Popular Post Pagerunner he/him Posted October 15, 2024 Popular Post Posted October 15, 2024 Well, we're less than two months away from another book, which means it's time for me to post another extremely wordy theory. I've been tooling around on this one (in one shape or another) since before Rhythm of War, so I expect this will be a little more dynamic than some of my other ones as the preview chapters keep coming out. I gave it a quick polish just before posting it, but I haven't done a deep dive into the preview chapters to address some of the stuff in there, but I don't recall reading anything that gave me pause. The following theory will discuss some content from Dragonsteel Prime, in addition to the Wind and Truth preview chapters, but not a ton. Dawnshards in Stormlight Five Quote “Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above.” --From the Poem of Ista. I have found no modern explanation of what these “Dawnshards” are. They seem ignored by scholars, though talk of them was obviously prevalent among those recording the early mythologies. Epigraph, WoK Chapter 36 This is a quote that has long puzzled me, as I’m sure it has many of you. Those of us who have been around the fandom a while remember the dearth of information on Dawnshards before the Dawnshard novella and The Sunlit Man; there were three references in The Way of Kings, zero in Rhythm of War, and then only one in Oathbringer that was basically a rehash of one of the Way of Kings’ references. The recent glut of information on them has been fantastic, but I think we’ve kind of forgotten about the first tantalizing tidbit from Way of Kings, the poem of Ista. I think I’ve figured it out, though, I think it will be relevant in Book Five, and I don’t think it’s Rysn’s Dawnshard (although there may be plenty going on on that particular front, too). The high level summary: the ex-Bondsmith Melishi took up Ishar’s Honorblade to imprison Ba-Ado-Mishram. Dawnshard Fundamentals I’m not going to fully lay out all of my views on Dawnshards, Commands, Intents, and Shardic groups here. (Maybe I’ll slug it out farther down in the thread, if anybody wants to hash it out.) But there are a few interpretations that I’m building this theory on, so I feel like I need to lay them out clearly beforehand. 1) The four Dawnshards are not the super-Shards depicted in the Shattering mural in Aimia. The mural depicts Adonalsium being broken into four chunks, and then each of those chunks being broken into four of their own, in turn, to create the sixteen Shards. But the Dawnshards existed prior to the Shattering, since they were used for the Shattering. I haven’t put together a Shard grouping proposal myself, and there may very well be a Shard group that kind of seems like Change, but… 2) Shards/Intents/Tones are contrasted, respectively, with Dawnshards/Commands/Rhythms. The Intent is what goal the Investiture is looking to accomplish, but the Command is the specific mechanism by which it is accomplished. Cultivation is an Intent that looks for things to grow and change; the Change Dawnshard is a Command that can apply Investiture to produce those changes. Quote Chaos In Dawnshard we learned that Intent and Command are two different things, whereas in Warbreaker Vasher is clearly conflating these two into just saying it's the Command. What's the difference between Intent and Command? Brandon Sanderson Intent encompasses more understanding. Command is specifically narrow. A lot of times, these things are gonna be conflated, because they basically can be. Like, if Vasher creates an awakened thing and says "go get me those keys." The Intent is: "I need the keys to get outta here. I want to be free." The Command is: "Go fetch keys." Those are two different things, but they are working toward the same goal. It is important in cosmere terms that the Intent is understood, even if sometimes the words that can speak 'em are clunky and smaller in scale by nature than the Intent. Let's say the Intent of a Shard encompasses more than the word that the Shard is described by. It's a similar thing that the Intent of a Command is often vaster than the actual words spoken. And the magic can grasp the Intent, not just the Command, depending on the magic system and how good you are at it, and things like that. The words are there to focus Intent. How about that? Shardcast Interview (Jan. 23, 2021) 3) I think the power (and danger) of the Dawnshards is that they are the four simplest possible Commands, the four broadest ways that Investiture can manifest. A Soulcaster has set conditions under which they can Change matter; a Feruchemist has very particular ways they can Change their body. Some Invested Arts, like Awakening or AonDor, are able to expand and clarify their Commands. I think Dawnshards are a souped-up version of that; if Rysn, the current Change Dawnshard, were able to Invest herself, she would be able to accomplish any magical effect she wanted, as long as it was along the lines of Change. This is a kind of like what we saw Venli doing in Rhythm of War, combining her Rhythms to make a new kind of Surgebinding; but Dawnshards have practically no limits on them. 4) In Dragonsteel Prime, Hoid’s Dawnshard is Change, and Merin’s Dawnshard is Move. How Many Dawnshards? Okay, now let’s get back to the specifics in Stormlight. Why don’t I think that the Poem of Ista is referring to Rysn’s Dawnshard? Well, because there is more than one Dawnshard on Roshar. The Poem of Ista is the only reference to a singular Dawnshard; but Honor talked about “the Dawnshards,” plural. Quote “I wish I could do more,” repeated the figure in gold. “You might be able to get him to choose a champion. He is bound by some rules. All of us are. A champion could work well for you, but it is not certain. And … without the Dawnshards … Well, I have done what I can. It is a terrible, terrible thing to leave you alone.” Honor’s memory, WoK chapter 75 But in the days leading to the Recreance, Honor was dying. When that generation of knights learned the truth, Honor did not support them. He raved, speaking of the Dawnshards, ancient weapons used to destroy the Tranquiline Halls. Honor … promised that Surgebinders would do the same to Roshar. Stormfather, OB Chapter 113 If this was all about one Dawnshard, Rysn’s Dawnshard, Honor would have been talking about “the Dawnshard,” singular. Now that we know the Change Dawnshard lets its user accomplish any magical effect related to changing, let’s look back at the Poem of Ista and identify the Dawnshard that it’s referring to. If it’s able to bind any creature, voidish or mortal, then let’s call it the Bind Dawnshard. Have we seen anything that can be “taken up” and lets you “bind” anything you want? Yes: Ishar’s Honorblade, which makes you a Bondsmith unchained. Quote But take care; Ishar’s skill as a duelist is a lesser danger. He has recovered his Honorblade. He is a Bondsmith unchained. Stormfather, RoW chapter 111 Remember, the Dawnshards were used to Shatter Adonalsium, so presumably four of the original Vessels held them and took care of them in some way or another. I think there’s a very natural alignment to Change and Cultivation, and similar with Bind and Honor. They are Commands and Intents that pair very naturally; the mechanism and the goal go hand-in-hand. So if Cultivation’s Vessel and Honor’s Vessel, pre-Shattering, held those Dawnshards, I can believe that’s why they wound up with these Shards in the first place. And then they took their Dawnshards with them to the Roshar system. Granted, there’s a wrinkle in this theory, that the Rosharan Shards held the Rosharan Dawnshards. Quote “There are songs…” Cord said. “From long ago. Of when this… Command came through the pool.” So, the Change Dawnshard came to Roshar through Cultivation’s perpendicularity. I could maybe make a case that it was Cultivation herself, bestowing the Dawnshard through the perpendicularity… but that’s not really central to the theory. The Bind Dawnshard, and a Bondsmith Unchained Let’s look at my proposed Bind Dawnshard. We know that Ishar’s powers predate the Oathpact; in fact, he was the founder of said Oathpact. Yours is the power Ishar once held. Before he was Herald of Luck, they called him Binder of Gods. He was the founder of the Oathpact. No Radiant is capable of more than you. Yours is the power of Connection, of joining men and worlds, minds and souls. Your Surges are the greatest of all, though they will be impotent if you seek to wield them for mere battle. Stormfather, OB chapter 64 He was also the founder of the Knights Radiant, and I believe this was more than just simple organization. I believe Surgebinders functioned more like the Fused (single Surge, no armor, no Blade) before he created the bond structure for that. Quote But as for Ishi’Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws. --From Words of Radiance, chapter 2, page 4 Epigraph, WoR chapter 42 Quote “One of Ishar’s Knights,” the madman whispered. His eyes narrowed. “I remember … He founded them? Yes. Several Desolations ago. No longer just talk. It hasn’t been talk for thousands of years. But … When …” Taln, WoR chapter 63 I think Ishar had the ability to fundamentally alter the magic systems of Roshar like this because he was a Dawnshard. I don’t think he’s the Dawnshard anymore; I think he managed to imbue that Dawnshard into his Honorblade. The other nine Honorblades are a sort of disguise for what Ishar’s truly holds. I think the Radiant Orders are also parallelling Ishar’s uniqueness. I don’t think they’re a true Order that uses Adhesion and Tension (which is why Dalinar’s Surge’s don’t work like the Stonewards’ or the Windrunners’). The actual tenth Order is missing, replaced by pseudo-Bind-Dawnshards. (More tangents, but I kind of suspect that at some point in the future, the Bondsmiths will be replaced by a new, true tenth Order, as the cosmere moves into more of a technological age.) The Imprisonment of Ba-Ado-Mishram To jump aside for a moment, there’s another outstanding puzzle related to the Bondsmiths: Melishi. He’s a very important figure, and we’ve slowly been learning more and more about him as the series unfolds. In Words of Radiance, we first learn the name: Quote So Melishi retired to his tent, and resolved to destroy the Voidbringers upon the next day, but that night did present a different stratagem, related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths; and being hurried, he could make no specific account of his process; it was related to the very nature of the Heralds and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address. --from Words of Radiance, chapter 30, page 18. Epigraph, WoR chapter 58. We get a little more in Oathbringer, and for a bit I thought that Melishi was Ishar himself. There was also some confusion among the community about which of the Bondsmith spren Melishi was bonded to before the Recreance, mostly because the Sibling’s retreat prior to the Recreance would mean indicate that Melishi must have bonded another of the spren. Quote Our revelation is fueled by the theory that the Unmade can perhaps be captured like ordinary spren. It would require a special prison. And Melishi. Rhythm of War is where it really gets dished out. We learn that Melishi was the Sibling’s Bondsmith, but the Sibling did retreat prior to the Recreance. This prompts the question, then: how did Melishi do it? He was no longer a Bondsmith, after all. That’s where the theory started for me, shortly after the book was released: Melishi could have used Ishar’s Honorblade. Powerful and dangerous, a Bondsmith unchained. I’ve believed that for several years. Only recently did I jump to the Dawnshard aspect of it. I’ve always recognized it was there; the less controlled your powers are, the more dangerous you can be. Dawnshards are the peak example of that, but even ordinary Surgebinders can be dangerous without the structures. But as I was reflecting on the Poem of Ista scene, I made the connection that this could be a reference to Melishi. (Which would lead to Ishar’s Blade being the Dawnshard.) I’m not sure where he’s climbing to in the account, what this temple is, where Ba-Ado-Mishram was before she was captured. But it looks pretty clear that we’ll be getting that info in Stormlight Five. The Honorblade Chip I think this is why Nightblood is in Stormlight. Yeah, yeah, Taravangian used him to kill Odium and take the Shard, but that wasn’t in the original outline of the series, that was a twist Brandon came up with while writing Book Four. I think the big reason Nightblood is there, narratively, is to destroy Ishar’s Honorblade. I don’t know if it’ll release the Dawnshard, or if it’ll destroy the Dawnshard entirely, but I think the chip is foreshadowing. The Other Dawnshard The title of this theory is plural, isn’t it? So I guess I’ve got to talk about the other Dawnshard on Roshar. Rysn’s Dawnshard, known as the Change Dawnshard. I also believe it’s Hoid’s Dawnshard, the one he’s uses to make things grow. Which also means it’s also Sigzil’s Dawnshard. And there’s going to be stuff in Stormlight Five about Sigzil’s Dawnshard: Quote Brandon Sanderson For those who are wondering, this [The Sunlit Man] does take place moderately far into the Cosmere’s future. This is not a spoiler for Stormlight 5, in that I intend it to be read before Stormlight 5. But you will find out in Stormlight 5 what caused this whole thing to happen. If it’s a spoiler, it’s not for much in the future of Stormlight. The division point will happen pretty soon here. And this is Sigzil’s story, here called Nomad. He will come out of this book with a different name. And he has a role to play in the future of the Cosmere. Secret Project #4 Reveal and Livestream (March 24, 2022) In The Sunlit Man, we learn that the Dawnshard went from Sigzil to Hoid. But in WoBs, there’s been the idea that the Dawnshard also went from Hoid to Sigzil, which I don’t recall seeing in the book. Quote Questioner Is there a reason that the Night Brigade is following Nomad, or can seem to follow him, but can't seem to follow Hoid? Brandon Sanderson Yes. They have a way of tracking who... once they find someone, they can find the chain to the next person. Able to go from Hoid, through the chain, to get to Nomad, and they're trying to find where it went after that. Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023) Octavia Escamilla When did Hoid give [Sigzil] the Dawnshard? Brandon Sanderson This is a RAFO. Brandon's Bookclub - Sunlit Man (Nov. 17, 2023) (It’s worth noting that Octavia is a Dragonsteel employee who was on the Sunlit Man bookclub video series. I could chalk either one of these up to simple misspeaking, but two of them? I think there’s some info floating around Dragonsteel HQ that’s leaking out.) So there seems to be this sequence of the Dawnshard going to Hoid, then to Sig, then back to Hoid, a bit of a shell game to disguise exactly where it is. Going all the way back to pre-Shattering times, here’s the sequence of events that I see: Hoid has the Dawnshard. Hoid loses the Dawnshard, and it’s used in the Shattering. … time passes … The Dawnshard comes to Roshar via Cultivation’s perpendicularity The lanceryn eventually get a hold of it and hide it under Akinah. The lanceryn die out, and the Sleepless take over as its guardians. Rysn gets it from Akinah. Hoid gets it from Rysn. Sigzil gets it from Hoid. The Night Brigade finds Hoid and uses Connection to learn that Sigzil is their next target. Hoid gets it back from Sigzil. This is what I think we can infer from the books and WoBs we have thus far. There’s obviously more that this Dawnshard can go through… in fact, I think Hoid is grooming another candidate to be his interim Dawnshard distraction in one of the Book Five preview readings. Quote "Listen. I think you can rise to this. Probably. Difficult though it will be. You're up for a different kind of challenge now. As am I." Wit tapped the flute. "You're going to have to learn to play music, Kaladin. Without using your breath or your lips." "Wit. I know we've been joking about being confusing. Can you try for once to be clear?" "I am trying. You'll win when you don't play music with your own breath, and when you fight without your own muscles. Play the flute, but don't. And fight, but don't." Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022) This is Hoid talking to Kaladin. I think playing music is referring to Investiture; using the Rhythms and the Tones. Invested Arts are like a soundboard; you’ve got programmed rhythms that you can’t deviate from. Having a Dawnshard is being the guy behind the drum set. You can make whatever music you like, no matter how loud or how bad it sounds. So Kal might take the Dawnshard at some point (or even turn down the Dawnshard, resulting in Hoid taking it to Sig instead as a backup plan). Although, returning to this to polish it up after the actual version has been posted… this passage has changed substantially. Instead of playing music without playing, he’s talking to Roshar, talking to the Wind. Quote “Because this is the journey, Kaladin,” Wit said softly. “The last part of it. Listen to me: I want you to practice with that flute until you make the sound return to you. Because that will mean Roshar is listening.” WaT chapter 4 So, maybe no Kaladin Dawnshard tease anymore. WoB Roundup I did a bunch of research while working on this. I’ll include everything I haven’t already cited for completion’s sake, and I’ll add comments on some of these as appropriate. Quote Curtis Could you write something about Dawnshards that we don't/won't know? Brandon One Dawnshard is different from all the rest. Words of Radiance release party (March 3, 2014) This is the one I’m using to justify the Honorblade as a Dawnshard, rather than a person as a Dawnshard like Rysn/Sigzil/Hoid. I think this has been put into an object, so anybody who holds the Honorblade becomes the Dawnshard while they’re using it. Quote Gary I was wondering if Dawnshards were created at the same time that Adonalsium was. Brandon Sanderson Dawnshards, I’ll have to RAFO that, mostly because my timeline for all the Yolen stuff, with the Adonalsium stuff, is going to depend on writing Dragonsteel. And right now, I intend those to be post-Adonalsium but pre-Shattering. But I can’t canonize that until I’ve actually written that mythology and lore. Because the original intent of the Dawnshards, when you read Dragonsteel Prime (which we’ll release with the Words of Radiance leatherbound), you will find two Dawnshards in there. And their original intent has changed a great deal as I’ve canonized things and really, really dug into building the cosmere. And you’ll see what my kind of original intent for those was. (Or at least I can talk about it.) And it’s changed since then. The way that they were in that book (and have remained so far) is that they are younger than Adonalsium. Dragonmount Zoom Call (Dec. 10, 2020) Two Dawnshards, the Hoid’s Change Dawnshard and Jerick’s Move Dawnshard. Quote gk-sudo Do we know anyone who is currently a Dawnshard other than Rysn? Brandon Sanderson Yes, you have met people who are curre– at least one who is currently a Dawnshard other than Rysn. YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022) Define “currently.” This was after we had seen previews of The Sunlit Man, which features Hoid as a Dawnshard. If I’m going to apply it to my theory, I’m going to say that Ishar in Rhythm of War is a Dawnshard, since he has his Honorblade again. Quote L0rdenglish There's going to be more dawnshard stuff in the rest of the SA right? Like I couldn't bear it if you introduce this cool as hell concept of the literal words of creation, and then I have to wait like 10 years for more dawnshard goodness to show up. So for the sake of my sanity can you just confirm that it's not gonna be another decade before we hear/see more about them? Brandon Sanderson There will be more, but not much more in the first five. Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 9, 2020) This is a little tricky, since it seems to indicate that there won’t be important Dawnshard stuff in Stormlight Five. But since then, we’ve gotten The Sunlit Man and the WoBs about how Stormlight Five will be leading up to that situation. So maybe it’s talking about Dawnshard deep lore, about creation. Ishar’s got a Dawnshard, but we’re not learning about the history of that Dawnshard. I can talk around this WoB, at least enough to keep my theory alive. Quote Forger (paraphrased) Is Nightblood a Dawnshard? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) He is not. Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023) Just to remind everyone. Quote Punzi (paraphrased) Have we seen a Dawnshard in any Cosmere book? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Yes and no. *hands RAFO card* DragonCon 2019 (Aug. 30, 2019) No idea what this means, and it’s paraphrased. Quote jurble So, Rysn's Dawnshard was totally used with Surgebinding to make the Dawncities right? E.g. the giant windbreaks in Kholinar that everyone wonders "How did they make those?" that would seem outside the power-level of Radiant soulcasting. Brandon Sanderson Let's just say this is a linguistic connection I expected people to make. Also, creation of the Dawncities (and Urithiru) is beyond the scope of what a Radiant, or even a group of them working together, could create via Soulcasting. (Though note, it's not beyond the scope of what Surgebinding itself could do.) Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 13, 2020) I think this is a clue of what the Change Dawnshard was being used for. Ishar had his Honorblade, but somebody else was the Change Dawnshard. Quote AdelRD Should we assume that Sigzil’s Dawnshard is the same that Hoid used to have? Brandon Sanderson Sigzil, at one point, held the same Dawnshard that Hoid used to have. I phrased that very intentionally. Secret Project #4 Reveal and Livestream (March 29, 2022) My sense at the time was that Brandon wasn’t going on record saying that Hoid has his Dawnshard again, but… I think that was pretty obvious from the book. It might have been an early clue that it went from Hoid to Sigzil, though? It’s not enough evidence on its own, but the other WoBs that I included are where that idea comes from. Conclusion Two Dawnshards on Roshar. The Bind Dawnshard was Ishar’s, and it is encapsulated in his Honorblade. Melishi used it to imprison Ba-Ado-Mishram and imprison the Parshendi, as recorded in the Poem of Ista. Undoing its damage and keeping Ishar from causing more damage with it will be a major plot point. The Change Dawnshard was Hoid’s before the Shattering. He’ll be taking it back from Rysn, giving it to Sigzil, and taking it back from Sigzil. This might happen during the book, or there may just be seeds of it. 24
MarcieIsForager She/They Posted October 16, 2024 Posted October 16, 2024 (edited) It would explain something ive been wondering about for a while, mainly the shardic alignment of surges basically only aligning with Honors Bondsmith and other Bondsmiths seemingly being out of place in the chart, now if they actually werent true surgebinders or at least not a true order that would explain a lot of thing. Edited October 16, 2024 by MarcieIsForager 1
Ailvara Posted October 16, 2024 Posted October 16, 2024 Wow, this is a lot. Some great points, I need to digest it though. One question - why do you think Hoid's Dawnshard is Change? It doesn't seem to tie well to its description of being directly opposed to violence. 2
coolsnow7 Posted October 16, 2024 Posted October 16, 2024 The big problem I have is your insistence that Ishar’s Blade is a Dawnshard. You have basically no evidence for this: Melishi could have captured BAM with vanilla bondsmith powers (endowed by the Blade), the way Dalinar did to Nergaoul. Anyway this was very interesting to read, the rest of the work that you did was high quality, and some of the points you’ve raised are intriguing in their own right, even if they don’t lead to this conclusion (the honorblade chipping has gotten surprisingly little attention from a plot/thematic perspective around here). And your theory about intents and commands and Dawnshards strikes me as spot on. 1
Wanguu He/Him Posted October 16, 2024 Posted October 16, 2024 Great read! My only (minor) thought is that instead of bind, perhaps the dawnshard is Connect? This seems more in line with the general nomenclature you'll find everywhere.
+Child of Hodor Posted October 16, 2024 Posted October 16, 2024 Quote he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above I've long thought this was the description of a real event that's been mangled by being passed down orally through time. I am fairly confident this is describing Urithiru If you look at the bottom right image it very much looks like a giant staircase. It wasn't built for Heralds it was built for Radiant's who were inspired by the Heralds I could see this getting confused for built for heralds. As for the Temple above, there's been two weddings conducted up there by the remnants of the god. The sky is kind of a Temple to Honor. I say all that to say I don't know if the timing works out. The Radiants abandoned Urithiru before the strike on BAM yet Melishi would need to be in Urithiru for this poem to apply to him. The Oathbringer Epigraphs for the gem archive discuss planning for the strike on BAM but not the aftermath and nothing about a Dawnshard being used. It does mention them needing Melishi and their theory of trapping BAM in a perfect gem like Dalinar did to the Thrill. Oathbringer/Epigraphs - The Coppermind - 17th Shard We know they stuck the gem in the spiritual realm which is crazy and we have no idea how they did that. They could have trapped BAM then flown Melishi back to Uirithiru to put it in the Spiritual Realm with a Dawnshard, but I don't know why they would bother going back to Urithiru. All this relies on my assumption that the poem is describing Urithiru which might not be the case. Still, I think it is Urithiru and I have a hard time placing Melishi at Urithiru during or after the strike on BAM. 2
The Sovereign Posted October 16, 2024 Posted October 16, 2024 (edited) 52 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said: say all that to say I don't know if the timing works out. The Radiants abandoned Urithiru before the strike on BAM yet Melishi would need to be in Urithiru for this poem to apply to him. The Oathbringer Epigraphs for the gem archive discuss planning for the strike on BAM but not the aftermath and nothing about a Dawnshard being used. It does mention them needing Melishi and their theory of trapping BAM in a perfect gem like Dalinar did to the Thrill. Oathbringer/Epigraphs - The Coppermind - 17th Shard While they say they needed Melishi, I suspect they actually just needed someone with a strong enough Connection and understanding of BAM to imprison her (like we saw with Dalinar and Nergaoul). The implication being that Melishi did have that Connection (or was able to forge it with his Bondsmith abilities). Edited October 16, 2024 by The Sovereign 1
Chukulem Posted October 16, 2024 Posted October 16, 2024 Regarding the changed Kaladin and Wit conversation that removes the setup for Kaladin taking up the dawnshard, I might tie it into this recent WoB regarding a change of plans for a decision that a character makes in WaT. Questioner As an aspiring author I know how your own characters can surprise you while writing. My question for you was, especially during Stormlight but for any of your books, which characters have surprised you the most by the direction they went, how they affected the plot, etc? Brandon Sanderson Excellent question! So the way I view this as an author is, I'm a heavy outliner. But I always give the characters volition. I don't know a character until I've seen through their eyes, and as I write things change. I would say Adolin is the most surprising. Adolin was not meant to be a main character. He did not have any viewpoints as I was originally planning The Stormlight Archive, and, as you can see from the books, he has a lot of them. And so Adolin is the big surprise of Stormlight. I will say, oftentimes, I was actually talking about this to some people in the line just recently, characters will reach a point of decision. And at that point the outline usually will say "have them do this." But I will have written them for months at that point to be who they are at that point and I give them the opportunity to make different decisions. And someone at the end of Wind and Truth made the opposite decision. It's not magical where I'm like "oh the character is alive", no, it's just that who I wrote them to be and how the themes of the plot progressed I realized that at that point they can't make this decision. And so I rewrote their part and revised it to have the opposite decision get made. Once Wind and Truth is out I can tell you what that is. But you will have to read it and see if you can guess who, in the outline, was making a very different decision. FanX 2024 (Sept. 26, 2024)
Pagerunner he/him Posted October 16, 2024 Author Posted October 16, 2024 15 hours ago, Ailvara said: One question - why do you think Hoid's Dawnshard is Change? It doesn't seem to tie well to its description of being directly opposed to violence. The quote from Dawnshard on the Command of the Dawnshard: Quote It was then that she grasped, in the smallest way, the nature of the Command inside her. The will of a god to remake things, to demand they be better. The power to change. I see that aligned very well with what we see of Topaz in Dragonsteel. Here's the description of his microkinesis from chapter 52, towards the end of the book: Quote That was how he healed--he caused their Physical bodies to come in alignment with their Spiritual bodies. In essence, healing and growth were both simply attempts by the body to come closer to what it knew was its perfect form. I think the four Dawnshards are four fundamental ways to manifest Investiture; all the various magic systems we see have abilities from one or more of them. I think healing, changing, growing, transforming... all of of those are variations on this Dawnshard's core Command. 5 hours ago, coolsnow7 said: The big problem I have is your insistence that Ishar’s Blade is a Dawnshard. You have basically no evidence for this: Melishi could have captured BAM with vanilla bondsmith powers (endowed by the Blade), the way Dalinar did to Nergaoul. I'm looking at it the other way around. I'm not studying Ishar's Blade and saying "hey, this looks like a Dawnshard"; I'm looking at the Dawnshard which can bind any creature voidish or mortal and saying "hey, this looks like Ishar's Blade." We know that there's was a Bind Dawnshard on Roshar at some point in the past (the Poem of Ista doesn't match stylistically to any of the other prophetic texts in Stormlight, so I think it's pretty clear it's a history), and Ishar's Blade is a very good fit. 3 hours ago, Child of Hodor said: If you look at the bottom right image it very much looks like a giant staircase. It wasn't built for Heralds it was built for Radiant's who were inspired by the Heralds I could see this getting confused for built for heralds. As for the Temple above, there's been two weddings conducted up there by the remnants of the god. The sky is kind of a Temple to Honor. My initial interpretation was that the "crafted for Heralds" had to do with taking on powers that belonged to the Heralds (like an Honorblade), but I don't think that precludes a physical meaning, as well. I like the Urithiru parallels. I think it's completely possible that Melishi did something terrible to the Spiritual Realm from the crown of Urithiru; as the Sibling's Bondsmith, it was the seat of his power, and he made extensive modifications that we saw in Rhythm of War. I think there are big narrative between Ishar, Melishi, and Dalinar; and the Wind and Truth cover, with Dalinar on top of the tower, could certainly add another level to these parallels. (I also am very worried about the unintended consequences of Dalinar's quest so far. Ishar broke Ashyn, Melishi broke the singers... what is Dalinar going to break?) 3
alder24 Posted October 17, 2024 Posted October 17, 2024 This is an interesting and well written theory, I like it, however I doubt that Ishar's Honorblade is a Dawnshard. Dawnshards are one of the most invested objects in Cosmere - in fact they seem to be more invested than Nightblood is. Nomad by just being a Dawnshard was more invested than Susebron and in another WoB Brandon slightly implied that Susebron and Nightblood might be similarly invested. Personally I doubt Nightblood is more invested than a Dawnshard - Nightblood is already full and can't fit anything more inside of him, a Dawnshard should be more invested. This means If Ishar's blade was a Dawnshard, Nightblood should be unable to chip it. The fact that it was chipped means it's something less invested than a Nightblood is, a regular Honorblade, not a Dawnshard. Spoiler College_advice12 Who is more invested, Susebron or Nomad? Brandon Sanderson Nomad- uhhhh. Oh oh, that's a hard one. Nomad was, but is no longer. So Susebron. I was gonna say Nomad, but he doesn't have the Dawnshard anymore. So not anymore, Susebron would be more invested than he would be at this point. But Nomad can feed upon Investiture, so he could overtake that threshold in the right circumstances. But not currently. Currently he can't even get himself Connected to the planet to speak the language, so. Secret Project #4 Reveal and Livestream (March 29, 2022) Spoiler Questioner I've got a list of various Cosmere bits of metal and I was wondering if you would rank them from like one to ten or just easy to difficult on how hard it would be to steelpush on them. So with one being just a regular coin, ten being like when the Lord Ruler was moving bits of glass on the floor, so like metal inside a person's body. [...] Questioner Nightblood? I imagine that being hard. Brandon Sanderson Hard, of all the things you've listed, that is going to be the hardest. Far beyond even a Sharblade. Questioner Far beyond metal inside a person? Brandon Sanderson Uh, yes. Depending on how invested the person is. Questioner If somebody was invested as much as Nightblood? Brandon Sanderson Yes, for instance the God King, right. At the end with all those Breaths. Pushing something inside of him, getting through all of that? Gonna be real hard. Average person on Scadrial? You've seen how hard that is. A drab? Much easier. [...] Salt Lake City signing (March 29, 2014) Another problem is that Ishar's Honorblade was weakened by Honor's restrictions put on Surges after humanity arrived on Roshar. If that was a Dawnshard, Honor should have been unable to restrict it at all. Honor's restrictions are now equally fading from both Dalinar's abilities and Ishar's Honorblade. Ishar is not capable of doing things he wasn't able to do before.RoW ch 111: Quote Are you all right? he asked the Stormfather. Yes. He tried to steal our bond. It should not be possible, but Honor no longer lives to enforce his laws.… [...] The powers of a Bondsmith are the powers of creation, the Stormfather said. The powers of gods, including the ability to link souls. Always before, Honor was here to guard this power, to limit it. It seems that Ishar knows how to make full use of his new freedom. Lastly, I don't think you can use a Dawnshard on its own - you need to have access to an invested art. If Ishar's Honorblade was just a Dawnshard, it wouldn't do anything, it wouldn't be able to bind, you would need to be a Surgebinder first to use it. Dawnshards are Commands, but Commands are just one necessary ingredient of Surgebinding, along with Intent and Investiture. Rysn can't use her Dawnshard at its full potential because she lacks any other ability and the Dawnshard in her is just passive. Bondsmithing still requires Stormlight to perform, you need to use Stormlight to create Connections, you need investiture to bind - without the ability to acquire Investiture, you can't use the Bind Dawnshards in the same way Bondsmiths use their powers. Anyone who holds Ishar's Honorblade will become a Bondsmith, no matter if they are Surgebinders, or some random farmer from Herdaz. Dawnshard ch 19: Quote Nikli laughed. “Mere words cannot explain. The Dawnshards are Commands, Rysn. The will of a god.” [...] “The most powerful forms of Surgebinding transcend traditional mortal understanding,” Nikli said. His body began to re-form, hordelings crawling back into place. “All their greatest applications require Intent and a Command. Demands on a level no person could ever manage alone. To make such Commands, one must have the reasoning—the breadth of understanding—of a deity. And so, the Dawnshards. The four primal Commands that created all things.” He paused. “And then eventually, they were used to undo Adonalsium itself. . . .” [...] "My kin insisted on two further terms, though. You must never bond a spren to become a Radiant.” Spoiler Mycroft_canner Did she use the command to manipulate the Sleepless? He seems pretty surprised it worked... Brandon Sanderson Rysn did not use the Dawnshard in this story, and indeed is incapable of it. Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020) On 10/16/2024 at 12:16 AM, Pagerunner said: Sigzil gets it from Hoid. The Night Brigade finds Hoid and uses Connection to learn that Sigzil is their next target. Seems like the Night Brigade never found Hoid, instead they want to find him after catching Sig, TSM ch 10: Quote He stepped closer to Wit’s projection. “If they catch me, they’ll be able to connect the Dawnshard to you. And then they’ll be on your tail.”
elihaun Posted October 17, 2024 Posted October 17, 2024 On 10/15/2024 at 6:16 PM, Pagerunner said: I think Ishar had the ability to fundamentally alter the magic systems of Roshar like this because he was a Dawnshard This part makes a lot of sense, because in Oathbringer the stormfather says that honor in his last days raved about the dawnshards, 'ancient weapons used to destroy the tranqualine halls'. It would make sense that Ishar had one of the dawn shards 1
bmcclure7 Posted October 22, 2024 Posted October 22, 2024 On 10/15/2024 at 5:16 PM, Pagerunner said: Well, we're less than two months away from another book, which means it's time for me to post another extremely wordy theory. I've been tooling around on this one (in one shape or another) since before Rhythm of War, so I expect this will be a little more dynamic than some of my other ones as the preview chapters keep coming out. I gave it a quick polish just before posting it, but I haven't done a deep dive into the preview chapters to address some of the stuff in there, but I don't recall reading anything that gave me pause. The following theory will discuss some content from Dragonsteel Prime, in addition to the Wind and Truth preview chapters, but not a ton. Dawnshards in Stormlight Five This is a quote that has long puzzled me, as I’m sure it has many of you. Those of us who have been around the fandom a while remember the dearth of information on Dawnshards before the Dawnshard novella and The Sunlit Man; there were three references in The Way of Kings, zero in Rhythm of War, and then only one in Oathbringer that was basically a rehash of one of the Way of Kings’ references. The recent glut of information on them has been fantastic, but I think we’ve kind of forgotten about the first tantalizing tidbit from Way of Kings, the poem of Ista. I think I’ve figured it out, though, I think it will be relevant in Book Five, and I don’t think it’s Rysn’s Dawnshard (although there may be plenty going on on that particular front, too). The high level summary: the ex-Bondsmith Melishi took up Ishar’s Honorblade to imprison Ba-Ado-Mishram. Dawnshard Fundamentals I’m not going to fully lay out all of my views on Dawnshards, Commands, Intents, and Shardic groups here. (Maybe I’ll slug it out farther down in the thread, if anybody wants to hash it out.) But there are a few interpretations that I’m building this theory on, so I feel like I need to lay them out clearly beforehand. 1) The four Dawnshards are not the super-Shards depicted in the Shattering mural in Aimia. The mural depicts Adonalsium being broken into four chunks, and then each of those chunks being broken into four of their own, in turn, to create the sixteen Shards. But the Dawnshards existed prior to the Shattering, since they were used for the Shattering. I haven’t put together a Shard grouping proposal myself, and there may very well be a Shard group that kind of seems like Change, but… 2) Shards/Intents/Tones are contrasted, respectively, with Dawnshards/Commands/Rhythms. The Intent is what goal the Investiture is looking to accomplish, but the Command is the specific mechanism by which it is accomplished. Cultivation is an Intent that looks for things to grow and change; the Change Dawnshard is a Command that can apply Investiture to produce those changes. 3) I think the power (and danger) of the Dawnshards is that they are the four simplest possible Commands, the four broadest ways that Investiture can manifest. A Soulcaster has set conditions under which they can Change matter; a Feruchemist has very particular ways they can Change their body. Some Invested Arts, like Awakening or AonDor, are able to expand and clarify their Commands. I think Dawnshards are a souped-up version of that; if Rysn, the current Change Dawnshard, were able to Invest herself, she would be able to accomplish any magical effect she wanted, as long as it was along the lines of Change. This is a kind of like what we saw Venli doing in Rhythm of War, combining her Rhythms to make a new kind of Surgebinding; but Dawnshards have practically no limits on them. 4) In Dragonsteel Prime, Hoid’s Dawnshard is Change, and Merin’s Dawnshard is Move. How Many Dawnshards? Okay, now let’s get back to the specifics in Stormlight. Why don’t I think that the Poem of Ista is referring to Rysn’s Dawnshard? Well, because there is more than one Dawnshard on Roshar. The Poem of Ista is the only reference to a singular Dawnshard; but Honor talked about “the Dawnshards,” plural. If this was all about one Dawnshard, Rysn’s Dawnshard, Honor would have been talking about “the Dawnshard,” singular. Now that we know the Change Dawnshard lets its user accomplish any magical effect related to changing, let’s look back at the Poem of Ista and identify the Dawnshard that it’s referring to. If it’s able to bind any creature, voidish or mortal, then let’s call it the Bind Dawnshard. Have we seen anything that can be “taken up” and lets you “bind” anything you want? Yes: Ishar’s Honorblade, which makes you a Bondsmith unchained. Remember, the Dawnshards were used to Shatter Adonalsium, so presumably four of the original Vessels held them and took care of them in some way or another. I think there’s a very natural alignment to Change and Cultivation, and similar with Bind and Honor. They are Commands and Intents that pair very naturally; the mechanism and the goal go hand-in-hand. So if Cultivation’s Vessel and Honor’s Vessel, pre-Shattering, held those Dawnshards, I can believe that’s why they wound up with these Shards in the first place. And then they took their Dawnshards with them to the Roshar system. Granted, there’s a wrinkle in this theory, that the Rosharan Shards held the Rosharan Dawnshards. So, the Change Dawnshard came to Roshar through Cultivation’s perpendicularity. I could maybe make a case that it was Cultivation herself, bestowing the Dawnshard through the perpendicularity… but that’s not really central to the theory. The Bind Dawnshard, and a Bondsmith Unchained Let’s look at my proposed Bind Dawnshard. We know that Ishar’s powers predate the Oathpact; in fact, he was the founder of said Oathpact. Yours is the power Ishar once held. Before he was Herald of Luck, they called him Binder of Gods. He was the founder of the Oathpact. No Radiant is capable of more than you. Yours is the power of Connection, of joining men and worlds, minds and souls. Your Surges are the greatest of all, though they will be impotent if you seek to wield them for mere battle. Stormfather, OB chapter 64 He was also the founder of the Knights Radiant, and I believe this was more than just simple organization. I believe Surgebinders functioned more like the Fused (single Surge, no armor, no Blade) before he created the bond structure for that. I think Ishar had the ability to fundamentally alter the magic systems of Roshar like this because he was a Dawnshard. I don’t think he’s the Dawnshard anymore; I think he managed to imbue that Dawnshard into his Honorblade. The other nine Honorblades are a sort of disguise for what Ishar’s truly holds. I think the Radiant Orders are also parallelling Ishar’s uniqueness. I don’t think they’re a true Order that uses Adhesion and Tension (which is why Dalinar’s Surge’s don’t work like the Stonewards’ or the Windrunners’). The actual tenth Order is missing, replaced by pseudo-Bind-Dawnshards. (More tangents, but I kind of suspect that at some point in the future, the Bondsmiths will be replaced by a new, true tenth Order, as the cosmere moves into more of a technological age.) The Imprisonment of Ba-Ado-Mishram To jump aside for a moment, there’s another outstanding puzzle related to the Bondsmiths: Melishi. He’s a very important figure, and we’ve slowly been learning more and more about him as the series unfolds. In Words of Radiance, we first learn the name: We get a little more in Oathbringer, and for a bit I thought that Melishi was Ishar himself. There was also some confusion among the community about which of the Bondsmith spren Melishi was bonded to before the Recreance, mostly because the Sibling’s retreat prior to the Recreance would mean indicate that Melishi must have bonded another of the spren. Rhythm of War is where it really gets dished out. We learn that Melishi was the Sibling’s Bondsmith, but the Sibling did retreat prior to the Recreance. This prompts the question, then: how did Melishi do it? He was no longer a Bondsmith, after all. That’s where the theory started for me, shortly after the book was released: Melishi could have used Ishar’s Honorblade. Powerful and dangerous, a Bondsmith unchained. I’ve believed that for several years. Only recently did I jump to the Dawnshard aspect of it. I’ve always recognized it was there; the less controlled your powers are, the more dangerous you can be. Dawnshards are the peak example of that, but even ordinary Surgebinders can be dangerous without the structures. But as I was reflecting on the Poem of Ista scene, I made the connection that this could be a reference to Melishi. (Which would lead to Ishar’s Blade being the Dawnshard.) I’m not sure where he’s climbing to in the account, what this temple is, where Ba-Ado-Mishram was before she was captured. But it looks pretty clear that we’ll be getting that info in Stormlight Five. The Honorblade Chip I think this is why Nightblood is in Stormlight. Yeah, yeah, Taravangian used him to kill Odium and take the Shard, but that wasn’t in the original outline of the series, that was a twist Brandon came up with while writing Book Four. I think the big reason Nightblood is there, narratively, is to destroy Ishar’s Honorblade. I don’t know if it’ll release the Dawnshard, or if it’ll destroy the Dawnshard entirely, but I think the chip is foreshadowing. The Other Dawnshard The title of this theory is plural, isn’t it? So I guess I’ve got to talk about the other Dawnshard on Roshar. Rysn’s Dawnshard, known as the Change Dawnshard. I also believe it’s Hoid’s Dawnshard, the one he’s uses to make things grow. Which also means it’s also Sigzil’s Dawnshard. And there’s going to be stuff in Stormlight Five about Sigzil’s Dawnshard: In The Sunlit Man, we learn that the Dawnshard went from Sigzil to Hoid. But in WoBs, there’s been the idea that the Dawnshard also went from Hoid to Sigzil, which I don’t recall seeing in the book. (It’s worth noting that Octavia is a Dragonsteel employee who was on the Sunlit Man bookclub video series. I could chalk either one of these up to simple misspeaking, but two of them? I think there’s some info floating around Dragonsteel HQ that’s leaking out.) So there seems to be this sequence of the Dawnshard going to Hoid, then to Sig, then back to Hoid, a bit of a shell game to disguise exactly where it is. Going all the way back to pre-Shattering times, here’s the sequence of events that I see: Hoid has the Dawnshard. Hoid loses the Dawnshard, and it’s used in the Shattering. … time passes … The Dawnshard comes to Roshar via Cultivation’s perpendicularity The lanceryn eventually get a hold of it and hide it under Akinah. The lanceryn die out, and the Sleepless take over as its guardians. Rysn gets it from Akinah. Hoid gets it from Rysn. Sigzil gets it from Hoid. The Night Brigade finds Hoid and uses Connection to learn that Sigzil is their next target. Hoid gets it back from Sigzil. This is what I think we can infer from the books and WoBs we have thus far. There’s obviously more that this Dawnshard can go through… in fact, I think Hoid is grooming another candidate to be his interim Dawnshard distraction in one of the Book Five preview readings. This is Hoid talking to Kaladin. I think playing music is referring to Investiture; using the Rhythms and the Tones. Invested Arts are like a soundboard; you’ve got programmed rhythms that you can’t deviate from. Having a Dawnshard is being the guy behind the drum set. You can make whatever music you like, no matter how loud or how bad it sounds. So Kal might take the Dawnshard at some point (or even turn down the Dawnshard, resulting in Hoid taking it to Sig instead as a backup plan). Although, returning to this to polish it up after the actual version has been posted… this passage has changed substantially. Instead of playing music without playing, he’s talking to Roshar, talking to the Wind. So, maybe no Kaladin Dawnshard tease anymore. WoB Roundup I did a bunch of research while working on this. I’ll include everything I haven’t already cited for completion’s sake, and I’ll add comments on some of these as appropriate. This is the one I’m using to justify the Honorblade as a Dawnshard, rather than a person as a Dawnshard like Rysn/Sigzil/Hoid. I think this has been put into an object, so anybody who holds the Honorblade becomes the Dawnshard while they’re using it. Two Dawnshards, the Hoid’s Change Dawnshard and Jerick’s Move Dawnshard. Define “currently.” This was after we had seen previews of The Sunlit Man, which features Hoid as a Dawnshard. If I’m going to apply it to my theory, I’m going to say that Ishar in Rhythm of War is a Dawnshard, since he has his Honorblade again. This is a little tricky, since it seems to indicate that there won’t be important Dawnshard stuff in Stormlight Five. But since then, we’ve gotten The Sunlit Man and the WoBs about how Stormlight Five will be leading up to that situation. So maybe it’s talking about Dawnshard deep lore, about creation. Ishar’s got a Dawnshard, but we’re not learning about the history of that Dawnshard. I can talk around this WoB, at least enough to keep my theory alive. Just to remind everyone. No idea what this means, and it’s paraphrased. I think this is a clue of what the Change Dawnshard was being used for. Ishar had his Honorblade, but somebody else was the Change Dawnshard. My sense at the time was that Brandon wasn’t going on record saying that Hoid has his Dawnshard again, but… I think that was pretty obvious from the book. It might have been an early clue that it went from Hoid to Sigzil, though? It’s not enough evidence on its own, but the other WoBs that I included are where that idea comes from. Conclusion Two Dawnshards on Roshar. The Bind Dawnshard was Ishar’s, and it is encapsulated in his Honorblade. Melishi used it to imprison Ba-Ado-Mishram and imprison the Parshendi, as recorded in the Poem of Ista. Undoing its damage and keeping Ishar from causing more damage with it will be a major plot point. The Change Dawnshard was Hoid’s before the Shattering. He’ll be taking it back from Rysn, giving it to Sigzil, and taking it back from Sigzil. This might happen during the book, or there may just be seeds of it. I think that dalinar has the dawn shard unity after his death sigzel will pick it up
BinarySecond Posted October 23, 2024 Posted October 23, 2024 Not with you on the multiple Dawnshards. It's a quirk of English to refer to things by plural like that if you were referring to a general set of things. Not for all words but it would work that way for the word Dawnshard/s I think.
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