Penultimate(?) Release Chapters - 33

[the_archduke]

11 minutes ago, alder24 said:

but Adolin too - for all he knows his wife was just killed. And not just his wife, but his father is now lost in the Spiritual Realm instead of being where he’s needed - he may even blame him for her death. I’m not trying to argue for those specific theories, but I am just looking at the seeds that keep growing. Odium can try to exploit both of them. 

 

Strongly disagree.  Lopen didn't report anything to anyone.  How will Adolin even know anything went wrong on Shallan's mission?  Dalinar and Navani are likewise apparently fine.  Adolin is in Azimir and busy.  As far as he knows, his dad is preparing for the contest and his wife is incommunicado on her secret mission.

[The Stick]

6 hours ago, BinarySecond said:

Where did Hoid have 9 shadows?

Seems that Ishar had some influence on Szeth early on.

Kaladin is hanging in there; he shall prevail!

 

Heck! Sleepless all over the tower! What do they want? Which one is it? Is it the Ghostblood member?

Sorry, I misread the shadow bit, it was just pointing the wrong way.

[coolsnow7]

8 hours ago, Ninth of the Night said:

Speaking of which, I think Hoid confirmed that Lift is a Dawnshard. What else could cause her to be so highly Invested?

I just want to point out that this is always wrong. Brandon has another 6 books of Stormlight alone to reveal new Cosmeric mechanics. We’re never in a position to say “x is confirmed by process of elimination.” 

[IntentAwesome]

Hmmm, is it possible that the remnant of Honor’s power has taken over Ishar, and it’s manifesting and gaining sentience through him?

Also, is adult Gav gonna come back and lead Teft’s squires in their vengeance pact against Moash?

[Display-Names-Are-Stupid]

14 minutes ago, coolsnow7 said:

I just want to point out that this is always wrong. Brandon has another 6 books of Stormlight alone to reveal new Cosmeric mechanics. We’re never in a position to say “x is confirmed by process of elimination.” 

I'd agree with this. I believe there was a WoB where it stated that Cultivation caused Lift to exist partially in the Cognitive Realm, which is why she can touch Wyndle and use him to climb when he is in vine form. It could be that to make her that way Cultivation just gave her a tonne of Investiture. 

Or something else entirely. 

[teknopathetic he/him]

If Honour’s power is in the spiritual, then why send Kal to go save a piece of it in Shinovar?

 Wouldn’t it be amazing if Cultivation was lying? She strolls in as loud as possible and basically tells that all parties should go looking in the Spiritual Realm 

Meanwhile, the real hunt happens in Shinovar.

 

[Njvodin]

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

Wait a minute, “Navani shrugged at the news??” Did Hoid make a Lightwaeving of her?? Is he pretending to be Dalinar when Lift plays as Navani? Oh that’s hilarious! And worrisome because Hoid can now make sure that Roshar will play as he wants them to.

Hoid being Dalinar definitely should be worrisome, I think. I don't really wanna know what he's planning, especially when he's got power over the entire tower and their occupants. 

More and more it seems like he wants Roshar to be a sacrificial lamb for the cosmere so that Odium doesn't escape. That much has already been made clear, but seeing it like this really makes him more scary to me, personally

[SheepAreFluffy]

The repeating motif of walking away from things is coming across especially strongly now. Most obviously in Nohadon's words in the epigraphs and in Kaladin walking away from his role as a soldier. It's always been a big Stormlight Archive thing, though, being the basic idea behind both Aharietiam and the Recreance, as well as more minor instances like Raboniel wanting an end to the war, Hoid giving up his Dawnshard, etc.

This is also related to Honor as a shard, which is largely opposed to this sort of walking away from things. Honor is about being bound to things, choosing to stay the course, never walking away. Which is being presented to us as a harmful way to look at things.

I believe that a big part of the ending will see our characters choosing to walk away from something, or otherwise reframe the question they are asking. I am getting progressively more speculative as I go on, but my guess is that this will involve the fight against Odium. Rather than winning or losing, they will realise that they need to walk away from the fight. Which, yes, will unleash Odium on the rest of the Cosmere, but for how long can he be the problem and responsibility of Roshar and Roshar alone? After all, "I accept that there will be those I cannot protect". Both Jasnah and now Lift have brought up the possibility only to be shot down by Hoid, but what if they're right? What if keeping him trapped  longer just means that he'd have more time to consolidate and his eventual victory would be more complete? Basically, what if Roshar as a whole needs to repeat on a larger scale what Kaladin is doing, and take some time to just recover from the trauma?

[teknopathetic he/him]

I wonder if Kal could still step in as Champion. He does have that letter stating he is the heir. And as the heir, he might have some authority. As far as I know, Hoid isn’t aware of the letter. 

Edited November 26, 2024 by teknopathetic

[Calten_Gnomercy]

Is it possible that Ishar was compromised years ago by whatever Unmade were hanging around Shinovar at the time?

 

I dont think we know what powers those Unmade have.

I can see a scenario where Ishar is compromised and is forced to push Szeth into action as Truthless. Setting off all of the turmoil he brought.

Now he’s back, and Ishar is talking about how he’s sapping the pain and darkness from the other Heralds. Providing them sort of lucidity. We’d expect it to make things tough on Ishar, but what if the Unmade that has him is powered on that darkness making Ishar and the Unmade more powerful?

I was super confused when Lift was acting as Navani. The careless shift made me laugh.

 

 

 

[Moirne she/her]

20 minutes ago, Calten_Gnomercy said:

Is it possible that Ishar was compromised years ago by whatever Unmade were hanging around Shinovar at the time?

 

I dont think we know what powers those Unmade have.

I can see a scenario where Ishar is compromised and is forced to push Szeth into action as Truthless. Setting off all of the turmoil he brought.

Now he’s back, and Ishar is talking about how he’s sapping the pain and darkness from the other Heralds. Providing them sort of lucidity. We’d expect it to make things tough on Ishar, but what if the Unmade that has him is powered on that darkness making Ishar and the Unmade more powerful?

I was super confused when Lift was acting as Navani. The careless shift made me laugh.

 

 

 

Perhaps Dai-Gonarthis is influencing Ishar?

[teknopathetic he/him]

8 minutes ago, Moirne said:

Perhaps Dai-Gonarthis is influencing Ishar?

He seems to have gone more crazy around the time another herald died, which is suspicious. 
 

But Szeth was already out and about by the time that event happened 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

13 hours ago, Inevitability said:

Prediction 2: remember the Tower, Crown, Spear death rattle? Again, with the WaT back cover blurb in mind- I think the Spear will actually turn out to be Syl. Side note - the tower probably is Urithiru but the crown? My guess is the forgotten Alerhi heritage that is hinted at.

Could the crown be Gavinor? He could claim that he is the lawful king of Alethkar.

[BinarySecond]

31 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Could the crown be Gavinor? He could claim that he is the lawful king of Alethkar.

He's going to come back 35 years old and traumatised.

[RedBlue]

A few thoughts:

Lift — I find Lift charming, but sometimes it’s frustrating how little she seems to do for the amount of screen time she has, so I’m very happy to see her making choices that affect the actual plot. Even if it was by mistake.

And now she’s doing a terrible (but hilarious) impression of Navani. I don’t think she’ll be able to keep up the ruse for long 

Gavinor — we know a lot of uncomfortable truths that Gavinor will, presumably, have to come to terms with. His father was a bad king. His other parental/grand-parental figures have deeply questionable pasts. Moash killed Elhokar driven by the same vengeful feelings Gavinor is feeling now.

I had thought this was all being saved for teenage or twenty-ish Gavinor in the back half. That was before he was thrown into the Flashback Dimension at age five.

This kid is in for a bumpy ride and I am very excited for it.

Kaladin’s attempts at therapy — it really messes with Kaladin’s head when he doesn’t have a game plan. He’s clinging desperately to the ‘bonding and listening’ method that has worked before, but he knows he doesn’t have the time, and he can see that this isn’t enough when dealing with someone who is resistant to the very idea of healing.

So what’s his next step? My guess is to show some interest in Szeth’s goals and motivations, and make an argument that experimental therapy will totally help him get it done the right way. Best way to persuade people is to appeal to the things people care about.

Odium — as Wit’s non-answer to Lift demonstrates, there is no good solution to the Odium problem. The power itself can’t be destroyed, so someone will always have to deal with it in some form. I can think of three likely scenarios by the end of this book:

1) Odium wins, is unbound from Roshar, and escapes into the wider cosmere.

2) Odium loses, remains stuck in the Rosharan system, is restricted from actively doing anything of consequence, but is still alive and well.

3) Odium loses a lot more than anyone expected, and the Shard ends up being splintered or held by someone who radically changes its nature … somehow.

All of these scenarios feel like plot hooks, either for the back half or for a future series. Not that I’m complaining!

[Darvys]

28 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

1) Odium wins, is unbound from Roshar, and escapes into the wider cosmere.

2) Odium loses, remains stuck in the Rosharan system, is restricted from actively doing anything of consequence, but is still alive and well.

3) Odium loses a lot more than anyone expected, and the Shard ends up being splintered or held by someone who radically changes its nature … somehow.

and the most likely imo 4) Odium wins, remains stuck on Roshar, but given free rein to prepare and recruit Radiants to his cause.

I find it curious how so many seem to want Ishar to be lying about his burden and have Taln be the one doing anything of note to help against Odium. How boring would that be ? Taln wasn't any nobler than the rest, they all made the pact, they all bore it as long as they could, Taln was more resilient to torture, cool, that on its own doesn't make him a better person let alone the only good person among the Heralds, I don't see the point of tarnishing the rest to elevate him, makes for a better story if they're all genuinely doing what little they can to help each in their own twisted way.

Still think Kaladin's attempts at therapy are a miss by Brandon, he feels more like a caricature than a convincing portrayal of a pioneer, somewhat by design I guess, but I just don't like it, would have preferred if his attempts at connecting felt more genuine even if ultimately fruitless, but here the dialogue was just painful to read at times, reading Szeth still responding for some reason didn't help, it didn't seem believable because we still have no clue what he thinks about any of this and it doesn't fit what little I know of Szeth, I would have preferred to watch the scale tip from his own pov, after a bit more effort than a bowl of stew.

 

[RedBlue]

8 minutes ago, Darvys said:

and the most likely imo 4) Odium wins, remains stuck on Roshar, but given free rein to prepare and recruit Radiants to his cause.

That’s a possibility for sure. The reason I left it off my ‘likely’ list is because it doesn’t feel like the type of resolution Brandon usually writes. He likes big twists and dramatic changes. Especially at the end of book five, which he has described as the end of the first arc, I’m expecting something more decisive than ‘and then both sides ground to an unstable stalemate.’ Maybe I’ll be surprised.

[BinarySecond]

23 minutes ago, Darvys said:

Still think Kaladin's attempts at therapy are a miss by Brandon, he feels more like a caricature than a convincing portrayal of a pioneer, somewhat by design I guess, but I just don't like it, would have preferred if his attempts at connecting felt more genuine even if ultimately fruitless, but here the dialogue was just painful to read at times, reading Szeth still responding for some reason didn't help, it didn't seem believable because we still have no clue what he thinks about any of this and it doesn't fit what little I know of Szeth, I would have preferred to watch the scale tip from his own pov, after a bit more effort than a bowl of stew.

I kind of think that's the point. Kaladin previous had months with no solid deadlines to work to. He muses on it in this chapter. He's feeling desperate and acting like it which is leading to poor quality work. Also most of the people *wanted* help; Szeth is currently very resistant to Kaladin's attempts.

[+Child of Hodor]

19 minutes ago, Darvys said:

and the most likely imo 4) Odium wins, remains stuck on Roshar, but given free rein to prepare and recruit Radiants to his cause.

 

That's probably right. He wins, but Dalinar figures out a new way to trap him. 

2 hours ago, BinarySecond said:

He's going to come back 35 years old and traumatised.

LOL for whatever reason this Jay Cutler meme popped in my head as world-weary, chain smoking, cynical Gavinor. He's seen some things. 

10 hours ago, IntentAwesome said:

Hmmm, is it possible that the remnant of Honor’s power has taken over Ishar, and it’s manifesting and gaining sentience through him?

I think he ascended to a little bit of Honor. Shards usually only start to think for themselves if they are uncontrolled. If Ishar is controlling the remnant well then it wouldn't gain sentience. If he was controlling it poorly, like Rayse with Odium, then the remnant of the shard would gain a mind of its own. Long way of saying maybe you're right. 

 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

14 hours ago, alder24 said:

Lift, you break my heart with those thoughts.

Which thoughts? Those about what might have been? Well, yes.

14 hours ago, alder24 said:

Sleepless were watching Hoid and Dalinar this all time. Hoid was right to find a place so loud they wouldn’t have been able to listen to their conversation.

No. If they were always listening they already knew that Honor has not been splintered and where to find it. That is the true bombshell. Odium surely has a way to get into the Spiritual Realm.

14 hours ago, alder24 said:

And with that Mraize, Shallan and all who were on the other side were sucked into the SR. I would like to know why this collapsing perpendicularity did what Nightblood couldn’t. I simply thought that the release of energy from annihilation would push everything outwards, as a normal giant explosion would do.

I suppose because the perpendicularity Nightblood collapsed was not in the process of being used to travel to the Spiritual Realm.

14 hours ago, alder24 said:

Wait a minute, “Navani shrugged at the news??” Did Hoid make a Lightwaeving of her?? Is he pretending to be Dalinar when Lift plays as Navani? Oh that’s hilarious! And worrisome because Hoid can now make sure that Roshar will play as he wants them to.

Not really. He can do whatever Lift is ready to tolerate.

14 hours ago, alder24 said:

but Adolin too - for all he knows his wife was just killed. And not just his wife, but his father is now lost in the Spiritual Realm instead of being where he’s needed - he may even blame him for her death. I’m not trying to argue for those specific theories, but I am just looking at the seeds that keep growing. Odium can try to exploit both of them.

Adolin is a trained military officer. Though you are raising three points

1. Whom is Lift going to  tell about the deception?
2. Do the Radiants know what collapsed the perpendicularity?
3. Adolin is now Jasnah's heir.

[Inevitability]

10 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

I just want to point out that this is always wrong. Brandon has another 6 books of Stormlight alone to reveal new Cosmeric mechanics. We’re never in a position to say “x is confirmed by process of elimination.” 

Until it’s canonically proven otherwise through book, I will never give up on the Lift-dragon theory!

Plus now that we know more about Lift’s mother issues - her mother being a Shard would really complicate a relationship and would explain why Cultivation made a special effort with her

 

[elihaun]

19 hours ago, Ninth of the Night said:

Speaking of which, I think Hoid confirmed that Lift is a Dawnshard. What else could cause her to be so highly Invested?

My thought was that, since she gains Investiture from calories, that she now has WAY more access to food then she ever had.  She is not limited by a gem holding the light, so she theoretically has access to a LOT more of it.  Also, Cultivation probably has something to do with it, but also maybe cultivation was able to do something with it because she just innately has a lot of spiritual energy? maybe she is just... Awesome

19 hours ago, Elder said:

It also seems like the Wind is on the same side as Honor.  That Odium was the one who suppressed the Wind. So much for the idea of the Shards being Usurpers.

Maybe THAT is the part of honor that Ishar has?  the wind did not call out to Kaladin from the west until ishar went to the west.  It was not 'free' until ishar had his lapse due to Navani's oath.  Maybe Ishar could not predict/see kaladin before because Kaladin was to close to himself, or the power of the wind.  Ishar thinks of himself as the stormfather, and if he had the wind itself as a spren/prisioner, then that makes a LOT more sense.

19 hours ago, Isilel said:

This makes me wonder if they might have a deal with Odium... Though if Iyatil actually cares about the safety of  Scadrial even a little bit, this would be counter-productive.

we know that there was SOME kind of deal made.  Meraize gave Rebonial the silver necklace and sand as a gift when trying to make a deal, and it is natural to assume the deal went through. 

[elihaun]

17 hours ago, Namle84 said:

I think this would work if the language were “the burdens of 9 are mine” or “I carry the burdens of 9,” but “the burdens of 9 become mine” means that all 9 burdens came upon him at a particular moment… which does not work for Ishar

This might be because the burden was not 'his' but one he assumed.  The oath pack were not innately something that they HAD to do, but took willingly.  So, ishar might have always thought of it as 'I am carrying a burden for others'. he sees himself as a hero, so he does not consider 'his' burden his 

[RedBlue]

I’m going to try to make sense of Ishar’s ravings by turning them into a list. Wish me luck.

1. Ishar previously wrote Kaladin off as unimportant, but has now noticed him. This proves that Ishar’s knowledge and understanding is very limited.
2.  He can see that Kaladin is Connected to Dalinar — normal Bondsmith stuff.
3. He still considers Dalinar to be a ‘false champion.’ No change there.
4. He considers Szeth to be his ‘servant.’ First we’ve heard of it.
5. He still considers himself to be a god, the Almighty. No change there.
6. However, he has discarded the Tezim persona due to Dalinar’s interference and the moment of lucidity. Which means the Tezim persona was a real delusion, not an act. Also that brief access to the Spiritual Realm can have a long term effect on the Heralds’ illnesses.
7. He claims to have recovered memories. Unclear whether these are genuine, or more delusions.
8. He has ‘plans’ to deal with ‘threats.’ He is very vague about this.
9. He claims that he takes on the other Heralds’ ‘darkness,’ with the exception of Taln, which allows them to stay functional. He seems to see the others as weak and inferior.
10. He wants Kaladin to help Szeth to murder a bunch of Shin leaders. Unclear what his reasoning is, but clearly he is somewhat invested in Shinovar’s problems.

Looking at points 1, 3, 4, 5, and 6, the guy is detached from reality and suffers from a sense of inflated grandiosity.

Having said that, his delusions are based on things that are really happening, just warped in a way that puts Ishar firmly at the centre of the universe.

The claim that Ishar is siphoning the others’ pain has gotten a lot of attention. Clearly, we can’t take what Ishar says at face value, but I think Ishar’s belief is based on something real.

I don’t think it can be related to the Braize torture, because Ishar speaks about it as though it is ongoing. This is something he believes he’s been doing since they walked away from the Oathpact.

The other Heralds see Ishar as being the most sane one of the bunch, and view him as an authority whose word can be trusted. (Nale hunted down budding Radiants on Ishar’s recommendation.) This matches up to Ishar’s belief that he’s propping up the rest of them.

What if Ishar has been using some Oathpact-related ability to mess with the others’ spiritwebs or similar? And all of them think it’s helping? That could make Ishar’s meddling a key component of all of the Heralds’ mental issues (minus Taln).

[Isilel]

20 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

Especially since he says he gave Szeth his task, when Szeth says an Unmade did it. 

 

Ishar might be fully delusional, of course, but it occurs to me that he could have been living among the Shin, pretending to be one of them. He has the "Shin" look, after all.  It is noticeable that Szeth was not present during this little confrontation between him and Kal.

OTOH, Szeth didn't recognize him in RoW, so maybe Ishar was playing a behind the scenes authority figure? Or, since at least the higher up Shin spiritual leaders know about the Heralds' deal ("We kept your secrets" Szeth's phrase from RoW), and that we know that Shalash had lived in Shinovar as herself for a time, maybe they consulted with Ishar, fully knowing who he was, in the matter of Szeth's warnings?

Something else suddenly occurred to me - did Ishar bond all the remaining Honorblades? Or, at least, enough of them to use all the _9_ surges currently available, with both Gravitation blades taken? Because his sudden appearance and disappearance very much suggest Transportation. And some of his "deific" display could be Lighweaving.

Another thought - Wit and Lift are playing Dalinar and Navani, but shouldn't someone impersonate Gav, too? Because he is important enough for his absence to raise hue and cry? Or will they just say that they'll keep Gav with them and Hoid will create a Lighweaving to mimic him? Also, they'd need to keep the Lighweavers away from Urithiru, in case one of them idly looks into the Cognitive. And probably discreetly inform Jasnah?