An assortment of questions rattling around in my brain as I continue waiting impatiently for 12/6

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

1. Is it possible that Lift is a Dawnshard? 
   1. When she meets with Cultivation, she asks not to change. She said that 'when everything else is going wrong, I want to be the same, I want to stay me, not become someone else'
      1. Interesting parallel to the Command behind Rysn's Dawnshard - Change. It would make sense that there would be some Dawnshards in opposition to eachother - Change vs. Be/Remain/Exist or something like that?
   2. We don't know exactly what her boon/curse was - but I believe it's implied that her odd ability to generate lifelight through her metabolism is related to it. Could it be that her boon/curse was just to be given the Dawnshard with the commant to remain the same, along with a torment (perhaps her itching discomfort around the idea of everything changing around her or even her body changing?) - and then could some of the other oddities be explained by her bonding a spren while already being a dawnshard? (somethign Rysn is specifically instructed not to do)
2. Is it possible that Tanavast created a copy of himself to replace himself as the vessel of Honor?
   1. We get a lot of warnings in these preview chapters about the dangers of investiture gaining its own sentience/sapience. Maybe this is what all the abdication stuff is about too. Perhaps Nohadan IS Tanavast. Not that they swapped per se, but Tanavast abdicated, and went on to live a full life and became a king and wrote a book?
   2. This would imply that the reason Honor started acting strangely and getting more and more obsessed with oaths is that the copy couldn't maintain itself for very long and eventually 'wore out' somehow? What is left of the power attached itself to the Stormfather to create an even odder amalgamation of spren/cognitive shadow/sliver thing when Odium attacked directly and 'splintered' the shard?
      1. Or perhaps when they find Honor's power they discover that it is self aware (still) and unwilling to give up it's own agency, and maybe it even prefers to be in the Spiritual realm instead of dealing with the phyiscal and cognitive realms very much?

[coolsnow7]

22 hours ago, CognitiveShadow said:

We get a lot of warnings in these preview chapters about the dangers of investiture gaining its own sentience/sapience. Maybe this is what all the abdication stuff is about too. Perhaps Nohadan IS Tanavast. Not that they swapped per se, but Tanavast abdicated, and went on to live a full life and became a king and wrote a book?

I don’t think this is right, I think those warnings are about the prospect of Spren and the like becoming disconnected from humans for long enough that they become antagonistic and dangerous to humanity.

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

14 minutes ago, coolsnow7 said:

I don’t think this is right, I think those warnings are about the prospect of Spren and the like becoming disconnected from humans for long enough that they become antagonistic and dangerous to humanity.

I don’t think this is right. Yes, they do address that spren are bits of investiture that start walking around and riding on earrings, etc. but what I’m referring to is the warning from the sibling about leaving Honor’s power alone too long:

Quote

Is it right, what he contemplates? she asked the Sibling. Ascending to Honor?

Someone will need to eventually, the Sibling said. The power can’t be left to its own devices. It will come awake.

Why hasn’t it already? It’s been thousands of years.

Whatever the reason, be glad. These powers aren’t like the tiny pieces that become spren. The power of a Shard needs a partner, a Vessel. Without it…

What? Navani asked.

Great danger. We do not think as humans do. To separate the power from those who are attached to the Physical Realm… that should frighten you. It is not so terrible a thing for part of me to despise you. But for the power of a god to? Dangerous. For all of us.

I think it’s conceivable that Tanavast could have replaced himself with a copy by making a duplicate cognitive shadow of himself, then abdicated and left the power to rule itself, but with the expectation that his investiture construct of himself would hold itself together. But I think since the power he made ‘himself’ out of is not actually tied to the physical realm, it ended up coming undone and that’s why Honor got so obsessed with oaths at the end.

It’s also feasible that no one would notice a change in the Honor’s tone and therefore would not detect the swap, since it was a copy of himself - axon for axon, but just made from investiture completely.

[Through the Living Wrath he/him]

On 11/13/2024 at 6:23 PM, CognitiveShadow said:

I don’t think this is right. Yes, they do address that spren are bits of investiture that start walking around and riding on earrings, etc. but what I’m referring to is the warning from the sibling about leaving Honor’s power alone too long:

I think it’s conceivable that Tanavast could have replaced himself with a copy by making a duplicate cognitive shadow of himself, then abdicated and left the power to rule itself, but with the expectation that his investiture construct of himself would hold itself together. But I think since the power he made ‘himself’ out of is not actually tied to the physical realm, it ended up coming undone and that’s why Honor got so obsessed with oaths at the end.

It’s also feasible that no one would notice a change in the Honor’s tone and therefore would not detect the swap, since it was a copy of himself - axon for axon, but just made from investiture completely.

Mmmmmmhhmmmmmmmmm I like this theory. Don’t know how likely it is, but I liiiiiiiike it.

In multiple of the WoK excerpts at the beginning of ‘em chapters, Nohadon is obsessed with how “dust” goes wherever it wants to go. It would make sense if he was referring to Dust. He also sound kinda envious of how Dust can travel wherever he wishes to go. As a shard on this planet, it would be difficult for him to actually leave. Maybe this copy+abdication could have been a failed attempt to leave Roshar? 

[mattstocum]

My pet theory is that Honor's power was trapped in a gemstone similar to how BAM was trapped, which is why it hasn't gone destroying things yet. Maybe Tanavast figured out how to release the Shard and trap it. He abdicated his position and just lived the rest of his life as a mortal, having kids eventually leading to Kaladin's birth. Tanavast knew that the power would only be safe with someone who didn't want it. Someone who was honorable before ascending. Someone who wants to help but understands their limits. Someone like Kaladin. I think Dalinar and Navani are going to find Honor's power, learn the truth, and see that Kaladin is who the power is meant for with Syl dying in the process because Brandon.

[alder24]

3 hours ago, mattstocum said:

My pet theory is that Honor's power was trapped in a gemstone similar to how BAM was trapped

Not possible. Shardic power is basically infinite, it would require an astronomically large gemstone to trap that inside. 

Spoiler

Questioner

Assuming you have a way to siphon out a Vessel from a Shard, how much hemalurgic metal would be required to contain that Vessel?

Brandon Sanderson

An astronomically large amount. Oh, the Vessel? Or contain a Shard? The Vessel, just a little dude... not that much. Basically, like a decent-sized gemstone would hold an Unmade, and that's more Investiture than we're talking about.

Questioner

Can hemalurgic metal hold around the same amount of an Invested creature as a pure gemstone?

Brandon Sanderson

No, gemstones can do more.

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

With Shards, are there any... limits? What can't they do? Besides being opposed by another Shard and their own intent?

Brandon Sanderson

It varies a lot. It varies based on experience and situation. They are not omnipotent, though the power is infinite. So that is the weird part that you get into. So, they are limited partially by their own limitations, and also the limitations imposed upon them by the situations they're in.

Questioner

Is there anything universal about all of them?

Brandon Sanderson

They all have bits of them in all of the cosmere, so that's universal. They all are bounded more by themselves than by the power itself.

Skyward Chicago signing (Nov. 16, 2018)

 

[Zea mays]

On 11/12/2024 at 6:24 PM, CognitiveShadow said:

1. Is it possible that Lift is a Dawnshard? 
   1. When she meets with Cultivation, she asks not to change. She said that 'when everything else is going wrong, I want to be the same, I want to stay me, not become someone else'
      1. Interesting parallel to the Command behind Rysn's Dawnshard - Change. It would make sense that there would be some Dawnshards in opposition to eachother - Change vs. Be/Remain/Exist or something like that?
   2. We don't know exactly what her boon/curse was - but I believe it's implied that her odd ability to generate lifelight through her metabolism is related to it. Could it be that her boon/curse was just to be given the Dawnshard with the commant to remain the same, along with a torment (perhaps her itching discomfort around the idea of everything changing around her or even her body changing?) - and then could some of the other oddities be explained by her bonding a spren while already being a dawnshard? (somethign Rysn is specifically instructed not to do)

Lift. We just learned that lift has a bit of a crush on Sigzil. 

A.K.A. "The Sunlit Man". A man known to have, at a time in his past (sometime in this coming book?), held a Dawnshard. 

You've got me worried now.

Is it Monday yet?

[Dreamwa1ker she/her]

On 11/15/2024 at 4:47 PM, Zea mays said:

Lift. We just learned that lift has a bit of a crush on Sigzil. 

A.K.A. "The Sunlit Man". A man known to have, at a time in his past (sometime in this coming book?), held a Dawnshard. 

You've got me worried now.

Is it Monday yet?

Omg and she also is a pacifist, like she wields Wyndle as a baton sort of thing rather than a sword right? This might be right. We see her eat meat though so not exactly the same Torment that Hoid has shown.

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

@Dreamwa1ker @Zea mays

But wait, didn't Sigzil get his Dawnshard directly from Hoid? And then gave it back to Hoid? I don't think Lift's Dawnshard would be the same as theirs, especially since her 'torment' (if it is one) seems to be more of compulsion to remain as she is/was, refusing to accept the changes in her body and in the world around her. It seems quite different from Sig and Hoid's inability to harm others.

[BinarySecond]

All I'm taking away from this is that there is potential to create a gem stone metal hybrid hemalurgic spike.

Would it require a god metal to function as the metal?

[OoklaApologist She/her]

On 11/13/2024 at 5:23 PM, CognitiveShadow said:

I think it’s conceivable that Tanavast could have replaced himself with a copy by making a duplicate cognitive shadow of himself, then abdicated and left the power to rule itself, but with the expectation that his investiture construct of himself would hold itself together.

I think you're overcomplicating it. It's a warning about Investiture gaining sapience when left alone, not a warning about an axon-for-axon copy

[Smye]

On 11/15/2024 at 10:22 AM, mattstocum said:

eventually leading to Kaladin's birth.

I'd refer you to this WOB

Spoiler

General Reddit 2020 (Dec. 16, 2020)
#1Dec. 16, 2020 Share  Copy

AlwaysTheNextOne

Does Kaladin have a mixed heritage. Like maybe Yolish and Rosharan?

Brandon Sanderson

One thing I wanted to be very careful about in writing the Stormlight books is to stray away from people needing some kind of past or heritage to be special—it's okay for this to be for some characters, but it becomes a crutch. So your answer is no, he doesn't have much secret to his heritage. (Though his mother grew up wealthy for a darkeyes, and that's a little odd.)

 

 

Edited November 20, 2024 by Smye

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

10 minutes ago, KelsierApologist said:

I think you're overcomplicating it. It's a warning about Investiture gaining sapience when left alone, not a warning about an axon-for-axon copy

• The copy is made of investiture and Brandon has mentioned that there are challenges that cognitive shadows have when holding a shard that living people do not.
• There is a constant theme about abdication in these chapter headings.
• We are told that there is a secret about something that happened with Tanavast and the power of Honor, and that the power now needs to be convinced to let someone take it up (this goes beyond the normal need for finding someone with connection to the shard and its intent).
• We learn that spren and other gods can feel / hear the change in the shard's tone when a new vessel takes it up as long as they look for it
  • This means they would all have known if Tanavast had swapped with someone or just left the power on its own
• We know that Honor got more and more obsessed with Oaths at the very end, and it seems to have been somewhat sudden and a drastic decline, not just the effect of his shard's power slowly changing him over the millenia

I think this theory hits on all those points. The duplicate would have matched him completely at first, but then it would make sense that as a cognitive shadow it would be influenced by the power quite quickly. Plus it would not have it's own connection to the physical realm. Unless Tanavast connected the power to himself still while he lived as a mortal (Nohadon). Is there anything here that would not fit thematically or logistically?

[OoklaApologist She/her]

1 hour ago, CognitiveShadow said:

• The copy is made of investiture and Brandon has mentioned that there are challenges that cognitive shadows have when holding a shard that living people do not.
• There is a constant theme about abdication in these chapter headings.
• We are told that there is a secret about something that happened with Tanavast and the power of Honor, and that the power now needs to be convinced to let someone take it up (this goes beyond the normal need for finding someone with connection to the shard and its intent).
• We learn that spren and other gods can feel / hear the change in the shard's tone when a new vessel takes it up as long as they look for it
  • This means they would all have known if Tanavast had swapped with someone or just left the power on its own
• We know that Honor got more and more obsessed with Oaths at the very end, and it seems to have been somewhat sudden and a drastic decline, not just the effect of his shard's power slowly changing him over the millenia

I think this theory hits on all those points. The duplicate would have matched him completely at first, but then it would make sense that as a cognitive shadow it would be influenced by the power quite quickly. Plus it would not have it's own connection to the physical realm. Unless Tanavast connected the power to himself still while he lived as a mortal (Nohadon). Is there anything here that would not fit thematically or logistically?

Man, I regret not reading the theories in your bio now. You’ve gained a follower, at least until I can come up with a counterpoint

[KaladinWorldsinger]

11 hours ago, CognitiveShadow said:

The copy is made of investiture and Brandon has mentioned that there are challenges that cognitive shadows have when holding a shard that living people do not.

Cognitive shadows don't have a valid connection to the physical realm, so they are not good vessels for a shard. This is why Tanavast stapled his cognitive shadow onto the stormfather who, even though is a spren, does have a connection to the physical realm to the storm

 

11 hours ago, CognitiveShadow said:

There is a constant theme about abdication in these chapter headings.

Abdication as a good thing though, rather than bad. Dalinar's arc this book will involve him either refusing to give up power, or accepting that loss of power.

12 hours ago, CognitiveShadow said:

and that the power now needs to be convinced to let someone take it up

This makes sense for Honor as a shard tho. It is the idea that wanting power is inherently dishonourable. This is why one of the main things that attracted Syl to Kal was him giving up the shards.

12 hours ago, CognitiveShadow said:

We learn that spren and other gods can feel / hear the change in the shard's tone when a new vessel takes it up as long as they look for it

• This means they would all have known if Tanavast had swapped with someone or just left the power on its own

 

We don't know for a fact that Honor did swap with someone or left the power on his own before the recreance. I think you are right that Tanavast left on his own, but I think it's during the recreance

12 hours ago, CognitiveShadow said:

We know that Honor got more and more obsessed with Oaths at the very end, and it seems to have been somewhat sudden and a drastic decline, not just the effect of his shard's power slowly changing him over the millenia

We know from Wobs that Tanavast's death was a protracted event. He was attacked near the last Desolation but died after the recreance. The loss of his sanity was gradual, because he was losing a viable connection to the physical realm as his body was dying.

Also, I am confused. Honor got crazy near the recreance. Nohadon was loong before that. How does this point to your theory?

12 hours ago, CognitiveShadow said:

The duplicate would have matched him completely at first, but then it would make sense that as a cognitive shadow it would be influenced by the power quite quickly. Plus it would not have it's own connection to the physical realm.

Wait, if the duplicate is just a cognitive shadow, then it would not have a connection to the physical realm at all. Which would mean that Honor would get crazy very quickly.

[Slappyface]

After reading this WOB again I’m leaning toward Nohadon’s abdication being his journey and maybe based on Honor/Cultivation teachings and not related to Tanavasts life as a mortal(If he even did that) 

Quote

Questioner

So, I was actually wondering whether Tanavast constructed the confrontation with Rayse in such a way that *inaudible*

Brandon Sanderson

That nailed his foot to the floor?

Questioner

He's stuck on Braize - at least for now.

Brandon Sanderson

Ah, yes. That was, in effect, that was an intentional -

Questioner

It was deliberate? Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

It was deliberate. Yup.

Questioner

*Inaudible, possibly 'Rayse'* started to win?

Brandon Sanderson

Um, well...

Questioner

I'll keep it secret until it shows up on Facebook.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, it... so, Odium came at him, and he gave - not as good as he got - but he made it cost.

Questioner

Did he sacrifice himself, or is Odium better at that sort of thing?

Brandon Sanderson

I wouldn't say that he sacrificed himself, I'd say he went out swinging.

Questioner

Is Odium just better at that sort of thing?

Brandon Sanderson

I would say, yes.

Oathbringer San Diego signing (Nov. 14, 2017)

 

I think he got the mortal blow in that fight and slowly went mad and in his last moments attached his shadow to the Stormfather. This WOB states there is no funny business around Tanavasts death.

Quote

Questioner

Is Honor still alive?

Brandon Sanderson

Honor? Honor's dead.

Questioner

What about Tanavast?

Brandon Sanderson

So, um, you can assume that there is no funny business going on there.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

I think Brandon will surprise us with something much more clever but I don’t have any clue to what atm, just had to share some thoughts

Edited November 21, 2024 by Slappyface