balls and potentially create them is just a little concerning and potentially exploitable. It just has implications for the Cosmere at large, that's all.

And about Ati... I'm like 99% sure that somewhere in Secret History Leras just straight up stated that Ati wasn't a good match for Ruin. I should get my own copies of the books... :<

Treamayne · December 6, 2024

29 minutes ago, scientificmotif said:

EXACTLY. I wasn't really looking for answers for the questions. I was just pointing out that full Shard mechanics are not fully understood.

We can agree on that.

30 minutes ago, scientificmotif said:

I don't particularly want the Dor to have a vessel. It's just that the power of not one but two godlike beings that can fling around planets like ping-pong balls and potentially create them is just a little concerning and potentially exploitable. It just has implications for the Cosmere at large, that's all.

True. Brandon has already mentioned the Time Dilation that Sel experiences, and how difficult it is to traverse Sel's Shadesmar.

Odium also learned from this mistake, which is why he found a "better way" to deal with Honor.

Spoiler

Quote

Jeremy

If vast amounts of Investiture can distort time in a similar manner as a black hole, [...] does that include Shards? Would time dilation be greater on Roshar than on Nalthis?

Brandon Sanderson

No, because the Shard is contained almost entirely in the Spiritual Realm. In the Spiritual Realm, time and distance have no meaning. So, what this means is: Large piles of Investiture that somehow make it into the Cognitive Realm or the Physical Realm are going to cause time dilation, but the Spiritual Realm—where it belongs—it's not going to do that.

That's gonna make some exclamation points raise above the heads of some people.
The Dusty Wheel Show (June 17, 2021)

Quote

Questioner

Is all the worlds in the Cosmere on a linear timeline?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, with an asterisk. There is time dilation. If you get too close to large amounts of matter or large amounts of Investiture, you will have time dilation.
Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

Quote

Questioner

Does the dead body of a Shard pull at time and space, thus causing time to pass slower in that place of the cosmere, almost like a black hole?

Brandon Sanderson

It could go either way in the Cosmere, depending. But the answer is yes. A large amount, like a deific amount of Investiture will... any amount of Investiture will cause a bit of time dilation, but the amount you're getting from even a Shardpool is not enough to be noticeable. I mean, it is, you can notice it even on our planet if you take a jet that goes fast enough, so it is noticeable but not relevantly noticeable. We're talking about a slippage of a day or so in a year even off of a Shardpool (don't canonize me on that one, I don't have the actual numbers). But that's what we're talking about. There are are chunks of Investiture of deific nature that can cause amounts of time dilation that would be virtually impossible in our universe, without you becoming one with a black hole. There's a story I want to tell, and I don't know if I'll ever get around to telling it, about an entire society that rises and falls in several seconds of time dilation to everyone else. I want to be able to tell stories like that, and you couldn't do that in our universe, but that's part of the reason we have the Cosmere!
YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

Quote

Questioner

Exactly how turbulent is the Cognitive Realm around Sel? Khriss seems to think it's rather difficult [to travel] but how difficult would it be for Hoid to get through?

Brandon Sanderson

How difficult would it be to get through to Sel, how difficult would it be for Hoid. I would say straining his resources and capacity. It is difficult for him. So take that as you will. But it is worth his effort and he has done it numerous times.
JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)

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Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Odium locked the Selish Shards in the Cognitive Realm to keep them from achieving sentience or someone Ascending.
Footnote: taken from General Q&A
Arcanum Unbounded Hoboken signing (Dec. 3, 2016)

Quote

Argent

...The reason Odium dealt with the Selish Shards in the way that he did, whether that was primarily because he was inexperienced in Splintering and so he knew that he wanted nobody to take the Shards--

Brandon Sanderson

There were better ways he could have done what he did.

Argent

And he then learned at least a little bit better?

Brandon Sanderson

He learned at least a little bit better.
JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018)

20 minutes ago, scientificmotif said:

And about Ati... I'm like 99% sure that somewhere in Secret History Leras just straight up stated that Ati wasn't a good match for Ruin.

If so, I cannot find that. Fuzz mentions Ati three times total, and none of them match that descritption. Fuzz never uses the word Vessel either (Ruin, Khriss, Drifter, and the Ire do). You may be thinking of The Letter where Hoid laments how much Ati was subsummed by Ruin of the millennia, but even that would not indicate he was a bad choice of Vessel (especially if a different Vessel would have had less control earlier).

M:SH

Spoiler

1-2:

Quote

“Here?” The Lord Ruler laughed. “With an impotent mouse and a half-blooded rat? Please.”

He closed his eyes, then he stretched toward that point that defied geometry. He faded, then finally vanished.

Kelsier gaped. “He left?”

“To the Somewhere Else,” Fuzz said, sitting down. “I should not have been so hopeful. Everything passes, nothing is eternal. That is what Ati always claimed. . . .”

“He didn’t have to leave,” Kelsier said. “He could have remained. Could have survived!”

“I told you, by this point rational people want to move on.” Fuzz vanished.

2-1:

Quote

“Your . . . face, Fuzz . . .”

“Ati thinks to finish me,” Fuzz said. “Indeed, his knife was placed long ago. I’m already dead.” He smiled again, a gruesome expression, then vanished.

3-1:

Quote

He knew that vastness. Ruin was indeed watching.

“He thinks you’re insignificant,” Preservation said. “I think he finds you amusing—the soul of Ati that is still in there somewhere would laugh at this.”

“He has a soul?”

Preservation didn’t respond.

Hope that helps

therunner · December 6, 2024

13 hours ago, scientificmotif said:

I was just pointing out one of many examples of how we don't have a solid understanding of Ascension and Shards. I wasn't trying to present it as a silver bullet proving anyone can take up any Shard.

I can provide another few examples:

We have some of these answers, or at least directions:

Quote

What's stopping world hoppers from using a connection sphere thing and taking up the Dor?

The Dor is not a proper Shard, it has been splintered.
Also, it resides in Cognitive realm and not Spiritual Realm like all the other Shards, which certainly complicates matters.

Quote

Why are Cognitive Shadows so poorly equipped to control Shards?

They lack Connection to Physical Realm, so they cannot fully leverage the power (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/484/#e15824).
Kelsier was also poorly suited to Preservation, hence Shard was even less controllable for him (we see something similar with Rayse and Odium throughout RoW).

Quote

Why are you able to take up a Shard from the previous Vessel's corpse in the first place?

Not sure what you mean exactly.

If you mean why Taravangian was able to pickup Odium from Rayse after killing him, suddenly there was a lot of Connection which were previously attached to Rayse which were now 'free'. Taravangian was the nearest person and he was uniquely suited to attract the Shard, hence he picked it up.

If Taravangian was in his 'Diagram-day' mode, I don't think he would have picked it up, since he would not be suitable.

alder24 · December 6, 2024

17 hours ago, scientificmotif said:

I was just pointing out one of many examples of how we don't have a solid understanding of Ascension and Shards. I wasn't trying to present it as a silver bullet proving anyone can take up any Shard.

23 hours ago, scientificmotif said:

I also want to point out that Ati was a terrible match for the Shard Ruin, and yet he was able to pick it up. We just don't understand Ascension enough yet.

It was way easier to Ascend for the 16 right after the Shattering and they didn't have to match intents of Shards perfectly, but they still couldn't have taken up any Shard they wanted to. Things were a bit different back then. Ati was chosen as the Vessel of Ruin not because he matched it well, but because they thought he would be good at controlling it and reducing its destructive potential. Even now, you don't have to perfectly match the intent to Ascend, but it's much harder without it.

Spoiler

Karthikeyan Eswaran

For a person to ascend as a [Vessel], is it enough to have a Connection with the Shard, or does their general intent/mindset have to align with the Intent of the Shard (like Rayse and Odium have both shown similar mindsets)? If the intent needs to be similar, how did Ati, who was described as a kind person, pick up a Shard like Ruin? And if the intent doesn't need to be similar, how did the people at the Shattering manage to ascend, as the Shards had just been created? Did they have to go through some process to create a Connection? Or did they all somehow already have a Connection with Adonalsium (and thus with all the Shards) which made it easier to Ascend?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, there did need to be some Connection created--there was a lot going on with this. But it is possible for intents to not align and someone to take a Shard. It's way easier if intents do align, but humans don't tend to align 100% to any specific intent.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 5, 2018)

Spoiler

senjox

We've seen in both Secret History and RoW that a Shard's power has a will of its own and can "reject" a vessel if it's not adequate (like Preservation with Kelsier) and "tempt" if it is (like Odium with Taravangian). Does that mean that the first sixteen that Ascended needed to be fit for their respective shards?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. To an extent, yes. It was a little easier back then, but yes.

*Thinks for a while*

Yes. So, why am I hesitating on this? Not all of the sixteen could've taken any one of the sixteen. So not all the Vessels could take any of the sixteen. But the flexibility of which ones they could've taken, was much greater than you're perhaps anticipating right now. There were certain Shards that they had, they deliberately had a person pick up, that they thought would be a better controller of that Shard, if that makes sense. Rather than picking the person who is the best match. So, there you go.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

17 hours ago, scientificmotif said:

What's stopping world hoppers from using a connection sphere thing and taking up the Dor?

The Dor is Splintered, it's broken and divided and stuck in the Cognitive Realm instead of the Spiritual Realm. It's not one, whole Shard, it's many pieces divided in a place where they shouldn't be at all. Odium specifically did that to Devotion and Dominion to prevent anyone from Ascending to it. If it was as easy as using the Ire sphere, then Ire would have done so instead of searching for a new Shard to claim as their own.

Spoiler

Questioner

So we know that you can't just have someone-- If someone were to do something similar to Hoid, he can't just pop and go "Oh look, I can now do Allomancy or I can now do Surgebinding". What about Breath? If someone could somebody get Breath-- Maybe not *audio obscured* Could they still get the benefits of--

Brandon Sanderson

With the discovery of anti-Investiture in Rhythm of War, would the correct form of anti-Investiture be usable to clear up the mess in the Sel Cognitive Realm. If so, would this completely destroy a splintered Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

*laughs, coughs, and is otherwise stunned* That would not be a good idea. So why would that not be a good idea? So no, this would not clear up the problem. The problem that's going on in the Cognitive Realm in Sel is that a bunch of Investiture that should be in the Spiritual Realm has been packed into the Cognitive Realm instead, through a very weird circumstance of events. If you were to introduce a bunch of anti-Investiture of the right type there, you would just generate an explosion that would be a very bad thing. Matter cannot be created or destroyed, Investiture can't be either, so it's actually changing forms. It's going from Investiture into energy! Which you know, does not leave the system. So the investiture would eventually make its way back around, you can't destroy anything in the Cosmere, just like you can't destroy anything in our universe. But you can make it change forms. And so, what's going on there is just this hope by a certain individual that what has happened there will prevent the power from becoming self-aware.

It's basically Odium being like "alright I just murdered you people, I don't wanna have to come back and do it again". So he's trying to figure out a way to make this happen. As it currently stands (again, these things can change when I write future books), it was partially happenstance that he took advantage of rather than something that he was able to set up very intentionally from the beginning, but he was definitely a part.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

17 hours ago, scientificmotif said:

Why are Cognitive Shadows so poorly equipped to control Shards?

Because they lack the Connection to the Physical Realm and Vessels needs that to properly act in it and control the power of the Shard. Connections to Realms matter in this case.

18 hours ago, scientificmotif said:

Why are you able to take up a Shard from the previous Vessel's corpse in the first place?

You mean why power was present in Vin and Ati's corpses when Sazed Ascended? Connection of course. They were their Vessels, there is a strong Connection to Shards left in those corpses and because the power seeks a mind to control it - it needs someone. The corpse dropped when the Vessels dies isn't the same body that the Vessel had before the Ascension, it's a body recreated out of raw investiture of the Shard and dropped as a leftover behind. It's made out of Shard's raw power. Connections to the power and the Spiritual Realm are fresh in it and that's probably why the power leaks through them.

Spoiler

LewsTherinTelescope

In the Liar of Partinel samples, we see fain life is covered in skullmoss (and iirc seems to have it inside them, from a few mentions of eating fain-touched animals being deadly). If a fain being were to Ascend, would their body retain this skullmoss when they drop (I mean, Leras and Ati seemed to retain their clothes, so it wouldn't surprise me), or would it be killed off by the process?

(Actually, I'm curious about this with microorganisms and such in general with Vessels, but the fain life is what made me think of it.)

Brandon Sanderson

Imagine the body that drops after a Shard dies being the essence being recreated out of energy. It wasn't there all along--it was absorbed into the power, then drops back out as a kind of husk. But it's not literally the same atoms. There has been some strange E=MC2=Investiture shenanigans going on.

LewsTherinTelescope

Interesting. Is this similar to transitioning in and out of the Cognitive through a Perpendicularity?

And does this recreated thing include microorganisms (like the stomach bacteria or something), skullmoss, foot fungus, clothing, etc? Or just the minimum required to count as the body itself? (Leras and Ati tended to appear dressed, as well as Leras having his knife, but them choosing to appear in the Cognitive might not be the same thing as that body.)

Brandon Sanderson

I'll RAFO it here. Good questions as always, though, LTT.

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020)

18 hours ago, scientificmotif said:

(BTW, I wonder if someone was there where Leras's corpse appeared whether or not they could have taken up Preservation in the same way that Sazed took up Preservation and Ruin. I assume so...)

I think not because Kelsier was first to Ascend - he started Ascending as Leras was dying, before he gave up his last breath so to speak. So either Kelsier would already be Preservation, or he would be in the process of Ascending to it when the corpse dropped, which would most likely prevent anyone from Ascending.

13 hours ago, scientificmotif said:

1. If Ati wanted to channel the Shard less destructively, then he's rather against the Shard's Intent.

Shardic intent isn't just about what the name is about, it's much wider and it can be changed, can be focused on different things. Ruin isn't only about destruction, it's about change, death, entropy and all that stuff. Ati's interpretation was not against the Shard's intent, it was a part of it and that's why Ati was successful at channeling Ruin into the force of entropy rather than mindless destruction. The Vessel provides an interpretation for Shardic intent, which can differ between different Vessels.

Spoiler

Chaos

In Dawnshard we learned that Intent and Command are two different things, whereas in Warbreaker Vasher is clearly conflating these two into just saying it's the Command. What's the difference between Intent and Command?

Yes they do. So, the Vessel's mind and how they perceive is going to have a large influence on how things are expressed and I think all of them have some wiggle room. But there are some deterministic things that are also going to push them. You know, holding Ruin, Harmony may not go down the same path that happened to Ati.

Necarion

So Sadeas would express Honor differently than Tanavast?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes he would.

Arcanum Unbounded San Francisco signing (Nov. 30, 2016)

Kelsier VS. Taravangian

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