El in Wind and Truth

[TwinStorm He/Him]

What do you think El's role in wat will be after he was set up as a major villain at the end of book 4? I would love to see El and the Skybreakers invading the tower as a thread during the Sanderlanche (assuming its another extended one of course), but I'm not sure if he could do that due to the Sibling's protections, though his thing about not hearing the rhythms might grant him so protection depending how the Sibling judges who are Fused or not. I doubt this will happen, but interested to hear your thoughts on El in general!

[Through the Living Shadow he/him]

16 minutes ago, TwinStorm said:

What do you think El's role in wat will be after he was set up as a major villain at the end of book 4? I would love to see El and the Skybreakers invading the tower as a thread during the Sanderlanche (assuming its another extended one of course), but I'm not sure if he could do that due to the Sibling's protections, though his thing about not hearing the rhythms might grant him so protection depending how the Sibling judges who are Fused or not. I doubt this will happen, but interested to hear your thoughts on El in general!

Interesting... what about if his... what about he attacks Dalinar at the tower or in the Spiritual Realm? We haven't seen any prominent villain for Dalinar except Odium at the end.

[TwinStorm He/Him]

1 minute ago, SpiritOfWrath said:

Interesting... what about if his... what about he attacks Dalinar at the tower or in the Spiritual Realm? We haven't seen any prominent villain for Dalinar except Odium at the end.

Spiritual Realm is Ghostblood territory and I feel like Dalinar has his hands full... what about Rlain (with Renarin, of course? Someone who rejected the Singers versus someone who is trying to return to them.

Edited November 12, 2024 by TwinStorm

[Through the Living Shadow he/him]

Just now, TwinStorm said:

Spiritual Realm is Ghostblood territory and I feel like Dalinar has his hands full... what about Rlain (with Renarin, of course? Someone who rejected the Singers versus someone who is trying to return to them.

Good point...

But isn't Dalinar going separately? With Wit?

 

[TwinStorm He/Him]

Just now, SpiritOfWrath said:

Good point...

But isn't Dalinar going separately? With Wit?

 

He's going with Navani.

[Through the Living Shadow he/him]

Just now, TwinStorm said:

He's going with Navani.

Well ye but the ghostbloods are attacking Shallan.

His goal in the SR is much different than Shallan's.

[The Stick]

I frankly see the SR as becoming a massive battle royal with a lot of different parties. I could even see contest being on top of Urithiru in SR, although that is kind of a stretch, because SR time is weird. I can see a Dalinar Navani team, a Ghostbloods team, a Shallan team, a BAM team, and an Odium Team. Lastly, I can also see Ishar taking Kal and Szeth into SR through perpendicular ties, and Ishar making a mad rush at the power. I would say the goals for El at least would actually be to use a lot of anti-light to destroy BAM. After all, she stabbed Odium in the back before, so I think it is practical for him to want to destroy her.

[+Dragon13 he/him]

I'm not sure what I expect his role to be, but I've been feeling more and more that El is a shortened version of a much longer name...  The one that keeps swirling around in the back of my brain is Elithanathile, who has also been called "He Who Transforms" which sounds very much to me like a Fused name.  Could it be that the Almighty wasn't human after all?

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

40 minutes ago, Dragon13 said:

I'm not sure what I expect his role to be, but I've been feeling more and more that El is a shortened version of a much longer name...  The one that keeps swirling around in the back of my brain is Elithanathile, who has also been called "He Who Transforms" which sounds very much to me like a Fused name.  Could it be that the Almighty wasn't human after all?

Tanavast is a human though, that's been confirmed. There were no Singers on Yolen when the Shattering happened, and as far as we know, only two of the Vessels weren't human. Ambition (Uli Da) was a Sho Del and Cultivation (Koravellium) is a Dragon.

Speaking of which I really hope we get to see Cultivation's Dragon form at some point in this book, because that would be awesome.

[+Dragon13 he/him]

4 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Tanavast is a human though, that's been confirmed. There were no Singers on Yolen when the Shattering happened, and as far as we know, only two of the Vessels weren't human. Ambition (Uli Da) was a Sho Del and Cultivation (Koravellium) is a Dragon.

Speaking of which I really hope we get to see Cultivation's Dragon form at some point in this book, because that would be awesome.

Very true (and I second wanting to see an actual Dragon form on screen), but to be clear, I do not equate Tanavast with Elithanathile.  We have seen several instances of inaccuracies from the folks on Roshar, not the least of which include instances of Jezrien being incorrectly identified as the Stormfather.

Alternately, if we were to adopt the stance that Tanavast and Elithanathile are the same, we could also say that a Shard could appear as any race, depending on the audience.  We have definitely seen Odium appear to Dalinar and Taravangian as a human, but to Venli as a Singer.

[TwinStorm He/Him]

7 hours ago, Dragon13 said:

I'm not sure what I expect his role to be, but I've been feeling more and more that El is a shortened version of a much longer name...  The one that keeps swirling around in the back of my brain is Elithanathile, who has also been called "He Who Transforms" which sounds very much to me like a Fused name.  Could it be that the Almighty wasn't human after all?

I agree with you, El seemed shortened as almost a nickname. Maybe not the Almighty though.

[The Sovereign]

7 minutes ago, TwinStorm said:

I agree with you, El seemed shortened as almost a nickname. Maybe not the Almighty though.

This WOB seems quite relevant:

Quote

atheistcanuck

The Almighty’s original name was Tanavast, yes/no?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes and no. The concept of the “Almighty” in Roshar has a lot of meanings, many of them wrong.

atheistcanuck

But the person who held the Shard Honor was originally named Tanavast?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. You wiggled it out of me. That was the name of the original holder of the Shard Honor.

General Twitter 2011 (March 20, 2011)

 

[Stark he/him]

7 hours ago, Dragon13 said:

I'm not sure what I expect his role to be, but I've been feeling more and more that El is a shortened version of a much longer name...  The one that keeps swirling around in the back of my brain is Elithanathile, who has also been called "He Who Transforms" which sounds very much to me like a Fused name.  Could it be that the Almighty wasn't human after all?

I just finished re-reading the series.  When El appeared, it was indicated that he (they?) had been stripped of their title and rhythms.  The Defeated One tried to commiserate with El over how El's title had been given to another.  Given the Defeated One's current grievances, the only person he would complain about having a new title would be everyone's favorite traitor, He Who Quiets.

 

I am pretty certain that El's original title was He Who Quiets.

[Ninth of the Night]

Lezian could have also been referring to Voice of Lights, which was given to Navani.

I could see it being either one. Obviously He Who Quiets would fit, since it has a broad definition that could match anyone with a lack of empathy and penchant for killing.

Which is why I'm leaning toward Voice of Lights. It's a more unique title, and implies greater influence. Plus there's the very slight detail of El being lit solely by a Voidlight sphere held in his hand when we first see him. Certainly not legitimate proof of anything, but with his interest in the Anti-Light (and his general bearing) it seems logical to assume he's more of a scholar than a killer.

Regardless, El's original title definitely has to be one of these two only. Although that doesn't dismiss the idea that "El" could be a nickname, that could still be true, even likely.

Clearly it's short for Elend Venture. He has returned! (Don't think in depth about this theory since it will instantly fall apart).

[Stark he/him]

I lean more to He Who Quiets.  It makes his punishment more cruel, having his Rhythms stripped away, leaving him quieted.  That level of cruelty fits Rayse.

[TwinStorm He/Him]

On the Coppermind it says his title was once He Who Quiets.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

12 hours ago, Ninth of the Night said:

Which is why I'm leaning toward Voice of Lights. It's a more unique title, and implies greater influence. Plus there's the very slight detail of El being lit solely by a Voidlight sphere held in his hand when we first see him. Certainly not legitimate proof of anything, but with his interest in the Anti-Light (and his general bearing) it seems logical to assume he's more of a scholar than a killer.

That's a cool connection, but Brandon's confirmed his old title is the one they gave to Moash:

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

In fact the original draft that I submitted to my writing group didn't yet have that scene where he go-goes. I was like "I'll get around to it eventually." They almost revolted. They're like, "WHAT? He's still alive?" I was like "No no. He will go-go. I just have to find the right way to write the scene." So they didn't actually get to read that scene with El and [Lezian].

Chaos

Definitely one of those Brandon ending scenes that are just like "Wow there's some weird stuff going on here."

FeatherWriter

So many new questions.

Brandon Sanderson

All these weird Fused who've been around way too long. The guy [El] that they gave his name [Vyre] to Moash.

Shardcast Interview (Jan. 23, 2021)

Though to be fair there's a lot of interesting parallels there too. El is a singer who admires humans, Moash is a human who admires singers. El lost his Rhythms, Moash is beginning to identify the Rhythms. El admires the strength of emotion, Moash hates its variability. Even Moash permakilling Jezrien (an immortal fellow human) could be said to be paralleled by El permakilling Lezian (an immortal fellow singer), who has an oddly similar name (I don't think there's any lore significance to their names, it's just funny).

[Njvodin]

6 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Though to be fair there's a lot of interesting parallels there too

I've never even thought about connecting these before, nice job seeing the parallels!

[coolsnow7]

On 11/11/2024 at 9:23 PM, TwinStorm said:

What do you think El's role in wat will be after he was set up as a major villain at the end of book 4? I would love to see El and the Skybreakers invading the tower as a thread during the Sanderlanche (assuming its another extended one of course), but I'm not sure if he could do that due to the Sibling's protections, though his thing about not hearing the rhythms might grant him so protection depending how the Sibling judges who are Fused or not. I doubt this will happen, but interested to hear your thoughts on El in general!

I think the starting point for El should be: why did Rayse not bring him back, but Taravangian did?

I think this is the relevant frame because a) he’s introduced after Taravangian Ascended - and more importantly, after Taravangian revised Rayse’s plans b) we have the epigraphs of him monologuing about humans to Taravangian c) we know he had a unique perspective on the Final Solution to the Human Question - so unique that he lost his title and access to Rhythms (whatever that even means). 

I’m sure we’ll get an answer to this question in due course. But I’m confident that this is the question upon which El’s relevance rests.

On 11/12/2024 at 10:45 AM, Ninth of the Night said:

seems logical to assume he's more of a scholar than a killer.

He ragdolls Lezian. I’d say he’s a killer. 

On 11/12/2024 at 10:45 AM, Ninth of the Night said:

He Who Quiets

I don’t think this is some broad “oooh he’s a scary killer” title. So far Moash’s uniqueness has been that he has “given his emotions” to Odium, and his role has been to proselytize his new way of life - in particular to Kaladin, but also to anyone else he encounters. 

Recall that El’s epigraphs were all about humans and how they have so much passion. I think it’s safe to say that the “quieting” that El did was along the same lines as Moash now.

[AquaRegia he/him]

I have no idea what El will end up doing, but I am pretty storming excited because I think it will be both terrifying and AWESOME.

[logicless.bt]

I'm hoping El has more of a minor role that mostly sets him up for the back half. A large number of villains in this series die quickly after they're introduced, so I'd like to see an overarching one

[ShadowBroker]

What if El is for Adolin's plotline? Everyone else has some pretty obvious villains ahead of them except Adolin.

[TwinStorm He/Him]

6 hours ago, ShadowBroker said:

What if El is for Adolin's plotline? Everyone else has some pretty obvious villains ahead of them except Adolin.

That'd be sick. I'm personally hoping for the Servant of Yelig-Nar to return and Adolin die stopping him from killing Yanagawn (pretty farfetched I know, but a hope) but El could be also cool. Maybe commanding the armies attacking Azimir?

[NH2316]

On 11/14/2024 at 1:04 PM, logicless.bt said:

I'm hoping El has more of a minor role that mostly sets him up for the back half. A large number of villains in this series die quickly after they're introduced, so I'd like to see an overarching one

This seems likely to me, especially without a single mention or (as far as I've noticed) allusion to El and what he's been up to so far in the preview chapters/story through end of day 2.  Agree El seems like a villain best rolled out slowly and I hope that's the case. El's introduction in RoW felt enigmatic and (because it was right at the end of the book) important in a way that makes him seem like a special villain of major importance for the longer term. 

I personally felt some parallels with Taravangian's "unmasking" at the end of WoK.  There's obviously some differences: Taravangian was already a minor character in Khabranth scenes scattered throughout the books, though in my opinion these mostly just serve to reinforce the juxtaposition of his public persona against his ultimate "revealing" as a puppet-master/villain right at the end.  The actual reveal does two things to establish this is a complex villain of major importance - 1. it shows that he has a LOT going on to influence the broader world (Szeth finds out T has his oathstone, T been behind Szeth's regicide campaign, you glimpse the horrific truth behind the death knell epigraphs that started the book, and you get foreshadowing that Dalinar is his next target), and 2. It does all this right at books' end so you know you aren't getting answers on any of this for a while, and probably some answers won't come until multiple books forward because there's simply so many questions raised in a short time.  And that's exactly what happens - Taravangian is in fact the primary overarching villain of the series so far and we get slow well-earned payoffs to the mountain of questions this breif tease at the end of the book raises.  You could maybe call this "mystery box" storytelling, though I hate to label it that***.....maybe a better description of the vibe here is that it's akin to something that's often used (sometimes well, and sometimes....not so well) in the comics/graphic novels medium, wherein a classic trope is the heroes beating the villain in the end of a story arc only for an even bigger villain to be "unmasked" as the "real" threat looming on the horizon.

El's reveal in RoW felt a bit like this to me - very sudden introduction of a character we're seemingly meant to have 10,000 questions about, and done right at the end amid a whole bunch of other stuff wrapping up.  You get a lot of interesting details on El that suggest "not-a-normal-villain" vibes, just like we did way back when with Taravangian.  Admittedly, the degree of detail is a bit lesser in degree to taravangian's reveal, but to me this makes sense: T is the clear overarching villain of the series, or at least of the first 5, and you wouldn't want to introduce El in a way that overshadows T because at least through WaT (and maybe all the way to the end of the cosmere) T is THE villain.  I also think the likelihood El is a longer-term villain has become much greater with his seemingly complete absence early in WaT (via the previews). 

Here's to compelling villains - may their mysteries and motives be paid off slowly and ultimately be well-earned.

 

***I hate to label it that because A. my opinion of "mystery box" storytelling is not great.....JJ abrams is the prototype of the Mystery Box writer and I would argue that his use/overuse of it ruined many of his screen works that started promising and ended as disjointed messes (first Lost, later and even more spectacularly the Star Wars sequel trilogy).  That said, I think that's what happens when you use the Mystery Box without a well-developed plan for pay-offs for the mysteries, whereas Brandon excels at consistently at paying off mysteries in a way that feels earned.....and B. The "Mystery Box" in the Abrams sense tends to be a lot of much more disparate mysteries ("There's an invisible monster! Wait it's also a polar bear! There's another monster that is visible and may or may not be related to the polar bear! Also there's mysterious people already on the Island! But some of these people seem like real people and other more like ghosts! Also, Timey-Wimey stuff is in play!"), rather than the sudden introductions of a lot mysteries all surrounding a single character to be explored later.  For those reasons, I think it's closer to the comics "wait there's a bigger bad!" trope, although in this case it might just be "there's another big and long-term bad" since I'm not convinced El will or should exceed taravangian (who is a compelling enough villain to be the overall antagonist all the way to cosmere's end-game, if that's where Brandon has decided he's going to go).

[TwinStorm He/Him]

Bringing this thread back to talk about El for the next four days!

I have many, many El theories after the interlude. Most of these are gut theories or just rule of cool but I wanted to tell you.

1. El bonds corrupted highspren: El fits Skybreakers but no highspren would take him. Enter corrupted highspren.

2. El is the Herald Taln replaced: he has an obsession with humans and likely at the beginning (before driven insane) wanted peace with them. It makes since why he was friends with Jezrien, who he betrayed right before the Oathpact. (this is not my theory, just evidence)

3. El will betray Odium: this is likely the most obvious, but I think El has an endgame beyond Odium's plans for him. Whether that involves reforging the Oathpact, or trying to seize the Dawnshard which may be one the Plains, who can say?

4. El will become a Herald: If Ishar reforges the Oathpact, and El, who not only wants peace on Roshar, but also to become a leader, becomes a Herald, not only will he lead the humans in future Desolations, but also see an united Roshar, as a singer Herald will make a strong case for peace.